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Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by couture's gallery, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. couture's gallery

    couture's gallery PFG, Picture Framing God

    thats the profits for the QUARTER for EXXON......almost as much as mine...how "bout you, was your profit last quarter near that????

    Glad I own oil stock and lease land to Exxon for drilling.
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  2. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm just a little shy of that. I wonder how much gas they sell in a quarter?
  3. Warren Tucker

    Warren Tucker MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    And that's what percentage of Exxon's total capital investment? Exxon's profit is smaller compared to its investment that a slew of companies we don't bother to complain about. Also, what has Exxon's stock done over a two year period; what has been the return to investors? If I really thought Exxon was getting extraordinary returns, I'd buy the stock and participate. That's an option open to anyone. It is, after all, a publicly traded company, and is owned by several million Americans and others who deserve a return on the risk they assumed when they bought the stock.
  4. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well that percentage is what I was wondering about.

    I found a site "how stuff works" that says that we consume 20 mil barrels a day. We get about 20 gallons of gas from a barrel. In a year we use about 146 billions of gas. I realize that it's not all exxon but when you look at their proffits vs. how much product they are moving, its not quite as shocking.

    However 11.7b in a quarter is 3.9 bil a month and 130mil a day 5.4mil an hour (for 24 hours) $90,277 a minute and $1,504 a second.
  5. FrameMakers

    FrameMakers PFG, Picture Framing God

    So where can I sign up for a minute or two.
  6. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    I saw that on the news last night and was a little sickened by it for sure.
  7. Jack Flynn

    Jack Flynn CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    From CNNMoney.com, for the same quarter: "Worldwide, the company paid $10.5 billion in income taxes in the second quarter, $9.5 billion in sales taxes, and over $12 billion in what it called "other taxes."

    Its a global business, with global numbers.
  8. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    No doubt about that Jack, but man 11.7 billion of pure gravy after all that has been deducted...............I guess since we are feeling the pinch I assumed the oil companies might be too. I understand they are there to make money but yikes.
  9. FrameMakers

    FrameMakers PFG, Picture Framing God

    Jack, Exxon did not pay sales tax, they only collect it. We paid that sales tax.
  10. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Setting a one quarter profit record is not exactly 'feeling a pinch'.

    We all need to be in a business that people have no other choice but to buy.
  11. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The oil companies have been making record profits for the last few years. At the same time, they claim to lack funds to drill domestically. Guess paying share holders is more important.
  12. Jack Flynn

    Jack Flynn CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Dave, you are right, they just collect the sales tax, then turn around and pay it to whichever jurisdiction is owed the money.

    My point is all the numbers associated with a global industry in such sky high demand will be huge, and that includes profit. It is a function of the scale of the industry.

    Therefore, any news stories or reactions to them that focus largely on the profits and the fact that they are "too high" or "obscene" or "unfair" address the subject incompletely. (Not suggesting you said that....).
  13. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    They have plenty of funds for drilling where a reasonable rate of return can be gained. Your friends should quit blocking them. Their claim that they are not interested in drilling where cost vs. return doesn't make sense should not be construed as "lack of funds".
  14. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Nobody is blocking them Pat. They have thousands of acres they could be drilling on but aren't. We've had this discussion before, several times. There is gas and oil on those lands. They aren't drilling because flooding the market with more oil and gas would lower their profits.
  15. couture's gallery

    couture's gallery PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well, these are interesting responses. in the last oil "crunch" in the 70's the "supposed" shortage kept oil prices up. Our old car club had a member who owned a gas station, and of course we toured weekends in our old cars. While people waited in line for rationed gas he confided that even though he was told to limit gas and run out of supply, his tanks were full....we filled all of old cars for the weekend trips after he closed on Fri night....he had no choice to go along with the "shortage" or lose his franchise.
    At the same time we had to cap a well we owned ( with partners) in Oil City , La. because we couldn't get a buyer for the oil that would give us a profit, the well was a great producer but we lost more money the more we produced , even though there was a "shortage". .The maintenance on the well ( a must to keep it viable) was expensive and we finally had to bankrupt the corp we had set up to own the wells.

    With 11.7 Billion PROFIT something seems off to me ( remember ..this is profit, after all of the expenses mentioned in the threads) something is not kosher somewhere.
  16. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Pelosi not blocking? Huh? You're right - we've had these discussions - again, it's about cost vs. yield - I'm glad you're the expert on available oil - the House Democrat caucus certainly is not.
  17. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I've been doing a DRIP stock purchase plan with Exxon for years. It's been a nice stock to own.

    I make a little profit on the stock each month, then each time I fill up my Tahoe it takes about $70.00 dollars,
    so I give back any stock profits to Exxon. ;)
  18. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    What we need is a president who will insist that every dividend from corporations that is paid to it's greedy stockholders, be divided in half, with the other half going to poor Americans who do not own stock.

    This could be administered by a new federal bureaucracy that would be set up to not only make sure that everyone in America benefits from the rich peoples greed, but would also give over a million hard working Americans a chance at a federal job. The cost of this new bureaucracy would be paid for by all American business's, large and small.

    It is the only fair way to equalize the American economy. Just because some Americans do not want to work, invest, or save money, does not mean that they shouldn't be able to enjoy the American dream, like all those greedy rich people.

    That brings me to another issue, all those fancy country clubs and yacht clubs all over the country. It should be law that if you can afford to join one of these, you should also be able to afford membership for a poor person. This would give every person in America a fair chance at rubbing shoulders and networking with the influential and powerful in this great country of ours...

    The point of all this is for you to consider the fact that corporations are supposed to make money, that is their job, it's what they do. Why should anyone care if a corporation makes an excessive profit or not. What if every corporation in America had excessive loss's? Mainly though, if you do not own stock in a corporation, how is that any business of yours? Unless of course you are one of the people who believes in the first part of this post.

  19. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Holy COW! I hope they start taking OUR money at the same time they try to take my guns so we can have both fights at the same time.
  20. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    Jay, you posted before I was finished. I have lost more than a few lengthy posts, so I started saving them to the forum and then editing them to finish them.

  21. dougj

    dougj SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    All the executives making the BIG bucks should be paying us.
    If it was not for us they might be framers.
  22. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    JRB, Jay has trouble recognizing sarcasm. You should have used green ink!
  23. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It isn't the profit I have trouble with, it's the double talk. It's making a huge profit and then claiming it would cost too much to do the exploration on the lands they already have under lease, so give us more leases (which they will probably then say cost too much to explore, so we aren't going to drill on them anyway).
  24. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    How much of the profit is paid out to shareholders?

    Who are the shareholders?
  25. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm a shareholder of Exxon Mobil, I've got fifty three shares. I just feel like I'm a rich greedy stockholder, it's just an awful feeling.

  26. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Since John owns part of that company, it should have been his responsibility to clean up the mess they made years ago.

    Maybe that should have been green.
  27. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The problem is that you are continually basing your argument on a patently false Democrat talking point. Oil men are better qualified than Pelosi to decide whether to drill on any given lease. (Leases they are paying for that expire if unused under their current terms.)
  28. hangupsgallery

    hangupsgallery MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    So who decides?

    Wow, you want to leave this up to the president?

    Let's bring this a little closer to home.... There are a number of framers here on the Grumble who are doing quite well, some doing extremely well. Then, there are many who, for whatever the circumstances are struggling to make ends meet. So let's pick an arbitrary number. If your profits exceed $$$$ then we will divide that in half and distribute half to the "poor American framers" who are not making it at this time.

    Yes, this is a little far fetched as an example but I think you can see immediately that this system would go over like a lead balloon. Who decides who gets what and how much of who's profit....the President?

    By the way, many of those "greedy stockholders" are hard working folks like you and me, just looking for a way to save some money for retirement. Are they obligated to give up half of their investment also?
  29. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    LOL, relax Steve, John is being sarcastic!!
  30. hangupsgallery

    hangupsgallery MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I was hoping that was the case, however, there is a mindset out there that thinks this should be the solution. Starting with our friend Mr Obama. :)
  31. Peter Ackerman

    Peter Ackerman CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Here is what we here call the rub: The difference between profits and profit margin. What is your profit margin? At Exxon it about 10% and they pay enormous taxes as well, somewhere in the area of 67 Billion. That is with a B. Though I too hate to pay $4.00 for gas, I do not see this as a windfall. They also spend great amounts of money on exploration and research. By the way most of the stock, about 98% is owned by people like me and you. Should we tax the people like LG Electronics who had a 505% increase in revenues last year? No just the evil oil companies, as they are easy targets. Check out this article in the Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121780636275808495.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooksare easy targets.
  32. Mecianne

    Mecianne SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Politicians and the media use the oil companies as their big bad wolf. When we pump 80 bucks worth of gas to fill up our tank and immediately hear on the radio that Big Oil is making almost a hundred grand a minute, you're dang right we are gonna be mad at them. Big Oil isn't the reason gas is high, though. They don't set the prices.

    Why don't people raise a big fuss about OPEC? You hardly ever, ever hear about them on the news. Not in comparison to those HUGE profits reaped by Big Oil at the little people's expense.

    Besides, as business owners, we shouldn't look at profit as evil.
  33. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    There is a sizeable number of federal legislators (and our mainstream media, too) who will never support any measures that would add to the world oil supply, especially if it involves more US production. They simply do not want us to use oil. Period.

    They see this as a golden opportunity to do two things, at least:

    1. Force the American public to accept their agenda in support of alternative energy sources, mostly wind and solar. Relying on electricity for transportation would backfire, though, because we would quickly run short of that, and then the nuclear power plants would become an issue again.

    2. Vilify the current administration. Responsible people -- including many of the greenies -- know the oil prices are up because the world demand is up. American demand is down, thanks to desperate drivers who can't afford to drive as much as before. But that has not affected prices much, because China, India, and some other emerging industrial nations are buying up the world supply.

    This isn't just about American motor fuel. It is about the world demand for oil, versus the world supply of oil.

    If American oil companies were allowed to drill where they want and to produce what they want, my guess is most of the added capacity would be sold off to other countries. In a nutshell, Americans don't need more oil, we need cheaper oil. The rest of the world needs more oil, and they will pay our prices for it.

    Far too many deceptions are being perpetrated in this mess.
  34. rsee

    rsee CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    The emporer has no clothes

    Why isn't anyone talking about the REAL problem with inflation? That's REALLY what we're talking about. I'm not going left or right here (in this paragraph), but the problem is that the dollar's value has been eroded. Why is that?? Because we're spending, spending, spending on a war that was supposed to fund itself (anyone remember Field Marshal Von Rumsfield?), we've given tax breaks and more tax breaks (to corporations, to wealthy Americans, and to a lesser extent, I think I vaguely remember my $600.00)....all at a time when we're racking up record debt!! Tax and spend (I think) is bad, but we've been practicing "don't tax and spend", which is worse - - - and it's been happening for the past 7 yrs.

    If the dollar were worth more, this wouldn't be an issue.
    As to MARGIN, keep in mind all these profits are after all the write offs, including leases, R & D, etc. why would anyone want to defend the oil companies. They get breaks that you and I will never get. It's like WalMart or Cabela's, they have the clout to get time with legislators, and influence legislation-it gives them an unfair advantage over other unfair businesses and when it affects regular people, it's a civilized society that tries to fix that. For people who believe in creationism, it seems ironic that the far right would love to see Darwinism in action on the economic front (at the same time demanding that those peasants quit having abortions). If those pesky poor whiners would just quit wasting our resources and breathing our air - oh wait, but then who will pick your lettuce? Who will sew your clothes? Who will keep our restaurants sanitary? Do you think those folks are ready to pay what any of us would want to work for??
    Let them eat cake, huh? I'm willing to bet if any of you defending the oil company and any large corporation that has received some of our countries corporate welfare were making $8.00/hr (think of it, that's $320.00/wk before taxes), you'd see things a little differently. Whatever happened to "compassionate conservatives"? Oh, yeah that's right, it was just another Orwellian Speak.

    Ron C.
  35. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Ron, would you care to compare your actual Federal income tax as a percentage of your total income to the Federal income tax rate paid by stockholders of oil companies - Corporate income tax plus Dividend tax rate paid by even the poorest stockholders?
  36. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I have no problem with Exxon make huge profits. I own a little Exxon stock, so more profits means the stock price goes up. :D

    Also, I have no problem with offshore drilling or drilling in Anwar in Alaska, if they only sell the oil to US citizens.
    All the oil being drilled now goes on the international market and is gobbled up by China and India.
    If the oil companies want to drill off the east coast of the US, make them only sell the oil to America.
  37. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    Judging from the article that Peter gave us a link to, I would say that if the government got sixty seven BILLION dollars from Exxon Mobil, and Exxon Mobil got ten BILLION, it seems to me, that we the people are doing just fine with the gas prices of today.

    We can rest assured that the government will spend it's "fair share" of Exxon Mobil's profits very carefully, watching every penny, for our benefit.

    What about that ten billion that Exxon Mobil earned? It is obvious that it will be recklessly distributed to all it's greedy, rich stockholders, and will also be foolishly spent on research and development projects.

    It is clear that ALL business profits should be given to our government just to insure that it will not be wasted.

  38. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bill, it doesn't matter where the oil goes - more production will lower prices and Domestic production will direct the money here instead of the Saudis and Chavez.
  39. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    That is the way they do it in China.
  40. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    See, I told you, it works better that way. I know you have all seen the photos of the happy successful Chinese factory workers, smiling and whistling on their way to and from work. It's because their government is taking all the profits and carefully spending it for their benefit. No fat, greedy stockholders in China, nope, non of that going on there. Just happy government employees, doing their job for the people.

    China, the workers utopia!

  41. couture's gallery

    couture's gallery PFG, Picture Framing God

    The large problem is that we are now in a world economy the U.S. is not prepared to participate because our politicians in the past have depleted our manufacturing base thru things like NAFTA etc..sending all of manufacturing of products to Mexico, China, India et al..a country cannot remain strong financially unless it produces something..the information age and service sector will not suffice to kep us financially viable in the world economy..we are a country of consumers rather than a country of producers...and with little to produce we have little to sell so the result has to be a weakening of our economy and our status in the world. Oil will be consumed worldwide, thence the demand will be worldwide..and the countries that produce durable goods wil
    be strong enough to pay the going rate based on demand, we will not be able to do so......my 2.5 cents worth
  42. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    It might lower the price a bit, but if it goes on the international market, OPEC could just lower production to offset any new glut of oil on the international market.

    Now if any new oil pumped in US waters off the east coast or in Alaska only went to the US market, that might make a real dent in our consumption of foreign oil.
    Why not mandate any new drilling leases only go to markets in the US, and not the international market?

    Exxon is only in the top 20 largest oil companies. Most of the top 5-10 oil companies are owned by foreign countries like Venezuela, and middle eastern dictatorships.
    Because of the foreign ownership of the oil companies, we are transferring 700 billion dollars a year to foreign countries.
    It's the biggest transfer of wealth from one country to another in the history of the world.
  43. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Actually NAFTA is relatively new, and NAFTA by the way, has nothing to do with India, China or other countries (it's North American Free Trade Agreement and involves Canada, US and Mexico).

    Way before NAFTA, US companies were busy exporting jobs and factories to lots of other cheaper nations.
  44. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    This pretty much sums up my feelings on the direction we are going. The only truly viable jobs left in this country are either government or working for companies who's main customer is the government. Granted there continues to be millions of other work opportunities, but for the average educated, they are rapidly disappearing or are not paying a livable wage.

    One of the largest growing careers seems to be standing at intersections with please help cardboard signs. It's truly a great opportunity for millions of Americans. Outdoor work, no dress code, good wages, no taxes, don't hafta work when it rains. America on the move!

  45. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That has worked for OPEC in the past, because they had virtually no competition. But everything changes when a competing producer (us) comes into the picture, that could offset their reduced output and maintain a balance in world supply. In that situation OPEC would only be giving away business.

    So, cutting OPEC production would only serve to make US oil more attractive on the world market -- if there were enough US oil production to matter.
  46. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    You don't seem to get it. Oil is fungible. It doesn't matter where it goes. What matters is where the money goes. All of the nonsensical restrictions on US Domestic production serve only to prolong our difficulties, as has been emphasized in the current price crisis. The ecologically sane care with which American companies explore for oil and gas is not matched elsewhere in the world.

    Those worshiping at the altar of the false God of "Carbo" Warming have done enough damage. There are no short term replacements for oil and natural gas to fuel our transportation system. Hydrogen is a myth - so far it takes more energy to make it than it yields. Alcohol fuel is beginning to destroy our food production infrastructure. Our electicity grid is ill equipped to generate the energy to run our cars. Nuclear power and wind will eventually help. I'm sure that someday there will be other solutions and I believe that the current price situation will drive more conservation. But, it will take some time before the current crop of vehicles phase through the system.

    Refusal to develop more oil and gas reserves, "profit" taxes, and cap in trade taxes will only serve to crush our relatively vibrant economy. I can't believe that the small business people that participate in this forum really want that.
  47. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes, according to T. Boone Pickens in his TV ads, it is the biggest transfer of wealth in history.

    But we are not buying oil from those sources because the companies are foreign-owned, we are buying it because we need it and they have it to sell.

    So, Surferbill, are you suggesting that if we produced more of our own oil, we could reduce that $700 billion transfer of American wealth? I agree. Have you told Nancy Pelosi how you feel about this? She and her Congressional minions need to hear it from all of us.

    I agree with T. Boone Pickens, too. The need to produce more of our own oil is urgent and essential to our nation's survival. But more oil is only a partial solution to our problem. Alternative energy sources are the other partial solutions, equally important and equally urgent.

    Congress says no more oil, no more nuclear. That government intervention is on the negative side, and it is hurting all of us daily. What is Congress doing on the positive side of this "crisis"?

    If Congress is dead-set against the energy sources we know, love, want, and need, then why is Congress not mandating and financing faster development of the alternative sources? Why does Harry Reid not have a windmill in his backyard? Why did Ted Kennedy stop the windmill farm off the Massachusetts shore?

    Wind, solar, and biofuels are being developed in the private sector as fast as consumer demand dictates, which is historically fickle. Is it time for the Federal Government to take over our energy industries and tell us what energy sources we may and may not use? I hope not.
  48. ahohen1

    ahohen1 In Corner

    I always tank up my vehicle BEFORE i run out, not after. The government will not start putting money into solar, wind, etc. until they "run out of gas"... it will then be too late. I call our government a bunch of garbage with a heartbeat! :nuts:
  49. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    If our government did not create problems, what would they have to "fix". They would have nothing to do but sit around and dream up new legislation in order to help us live better lives, right?

    Surprise problems, you know, the stuff God creates, does not go over too well with government. Although they conduct numerous practice drills, that they proudly show us on the evening news, to handle every situation, it seems when the actual emergency arises, they can only bring in their army of excuse and spin experts.

    Actually running out of fuel, would probably fall in the "surprise" category, much like global warming. Our government will have no clue about it in advance. The spin experts will blame it on everyone except the ones in their own branch of government.

    The one standing, all important, unwritten rule when you are a government employee is a simple one: It is NEVER your fault!

  50. LouCocce

    LouCocce Grumbler in Training


    Lou Dobbs CNN had a Senator recently who said that one of the conditions on any OffShore drilling (including in the Gulf right now) is that the oil has to be sold in the US only.

    If that is true - offshore drilling will have an effect on our importing from foriegn sources. We can become energy independent - I watched T Boone Pickens on CSPAN explaining his plan to Senate Committee. It makes sense and incorporates Wind,Solar as well as Natural Gas and Oil.
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