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A Matter of Trust

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
I have been privately taken to task for an "unprofessional" post re: Fletcher's discontinuation of the distribution of a line of CMC's.

Perhaps my post would have been better suited for this forum and not the general forum and I apologize to those offended. I was not trying to stir up trouble but to invite discussion on the actions/reactions of a company.

And I am a big fan of Fletcher but I am troubled by some of their decisions-

I simply asked that after discontinuing their first machine, and then discontinuing the distribution a another line of machines, would that fact trouble someone enough that they would reconsider buying a similar machine (or anything) from the company if they offered a new line?

I think it goes more to the issue of credibililty of the company and I think it is a fair question.

Do the actions of the company cause one to be less trusting?

If we removed the name of the company and only focus on the action would the comments be any different?
 
Sponsor Wanted

Kirstie

PFG, Picture Framing God
I was curious so I asked Jeff (husband and partner) this question. He said that this issue would make him reconsider buying anything from the company. We have had problems with the discontinuance of replacement wall cutter parts in the past. The company's response was to advise us to buy a new wall cutter.

Frame Square, Print Mount, Casesse, and Morso, have been more helpful with replacement parts for discontinued models. We have also had good luck with Wizard, but our track record with them is short term so far. We have had a few problems, but they have immediately responded with parts sent overnight. They even replaced our whole CMC shortly after we bought it.

We want ongoing support from a company when we buy a piece of expensive equipment. Changes in ownership and distribution are a cause for concern, but it's hard to second guess where a company will be in the future. One can only look at past performance.

The Grumble is a forum for back and forth exchange, both in the business forum and the main forum. We don't see anything inappropriate about your comments, and if I remember correctly, they engendered a frank discussion regarding the company and gave the company and its representatives an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings.
 

EllenAtHowards

PFG, Picture Framing God
When Fletcher discontinued their CMC, I thought "Who would think a company like Fletcher would do such a thing?"

When I heard that Fletcher will no longer distribute Valiani, my first thought was "AGAIN?" [and YES I understand that it isn't the same... but this was my FIRST reaction]

Now, I don't even have a dog in this fight, as I am a Wizard Woman through and through, but it surprised me both times.
 

wpfay

Angry Badger
I guess it's a calculated risk when a lot of what Fletcher does is to re-brand existing machinery...Pilm underpinners, Attach-EZ, Viliani CNC...
But I suppose if they want to be perceived as the manufacturer, then the misperception can turn to bite them.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I sure wasn't offended, and thank you for bringing it up. Fletcher is located 10 minutes from my home in Connecticut, and I have friends who work there, so I'd like to see them survive, but I think their future is questionable. Looking at them objectively, there is good and bad as with most companies.

The truth is, Fletcher has had a horrible track record for developing products ever since that horrible disaster where they tried to turn a point driver into v-nailer.

The FT6100 CMC was a great product, but overengineered to the point that it weighed so much, and cost so much to manufacture, that it wasn't profitable. To their credit, they did continue to support it, but its resale value dropped tremendously once it became a dead mat cutter walking.

Again, for clarification, Valiani decided to cut out the middle man, Flecther to my knowledge did not initiate this. I'm sure the Valiani move caught them somewhat by surprise and also left them in a bind. When you look at who buys Fletcher's two major products, manual mat cutters and multi-material cutters - frameshops and hardware stores - their customer base has shrunk considerably.

Ironically, it could be a bad move for Valliani also, if they are unable to build a support network, or if the market for CMCs has dried up a bit. Also, Valliani had been selling products in the U.S. for years with little success until Fletcher became its sales arm. Were framers buying because of the product, or because of Fletcher's name and reputation. We'll see what happens.

As for Fletcher-Terry, it could be the IBM of the industry, but it has grown stale. The industry has forgiven it's past sins with both the FT6100 and the v-nailers, but the industry's tolerance and trust may be wearing thin. It needs new direction and some fresh creativity. It's reputation for customer service was always top notch, but it now has little to sell and few customers to sell to. IBM went through a similar transition when its PC was cloned and being sold for half the price. Fletcher-Terry needs to reinvent itself in a similar fashion.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Can I ask what in your original post was "unprofessional?"

It seemed well directed and a reasonable question.

Of course, the subject had been hammered at already, but that happens all the time here.

So, what did the emailer think was "unprofessional" about your post?
 

Jake7

Grumbler
No Problem Here

I just took delivery of a new MatPro 150i from Fletcher two days ago. I saw the Valiani CMC at a recent show last week and actually spoke with Nico Valiani and Chris Heffter, the new North American Sales mgr.. Although getting the CMC from Valiani was VERY tempting, Fletcher is offering a nice ($2,000) discount off their remaining stock of CMC's. The Valiani's CMC's are on the "water" with an estimated delivery the first week of May. The new Valiani machines look very cool and Chris Heffter is a great guy, but I couldn't wait...

I am not concerned in the least about the warranty or parts for the machine with Valiani now having a North American presence. I plan on purchasing heads and accessories from them when they become available.

My observations regarding the MatPro 150i is this machine is a "piece of goods." It arrived in great shape and I was up and running in less than two hours. I had a couple of questions and left a voice mail at 4:35pm est Friday. The guy from Fletcher called me back in 10 minutes before they closed for the weekend! The "fit and finish" is great. I was impressed with the thick gauge of steel used for the stand. Valiani could have easily cut corners there (no pun intended) but they didn't, and the rest of the machine appears to be built the same way - robust.

That's my $.02
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Hey Paul,
I think FT is the antithesis of IBM in that IBM innovates, creates and let's their products die a slow quiet death. FT finds a good product and sells it till the market starts to dry, then they find the next product.

DonMar is still "working" the CMCs for Valiani. I just got a flyer from DM inviting me to come down and check out the machine, so Valiani should do ok with the machine in the states. If they decide to leave the US after a time i still think DM will be supporting the line.


As to IBM, in 96 I was looking for a cordless option for my laptop's modem. I could find nothing. Then one day on the back rack at a Circuit City in Hartford I find IBM's cordless modem on a discontinued rack. For the customer with a disability I was buying it for it was a godsend, it would have sold like hotcakes if anyone else had made it, but IBM likes to develop, they don't sell. Also the 96 olympics remember the guy on the steps checking his stocks on his eyeglasses? MicroOptical Corp makes a VGA screen that sits on the lens of your glasses, great video and really cool technology! CellComputing, now a part of Fujitsu makes CPU modules then fit in your pocket. IBM married the two, showed them off and deserted it. FT wouldn't do that! They would have sold 1000's first, then when the tech past it by they would either innovate or move on. I would have bought that setup for my customers, but with no institutional support they would have been SOOL.

IBM bummed me out in my old profession. They were the ones I would look to for the coolest new stuff, but it never went the final step to production, revision and sale. FT is the one I look to in this field, because they come out with great products, great support and new ideas. The exact opposite of IBM, in my eyes.
 

DVieau2

PFG, Picture Framing God
what in your original post was "unprofessional?"
I commend Rob.

In framing and other industries there is an unwritten protocol that educators and industry leaders will not be publicly critical of those who make the trade magazines and trade show possible.

Sometimes it's like ignoring the gorilla in the room.

It is also why everyone should carefully measure the information coming from trade magazines and trade associations.

Doug
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I, too, saw nothing untowards about the post

Many know Rob and know of his integrity; methinks the poster with an "unprofessional" read might be a tad guilty of same
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Gee Bob, maybe IBM was a bad choice. I was trying to point out the challenge and potential of FT.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Doug, you are absolutely right. In my Guerrilla Framer column, I once warned people about the risk of flying metal scraps from single miter saw systems. Someone from Clearmont complained and the editor wrote a quasi-retraction.

That's why you've never seen objective reviews of products or materials in either PFM or Decor.
 

Emibub

PFG, Picture Framing God
I commend Rob.

In framing and other industries there is an unwritten protocol that educators and industry leaders will not be publicly critical of those who make the trade magazines and trade show possible.
That is the number one reason why the Grumble is so valuable. News travels fast and furious here. We manage to weed out the truths and untruths. That is why the suppliers and manufacturers hate the Grumble. My reps used to snicker when you mentioned the Grumble, like it was a group of misfits and and complainers. Not so much anymore..............
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Rob and "the poster" are both valued friends, whose opinions I respect. Rob's post was uncomplimentary to Fletcher, and I think "the poster" might have over-reacted a bit. I can see where both of them are coming from. Since these are both industry leaders with so much in common, I have no doubt the issue will pass cordially.

Most Grumblers know I'm a Fletcher-Terry guy. My frame shop is full of their tools (but whose isn't?). I enjoy working for them at trade events and appreciate their sponsorship of some of my classes, just as I appreciate working with several other supplier-sponsors. I like the company, so I work with them. If I didn't, I wouldn't. It's that simple. The Valiani development has not shaken my confidence in the company. I have no doubt that Fletcher will continue to take care of every Fletcher thing I own, including my new CMC, just as they have taken care of my F-6100 all these years.

I bought a factrory-refurbished F6100 in 2002, and it served me well. It still cuts perfect mats, just as it did 5 years ago. In that time, one circuit card failed, and it was replaced overnight. When I broke the Emergency Stop button off (not a disabling problem), it was replaced quickly. It is a fine machine and very well built, so I recently considered upgrading it with a new computer and add-in software from The CMC Doctor.

But in Las Vegas, I decided to buy a Valiani MatPro 150i, instead. For the money, I believe it is the best CMC value on the market today for a small framing business like mine. That's what drove my decision to buy it, and my relationship with Fletcher had little to do with it, actually. If I thought another CMC would represent a better value for my shop, I would have bought it. If I had no relationship with Fletcher-Terry, I still would have bought the same machine. My research included talking to some owners of this machine before I bought mine, and every one of them confirmed my own experience; the machine is worthy, and the Fletcher tech staffers respond promptly and accurately.

This morning the buyer of my F6100 picked it up. I'm not sure what any other 1998 model CMC is worth, but he paid me a fair price for it, and I have every confidence that it will continue working for him just as it did for me, and that Fletcher-Terry tech support will take care of him just as well as they did me.
 

Kirstie

PFG, Picture Framing God
I misunderstood and thought Rob's post was part of the original discussion on the matter. Now I realize it was a surprised reaction to the notice in a trade magazine. Rob came into the discussion late after it had been beaten to death. Please. Mountain our of a molehill. Frank, honest discussion is what keeps this forum going.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Several Grumblers have criticized Fletcher-Terry for giving up the Valiani CMCs, equating this development with the F6100 decision several years ago. Other critics have said Fletcher had no choice in the matter; that Valiani made the decision to pull the rug out from under Fletcher.

We may never know who made what decisions in this, and I doubt any of that matters. But we know a few things:

1) Fletcher was right to market Valiani CMCs because they are excellent machines.

2) Fletcher was instrumental in bringing Valiani CMCs to a prominent position in the US market.

3) Fletcher and Valiani will work together to support the existing CMCs sold by Fletcher.

All of this is beginning to seem like a tempest in a teapot. Casting aside the hand-wringing critics, we Fletcher/Valiani buyers are getting everything we bargained for.
 

janetj1968

PFG, Picture Framing God
Like you, I think its a matter of a statement instead of bashing a company.

I don't think its bashing to state the facts.

I bought a Fletcher 6100, months before it was announced discontinued (in 2003) and they never gave me a hint. It was $24,000.

I know all companies are out to get sales and certainly don't want to be stuck with merchandise. However, you can bet I would've bought from Fletcher again and and again had they disclosed it. No one from there has justified to me why they didn't tell me. It's easy. They wanted to make a sale. And a one-time sale was enough for them.

It affected my trust.

Sometime later, I was offered $10,000 from Fletcher for my machine if I traded it in for one of their newer ones. Of course, that was about two years later and when they'd added their new lines. At a $14,000 loss. No thank you.

The F6100...they're good machines, yes.

How many machines has your shop used and bought in the last ten years? How many of them were $24,000? How many are people now are trying to pretty much give them away? Many, many and many. And NOT because they're breaking down. But because we want a company to support us. And by that...I don't just mean phone calls and parts. It's about service and loyalty. ITW/Amp and Seal (now renamed)...these guys are the best. That's what framers expect in this industry.

Forget the fact that its discontinued for a moment. What should we expect to get out of our machines (in dollars, not cuts) if we sold it? A great working machine with no problems..and lets face it, few breakdown and access to parts? We'd expect to sell it and at least cover our depreciation. And why would we want to sell it? Because its our right. Not because we're not happy with it, but because it should be our choice.

But we can't. Because it is discontinued and most framers won't touch it with a ten foot pole unless we practically give it away. The difference between what we should get and what we can get is our sense of loss. And that translates not just to dollars, but trust.

And that's not bashing anyone. That's just the facts.
 

cjmst3k

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
It is also why everyone should carefully measure the information coming from trade magazines and trade associations.

Doug
I agree with you Doug. Anyone remember the Decor interview of LaMarche? ...a few months later... they're gone.


And - If I'm not mistaken, didn't IBM allow other's to "knock off" their design, whereas Apple did not - which is why the "PC" (or IBM Compatable) took hold in the market instead of the "Mac"? I could be incorrect.

But I'd say most of us are using "PC's" instead of MAC's because of the PC's prevalence in the market. That as well as the lower cost compared to a MAC, which is a result of Dell, Compaq, Gateway, HP, etc, competing on the same platform.

I'm not sure if there's anything to take away from this, into the framing world, but when I buy a CMC, it'll be a Wizard - because most CMC users use it.
 

janetj1968

PFG, Picture Framing God
Off Thread...

I agree with you Doug. Anyone remember the Decor interview of LaMarche? ...a few months later... they're gone.
I never heard...what was the 'official' reason behind LaMarche's closing? I know they had a problem with beetles at one time.
 

surferbill

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I commend Rob.
In framing and other industries there is an unwritten protocol that educators and industry leaders will not be publicly critical of those who make the trade magazines and trade show possible.
Sometimes it's like ignoring the gorilla in the room.
It is also why everyone should carefully measure the information coming from trade magazines and trade associations.
Doug
Good point. I guess the trade mags don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

It's a good thing most of us on the Grumble don't have that problem. ;)
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I've worked hard to overcome my shyness. :smileyshot22:

As for the trade mags, I believe they have a journalistic responsibility too. Good journalism requires that there be a line between the editorial side and the business side. If you're afraid to report and critique objectively, then your credibility is diminished and your readership is not served properly.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I agree with you Doug. Anyone remember the Decor interview of LaMarche? ...a few months later... they're gone.


And - If I'm not mistaken, didn't IBM allow other's to "knock off" their design, whereas Apple did not - which is why the "PC" (or IBM Compatable) took hold in the market instead of the "Mac"? I could be incorrect.

But I'd say most of us are using "PC's" instead of MAC's because of the PC's prevalence in the market. That as well as the lower cost compared to a MAC, which is a result of Dell, Compaq, Gateway, HP, etc, competing on the same platform.

QUOTE]

I remember the LaMarche article. Thinking back, it was rather surprising.

Chris, didn't IBM err by choosing to off-the-shelf parts, rather than proprietary parts? That was always my understanding. If so, that error accelerated the personal computer revolution.
 

janetj1968

PFG, Picture Framing God
As info...

I purchased my F6100 outright and the warranty was signed 1/29/03. April 03 is when the F6100 is discontinued.

Ouch.:mad:
 

Emibub

PFG, Picture Framing God
I remember the LaMarche article. Thinking back, it was rather surprising.
Funny thing is when I read that interview I knew it was carp because we had been discussing LaMarche issues for a couple years here on the G. We already knew they were not long for this world. But, I wouldn't expect the magazine to write a scathing article on them either. I guess no article would have been the way to go. But, at the same time maybe the article could have revived them. Probably not at that point, they were too far gone. I wonder if whoever wrote the article knew LaMarche was toast?
 

j Paul

PFG, Picture Framing God
Good point. I guess the trade mags don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

It's a good thing most of us on the Grumble don't have that problem. ;)


Certainly, we as consumers need to exercise due diligence in researching products for ourselves.

I guess the above comments are why Consumer Reports (at least the last I heard ) does not accept paid advertisements.

Of course if our trade mags, didn't have advertisers they probably wouldn't exist on paid subscriptions. I for one like the advertising resource as well.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
As a fellow F-6100 owner of vintage similar to yours, I have to respond...

...I was offered $10,000 from Fletcher for my machine if I traded it in for one of their newer ones. Of course, that was about two years later and when they'd added their new lines. At a $14,000 loss. No thank you.
I remember that offer, and I didn't take it, either. Like you, I remained happy with my F6100. However, it is not realistic to consider the price difference as a $14,000 loss. It was a trade-in offer and, as trade-in offers go, it wasn't bad. What kind of trade in offer would you expect to get for a 5 year old, $24,000 car?

...How many machines has your shop used and bought in the last ten years? How many of them were $24,000? How many are people now are trying to pretty much give them away? Many, many and many. And NOT because they're breaking down. But because we want a company to support us. And by that...I don't just mean phone calls and parts. It's about service and loyalty. ITW/Amp and Seal (now renamed)...these guys are the best. That's what framers expect in this industry.
Have you forgotten that Fletcher-Terry committed to support those machines for seven years after they were discontinued? I guess you have not needed any support or parts, because if you did, you would have found FT very cooperative in taking care of your machine.

...Forget the fact that its discontinued for a moment. What should we expect to get out of our machines (in dollars, not cuts) if we sold it? But we can't.
Yes, we can. I sold mine this week for $6,000 plus tax. I don't keep up with the CMC market, but I'm guessing one would be hard-pressed to find any other brand of 1998 CMC worth that much. It was a good machine when they built it, and it's still a good machine. The CMC Doctor's computer upgrade and service will carry on for years to come, I imagine, so these CMCs are destined for a long and useful life.

Your distrust of the maker is not justified by the reality of the situation. The scenario of abandonment you describe is not real. Indeed, the opposite is true. Fletcher-Terry still supports the F-6100 CMCs quite well. I dare say, I'd rather have an F6100 than a 1998 Eclipse or Mat Maestro. Wouldn't you?
 

Bandsaw

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
It's my opinion that those that bought a Fletcher Terry F6100 within a few months (probably a year) of it being cancelled deserve a settlement of somesort from Fletcher Terry. With a software controlled machine such as a CMC ongoing software development is accepted and upgrades are usually included for a period of time. The F6100 software wasn't really up to the level it should have been when cancelled and there were no further upgrades - just a final attempt to solve some but not all of the glitches. Support in parts and service is only part of ongoing service in a CMC.

Support for 7 years - less than 2 years to go.
 

Elaine

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I experienced a similar situation with the Fletcher 5100; purchased it, within months of purchase, it was discontinued and a limited warranty on parts, etc. Just received a letter the other day that there will be no parts or service on this machine and was offered a discount (a very small one) on one of their new machines that they offer. TRUST??? If I need one, I will do some heavy research into other companies. I used to say "Fletcher" for everything.

my 2 cents.

Elaine
 
Well, Fletcher Terry seems to be a company to stay away from. Also, IMHO, Jim Miller's posts need to be taken with a grain of salt. He may be sincere, however, at the end of the day he is still monetarily compensated by the company and, thus, it is very hard to believe he can be unbiased. (that's my two cents).
 

Kirstie

PFG, Picture Framing God
Well, Fletcher Terry seems to be a company to stay away from. Also, IMHO, Jim Miller's posts need to be taken with a grain of salt. He may be sincere, however, at the end of the day he is still monetarily compensated by the company and, thus, it is very hard to believe he can be unbiased. (that's my two cents).
This does not have to turn ugly. If you knew Jim Miller at all, you would realize that he is one of the most trustworthy and reputable professionals in the business. He gives his time to this forum freely, answering questions on topics he could certainly charge for in his classes.

There are several reps for various companies on this forum. Their input is, from my point of view, extremely valuable. None of them have hidden their affiliations. And remember, they are all professional framers as well.

Enough of this.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Jim, as with each of us, is entitled to his opinions, and his biases. Most of the time, we may even agree with this views.

However, as a "trustworthy and reputable professional," he, and each of us, should always disclose, for those who do not know, our affiliations with various companies when commenting on its, or its competitors products and/or services. This is not the first time this has matter has been brought up.

Other trustworthy and reputable professionals, on this and other online forums, do this without fail, or have a permanent signature that denotes their affilation. I ask that all Grumblers do this. However, anyone who does not do it should probably expect that someone will do it for them as a "courtesy" to those whose decisions may unwittingly be effected.
 

EllenAtHowards

PFG, Picture Framing God
However, as a "trustworthy and reputable professional," he [Jim Miller], and each of us, should always disclose, for those who do not know, our affiliations with various companies when commenting on its, or its competitors products and/or services.
I thought Jim did a very good job of disclosing his affiliation with Fletcher-Terry at the beginning of his statement about his experience with his 6100. In fact, as I was reading it, I thought "Good. Jim is being upfront about his links to FT"

Other thoughts about this thread:

You must agree that discontinuing a product two months after selling it for full price is a little beyond the pale.

Anyone who thinks the trade magazines are an unbiased source for information just hasn't been around very long. "Don't believe everything you read..."
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
...as a "trustworthy and reputable professional," he, and each of us, should always disclose, for those who do not know, our affiliations with various companies when commenting on its, or its competitors products and/or services. This is not the first time this has matter has been brought up...
"...Most Grumblers know I'm a Fletcher-Terry guy. My frame shop is full of their tools (but whose isn't?). I enjoy working for them at trade events and appreciate their sponsorship of some of my classes, just as I appreciate working with several other supplier-sponsors. I like the company, so I work with them. If I didn't, I wouldn't. It's that simple...<

Is there some ambiguity about that paragraph, Paul?
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
None Jim. I considered that a proper disclosure. Let's all continue to make such a disclosure for the sake of the newer Grumblers who do not know us and whose decisions are often made based on information they read here. Thanks.
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
There are a few people that, when they say it, I know it is honest and trustorthy. Jim is one of those. And, it's always done in a "it's my opinion" point of view. Rarely any agenda, never any condenscension

I used to think that about Paul, too
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I have the same respect for Jim as you do. And for you, even though we sometimes disagree on various matters.

Disclosure is simply a protocol that should be expected when one has a financial relationship with the company you are commenting on, or its competitor. It enhances one's reputation as fair and responsible, while enabling readers to make an informed decision.
 

j Paul

PFG, Picture Framing God
Well, Fletcher Terry seems to be a company to stay away from. Also, IMHO, Jim Miller's posts need to be taken with a grain of salt. He may be sincere, however, at the end of the day he is still monetarily compensated by the company and, thus, it is very hard to believe he can be unbiased. (that's my two cents).

Quote:
Originally Posted by camacho
...Can anyone give ma a non biased view or recomendation of either of these two machines...

"No, there are no unbiased recommendations. Most framers have not used both machines, and we all tend to be biased toward the machines we use.
.........................
The opinions you get here are certainly worth taking into account, but none of them should take precedence over your own research. Your decision ultimately rests with you, who would invest in the machine and depend on it to perform for your purposes for some time."


The blue text above is Jim Millers answer on a previous post. Note that Jim admits that we probably all have bias, based on our personal experience.

However, I in my own biased opinion from my experience with Jim, in person, on this forum and by his personal reputation, would never for one second think that Jim would intentionally mislead someone for his own monetary self interest. Jim believes in the products he reps for on a part time basis, or he simply would not do it.

I guess we expect all framers coming on this forum to be somewhat educated about their profession to begin with. If you are serious about becoming a framing professional, and have ever been to a trade show or picked-up a trade journal in recent years then you should know who Jim Miller is! ( John Ranes II, Bob Carter, Rob Markoff, Hugh, Vivian and others ) Heck, I even knew who Paul Cascio was before opening my shop.
If I had to read a disclaimer every time one of these professionals posted that would get old real fast.
:bdh:


 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I've known Jim Miller for 20 years now and what I know about Jim is that if the product or company were not top notch he would not represent them.

As far as the original placement of the post I don't see how that makes a difference since Fletcher is not a consumer product. Fletcher does not advertise and in most cases does not sell to the consumer but rather the pros.
 

deaconsbench

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Jim, just a thought to shoot this old discussion out of the water... Maybe consider a signature line such as John's to show some of your affiliations.

It appears we'll have to wade through a pool of carp every time you post anything to do with a product. Not right, not fair, just seems to be the sad reality.
 

Jay H

PFG, Picture Framing God
Is this Jimapolusa? What a fun adventure in missing the point. Deacon, that's probably not going to happen. If he were interested he would have done it the first 5 or so times somebody has called him on his affiliation.

Rob asked "Do the actions of the company cause one to be less trusting?

If we removed the name of the company and only focus on the action would the comments be any different?"

Well that would depend on the action wouldn't it? Having some details of this particular company and this particular situation, I don't think so.

I think the Vallianalaasdkl;asdf is a far superior machine. If I were buying one, I'd still consider it. Service would be a huge factor. I've never been burned by Fletcher before but I only have a glass cutter from them. Its older than me and I can still get parts for it so they seem to be a pretty stable company.

Anytime you buy a product from a company who is selling as a middle man, you run the risk of losing service.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
...Jim Miller's posts need to be taken with a grain of salt...it is very hard to believe he can be unbiased...
Bias, according to a dictionary:
a. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.
b. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.

Framers often have favorable opinions about the tools they use in their shops every day -- especially if they are very proficient with those tools. I'm like that, aren't you?

Let's say you did some research and decided to buy a certain tool for your frame shop. And let's say you use it every day, really like it, and become proficient using it. And let's say the supplier heard about how great you think that tool is, and paid you to write an article about it, or paid you to demonstrate it at a trade show. Would that make your opinion biased? Should the rest of us disregard your considerable experience with that tool and your opinion of it? Should we disregard your opinion of the supplier because they paid you to provide them some service?

I invite you to explain exactly why you feel my relationship with any company amounts to bias, such as "inhibits impartial judgment". Can you describe some way that my opinions are "unfair or stemming from prejudice"?

The implication of your comment is that my opinion may be purchased. I guess you won't mind if I consider that extremely offensive, because I take my opinions seriously. After all, my framing business depends on the validity of my opinions, just as your framing business depends on the validity of your opinions. You do have a framing business, don't you?

If you have no substantive disagreement with my opinion, then it seems your goal is only to "shoot the messenger", which would amount to nothing more than a personal attack. In that case, I suggest you take better aim and defend your accusation of bias with some reasoning. For example, can you give some reason why you believe my opinion of any product would be different if I had no relationship with the company that supplies it?

On the other hand, if you do have some substantive disagreement with any opinion of mine, let's hear it. Please consider this your invitation to present a reasoned, differing opinion. Maybe you can change my mind about the equipment I use in my shop daily, or the suppliers I support by my purchases and my respect.
 

BUDDY

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
If I may Paul.

Paul I think the comment by j paul ," guess we expect all framers coming on this forum to be somewhat educated about their profession to begin with. If you are serious about becoming a framing professional, and have ever been to a trade show or picked-up a trade journal in recent years then you should know who Jim Miller is! ( John Ranes II, Bob Carter, Rob Markoff, Hugh, Vivian and others ) Heck, I even knew who Paul Cascio was before opening my shop.
If I had to read a disclaimer every time one of these professionals posted that would get old real fast."

says a a lot for us who have been around for a long time . In fact some of us OLD FOGEYS have seen more come and go than we care to admitt. We also remeber how some have come to beas well known as they currently are. I remember a new Framer asking a unknown chapter president if he could assist in giving a good word to PPFA leaders towards useing him as an INSTRUCTOR. Do you remember that istance Paul. If memory serves you where having some difficulty getting the recommendations of other instructors largely because they didn't like your straight forward and blunt personality. Well Paul I couldn't help you then but maybe I can now. It all has to do with an old cliche. "it is Nice to be important but it is more important to be NICE"

As I said some of us have been around too long but others are just getting started. and when they read your blunt suggestion and they don't know you me or Jim Miller they may well assume that you may know something you aren't saying. Which even you have now said isn't true but the inference has already been made and the impression set in some NEWBIES minds. We have had others use other Bogus methods of baffling the unsuspecting newbies , some intentional some just mistakenly . However make no mistake misconception don't fool the OLD FOGEYS but the do generate MYTHCONCEPTIONS among Newbies who don't know the true character of all us boisterous OLD FOGEYS and we all owe it to them to be polite and not cast dipersions while we are making our varing views lest we possibley besmercth the charcter of others in our FAMILY and thereby cause ill feelings that ripple allover for those who probably can use the good family relationship of a information and opinionated FAMILY of Framers.

Since I am no longer a Framer I hope this is taken with a grain of salt and the GOOD WILL with which it is intened towards ALL who share here and any other Industry forum with the same good will and POLITENESS, and THOUGHFULLNESS.

"DO ONTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HVE THEM DO ONTO YOU"
Cast your Bread upon the waters and it will return ten fold"

BUDDY
 
Jim,

I didn’t come here to pick a fight, but rather get some informed opinions on the framing industry. You chopped up my quote. I also said you might be “sincere” in your opinions. I don’t know you from Adam. It is a general opinion, that people on certain company’s payroll tend to be biased for that company. If anyone thinks that is a far fetched statement, they are not being honest. If I come on the Grumble as a new member, and read a post from someone who talks favorably about a certain product or company, I would want to know if there is a professional relationship between that person and the company. I might not have read other posts where this was disclosed. Paul C is right in that there should be a statement in your signature which reflects this, so it is always there.

Again, I don’t want a fight. It was just an observation from a new member. I received some great advice and learned so much already. I have also taken some time to read your previous posts on different subjects. I am sure I will follow many of your ideas and advice. I thank you for that. But I still stand by statement, no matter who it is.

I wish you continued success.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
...It is a general opinion, that people on certain company’s payroll tend to be biased for that company.
Well, that's where you went wrong. I am not on any company's payroll, other than my own frame shop. As a contract consultant for others, I am paid only for specific work on specific occasions, and there is no lasting obligation. I have such "professional relationships" with several companies, and none of them would influence my opinion. That assumption would be incorrect.

Welcome to The Grumble. Now that you know everything about me but my underwear size, it would be considerate for you to complete your profile.

And if you ever get to Columbus, stop in for a visit.

This thread isn't supposed to be about Jim. Can we get back to the topic now?
 

Emibub

PFG, Picture Framing God
I don’t know you from Adam.
We don't know you from Adam either. Maybe get to know the lay of the land before commenting on other posters. Plus, your comments will carry more weight if you fill out your profile.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Jim, the issue is not whether or not your opinion would change. The issue is whether someone who is reading your posting and thinking you are only a "user" of Fletcher products, when in fact you are on their payroll.

If you, and others don't want to disclose such information, then expect that someone will do it for you. The choice is yours.
 
T

Tom Reigle

Guest
Quote from Jim Miller:

"I am not on any company's payroll, other than my own frame shop. As a contract consultant for others, I am paid only for specific work on specific occasions, and there is no lasting obligation."

Now Mr. Cascio, as you seem to want to belabor this issue to the extreme, what part of that highlighted statement don't you understand?? Maybe some of us who aren't on anyone's "payroll" can help with the translation for you and Mr. Woodwork Lover, whomever he may be.

As I recall, this is a public forum and is open to most anyone who has sense enough to know how to register as a participant. There are no dues, no rules of procedure, and no banned personal opinions that I am aware of. If Jim Miller was stating a personal opinion of his towards any particular product either in a positive light or a negative light, it seems to me that he has just as much right and priviledge to speak his mind as you do. Whether or not he is periodically sponsored by that product's company is neither here nor there regarding his opinon of that product. He could have just as easily said that the product really sucked!! This is looking more and more like some kind of personal vendetta of yours for whatever reason against this man and I don't understand why you won't take his explanation as such and let it be??

You are hurting your reputation much more than anything you think you are doing to Jim Miller by some of the replies here and I would suggest that we move on to the original subject of the thread which has nothing to do with the life and times of Jim Miller.
 
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