Question About Attach EZ

[janetj1968]

Great comparisons...and I follow your logic. That's how I'd judge, too.

The problem is that if I'm understanding right...they're not comparing them in the traditional sense. Each one is just judged by its own merit on a scoring system.

I think that's why a better piece might actually lose.

 

[Cliff Wilson]

In fact, my very unanswered question would've maybe pointed us in the direction I was going. When is preservation too much? Even for a competition? For so many things the attach EZ, even in competition in my eyes, it seems completely appropriate.

It has been pointed out that there are many questions with points associated with them for competitions.

Preservation is one question.

Judges make informed subjective decisions about each question. The judging classes and question format are designed to minimize subjectivity, but it can not be eliminated.

I answered informing the OP of how I would score this question on the appropriate score sheet question. I use AEZ. Will continue to. What I do in my shop has only a tangential relationship to how I score when judging. I am just one judge.

John Ranes said he thinks there has been "too much" emphasis on technical and not as much on design (I'm paraphrasing). I suspect that is due to attempts to minimize subjectivity. Design by it's nature lends itself to more subjectivity.

This concern could reasonably be brought up with the competition board for discussion/consideration.

I think that's why a better piece might actually lose.

"better?" Part of judging is making comments to inform the participant why there are variances both positive nad negative. There are three judges for a competition to mitigate some of the subjectivity.

I have seen a number of judging results that weren't what I would have expected.
You really should take the judging class before you make assumptions about the process.

 

[Jim Miller]

The problem is that if I'm understanding right...they're not comparing them in the traditional sense. Each one is just judged by its own merit on a scoring system.

I do not wish to criticize the Competition Board for their scoring system. They have done an excellent job of minimizing the subjective aspects of judging, but there is no way to eliminate subjective comparisons completely.

Back to my response to Rob above, a crooked lace-mount would be scored lower than a straight nylon-tag mount. An alpha cellulose substrate would be scored higher than foam board. Lacing with cotton thread would be scored higher than polyester thread. Good appearance would be scored higher than poor appearance.

So yes, each entry would be scored on its own merits, and the points would fall where they may. But what happens when two entries tie for the win? I don't know what the scoring rules say, but I guess I would look at each of them again, and revisit my score for each factor of the judging, with intentions to change at least one score. So, in that sense, it would be almost impossible to eliminate comparisons.

 

[janetj1968]

I have seen a number of judging results that weren't what I would have expected.

I think we're agreeing on outcome. Perhaps I could've picked a word other than "better".

I think if we're surprised, it would seem that we would be favoring another piece.

And you're right. I wish I had more insight. I don't envy the judges.

 

[Cliff Wilson]

Heck, the question "Did the piece meet it's objective?" is worth twice as many points as the preservation question.

I've seen more points lost and final results changed because the "objective" was poorly stated or so vague there was no way to determine if it was met.

Technically, Did it meet it's objective? isn't workmanship or design and it's a 10 point question, that a casual observer wouldn't be thinking about.

It's questions like this that make Popular Choice (at least at our chapter meetings) often be out of the running in the point system.

 

[MIK]

This might be off topic of the OP but

Are the objectives suppose to be "Why" the design of the piece was picked...ie the story that the framing design is telling?

Do the judges read the objective(s) of the entrant before they judge the piece or after or not at all? If before, is the piece judged against the objective(s), if after, is the piece re-judged or do the objective(s) not count at all?

 

[johnny]

This discussion is going all over the place.

We all know by now that conservators will get you for using anything new.

If you're framing someone's new needlework by all means use the nylon tags and no one is going to fault you, except a professional from the local conservatory. But you should use them anyway because we're never going to get them to come around.

If you're framing valuable antique sampler you have to use traditional methods.

In marking down for using Pat's hardware the judges are doing exactly what the conservators would do.

Do this as an exercise. Email your local conservator http://www.conservation-us.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.viewPage&pageId=495. (We have a really great place here by the way. And I say that without an ounce of sarcasm - just want to be clear - they are great. The Intermuseum Conservation Association. One of their staff posts here.)

So email a place like that in your area and tell them you use Artcare Restore foam board as backing instead of coroplast. They'll tell you you're flat out wrong to be doing so.

We all know you're not wrong. But they are working on a different level. And so when you frame an actual work on paper of true value I'd suggest using 8 ply museum rag as a mount board and coroplast as a support board, sealing it all off with 3m 850 polyester tape. Museum mat goes without saying and OP3 acrylic.

If it's taken to an appraiser in the future or some damage happens to it and it's taken to a conservator using the Artcare Restore can only get you into trouble if they tell the owner that improper materials were used.

And, again, we all are of the opinion that Artcare Restore is not an improper material. But in that situation we are no longer the person who counts. So don't use it.

I didn't pick that situation out of the air. I got into a disagreement about the use of Artcare Retore with them and it was very cordial and I developed a lot of respect for them by the end, but it did kill my use of Artcare Restore instead of archival coroplast for expensive objects because no authority be it a collector or a judge is going to take my side over theirs.

So Pat... please realize that any new materials undergo the same amount of discrimination. I guess some of it has to do with the safety of old methods being time tested. My cynical side says some of it has to do with politics. Some of it has to do with conservators being, well... conservative. (not politically)

Anyway, this would be an insurmountable uphill battle for you. But if you can get the conservators on your side (you can't) then you might have a shot.

 

[Rob Markoff]

And, again, we all are of the opinion that Artcare Restore is not an improper material.

Well, I am not part of the "all"- why would one use a reversible mounting board as a backing board? I would take you to task for using it too. I believe it is possible that the adhesive could be accidentally/unintentionally activated if a piece is stored in a warm/hot environment. What is the purpose of using a board with a pre-applied adhesive as a backing board?

It has been proven that even if one uses it as a mounting board, there is residue that remains on the piece so it is not truly a conservation/preservation product.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

Pat - is this true? What is your opinion of this technique. If you do not "endorse" it, why not? Here we have an instructor (who you are obviously hostile towards) showing your product in his class as an alternative technique -

Is it possible that preservationists do not "endorse" this technique because they do not "know" about this technique?
Can anyone show me literature from AIC or any textile conservation publication that specifically says that the use of nylon tags is bad or not recommended? Or anywhere in a professional textile conservation publication or discussion board where it is even discussed?

I have neither endorsed nor not endorsed Jim's hybrid method, and as I tell everyone, if it works for you by all means keep using it. The only reason I started experimenting with other ways to stretch needlework was because lacing and Jim's method still did not address the problem of pulls and tares to the canvas or fabric, which can happen during the lacing method or with Jim's method. EZ-Stretch does. I have never suggested that my way is the only way, it's just a different way that does no damage....and that is something I can prove.

As Joe said, he wouldn't use Attach-EZ on certain things, and as I have stated on my DVD's and publicly hundreds of times, neither do I. It's up to a framer to make that decision.


What I do take offence to is when someone posts something that makes in necessary to defend myself or my methods when they admittedly don't use Attach-EZ in any way. For some reason there are people here on the G who have made me public enemy number one. For what reason I can't even imagine. I will admit that I am no Vivian Kistler, but would like to think that I have brought something to the industry that helps, not hurts. If I sound hostile at times it's because people call me all the time with misinformation that they have been given. I have 3 educational DVD's that include all of my methods, and any advice that has been given out about my methods that has been altered by someone who is considered an expert generally gets back to me for verification. There are lots of educators who have backed me 100% and some have not. I realize that all of my methods are not going to be embraced by everyone, nor is everyone going to like me personally, but the least I can ask is to be given same respect when a thread directly involves something that I am the only expert in--Attach-EZ. And the same respect to which every other expert is given when they offer advice about their own methods here on the G.

I have no animosity toward Jim or anyone else in the industry and really wish that we could all try to find a way to co-exist without always looking for trouble where there shouldn’t be any.

 

[Rob Markoff]

......... it's just a different way that does no damage....and that is something I can prove.

Pat - if you can prove that it does no damage, then you should have no difficulty having that "proof" vetted by a neutral third party like an AIC member or some discussion of your product on a conservation discussion board. It would be in your best interest that a credentialed conservator acknowledges that your method/product works. Consequently if they do, there is no reason that a judge would mark down the use of your methods/products in a competition, or that 100% of the educators acknowledge that your products/methods are appropriate.

I would sure like to know what educators say your products are not appropriate as I have never heard one say that. If you are not comfortable posting names, PM me.

You know how I feel about your products - so please do not take offense when I tell you that I also think you are too close to the source of the product for me to feel that you can be completely objective when you say your products are "safe" or appropriate. I need to hear it from a conservator.

I am confused. The OP mentioned AttachEZ and from what I have read on the 6 pages of this thread, every reference was to AttachEZ or nylon tags or the use of a tagging gun. I admit that I am unfamiliar with EZ-Stretch. What is EZ-Stretch and how is it different than AttachEZ?

If it is a superior method to the hybrid method that Jim mentioned, why has it taken 6 pages for this product/process to be mentioned?

Are others who have posted on this thread familiar with EZ-Stretch?

 

[janetj1968]

I could be wrong, but I believe EZ-Stretch is the name of the process (method) she uses for stretching needlework with Attach-EZ. I'll have to dig out my kit.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

I would sure like to know what educators say your products are not appropriate as I have never heard one say that. If you are not comfortable posting names, PM me.

You know how I feel about your products - so please do not take offense when I tell you that I also think you are too close to the source of the product for me to feel that you can be completely objective when you say your products are "safe" or appropriate. I need to hear it from a conservator.

I am confused. The OP mentioned AttachEZ and from what I have read on the 6 pages of this thread, every reference was to AttachEZ or nylon tags or the use of a tagging gun. I admit that I am unfamiliar with EZ-Stretch. What is EZ-Stretch and how is it different than AttachEZ?

If it is a superior method to the hybrid method that Jim mentioned, why has it taken 6 pages for this product/process to be mentioned?

Are others who have posted on this thread familiar with EZ-Stretch?

Rob, you should have EZ-Stretch. It would have been in the All In One Kit you received years ago for your class. And if you have my first DVD which I think you do, and watched it, you would also know that EZ-Stretch is what I call my method of stretching needlework. There are some very large examples of the use of EZ-Stretch to stretch needlework on my origianal DVD 101, This same DVD comes with all of my kits which have the fabric mounting tools in them. Two of the needle art examples on the DVD are the same samples that I have been taking to shows and carrying around with me for about 5 years and have been using as proof of how this method does no harm, and in fact is way less stressful to the fabric during the stretching process than any other method.

Anyone who has my first DVD can see the process for themselves and I'm pretty sure that the reason no one is saying anything about using the method is for the very reason people are afraid to post. Too many experts, who may or may not know what they are talking about, to intimidate them for having the audasity to think for themselves.

Framers don't need a conservitor to help figure out what they can see for themselves...that what I do does no harm. Nor in deciding for themselves whether they believe something is archival. It's all about common sense, and for some reason the indurstry experts have decided that the masses don't have any. Which I know for a fact is not true.

If everyone had been listening to a few well meaning experts over the years there wouldn't be thousands of framers using my methods today. Rob, not one member of the conservation board, judges committee, or any conservitor has ever called me to ask me anything about my methods or how any of it works. Most still think that Attach-EZ is one tagging tool with some huge needle on it.

I have used conservitors many times myself when there is something that I am not quaified to do. They have my utmost respect but johnny hit the nail on the head with this statement: So Pat... please realize that any new materials undergo the same amount of discrimination. I guess some of it has to do with the safety of old methods being time tested. My cynical side says some of it has to do with politics. Some of it has to do with conservators being, well... conservative. (not politically)

Anyway, this would be an insurmountable uphill battle for you. But if you can get the conservators on your side (you can't) then you might have a shot.

Sad, but probably true

 

[osgood]

Rob, not one member of the conservation board, judges committee, or any conservitor has ever called me to ask me anything about my methods or how any of it works.

Is there a 'conservation board'?

I just wondered if you have shown your products to any conservators to get some opinions from them? That might be a good thing to do!

 

[Rob Markoff]

Rob, you should have EZ-Stretch. It would have been in the All In One Kit you received years ago for your class.

Pat- While I thank you for your generousity, the kit that was furnished years ago for my class is/was considered property of the PPFA and it should be in their class supplies....in storage in Michigan. I don't have it nor am I allowed to keep samples furnished for my classes (otherwise there is a computerized mat cutter and a new v-nailer that I would love to "sample". )

I've never had an opportunity to see your DVDs.

And Johnny is the one suggesting that we use should Artcare Restore as a backing board..........and then we should ask a conservator if they feel it is prudent.

 

[Jim Miller]

Rob, I don't have the DVD either. Years ago, I was probably among Pat's first customers and, as I recall, she had not yet produced any instructional tapes of disks. However, she demonstrates all of her methods at trade shows, which is where I became familiar with what she calls the EZ-Stretch method.

It would be nice if she would give detailed explanations here, but then you wouldn't buy her DVDs. Probably the best you can get is a look at a photograph on her web site.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

Rob, I don't have the DVD either. Years ago, I was probably among Pat's first customers and, as I recall, she had not yet produced any instructional tapes of disks. However, she demonstrates all of her methods at trade shows, which is where I became familiar with what she calls the EZ-Stretch method.

It would be nice if she would give detailed explanations here, but then you wouldn't buy her DVDs. Probably the best you can get is a look at a photograph on her web site.

Jim, yes you do have my DVD because I sent it to you personally before WCAF show the year I first came out with it and we talked about it after you received your copy. I remember becasue when I asked you about what you thought of it, you told me that you hadn't had time to look at it and that it was still buried in your stack of things to do. You had offered to show Attach-EZ in your classes at the show and I sent you the DVD so that you would be able to demonstrate on behalf of my company and you would be using the same methods that I was showing on my DVD. If I'm not mistaken that was the same year my company sponsored your class. Guess you never got around to watching it.

Rob, the kit was sent to you directly and I remember that because I was told by Sheila Purseglove that it wasn't the normal procedure for handling class materials. The kit was not returned it to me if that was what was supposed to happen.

 

[Rob Markoff]

Yes, Pat the kit was sent to me directly so I could review what was inside and prepare for the class. It was then taken to Las Vegas and at the end of the class, PPFA took it and all of the other materials donated by vendors back to Jackson.

Sheila allowed me to have your kit in advance so I had time to prepare for the class, but PPFA is very protective of suppliers and does ask for all donated goods back to be part of their classroom supplies. The kit is in Jackson.

 

[johnny]

Well, I am not part of the "all"- why would one use a reversible mounting board as a backing board? I would take you to task for using it too. I believe it is possible that the adhesive could be accidentally/unintentionally activated if a piece is stored in a warm/hot environment. What is the purpose of using a board with a pre-applied adhesive as a backing board?

It has been proven that even if one uses it as a mounting board, there is residue that remains on the piece so it is not truly a conservation/preservation product.

I knew in all that mess I was going to misspeak. Of course, I meant Artcare, not Artcare restore.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

This subject has been bantered around long enough but I wanted to say thank Paulette Pyron for asking the question. Not because it talks about my company, but because it has brought to light the fact that even the experts who we all depend on don't always have the correct answers. The competition board has a tough job. I have been involved directly with 2 chapter level PPFA competitions and can say that I would not want to be a judge. Sometimes it comes down to which one do you like best.

It is pretty clear from the info on several posts here that there is and has been a lot of misconception about Attach-EZ, what it is and how it works. I would like to clear up a few.


Attach-EZ is not just one tool for fabric mounting. It is an entire object mounting system of totally reversible ways to mount just about anything that may come in for framing. Every mounting method in the system will do no harm and will always be totally reversible.


EZ-Stretch is what I call my method of stretching needle art. It does no harm to the needlework canvas or fabric and can easily be taken apart, washed and re stretched if need be.


EZ-Tach is part of the Attach-EZ system; it has it's own separate trademark name because the attachments and attaching system attaches all types of 3D art such as: rings, watches, dolls, military medals, records, hats, books, wine glasses, etc. All of the attachments are archival quality and the methods are designed to do no harm and will always be reversible.

Every method of use within Attach-EZ is designed to be fast and at the same time, do no harm. It can cut hours out of some projects. This isn't something that only I believe. There is a lot of testimony right here on the G which can back up that statement.

My company is no different than any business in the industry and I am trying to keep my head above water just like everyone else. It isn't always easy. There are times when I get the impression that some think I should not be charging for my DVD's, but instead should give them away. If it were possible to stay in business doing that I would. However, the education is the most important part of what makes it all work, and the DVD's cost way too much to produce to be able to give them away. There is four and a half hours of demonstrations between the 3 DVD's and hundreds of examples of how to. That's why I demonstrate at shows or at a PPFA events. After seeing a demonstration the DVD's make it possible for framers to take me home with them and be able to review what they learned.

I would welcome any conservator, competition board member, show judge, or educator to contact me if they have questions about any of my methods or products, and would welcome a chance to put to rest some of the myths that seem to have popped up over the past 10 years.

For anyone coming to WI chapter PPFA event in Milwakee or KYTN event Nashvile I have something new for you. A way to mount jersey's that requires no sewing, attaching fasteners, or pinning. It is totally archival and solves a lot of problems when mounting T-shirts. See you all soon.

 

[Rob Markoff]

Could you please post the event dates, time and locations?

 

[Mikbaja]

June 5th Nashville TN CMI warehouse off Rosa Parks Blvd. Starting Saturday,
June 4th
KY/TN Framing Competition
& Social Time
Sunday,
June 5th
Educational Meeting with
Pat Kotnour
10:00 a.m. Competition Entries Due @ CMI 8:30 a.m. Registration @ CMI
10:30 a.m. Judging of Entries (closed session) 9:30 a.m. Education Session I
12:00 p.m. Lunch Gathering – Location TBA 11:30 a.m. Lunch-sponsored by Crescent
1:30 p.m. TN State Museum Tour 12:30 p.m. Competition Results
6:00 p.m. Dinner – Location TBA 1:00 p.m. Education Session II
3:00 p.m. Door Prize Giveaways
To Pre-register contact Letha Drury at 859-253-3885 or letha@southhillgallery.com

 

[Mikbaja]

Hotel arrangements are not finalized yet will post event soon on the right board. Thanks Y'all come!

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

Could you please post the event dates, time and locations?

mikki beat me to the Nashville event and this one is on another thread but here it is again.

Pat Kotnour will be coming to Milwaukee for our Spring event as well as our PRINT and OPEN competition.


Monday, May 16th, 2011

Iron Horse Hotel 500 West Florida Street Milwaukee, WI

10-3 pm.

$45 for members/ $55 non members

Pat will be demonstrating from 10-12
lunch and popular choice voting for the competition pieces 12-1
Pat will demonstrate other great products 1-2:30
awards and 3 amazing raffle prizes afterwards!

-25 Artique matboards from Larson Juhl
-a carton of Kooltack from Evald moulding
-$100 gas card

RSVP to Julie at galleryframe@sbcglobal.net or call at 920-921-1144
please rsvp by May 9th!
​

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

mikki beat me to the Nashville event and this one is on another thread but here it is again.

Pat Kotnour will be coming to Milwaukee for our Spring event as well as our PRINT and OPEN competition.


Monday, May 16th, 2011

Iron Horse Hotel 500 West Florida Street Milwaukee, WI

10-3 pm.

$45 for members/ $55 non members

Pat will be demonstrating from 10-12
lunch and popular choice voting for the competition pieces 12-1
Pat will demonstrate other great products 1-2:30
awards and 3 amazing raffle prizes afterwards!

-25 Artique matboards from Larson Juhl
-a carton of Kooltack from Evald moulding
-$100 gas card

RSVP to Julie at galleryframe@sbcglobal.net or call at 920-921-1144
please rsvp by May 9th!
​

Everything seems to be going on, business as usual for PPFA. The NCPPFA, WPPFA, and KYTNPPFA all have events planned and will be going forward with, in the next 3 weeks. I believe there are others as well.

Maybe Mike or someone should start an events calander that won't go away. That way whenever anyone is having an event, they can post it to the thread and everyone will always be able to refer to it and know what is being planned. Once the event has taken place, the moderators could remove it to make room for new events as they come up. Is this possible? Mike?

 

[Mike Labbe]

We have this already. Click CALENDAR up on top. Events will be listed there, and you can add your own. They're also listed at the bottom of the main page, on the day(s) of the event.

While commercial posts are prohibited on all forums except the Commercial posts section, PPFA has been granted a special exception to this policy. PPFA chapter leaders are permitted to start their own dedicated thread to invite folks and promote each meeting's activities. (One small exception: compensated guest speakers should not be doing so for themselves, because then it would stroll into commercial posts territory.)

We encourage chapters to use this great resource to get the word out!

Mike

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

We have this already. Click CALENDAR up on top. Events will be listed there, and you can add your own. They're also listed at the bottom of the main page, on the day(s) of the event.

While commercial posts are prohibited on all forums except the Commercial posts section, PPFA has been granted a special exception to this policy. PPFA chapter leaders are permitted to start their own dedicated thread to invite folks and promote each meeting's activities. (One small exception: compensated guest speakers should not be doing so for themselves, because then it would stroll into commercial posts territory.)

We encourage chapters to use this great resource to get the word out!

Mike

It doesn't appear that anyone is using it. I didn't know it was there until today.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

I guess it's time for me to weigh in here. I will be the first one to say that Attach-EZ isn't for everyone or for every type of fabric mounting project. But one of the things that many overlook is the fact that thousands of framers can't be wrong. My mission has always been to bring easier, time saving tools and methods to the industry. The fact is, most people are not in framing for the competition. They are in it to make a living. As some of you probably know my motto is: first do no harm, but make some money while you're doing it. The one complaint that I have about the industry today is that, in my opinion, too much emphasis is put on teaching old methods and not nearly enough in teaching new framer’s practical methods that are reversible and do no harm. While at the same time helping them to be more profitable . Labor intensive projects can take a lot of the profit out. My methods simply put the profit back in without doing harm.

It has been 18 years since Attach-EZ was founded., and many excellent, award-winning framers have been using it since the beginning. Some are right here on the Grumble. My success and credibility doesn't depend on experts who have never seen or used it. It depends on all the framers in the trenches who actually use it every day and understand exactly what Attach-EZ brings to their business. Those who use it love it. It has evolved over the years to cover most types 3 D art and I think that the thousands of framers who use it speaks to its credibility.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

I don't understand this comment at all.

Attach-EZ makes a hole for the nylon fastener to go through. Sewing when lacing makes a hole for the thread to go through.

What is the additional opening in the artwork? What does sewing in the same stich (sic) mean?

And this would only occur on counted crosstitch or a fabric based needlework. I cannot see how it would make any difference on a buckram based needlework as the "holes" are large enough for the Attach-EZ needle to pass through without even touching the side of the holes.

And speaking of which, the OP never said what kind of needlework is being framed. Isn't needlepoint done on a buckram fabric also "needlework"? And if so, how can one make a generalization that the nylon fasteners are any more abrasive than the coating used on the buckram? Or stronger than the material used to make the buckram? When lacing those kinds of needlework, I would think that the nylon fastener would spread out the "pull" on the canvas more evenly and would put less stress on the canvas than a single thread.

Do the framing judges assume that the awful tape put around the edges (by the needlepoint shop) to prevent fraying of a buckram canvas has been removed? Or, if the framer doesn't say that they removed it, are they marked down as well?

Re: Tagging/lacing Hybrid technique



Pat - is this true? What is your opinion of this technique. If you do not "endorse" it, why not? Here we have an instructor (who you are obviously hostile towards) showing your product in his class as an alternative technique -

Is it possible that preservationists do not "endorse" this technique because they do not "know" about this technique?
Can anyone show me literature from AIC or any textile conservation publication that specifically says that the use of nylon tags is bad or not recommended? Or anywhere in a professional textile conservation publication or discussion board where it is even discussed?

I'm not sure where Jim got that idea. I found the method to be much more difficult to do than my own method but I know that there are some who like it. I just don't think it's easy to do or any more archival than my own method.

 

[Mike Labbe]

This discussion is from 11 years ago

 

[FramerDave]

But one of the things that many overlook is the fact that thousands of framers can't be wrong.

Yes, they certainly can. For years "thousands of framers" were totally fine with cardboard backings. For years "thousands of framers" thought using surgical tape for hinging was great for preservation mounting. There's even a name for it: argumentum ad populum. Oh, and this was the case eleven years ago when this thread started, and it's still true today.