Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
I never referred to any overcoating product or process as poop, s__t, or other reference to excrement and I resent your saying so.
You're picture framers – not artists. I'm sure that a lot of you would be offended if I (being ignorant about framing) lectured you about how you should frame your pictures and run your businesses.
That come to approximately 1,100 to 4,400 prints from what you are saying. That is a lot of one image.... almost an open edition IMHO beyond what might be actually sold from my experience as a dealer as well as an appraiser, for a non "High Street" self published artist. What another artist might do is not relevant to the issue. What the industry considers proper relevant is.
Again, I disagree with that concept. At least they should be called "monoprints" if there is intentional changes in the image. With your marketing plan, not print all at one time and with possible changes in paper - ink - etc the go beyond the scope of what the industry calls a limited edition or most state laws about multiple prints and possibly Canadian law - to which I have no knowledge.
WOW!!!
That is about the only response that comes to mind after wading through this mess!!
RM, ya might want to read my signature line
Robert, is this perchance your art?
http://robertmontgomery.artistportf... robert montgomery&secret=141&artist_id=11783
Robert, in our world it either IS ARCHIVAL or it is NOT ARCHIVAL. Same standards apply in limited edition prints. Close enough falls into the NOT category on both cases. We understand you want to do what you want to do but we are explaining that your desires do not match your terminology. We have conceded that you can do as you wish but you have not met standards by doing so.
I will draw another Grumbler into this thread who is a professional print maker/publisher. He will continue to educate you on the printing piece of the puzzle.
Jay the difference is that reputable publishers follow the laws of all of the states and list all editions that will ever be produced at the get go. Your literature must list that there will be a total of 7 different editions with the varying sizes and total quantities. If you sell only in your gallery you must adhere to Kentucky law. Sell on the internet and you are now marketing and selling in every state in the country.
One thing for Robert to consider is that since he brought this discussion to this public forum...
Any high end gallery that would display Robert's work will search the net for his credentials and learn that his standards are extremely low for the price point.
Robert, do what you want but it is time for you to move on from this arguement that you will never win. The more you disregard industry standards here the easier it will be for galleries to see that your pieces are not produced to the standards of the high end market. The only difference between what you sell and my own Giclees on canvas are you put a numbering system on yours then charge 5 times what I do. Digital artists have turned the LE market into a joke and the consumer has caught on to it.
This is a common misconception that outsiders don't comprehend. Modern digital prints of the high quality (such as mine) cannot be made with relative ease. How could you compare top-flight giclees such as mine with potato prints, or one- or two-color serigraphs?
I've read such malarkey from other ignorant outsiders. "It's easy to be a photographer" they claimed haughtily. "It's easy to be a desktop publisher," and "It's easy to be digital artist". Whenever you hear such know-it-all criticisms, it's always from people who have no serious, real world, experience at the task that they claim is to easy. How much money have you made as an artist publishing repro giclees? None to little, I'm sure, or you wouldn't have such a condescending and foolish attitude toward my profession.
Robert
There are tons of artists that produces prints. Off that run of identical prints they pull say 10 off the stack and calls them "Studio Proof". Ohh man these are pricy because there are only 10. Then they grab a stack of say 20 off the pile and call them "Publishers Proof". There are slightly less expensive because there are twice as many but only a few people will ever own a print from this "edition". Then they grab a few hundred off the pile and call them "Artists Proofs". This is a very profitable colloection of prints. No they don't fetch the price of the previous two "editions" but there are ton of em and they cost about 50% more than the regular edition. Then you're left with a 4' tall pile of prints that are called "standard numbered". There is no difference in any of these prints except the price and how they were numbered. Now print this same image on canvas and invent 3 or 4 editions out of thin air and release them. Now if all that sales out then just change the size a few inches and shove them out the door like wallpaper! I guess legally they are transparent about how many prints are out there. That doesn't make it "right" in my eyes.
This is a several year old tradition. Most everybody (framer/art gallery) knows exactly what I'm talking about. The art market has self destructed because of these games of artificially limiting art for the sake of the all mighty dollar. Is this new to you?
Robert says that not numbering his images would devalue the work. That thought primarily exists in the this art community. There is very little historical relevance to that statement. All art, music, concerts, plays, cd's, dvds,..... is limited by some natural factor. Including artificial limitations does very little or nothing to increase the value. Rather it be through marketing, value, demand, or quality sells. Bad art even in a limited supply won't.
Robert is clearly just here to argue with anybody over everything they say.
So please explain what's not archival about this scenario:
• my Epson 7600 printer
• laminating Epson canvas with Premier Art's Eco Print Shield (roll-on)
* gluing the canvas with Frank's Fabric glue
* to Kraft-colored three-sixteenths-inch-thick brown gatorboard
• and perhaps applying volara to the rabbets, as Rob suggested. (Don't know anything about volara yet.)
Robert
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Robert, is this perchance your art?
http://robertmontgomery.artistportf... robert montgomery&secret=141&artist_id=11783
Was thinking the same thing. He can't afford a 9900 yet he is apparently one of the premier artists and printers out there.
So far, all i hear is talk from him and nothing to back up his assertions of proficiency.
How about offering a link to your website so we can all see for ourselves your artistic abilities.
This thread is starting to get moderator alerts, requesting it to be locked down and/or for the original aggressive poster to be banned.
For the most part, participants have shown an unparalleled level of courtesy and respect. For those of you who haven't, and you know who you are, can we try a bit harder?
Thanks in advance
Mike
Forum moderator team
I never referred to any overcoating product or process as poop, s__t, or other reference to excrement and I resent your saying so.
Hm many of us got into framing as an extention from our art careers. I became an artist after framing for a few years. Even those that don't "do" art used to make a great deal of money "dealing" in art.
We are told daily how to frame pictures by know-it-all-artist. Is hardly an insult anymore. It's more comical than insulting.
I would be offended if a framer (being ignorant about art) told you how to run your business. I've not seen that here.
I hope you've gotten the answer you were seeking. Did you ask the "fine art" group how they sell canvases? Did anybody suggest gluing them to some glorified cardboard? That is what you're leaning toward isn't it? I grew up in an art gallery and owned a shop for almost 6 years. I've never recieved a stupid package like that from a publisher yet. Who knows you may on the cutting edge of something new? Lemme know how that works out for ya.
Don't go outside when it's windy!the quality of my writing clearly indicates my level of proficiency.
Mmmmm..... 'Expert' - 'X' could be the unknown factor and a 'spirt' could be a drip under pressure!An astute person can figure out if someone is an expert by analyzing what they're saying.
First and foremost it seems to me extremely unfortunate that the tenor of this thread has degenerated to something akin to a schoolboy pissing contest. I wonder if the same abrasive tone would continue if this was a face to face discussion as opposed to being via a semi-anonymous electronic forum. It is a shame that art and framing professionals cannot conduct a discussion thru this medium with more civility.
Secondly concerning this item ...
... it is inane for anyone to discuss as "archival" the merits or demerits of a given approach without a clear definition of the meaning of "archival".
Some thoughts to consider in relation to this specific question include, but are certainly not limited to:
- There are two varieties of Frank's adhesive. Whichever you are considering unless the chemical composition is understood and tested with regards to longevity it would seem foolhardy to postulate that they are "archival" in the SAA default sense, even though they may be. Presumably the pH neutral variety is buffered, which at least for some period would neutralize the acetic acid that PVA produces. Whether or not this is "archival" would depend on both definition and testing.
- Ditto for Gator. My understanding is that Gatorfoam is a combination of polystyrene and a polymeric impregnated veneer, and that because of its unique composition, there are no conservation standards that specifically apply to Gatorfoam....
This is ridiculous. I'm not complaining to a mod because I've participated in this thread already. That has worked to my disadvantage in the past. I will say, though, this guy isn't even communicating anymore. He's reading 2 and 3 day old posts and just bashing everything said by everybody.
The suggestions he was given is typical daily fare around here. I can see where Robert has been registered a good long while but I can't tell that he has spent much time seeing how this board flows. Even though the suggestions he was given is common place this never ending barrage of bashing he's doing now is quite atypical for the G.
It's very clear that he doesn't enjoy our company or decorum of this board and yet he hangs out. Obviously this has been a very negative experience for him but stays only to bash and thrash. I feel something should be done to squelch this as I don't see this ending well at all.
I second Jays comment.
Robert, just drop it and go do whatever you want. It's apparent you'll not play nicely and more than a few decided to call you out on it and now you get all uppity with your fancy words trying to show us all just how smart you think you are.
By the way, did you just buy that new dictionary?
How can you see to find those words when your nose is so far in the air, as you look down at the rest of the world with your continuously condescending attitudes towards pretty much everyone on the G.
Most of the ones responding to you actually love to fight it out here so you will neither win nor convert nor will you get the better of them with your rapier like wit so it's best that you let it go.
Seriously, just go.
Don't go outside when it's windy!
Mmmmm..... 'Expert' - 'X' could be the unknown factor and a 'spirt' could be a drip under pressure!
Given the absence of long-term scientific studies re. Gator and the pH neutral variety of Frank's Fabric Adhesive, has anyone noticed deterioration of artwork using either of these materials? If framers have been using these materials extensively for twenty, thirty, forty or more years without noticing deterioration, that would give me confidence that they should be good enough for my end. (You'll probably say that Gatorboard and Frank's Adhesive haven't been around for forty years.)
My end is to have the prints last without noticeable deterioration for at least 60 years – about the same length of time that Wilhelm Imaging estimates that my paper giclees printed on an Epson 7600 or 9600 should last when printed on Somerset Velvet or Velvet Fine Art Paper and framed under regular glass. (I'd even be satisfied with 50 years).
But Rob, Mr. Montgomery said....
Methinks he could benefit from attending a couple of your classes.
This is ridiculous. He's ...just bashing everything said by everybody...this never ending barrage of bashing he's doing now is quite atypical for the G.
It's very clear that he doesn't enjoy our company or decorum of this board and yet he hangs out. Obviously this has been a very negative experience for him but stays only to bash and thrash.
We are told daily how to frame pictures by know-it-all-artist. Is hardly an insult anymore. It's more comical than insulting.
"I would be offended if a framer (being ignorant about art) told you how to run your business. I've not seen that here."
" Did you ask the fine art group how they sell canvases? Did anybody suggest gluing them to some glorified cardboard? That is what you're leaning toward isn't it? I grew up in an art gallery and owned a shop for almost 6 years. I've never recieved a stupid package like that from a publisher yet. Who knows you may on the cutting edge of something new? Lemme know how that works out for ya.
Robert, I am sorry you feel so offended by many of us. This is suppose to be a source of constructive advice, suggestions, expertise, and opinions for everyone who participates. You initially asked about one topic, and as conversations normally do, the topic evolved. It evolved the way it did partly because many of those trying to help you became concerned or disagreed with some of your standards or practices of art and the way you were selling your art. Please realize that most of the comments and suggestions were well intentioned.
Does it not concern you that so many people disagree with your standards or way of producing art? Also, it wasn't just one aspect of your art that people found issue with, but many issues and by many people. And I don't think you can just say that we are a bunch of framers who don't know about art, because many of us are either artists, art collectors, or simply art knowledgeable individuals.
I was personally interested in your standards of limited editions and, while I still don't agree with your way of making editions, I feel that there is a need for a new way to edition digital art, giclees, and the like. A new way that is open to prints being created at different times, sizes, etc., but that also doesn't so closely resemble the traditional method. Again, I am not biased against digital art as a medium, I simply don't agree with how you are producing and marketing your work.
And that's the great thing about this forum, you can get advice and opinions from many people and you don't have to agree to any of it. So why get so upset. You are obviously set in your ways about a lot of things so just ignore the advice you don't like. We were just trying to help.
By the way... Jay didn't make himself a framing god, the Grumble did based on the number of posts by Jay.
There are quite a few other gods here besides Jay.
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