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Are perfect v-grooves possible?

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Montacute, Nov 13, 2008.

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  1. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I should add, that cutting the v-groove is the least of the framers concern. Since it is a multi-layer mat the inner layers have to be recut to get the dimensions correct. At least to my standards! Which is what makes me reluctant to redoing orders. Losing money on a single mat is one thing, but to lose time and money on complicated mats because of my mistake is frustrating! My problem, but frustrating!
     
  2. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Obviously, if she buys a single window mat from her current framer and his cutter is off you're not going to put in a v-groove that looks even with the opening.
     
  3. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Monta, also, I'd suggest that instead of looking for a PPFA framer send an email to the guys at www.wizardint.com and ask them which framers in your area have a computerized mat cutter then go vet them yourself. You know enough to pick a good one.
     
  4. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I use a manual mat cutter, so I could cut a v-groove into a trapezoidal mat and feel relatively sure the groove would look good. On a CMC it would be a different story as alginment issues that I know nothing about, but can guess would crop up. But on a Fletcher 2200, my old C&H 48Plus and even on the C&H 4060 I have used I feel confident I could cut the grooves to be even with the outer edges of the original mat. The problem I have is that I do forget to mark the mat then don't know which side is up, literally!
    Oooh, you're right about that! Slow on the uptake. That's why I'd lose money on the order! I'd cut it, get it wrong then have to eat the cost of a new mat.
     
  5. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    We've all been there! That's ok, we just took in two "modify this frame" jobs that might require lobbying to change the laws of time and space, but for $2k in this economic climate I'm willing to give it a try.
     
  6. Montacute

    Montacute Grumbler

    Here are pictures

    OK, a piece of very good news--I discovered my camera is magically working again! Hooray. Here are some pictures of the v-grooves in question.

    First, this is a picture of the whole thing:

    http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm133/Montacute1/Image1-1.jpg

    Now here is a close-up of the top corner that I think shows a little "hook" on it on the outermost part of the outer groove:
    http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm133/Montacute1/Image2-1.jpg

    And here is a close-up of the opposite bottom corner that I think goes thin on the end and the outermost corner of the groove is not on the same diagonal as the innermost corner of the same groove.


    I hope that made sense. Again, I think the first inner groove is perfect. Opinions, please?
    http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm133/Montacute1/Image3-1.jpg
     
  7. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I do see a slight hook as well as a slight alignment problem when the cut out piece is reinserted. You can clearly see that the 2 edges of the core portion of the groove does not fully meet. That leaves a slight gap. The reason you see a hook in the one corner and not the other is the technique issue that I discussed earlier.

    In addition to that the framer should take the "Burnishing Bone" and run it down the length of the groove in order to smooth the fibers. The bone also assists in the alignment at the corner by forcing it further into position.

    The cutting head on the mat cutter may need a slight adjustment. This is something that is not difficult to do but the framer needs to be careful to not overtighten as it can cause damage to the guide bar. The adjustment is simple and if I knew the make and model of the mat cutter I could be of assistance.

    Should you wish to continue to use your current framer, that individual is more than welcome to give me a call and I may be of some assistance over the phone.
     
  8. Montacute

    Montacute Grumbler

    Thanks, Jeff. I do feel some vindication now. I know I have a fussy nature and just really, really, do not want to jerky. I appreciate being able to do a reality check about my perceptions with some professionals. I do also think it is not very nice that they gave me a redo that had exactly the same problems as I pointed out on the original work. I wish they had told me they couldn't do better.

    I'll go back next week and let you all know what happens.

    Oh, Johnny I also need to thank you for the excellent tip about calling Wizard. I found a couple more names to vet. Hobby Lobby also came up as one of Wizard's clients. I was impressed, but not enough to try there.
     
  9. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    While Hobby Lobby does use the Wizard it is not located at the store. The equipment is at a central distribution center which cuts the frames and mats for multiple locations.
     
  10. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Johnny, did you ever work for Cy and Joyce.
     
  11. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    OK, I saw the pictures. I'm so glad the customer is 3000 miles away from my store.

    I'm sorry, but that's just a bit nitpicky. What's the variance there, 1/64th of an inch? 1/128th of an inch? I know you want perfection, but I'd give you your money back, cut my losses, and rejoice that I don't have to worry about this any longer. I know, that's a bit blunt, but those v-grooves look pretty good. Maybe you aren't being unreasonable, but I wouldn't want to be the poor ####### (getting poorer) trying to meet your expectations.
     
  12. imaluma

    imaluma SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well, honestly I bet that would be easily fixed with a little razor blade and a burnishing bone.

    And I agree, no one should be putting out a redo that is exactly the same as the original. But it does pass the three foot rule.

    I bet if that framer came on here and asked for tips, the product would be perfect! I have seen so much worse, it really was a pretty darn good job.
     
  13. prospero

    prospero SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    This is turning into quite a debate.:)

    These are a few grooves I just did quickly as a demo. The board is Bainbridge Alphamat. Not perfect, but the pic is magnified. The distance between the outer grooves is 10mm.

    Pass.....[]
    Fail.......[]

    (tick appropriate box)

    [​IMG]


    btw. Looking at Montacute's pics, the thing that jumps out is the rough edges at the bottom of the groove. A few strokes with a fine sanding block before replacing the dropout would have fixed that. And maybe a new blade.....
     
  14. Hired Help

    Hired Help SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Interesting thread. I like “picky” customers. Keeps me on my toes! I know I would not be happy with that hooking.

    Can anyone else see what appears to be a large overcut on the inner v-groove in the second picture?

    Clive.
     
  15. Hired Help

    Hired Help SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Prospero,

    Pass. No hooking (or overcuts) that I can see.

    CMC or by hand?

    Clive.
     
  16. prospero

    prospero SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    All done on a manual cutter. C&H 48".

    Another handy tool for making nice smooth grooves is a nice smooth fingernail.:thumbsup:
     
  17. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Frankly looks to me like the outer most fallout may have been put in upside down as the hook on the bottom corner matches the slice in the top corner. If it wasn't a square cut out I'd swear that there was a bow in the top left corner.
     
  18. prospero

    prospero SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Just showing off now.....:D

    Magnified x6. There are imperfections, but all I can say is, "A blind man would be glad to see them".


    [​IMG]
     
  19. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    No, don't know who those guys are.
     
  20. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think she's got a case for a new mat. Then again I spent 3 hours of my Friday night here after hours trying to cut a perfect mat by hand because the Wizard wasn't perfect enough, and it was pretty darn perfect. Been cutting mats for 25 years and it took me 4 manual tries and calibrating and cleaning every freakin element of both the Wizard and then my manual cutter before I got a mat that will pass muster and the original one that was refused had a defect that was less than 1/32" in the top left corner. Top mat reverse bevel, bottom mat 4 ply normal bevel, everything has to be perfect... cuts, overcuts, squareness... so I don't have much empathy at the moment. :) We should be capable of doing such things. Places like Hobby Lobby and Michaels are going to have weeks in between getting new mats for them if they even will do it, we have to go the extra mile.
     
  21. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That v-groove isn't too bad, but it could be much better with just a touch-up.

    Your framer ought to take Jeff's advice and call him.

    Several of us would be pleased to introduce him to the concept of corner-sanding. All it takes to square-up an imperfect corner is a few swipes of fine-grit sandpaper attached to a stick of matboard. Laying down the bevel's peak with a burnisher is a good thing, too.

    He might also benefit from instructions about how to adjust and operate his matcutter to avoid hooked cuts and overcuts.
     
  22. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Is it possible they just gave you the same mats again instead of replacing them? If the problems are exactly the same, they may have tried to pass the same mats off as new ones instead of recutting it.

    It does look like the fall out was put back in wrong. It is possible to clean up those minor hooks by hand with a sharp blade, sandpaper and a bone like mentioned. I check the alignment of my mat cutter with a pencil and scrap mat every time I change the width of the cut.
     
  23. Mecianne

    Mecianne SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    1st....are you serious?

    2nd...I cannot believe this has continued for 72 posts.

    3rd...I cannot believe I read most of them.

    4th...who looks at pictures on the wall with a magnifying glass?

    5th...I am now a bit more thankful that I don't deal with this anymore.
     
  24. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm with you Mecianne
     
  25. janetj1968

    janetj1968 PFG, Picture Framing God

    hmmmm....now here's a magic question no one has asked.

    Did you use Bainbridge or Crescent mats?

    I still can't get a good cut with Crescent and v-grooves would be no exception. The paper fuzzes the crisp cut to oblivion.

    I think if these mats were done by hand then they're looking very acceptable. If they're cut by computer they're not.

    It's bad to have two sets of expectations...however, hand crafted items always have more flaws...its just how it is.

    This is a good example of our evolving market and customer demand. I agree that its not that bad of a groove but in the same breath I understand him wanting it to look better.

    That being said, how big is the thing? I might just cut you one for giving us feedback.
     
  26. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I would bet cash that it is Crescent.
     
  27. janetj1968

    janetj1968 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Me, too.
     
  28. Montacute

    Montacute Grumbler

    Wow! Thanks for all the replies. Paul, didn't I mention we are moving to CA and I thought I had you lined up as a framer. Just kidding! That's OK, I still think your pill avatar doing judo is cute.

    Prospero, I'd be very happy with all those cuts. Clive, yes I definitely saw the overcut but I sure wasn't going to mention it. I've caused enough trouble.

    Anne, I'm pretty sure these are different mats--there was a pulp mark on the first that is now gone.

    Now for the big question--the mats are Crescent rag. The top one is limoge pink. I wasn't given a choice of brands at all when I asked for rag mats. My next order has Crescent rag as well and now I'm worried. I've learned something else here.

    And Janet, the size of the frame is 22X19.

    I'm thinking I want an open-v now. I'm getting tired of looking at closed v grooves, believe it or not.

    I'm currently working a piece of cross stitch over one on 28 count linen. That means I'm doing 28 little stitches to the inch, so I am used to looking at detail. I think most serious stitchers would be as detail oriented.
     
  29. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I must say Montacute, you are one of the most educated non-framers to ever visit this site. Your willingness to reach out for information and advice and even dish out a little good natured humor is refreshing and the reason people have responded so civilly.

    Welcome to the "G"!

    :beer:
     
  30. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I've been using Crescent as well as other brands for 25 years and a Crescent Rag mat is a very nice board. You can certainly get a perfect cut on it, I do every day. However, you can get Crescent boards that behave how the previous posters describe if you use 4ply museum boards. The standard rag boards behave fine.

    This is, of course, in my opinion. But I certainly can provide perfect mats with them. Don't stress because you are purchasing Crescent branded boards.
     
  31. Luddite

    Luddite PFG, Picture Framing God

    YUP,I`d complain....PICKY? YES,I AM !!!! 1 foot rule doesn`t apply with me.I have been caught with a low power magnifying glass(Aint`cha glad I do my own stuff,most of you would just kill me.)......Just the OCD artist bit working over time....................L.
     
  32. Montacute

    Montacute Grumbler

    Aw, Dave, that was really nice. Thank you! I'm glad to be here and have felt very welcome, because of all of you. :smiley:
     
  33. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Montacute, the only issue we are raising with crescent mats is that some of us are finding their quality to have gone down hill and cuts have been sloppy. The paper seems to feel like it is ripping as opposed to being cut.

    If your framer has the suspect board he shuld be here with us listening to our complaints. More than one of us has called Crescent to get replacement boards for the bad ones. In the past when I complained about crescent I would get PMs from them trying to resolve the issue.

    More vendors have told their reps to stay off of forum sites, so they appear to us as being non-responsive. But Crescent mats are beautiful mats, of good quality and conservation grade. The rags have, in some opinions, had flaws that makes cutting difficult. This flaw may be hampering your framer's mat cutting more than his skills. The fraying along the edges that need rubbing with a bone makes me think the matboard may be a "squishy" one. Ask your framer to revist the mats and pull out a bainbridge one that is close in color to the crescent. Since the needlework was 19 by 22 he'll need to reorder a mat anyways.

    It the Bainbridge cuts properly for him he should definitely call Crescent and complain. He has "wasted" 2 mats so far and now has a disattisfied customer questioning his skills. And it all could be due to their "inferior" QC Standards. Were your framer a Grumbler he would have been appraised of our complaints about Crescent and might have steered you toward Bainbridge when you cam ein to get the redo.

    How was that, trying to save face for your framer! And being honest to boot!
     
  34. janetj1968

    janetj1968 PFG, Picture Framing God

    The affected boards are the Crescent rag boards, per Crescent.

    Not all supplies were tainted, I understand. I'm glad someone is still getting good boards.

    Those cuts look just like the ones I was getting...the fibers are separating.

    I like Bob's advice--get him to cut a sample from another brand and see if it still has the same problem. Then get them to replace the board if need be.
     
  35. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Also expect to pay a little more if you ask for Bainbridge boards as they charge us a little more for the quality and consistency that they provide.
     
  36. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Argh, well, sorry if they are having a problem. I'm going to go back to my comforable ignorance of the problem... cuz it's comfortable.
     
  37. Montacute

    Montacute Grumbler

    OK, here is the action I decided to take. I sent an e-mail to my framer. I did this because I think I can explain the problem better that way at first. I included the pictures. I told him about the G and Jeff's offer to call him for help. I also said some posters said there has been a problem with getting a clean cut on Crescent rag mats and suggested he call the company to complain and that Bainbridge would be a better choice. I closed by asking if he would allow me to bring the piece in again to find a remedy.

    So, we shall see.
     
  38. Montacute

    Montacute Grumbler

    To let you all know, I got an e-mail back from my framer and we have a resolution.

    He remained nice and said that my standards are beyond what they could accomplish with their pricing structure, since they would have to cut 5 or 6 mats to meet my standards. He felt it best if I look for another framer and he would be happy to refund the cost of mats and v-grooves--$80 plus change. This is fine with me.

    So, now I am in the market for another framer and thanks to your help I have two more vetting questions--Do you use a Wizard and do you use Bainbridge rag mats? Wish me luck!

    Oh, BTW, my framer already knows about the Grumble--said they have been reading this thread from the beginning.
     
  39. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    If you are talking about a colored surface with a white core, such as you showed, you really should be asking for Bainbridge Alphamats. Their Ragmats are solid-color-all-the-way-through (so bevels and v-grooves have no contrast with the surface), and only come in limited neutral shades for the most part. Other than that, it sounds like you have a plan. It should be easy to get what you are looking for.
    :cool: Rick
    P.S. Thanks for being such an interested customer and following through learning the details.
     
  40. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    This has been an interesting thread to read. Welcome to the Grumble, Montacute. One thing I would add is this. If you do go to a new framer, the best way to find out what kind of v-grooves they cut, won't be to find out if they use Bainbridge or have a Wizard. It will be to have them show you one of their v-grooves. By cutting to the chase in that way, you'll save a lot of potential frustration on both sides.

    It's often not so much the matboard or cutter used as it is the ability of that particular person. As shown by Prospero's posts, there are plenty of framers who could cut you a good v-groove with a more traditional style matcutter. Bainbridge mats are good, but so are Crescent, Artique and some others. Wizard is good, but so are the older style mat cutters. The fastest way to see what you're going to get is just to ask for a sample from the start. Even if you have to pay for it. And in the interest of avoiding a lot of headaches on both sides, you might want to take this one in with you and show it to them. That will allow them to see how particular you are going to be and decide if they are able and willing to take you on as a customer.

    Good luck with your quest. If all else fails, try buying yourself a matcutter and learning to cut your own mats. You might find that it's something you prefer to do yourself. Most frame shops will be happy to help you choose mat colors and sell you the uncut boards.
     
  41. Lance E

    Lance E Member

    A Gunnar with a 13 blade will cut perfect V-grooves in Cresent mat. If you came in here explaining your past problems we would offer to cut an example on some scrap for you - possibly we are a bit far to drive though.
     
  42. Luddite

    Luddite PFG, Picture Framing God

    THANK YOU!!!Yeah,there is nothing at all wrong with technology,but there are some "dinosaurs" out there that can and do cut V-grooves on manual equipment. That said it would probably be easier to find a good groove among the more modern equipment users....Dinosaurs can be rare. L.(I like the Leopluridon myself...)
     
  43. Bogframe

    Bogframe SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Ditto for Brooklyn, I cut a nice one myself!

    I respectfully disagree, I'll put up my v-grooves cut on my Keeton mat cutter against any Wizard, Gunnar or Valliani out there.

    I like a "picky client. You're spending your hard-earned money to get what you have in mind, we're here to produce that in exchange for your money.

    Bah!
    I see them, and it's an issue of blade depth and posture.

    Prospero, those are as good as they get...I'll even say they're as good as mine!

    I'm built along the lines of a Brontosaurus, myself ;).
     
  44. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    There is nothing wrong with Bainbridge mats or Wizard Computerized Mat Cutters. However, I would not suggest that you limit your potential framers that way. My store would not meet your specifications, because I use a Valiani CMC, and I use Bainbridge and Crescent alphacellulose mats interchangeably. Regardless, I could cut your perfect v-grooves using Artique mats and my manual Fletcher matcutter.

    The point is, many framers could meet your expectations for perfect v-grooves without a Wizard CMC or Bainbridge.
     
  45. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Seth, if Montacute ever sees your book, it'll be "Katie, bar the door!".
    :cool: Rick
     
  46. HB

    HB SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Re Originally Posted by HB
    There is no such thing as a perfect v-groove - someone could find a flaw in anything! What one calls perfect, another calls OK.


    Very interesting. Likewise, with respect, Bogframe, while Prospero's V-grroves are very good (as are yours I suspect) - (better than mine!) I would not say they are perfect, and neither would one of my customers! In fact Prospero says: There are imperfections, but all I can say is, "A blind man would be glad to see them".

    Thank you for proving my point.

    But very nice work Prospero, and Bogframe (I've seen your work)

    And, for the record, I use a Fletcher manual matcutter, have looked into computerized ones but........we'll leave that one alone for now.
     
  47. Tom Reigle

    Tom Reigle Guest

    I started with this post because it is not true! Jeff, I don't know where you picked up that information but I managed a Hobby Lobby store in Carbondale, IL and I can personally vouch for the fact that we DID have a Wizard inhouse and we DID cut our mats either with the Wizard or with a manual 60" C&H Advantage Pro. They may have changed their corporate procedures since I left in 2005 but your statement according to my experience is false and not one to be taken as a policy of Hobby Lobby.

    Mecianne, I agree wholeheartedly!! I started picking out posts as I went and yours was the first one that made some common sense to me. And I will replyafter touching base with all of this verbal corned beef hash!!

    So, on the basis of brand, now we are to condemn one brand over another and shoot all those who don't adhere to some kind of parameter that may or may not have a thing to do with this particular case?

    Well, let me be the first to pop the "civility" bubble! I find this customer to be very picky and demanding in presenting her complaints with no reasonable evidence to back those complaints up until the very end of this thread. And that, in itself, lends me to question many of the replies that some of you have made to a complaint that most of us have faced in our careers and have dealt with on a rational basis. Instead of screaming "Perfect Cuts" and "There's no excuse" and other reasons why this framer, who may or may not be more or less talented than many of his "judges", shouldn't we all be trying to find out the facts of this specific case that the customer brings to light??? More on that later.

    And I have to applaud that framer for being the most "civil" in this whole silly scenario!!! After all, it is he who is really on "trial" here and he has restrained himself from entering into this verbal food fight through so many disparaging posts and very little support from his peers who should know better than to pass judgement on him without the benefit of knowing ALL the facts nor hearing HIS side of the issue. His response would echo MY response had I been the framer and my years of experience had been called on the line in public for such petty grievances!! Whoever you are out there, I give you kudos for being the true professional in this circus!!

    FINALLY!! Someone with a common sense approach and an answer that shows some sensible rationale and thought process to her answer!!! Shayla, I applaud you on your down to earth assessment of this mess and your rational approach to offering some suggestions that aren't judgemental.





    Now, some suggestions gleaned from my experiences as a professional framer.
    • I wonder why nobody has mentioned such basic things to check as how often the mat blade has been changed???
    • When was the last time that the mat cutter was checked, cleaned, and accurately calibrated?
    • How are the matcutter head bushings? Are they worn, sloppy, or is there any other movement in the cutter head as it slides across the guide bar?
    • Is the framer consistent with his stance and his procedure for drawing the mat cutter blade across the mat board??
    • Is the framer having some personal problems that would affect his focus and attention to detail in accomplishing these V-groove cuts??
    I know for a fact that, if I am not making V-groove cuts on a fairly regular basis, I get a little "off my game" so to speak, I am not as sharp on the stance, procedure and consistent movements of cutting a precise cut such as a V-groove. And one tiny little piece of that procedure that is overlooked may be the underlying fault of repetitive "mistakes" made by the framer. Also, sometimes personal problems or such things as how the economy is affecting my daily business will be enough of a mental distraction to pull my attention away from a focus on the job at hand.

    Let me be perfectly clear before going on any further, I see absolutely no reason for discountingthe quality of the V-grooves cut by this framer! At least not based on the photos that were provided, they look quite within the tolerances of a hand cut groove in a not always perfect piece of mass produced cotton based product. And that is not only with the Crescent brand but with each and every brand of matboard on the market today!

    Regarding the use of CMC's, I don't claim to be an expert in how one works relative to all the others that are on the market today. But I do have some experience with the Wizard and I am aware of the Wizard's shortcomings. That isn't to say that there aren't other competitive brands out there that would do a comparative or maybe even a better job than a Wizard or whichever brand happens to be on the chopping block at any given time. But the Wizard or any other brand, in and of itself, surely isn't the apex of the CMC world!!! If that is the case, why are all the other brands still selling??

    I would expect that an experienced framer (here on this forum) would take into account the skills of the person being confronted and not base their assumptions on the brands of materials or equipment used. I can see some bias in which brands you use, one over the other, but to make a blanket statement that only one brand is the proper matboard to use is ludicrous to say the least.

    To the customer who asked the original question, you have gotten a genuine piece of hand crafted custom framing and you are belittling the fact that a small imperfection exists in the finished product? May I say that a small imperfection is one of the very few identifiable characteristics that separates the machine manufactured junk that we have to deal with on the retail market today with that of a truly handmade object that was made with a personal touch and concern for the design of that piece! If you wanted a "perfect" framing, why did you go to a person who hand makes each and every product he produces?? I find your concerns and your argument to be rather self serving and I question whether your expectations weren't so high that any of us on this forum could maintain a steady and consistent record of "perfect" mats and frames to suit your requirements???

    All in all, I see a professional framer who has handled an otherwise demanding customer with a totally professional attitude and has offered you an alternative to pursuing a future relationship with him as far as his knowing his limitations goes. I would be very thankful, after reading all the repeating points of your vision of a "well cut" V-groove to have you visit one of my competition and take your parameters for mat cutting to them. I have many years of mat cutting under my belt and you have somewhat less experience than that. Yet you come off as some kind of expert that would challenge the work of a professional with no obvious discourse with him or any questions or visits or any other means of working out the problem first hand and you bring that man's work onto a public forum and ask us to be the judge and jury of his work vs. your expectations.

    I don't buy the whole story at all.

    Good luck to you in your search for the perfect mat.
     
  48. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    :faintthud:
     
  49. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Tom......... [​IMG]





    [​IMG]
     
  50. janetj1968

    janetj1968 PFG, Picture Framing God

    No one has said its definitely a problem with the Crescent board but it is a possibility. Switching to another board is logical to see if it eliminates the problem. Myself, I do believe its the problem.

    That being said, I agree wholeheartedly that this framer is nothing but professional. They did their best--its not a bad looking groove. Could it be better? Yes, but its certainly well within acceptable ranges. No one is beating the framer, including the customer.

    On the other hand, I think this customer has all rights to ask questions of other framers. I think they've been wonderful in presenting the problem and have tried their best to present it and get feedback from other professionals. She has presented herself in a very professional manner--I see no problems whatsoever with what she has said. How many times in this industry have we EVER really had a customer take so many initiatives?

    Also, since the framer has been reading this thread from the beginning, they could've presented anything from the other side they wished. They didn't and I feel because nothing extraordinary existed (they knew to check the blades and the machine is in good working order). They were silently sitting back and welcoming input from us without injecting their opinion! Bravo! That's a professional.

    It's my understanding that the framer as well as the customer have came to a mutual decision that they're both happy with. That being said, what's an issue now?

    Let's post for positive effects, not hard feelings.
     
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