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ATG

MerpsMom

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
Anyone fond of--or hopefully, rabid about their brand of ATG? I've used 3M, United, and now Specialty, and had problems with all three. Ditto for the big yellow gun, even with good maintenance. I'm guessing that ATG is inherently irritating, albeit essential. Hope there's something out there we haven't yet tried.
 
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woody

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
A rep gave me a sample of a new 3M ATG that is supposed to be acid free. Came with a card to fill out so 3M can get framers' responses.
 

Lance E

Member
Try keeping the ATG somewhere cold, it seems to make it bearable for me. (3M brand)
 
J

James Miller

Guest
Well, we could try going without it. No, really. Framers survived quite well for centuries before ATG was developed. Sure, it's handy, and it's cheaper than some other tapes. But essential? Nope.

For sticking mats together we could use tapes such as double sided 3M #665 tape or, for archival uses, 3M #415. Both are easy to use, won't migrate, and cost just a little more than ATG when bought in quantity. Another mat-sticking alternative would be frame glue -- just run a bead of it around the perimeter of the opening, and let it dry under weight for a minute or two. Or, for archival framing, starch paste could work the same way.

For holding dustcover paper to frames, frame glue works. It's not as quick & easy, but it makes a better bond. And later, when the frame is disassembled, dry glue is easier to remove than ATG goo. Double-sided tapes would be better than ATG for the purpose, too.

As usual, 3M has done a remarkable marketing job on us. Yes, I use ATG too. Love the stuff.

About "acid-free" ATG: I'm wondering what is the purpose of making acid-free ATG? Whatever acid content may be in regular ATG should be defeated by the alkaline buffers in nearly all matboards, shouldn't it? Surely, 3M and other responsible makers would not suggest that such a pressure sensitive product is suitable for archival mounting. No matter how "acid-free" ATG is, it (and all other pressure sensitive adhesives) will never be suitable for direct contact with any items to be conservation/preservation framed.

------------------
James Miller,PPFA-CPF; PPFA Certification Board Member; FACTS/GAFP Committee Member
 
L

LTownsend

Guest
Hi Cathie - I use 3M's generic brand. Highland #987 High Tack Adhesive Transfer Tape. It's a little cheaper. I think I get it from Larson-Juhl. I also use the yellow applicators. I don't seem to have trouble with any of it. I do put it on by hand when I am doing Kraft paper. I get a straighter line that way and don't have so much of a mess afterward. I don't know. Maybe it's like the weather. Some things you just accept because you can't do anything about them. Maybe I've had similar bad experiences with atg, but don't remember because it's just one of those things. I must be getting more philosophical in my dotage.
 

JPete

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
My first thought was go to the glue but who wants to go back to that. Never ever buy it when it's on sale. It sat in a warehouse somewhere in the south!
I use the narrow 1/4 inch without a gun on fillets. Works great. Order it from MN shipped in a cooler.
 

lindas3

True Grumbler
The tape and guns don't seem to give me much trouble but maybe I just REALLY hated using glue to back frames. Here's a hint for left handers like myself for applying ATG for the dust cover. Dust off the old blue tape gun (I bought a spare for fear they'd discontinue it), hold your pointer finger of the right hand along the edge of the frame and against the tape roller as you apply the tape. After trimming the paper you should have little or no sticky to remove because you've kept the tape to the perfect distance from the outside edge of the frame. This only works for us luck left handed people and only with the old tape guns. Are their any right handers out there who have found a gun that works like this for you?

------------------
Linda
Linda's Antiques, Art & Custom Framing
Sunbury, Ohio
 

RW

Grumbler
I really love this forum. I have been reading it for a long time, but didn't think I had anything good to add until now. I too had a problem with the ATG keeping a straight line for applying dust covers. So, I applied (with screws) a guide, not unlike the one on my dust cover knife, to the side of the ATG. The guide allows me to apply the transfer tape about 1/8" from the edge of the frame as straight as an arrow. Now I use that gun exclusively for dust covers.
 

Terry Ellis

True Grumbler
Very interesting RW. Please explain this dust cover knife. Is it proprietory or your own invention/modification? Some details of your guide on the ATG would be interesting also
 

JPete

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
lol. The old blue atg gun! We still have the old red one. Have a blue also but the red one releases the tape better but the blue does allow you to see what you are doing. Old red is being held together with duck tape.

That dust cover knife.....bought that for $2 probably 20 years ago. Still using the same one, just change blades. Often lefties complain that it was made for righties. It works both ways, just have to learn to turn the frame differently. It's basically an exacto blade on a handle with a side guide. I'll try to remember to bring home a picture and scan it through the e-mail to you.
 

MerpsMom

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
Thanx to all for the ideas. I've tried the cold storage trick but will try it again when getting a new batch. Sorry to trash a supplier, but the Specialty Tape brand has proven to be less than adequate. The gun tape is only so-so, doesn't stick quickly enough, nor strongly enough either, come to think of it. The handheld 1/4" which we use for dustcovers and fillets will only stick to a perfect surface, and we all know there are few of these. The next stop is back to 3M, probably the Highland. The gun.....well, the gun is my cross in life at the moment, so I'll bear it with as much grace as possible (the things you say to it when you're alone!) As an aside, do we all use ATG to stick double/triple mats together? This has come up before, I think.

(Well, yes, it has: just above in James Miller's post. duh. However, what's the difference in the 665 and ATG?

[This message has been edited by MerpsMom (edited 11-15-1999).]
 
A

ajhohen

Guest
Hello. The best double stick tape I use for dust cover is item number #100-1460 from "Specialy Tapes". It is 1/4" wide by 60 yards long. It is hand applied and is very, very tacky. It is called "Archival Transfer Tape". By the case (144 rolls) the price is only $2.53 per roll. If you need to remove the dust cover within 10 days (depending on atmosphere), you can peel it right off. If you try to take it off a few weeks later, it is not possible without tearing the paper off. It is the best I have found and I have been using it for the past 10 years. Try it, you'll like it...

[This message has been edited by ajhohen (edited 11-15-1999).]
 

MerpsMom

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
Is this my problem, then, with this Specialty Tape? It is indeed lifting right away,(within the first two weeks) but that's when my customer notices it isn't sticking and I have to replace it: which sets up the same cycle all over again! What's a mother to do?
 

Terry Ellis

True Grumbler
Thanks JPete & RW. Checked out the site you mentioned, pictures not real clear but get the idea. None of my catalogues here have anything like the Protrim knife, will have to try and fake something myself??? No wonder Im not getting rich - I dont have the right knife! Next problem is the right ATG dont have any of the brands mentioned above either (spose everyone wonders just what we do have here - apart from 'roos)
 
L

LTownsend

Guest
We have used the pro-trim knife and another one similar to it, but a plastic handle. The one I like the best though, is this one. It can be used by either hand without stopping to change the blades since there are two blades in it. The other feature I like about it is that it uses mat cutter blades (we use 1200SE), so it gives me a way to recycle used blades. I think I got these from Victor Moulding, but I think United also carried them. I couldn't find my United Catalog, but when I do, I will try to get the number.
 

JPete

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
MM, have you used the 969 atg? Better get it right the first time!
 

MerpsMom

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
Yeah, I think that's the one which ended up with my looking like a skit in a Carol Burnett clip. First it got on a spare mat sample too close to the package, from there to my sleeve, elbow, and back to the design table. Stuff could be used in commercial construction: needs to be labelled with a skull and crossbones.
 
J

James Miller

Guest
MerpsMom:
3M #665 is a double-sided pressure-sensitive tape. That is, it's like double-sided Scotch tape -- it has a transparent tape carrier between the adhesive layers. To my knowledge, there is no dispenser "gun" such as we have for ATG.
 
M

MikeJ

Guest
About the trim knife saga.
I use two different type. One is the same as
LTownsend shows in the picture. Got it from
United. Works good, uses mat blades giving a
second use to them. I modified slightly by
grinding the sharp edge off I think two blades and then putting them behind the blade to provide a slightly wider cut off margin. Did that because I had some molding with a rounded edge and the blade didn't cut the paper back far enough.
I have also modified a cheap plastic type snapoff blade knife. I made a side guide out of acrylic, glued it to the side. It looks much like the protrim knife, but with the snapoff blades, you can get a new sharp point anytime. The blades are cheaper too. I am working on getting the design approved for patent possibilities.

Mike J
The Frame Shop
Hales Corners, WI
 

Terry Ellis

True Grumbler
Thanks all, am getting plenty of ideas - may try the glue and cheap snap-blade knife trick.
Next twist to the story, do you guys still spray the paper? Is the tape strong enough to hold it while it shrinks? Wish I could get some of this colored paper,it would seem to add a touch of class. All I have in my catalogues (including the Aussie version of Larson-Jule) is Boring Brown.
 
L

LTownsend

Guest
Well, I'm not sure that anyone is interested, but a promise is a promise. Today I found my United Mfrs. catalog. The item number for the pictured trim knife (it is called a "Hassle Free" trimmer) is 2001. The most current price sheet I could find at the moment, is from 1997. I can't imagine that it is not outdated, but the price listed in that one is $4.05. It is described thusly: "Trims dust cover quickly and accurately, without buying blades! Tool uses your mat blades and pays for itself in time saved and in using recycled blades. Uses blades from current FLETCHER 2000/2100, C&H, LOGAN, C.I.A. Mat cutter or United's No. 3433B Blades. WORKS FOR BOTH RIGHT & LEFT HANDERS."
 
S

Scarfinger

Guest
I have been out in the field doing some training in other shops and I noticed that framers tend to use a lot of ATG. Our shop was spending about 1500 dollars a year on ATG. I wondered if we needed to use so much. I started trying to use less and then asked the others in the shop to use less. We have cut our use in half saving 750 dollars a year which I get to keep because I am the owner. There is no need to run ATG the full length of the mat when joining mats. A few inches on each side is fine. I have been amazed to watch framers use 4 to 5 yards of ATG on a job when a foot or 2 would do.
Scarfinger
P.S. Would this be a good time to ask 3M to sponsor the Grumble?

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited 11-26-1999).]
 

woody

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Sorry to dredge this one up again but I must vent my frustration of the day. My employee took in about 6 jobs the other day that the customer wants updated with various new mats. Some of the jobs have four mats and she wanted the bottom and the middle one changed on some and the top mat on others. Had I been there I would probably have sugguested all new mats. Anyway, these jobs must have been done a few years ago by a framing fiend with a compulsive urge to ATG the world. Getting them apart has been a nightmare. The mats are "welded" together and then the mats "rivetted" (seems like) to the actual art. Whatever we charged, it ain't enough! Thanks for letting me sound off.
 
F

framer

Guest
Woody, you are right in that all new mats should have been sold. I will add a mat to the bottom but that it. I would also think that the labor used to fix the old mats could be more then just cutting new mats.

My two cents...
 

Mel

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Woody: My sympathy. Have a similar situation. The dear elderly lady wants more of the blue to show after nearly a year on the wall--the artist/daughter is coming for Christmas. Well, the blue is the blue core of a black mat which she was adamant about having earlier. So, I'm just going to cut all new mats, this time with a blue mat in the middle to show the 1/4" of blue she wants. At no charge....she is a good friend of my mother-in-law. Sometimes the politic thing to is just let it go.

Happy Holidays

Mel
 

FramingFool

In Corner
Hey, LTownsend .... just got a couple of those spiffy dust cover trimmers you mentioned ..... and yer right: they're terrific ! .... now I've got lotsa extra Dexter 3's for those "wonderful" ovals (dang .. there goes my excuse for not cuttin' 'em.....
 

Terry Ellis

True Grumbler
Have not been able to trace any sources here (Adelaide) for either of the dustcover trimers, are there any OZ Grumblers around who know of a local supplier.
 
S

Scarfinger

Guest
Flat oak moulding scrap on the floor by the saw with a 45 degree cut, a blade, 2 screws and washers, 2 pieces of blackcore for spacers and 5 minutes and I've trimmed backing paper for 10 years with this homemade tool. I also made a left handed version for my daughter. No need to search the world for shiney red plastic.
Scarfinger
 

MerpsMom

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
Just a short update on my atg problem with Specialty Tapes. I called to complain, and they said they had been having trouble making the stuff stick, thanked me for telling them, and sent me a new roll to try. If it works, they'll replace the lot. Now, just to figure out how much less is in the newer roll--and there is MUCH less--so will know how many rolls to expect.

P.S. Through all my virus problems, I'm getting goofy about different setups. Why is the stuff I'm typing right now so LARGE?? Did framer change something, or are my settings screwed up yet still? As if I didn't already know the answer: most of this is probably still screwed up.
 

po' framer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Actually, MM, your fonts look fine on the grumble; it appears that perhaps your monitor settings must have been changed if you're looking at large type on your screen.

Welcome back and Merry Christmas!
 

Terry Ellis

True Grumbler
Thanks Scarfinger, looks like I'll have to do it your way (wasnt that a song sometime?). Seem's the dang things have not been invented here yet. Shame I like shiny red plastic. But why the blackcore? Is there a special reason for this or does this just add an extra bit of colour to compensate for no shiny red?
 
S

Scarfinger

Guest
Hey Terry, where is "here"?
It's been so long I'm not sure about the blackcore but I think it was something about blackcore being denser and crushing less than
whitecore. If you can't have the shiney red plastic how about one of those classy new redcores?
Scarfinger
 

Terry Ellis

True Grumbler
Hi Scarfinger,
Here is Adelaide South Australia.
So the blackcore is practical rather than esoteric.The redcore sounds promising, a touch of the Ferrari about it, but at about $30 a sheet I will have to keep thinking VW, I won't hold my breath waiting for a customer to let me talk them into using some just so I can get some free scraps (I'll keep it in the back of my mind though)
Wish I was as busy as most of you on that side of the world seem to be, but I will get some time over the next few days to experiment. Will let you know what colour scheme I wind up with. What is VW's official colour?
 
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