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Opinions Wanted ATM deposit lost

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by dee230, Apr 18, 2009.

  1. dee230

    dee230 Grumbler

    I'm having a problem with my bank and wanted to know how anyone else would handle this.

    2 months ago I made $480 ATM depost at my branch. A few weeks later I get a call from an employee and she says that my and the other deposits made on this day at this ATM have been "misplaced" somewhere between the company that picks up the deposits and getting them to the bank. Did I have any records from the deposit?

    I tell them that once a deposit is credited to my account (I check online plus this was already on my monthly statement) I don't keep the receipts. Also, I don't keep records of who writes checks to me-
    don't get that many anymore but I don't know the names of who does...but I'll go through my sales book and see if any sales jump out that I can recall ( I run a Flintstonesque business-no computers- since I opened 22 years ago. Also a Framing/Needlework shop)

    This week after several calls telling them that I had nothing, they say that since I have no records they are taking that deposit out of my account. They will meet me 1/2 way and give me $200 of it. I told them that as far as I'm concerned this was a matter between them and their pick-up company. Now they're "thinking" about it. But they have to balance their books...yada yada

    Right now that is alot of money to me and I'm not willing to accept this. They have record of my deposit, when I made it, the transaction number and everything else the deposit rec't would have on it.

    Any suggestions? (Other than keep better records!!) Of course I will no longer use the ATM for deposits. Will probably change banks- I've pretty much been made to feel llike a bumbling idiot who lies about how much I deposit!
     
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  2. Janet L

    Janet L SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Not a lecture since you already know you should keep better records, but if the bank has the deposit info, and it's been credited to your account, I don't see how they have a "leg to stand on".

    But what do I know? I'm not in the banking biz.

    BTW, welcome to the grumble.

    Janet Lowry
     
  3. Maryann

    Maryann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    If you haven't already~ start documenting time, date, person and subject of conversations. If they debit your account, you can probably take them to small claims court. A threat to call the newspaper could be in order here. Do they really need $480 of bad publicity. I wouldn't lay down and take it. If they think you're going to raise a stink they'll probably let it go. And then I would 1) change banks 2) keep better records.

    It might be good if you could indentify at least one of the checks that was deposited and check with your customer to see if it cleared their account. It would prove that the bank got their funds.
     
  4. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The machine should have some sort of digital record of your transaction. I mean if you had withdrawn $2000 that day they would have known! They wouldn't be willing to meet you half way and debit your account $1000.

    The only reason they should be willing to question your deposit amount is if you had ever deposit an amount different than the amount you typed on the keypad.

    Got a lawyer? Know any that would be willing to write you a letter? You should be able to claim 3Xs the amount if you have to go to court.
     
  5. couture's gallery

    couture's gallery PFG, Picture Framing God

    document everything in cronilogical order ( include names of people a t the bank you talked to ) and send it to your state and the federal bank regulatory commissions with a copy to the bank president...bet you'll get fast and personal action that way.
     
  6. framinzfun

    framinzfun MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    That stinks. If the bank says that it was not only your deposit, but a few others.... why would they just take half of it away from you? Sounds like their problem, not yours. At my bank (Bank of Amer)... the ATM deposit machine scans the check and i get a receipt with an image of the check... I wonder if their machine does the same thing???? You should absolutely keep hammering at these people, they cannot take money from you.
     
  7. jim_p

    jim_p SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Tell the bank to just take it out of their bailout
     
  8. lstribley

    lstribley Grumbler in Training

    What the bank is saying makes no sense. They couldn't have credited your account without the items already being in the bank..they had to go through their proof department and read the items to ever post to your account. At that point, the images are taken of the items automatically so they should have a record. They also have to balance at the time they run the proof or the deposit wouldn't have posted to your account (old bank CFO here). Think about when you go to the teller desk. The transaction doesn't post to your account until after the bank closes and they process the items that night. Same with the ATM.
    Do not give on this. Ask them how they managed to credit the deposit to your account if they didn't have the items in the first place and then tell them to go back and look at that batch.
     
  9. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    Umm, you arent the bumbling idiot. They lost your deposit. They are insured against this so in all honesty they don't have to worry about balancing their books.

    Contact legal aid in your state if you don't have a lawyer. Call the attorney general and tell them everything that the bank has told you. Move you money out of the bank and into one that isn't goping to fail in three weeks. This bank sounds sketchy at best.
     
  10. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    The fact that they deposited the money in you account in the first place, means they had the paperwork themselves and then they lost it. That's their problem, not yours.

    Why would they deposit any money if there was no transaction or deposit slips connected to it?

    They're idiots. Insist on full amount, else threaten them with court action. They''ll lose in heart beat.
     
  11. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    You not keeping a duplicate deposit slip or POS records isn't a factor here, IMO.

    Unless they are accusing YOU of making a fake cash deposit and then robbing the atm, they don't have a leg to stand on.

    The amount you claim to have put in was transmitted electronically to the host system, at the same instant you made the deposit. They know how much you claim to have deposited, and then lost it after the machine accepted it.

    That's their problem :)

    Mike
     
  12. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    If I understand you correctly, I don’t believe that this is as straight forward as it seems.

    When you make an ATM deposit, generally it is in a sealed envelope, and you key in the amount your are depositing.

    A third party – not the bank – picks up those envelopes and takes them to a central clearing house (probably in a cave in the Philippines) and finally, when the bank is notified that the amount matches your deposit slip, it is credited to your account. It appears from what you said that it is those Bozos who clean out the ATM are the ones who lost the envelope.

    Without any firm knowledge to the contrary, for all the bank knows, you could have submitted an empty envelope and keyed in $480 to try to scam them. The receipt that you have only reflects the amount that you claim to have submitted. Since the bank has no acknowledgment from the armored car people, they have no proof that you actually submitted the money.

    I would still stick to my guns and refuse a partial payment, but, IMO, you have no real proof that you made the deposit.
     
  13. Maryann

    Maryann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

     
  14. dee230

    dee230 Grumbler

    Thanks for the responses! The more I talk to them and about this the more I worry that they will be able to take this money away from me. The bank is Chase and the company that picks up the ATM deposits is Loomis Fargo. Both well insured I'm sure. That's why I don't understand why they are determined to take this money from me and not from their insurance comany! My husband did tell them if they take this back out of my account we would be going to small claim or the state AG about it... have heard nothing since then. (3 days ago) I just want to get this over with...I'm loosing sleep!
     
  15. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bill, theh bank lsot his deposit. The bank is at fault. The bank needs to prove that he lied.

    His history of honest ATM deposits is in his favor. The bank has an admitted issue. They have the fraudulent behaviour (on the part of the pick up company). They are at fault unless they can prove otherwise.

    Turn the tables, they need to prove you lied, you don't have to prove you told the truth, as you always have to them. insist that the matter be corrected or you will close the account.

    Then go open a new account in a new bank and write no more checks on this account.

    Right now they have access to your money. thay can, and probably will, debit your account the $480. Work like they already have. Leave the outstanding amount of the checks you have written plus the $480. and open a new account. Don't necessarily close this account yet, but be prepared to.

    BTW my bank empties the ATM themselves. They block off the machines outside the bank with their cars and they go and empty the machines. The town cops are their with them and they empty it. Ask your bank what the policy is about emptying the deposits. Do they do it or is it done by the armored car people. At my bank the armored car people bring the bank money and take it away, they don't touch the atms.

    If someone at the bank is stealing from the ATMs, well, that person also has access to your account.
     
  16. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Dee, sorry I kept refering to you as "he"!
     
  17. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Banks show deposits on your statement (or on-line) when they are made. They will only indicate tentative status on certain deposits, like large checks or drafts. They will "uncredit" them if a difficulty (NSF or other) comes up later. You can't rely on the "credit" as proof of any thing other than your entry in the ATM machine. They do have a problem in that they have admitted to the disappearance of the day's deposits. The combination of "credit" and the "admission" certainly shifts the burden of proof to them. Their reluctance probably results from their insurance terms and proof required for a claim.
     
  18. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    I would also start making noise about them losing your banking data......your exposure to identity theft because of their mistake and their carelessness with their customers banking information!

    No to mention the loss of the money on top of that.
     
  19. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Chase? TARP money went to them didn't it? They lose billions and try to short you $100's?
     
  20. imaluma

    imaluma SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    What Bill said, you have no proof that you actually had money in that envelope. Deposits through the atm are posted to an account as pending and funds may be available on good faith that the deposit was accurate. I have had a deposit debited against my account the following morning since I had forgotten to sign one of the checks (my mistake). I had already paid bills online the evening before and it had put me in the red until I made it into the branch to sign the check. I started using the night drop box instead, and making double sure my deposit was complete and correct.

    I would consider this a learning experience and be grateful for what they gave you. Not having a pos is no excuse for not having good banking records. It is easy enough to jot down the method of payment with check number on your invoice when paid, and balance a register with written record every night. This will also help protect you from theft from dubious employees. Trust me, I have been witness to this. I encouraged an employer to instate a drawer closeout routine shortly after starting there, and it turned out the "manager" had been stealing cash for years. She would not have been able to (or at least as easily) if this had been done earlier.
     
  21. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    However you do have a track record of how many years of depositing the same amount that you entered into the machine.

    They have the proof that they lost the deposit. Be a good democrat and call a trial lawyer ;) (that was for you Pat! Hope you appreciated the humour attempt)
     
  22. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Shucks...

    I remember when banks actually existed to serve their customers. Now they act like we are the succulent juicy bug they can suck the juice out of any way possible.

    Seems to me if we treated our customers the way banks now-a-days treat theirs we'd have been out of business years ago.

    ...and then, because they are so greedy and incompetent, they are given a by with our tax money. They are not only milking us, but they are robbing from our children and grandchildren before they are even born.

    :mad:
     
  23. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I hope for Dee’s sake that you are correct, but I have my doubts. Technically, it is Loomis that is at fault (and, where would you and I be without picking a few nits? – “negligent”, not “fraudulent” behavior :p ).

    More than once have I received notice from my bank about a “slight readjustment” to my account when I have been stupid enough to transpose a number or two, like $132.45 when I should have written $123.45.

    I think a good track record works in her favor, but it is still a, “She said; he said” kind of scenario, I think.
     
  24. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Well, the neighborhood bank of old got bought up and consolidated by bigger banks. I used Greenfeild Coop that beank Heritage, then People's, then People's Heritage.

    So small town family run banks got bought up by BB Banks. Sounds like the small time bamk operator couldn't compete against the BB Banks.

    Except that I do business with a small time bank. If this were happening to me I would walk in to the branch I do the bulk of my business and talk to the branch manager and it would be resolved fairly quickly. One "Gretchen" would be red faced about the fiasco, She would apologize to me and she would beleive me when I said how much I put in because she would know that I haven't lied to her in the past. I may have, like Bill said, transposed numbers, but I hadn't lied. And the bank would accept the loss as a cost of doing business.

    When the Hannaford Supermarkets had the "security breach" and all those debt cards got compromised the bank, not Hannaford, had to replace the cards and refund the money that customers lost. When the same thing happened because of Heartand, the bank again had to replace my cards. And then there was the TJMax security breach, and others.

    My bank hasn't charged me or any other customer for the lost cards. Now they have lost a series of deposits for otherwise solid honest customers. Why should the customer be on the hook for the bank's error?

    Dee unless your husband made the deposit and forgot to tell you something..., umm was it a check or cash ;) I would talk to the bank manager in person. I keep saying "close your account" but that does entail a lot of headaches, and if you are otherwise happy with the bank staying put is a good option.
     
  25. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    There goes the $480 for the first half hour's fee. :D:D:D
     
  26. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    LOL! no kidding there.

    That's why you sue for 3Xs the loss. 1/3 to lawyer, 1/3 to court costs and 1/3 to the IRS for misc income!
     
  27. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    Sounds like they admitted guilt from the get-go and are looking for the ubiquitous "low hanging fruit" to cover their sorry butts.
    Stick to your guns...they're the ones that screwed up.

    We have scanning ATM's and they are far from fool proof. One jammed while I was making a deposit. The default when this happens is to capture the card and destroy it (shredder inside ATM). I spent quite a while getting that money credited to my account and now I make photocopies of all checks deposited, and get the receipt with the check images on it as back up.
     
  28. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    The other lesson here is to stop depositing at the ATM.

    Go inside and do it in person or at the drive up window. ... and keep ALL receipts!!! No exceptions!!!
     
  29. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Our formerly locally owned small town bank has been bought out and mergered several times over the years. When they started closing branches in some of the surrounding towns, we saw a resurgence of small banks starting up in those town.

    A couple years ago, we moved our business loans to one of those small locals when the now big regional tried to play hard ball with the terms and jack our minimum payment up to almost double. The small local was quite happy to offer us better terms and a lower payment than we already had. I still pay more than the minimum each month anyway since the budget used to be for more. I actually felt sorry for the branch manager at the big bank since the deal was out of her hands and she knew the loan officer we were assigned to wasn't telling us the truth. We were clear with her we were pulling our business but there was nothing she could do to get us to stay.

    Anyway, welcome to the Grumble Dee. Hope you can get your problem resolved. Anyway you slice it, something doesn't sound right here.
     
  30. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    I say if they are willing to split the difference by offering the $200 that is as good as admitting guilt. They are just trying to reduce their losses. Stick to your guns.
     
  31. dee230

    dee230 Grumbler

    This bank was a small local one when I started out there 20 years ago but of course, several mergers later and they're a giant.They have since installed an ATM that scans the checks and gives you a printed image, but I no longer use the ATM (except to take money out of my personal account -- they don't misplace those transaction records!) They are right next door--so convenient, but that's ok, I drive by a small local on my way home every night.
     
  32. canada framer

    canada framer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Bad bank...

    Bottom line is that they are a bank, and banks HAVE ALL THE MONEY RIGHT AFTER THE GOVERMENT!!!
    You tell them that I WANT MY MONEY AND ALL OF IT
    OR YOU WILL GO TO THE NEWSPAPER,RADIO AND TELL THE WHOLE WORLD !!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

    Thumbs down for that bank.
     
  33. Beveled

    Beveled SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Might I suggest that you make an appointment to see the bank manager? Go in and sit and talk to this person about the issue face to face. If you have your documentation with you, and supposedly the manager will too, you can likely resolve this in your favor. Sometimes face to face is the better option, since it shows that you are presenting yourself in a professional manner, and they should too.

    This is not your fault. Speak to someone of authority who can do something about it, and ask all the questions presented here, ie insurance, your statement, online activity, etc.

    I always thought I was being paranoid about not using ATMs or night depositories for deposits. Now I'm glad I do. er. . . I mean don't.

    Good luck and keep us up to date.
     
  34. SportShots

    SportShots CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Visit your local FBI office and file a formal complaint for theft of the deposit. If you do it right(might take a visit to your congressman or Senator also) they just might visit the Bank and ask a few questions. Theft from banks is a Federal offense.

    If nothing else it will put a lot of pressure on the bank to make it right with you and deal with the delivery company.
     
  35. mrframe

    mrframe Grumbler in Training

    There will be a record of the transaction in the bank machine, even if you do not have a copy. Its the banks problem, especially if it turned up on your statement. Insist on the full amount, or you will take them to court. The WILL lose.
     
  36. nikfrz

    nikfrz SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I would also file a complaint with the OCC, and I would tell whomever you talk to at the bank that this is what you intend to do. Banks dont like having to deal with OCC complaints.
     
  37. freakquency

    freakquency SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Seems the deposit was made without the actual 'deposit items' included .. this means the person making the deposit either put your items in a different vender's deposit or made of with it .. 5 finger discout style... FBI should be informed.
     
  38. UTA KIRCHLECHNER

    UTA KIRCHLECHNER CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    ...AND HAVE A PARTY YEAR END WITH YOUR MONEY!!!!:bdh:
     
  39. BILL WARD

    BILL WARD SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    years ago when they 1st were proliferated the ATM's I thought they were going to be a pretty good idea,,,,THEN I read the 'contract' where it said they would NOT be responsible for lost or incorrect deposits! Guess what I didn't do! I also never took paycheck-direct deposit from my last 2 employers for the same reason---the bank wished to NOT be held responsible for missing money! Isnt THAT nice? I dont wish to be held responsible for that missing reframed van gough either but you can bet I will be!
     
  40. mayos

    mayos MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I'd certainly stand my ground and make sure every transaction and every conversation was documented. I don't think you have a lot to worry about. Can you imagine what the bank stands to loose if you make public the fact they lost $480 of your money, admited they lost it, and then deducted it from your account???!!! They certainly don't want that type of publicity ever.....especially in the economic situation we're in right now and the public sentiment.
     
  41. imaluma

    imaluma SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    You could also ask your customer(s) for a copy of the check(s) after it had cleared, as proof. That is, if you had any record of who and when. If said checks never made it back to your bank, then they must have not gotten back to the bank that the customer wrote it from, and if it never came out of their account, then they might be willing to resubmit payment.

    But then again it might be too little too late.
     
  42. cjmst3k

    cjmst3k SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    If the money is in your account, can't you just cash out the remainder, then open another account in another bank and deposit the funds there? They can't remove what they don't have access to...
     
  43. framinzfun

    framinzfun MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Contact your local news station or newspaper.... they love this stuff. And the bank does not.
     
  44. BILL WARD

    BILL WARD SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'd also email obama, & company!

    did they not just give the banking industry BBBBIIIIGGGG bucks???
    dont think they'd be too happy with these clowns....I'd also, if you have NOT already, change banks---they have proven how much they think of you as a customer, yes?
     
  45. dee230

    dee230 Grumbler

    I did talk to the bank manager last week- he was the one who told me all about balancing their credits and debits and that they would do me the favor of extending the credit of $480 a little longer but it would have to balance out soon (presumably by removing it from my account). I made the comment that I was a small (very small) business and this was a lot of money to me and I'm sorry but I didn't
    just get a bail out of millions from the government. This more than slightly ticked him off! Said he was offended! I agree I shouldn't have brought that up but I was starting to loose it and it just came out!
    Now that I think about it-- I'm offended that he was offended!
    Will let you know how this turns out.
     
  46. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It would be tempting, of course, but if you tried that, the offended bank could go after you for fraud since you knew full well that there wasn’t any money in the account. In that case, you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on in court. And, if I’m not mistaken, it would be a federal not a state crime.

    Plus, it would damage your credit rating.
     
  47. mayos

    mayos MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    But hasn't the bank credited the deposit to her account? If they truly intended to remove the deposit from her account it should have been done immediately, not days and weeks later. They have a responsibility to run their business in a manner that's professional. Allowing this deposit to remain in her account and continue to "dance" around the issue isn't professional. I believe there is a federal law that allows them only a certain number of days (I believe 3) to hold funds before posting them to the account. If I remember correctly years ago there were banks not posting checks (other than memo posts) for weeks to make sure the check cleared. I think federal legislation stopped this practice and now allows them a certain period of time to hold the check before they finalize the transaction.
     
  48. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bill, that is why I was suggesting leaving enough in the account to cover the $480 and any outstanding checks.

     
  49. Beveled

    Beveled SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think you have no choice but to fight this Dee. If they were behaving in a professional manner they would have an established method of dealing with such errors OTHER than blaming their customers. It scares me because I use Chase bank, and I've not had any problems, but I am overly cautious about depositing.

    I don't know about such suggestions as the FBI and so forth, but you should find out how to protect and vindicate yourself. This is just WRONG. They may be depending on the idea that you will not pursue it, because lawyers cost alot of money, but there's small claims court.

    I wish you the best results.
     
  50. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The biggest thing that bothers me is that this is CHASE! This isn't Corner Bank and Trust, it's Chase.
     
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