Buying a CMC and need help!! Wizard or Valiani?

ttlpckg28

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Posts
3
Hello,

I went to the Las Vegas convention a couple weeks ago and decided that I am going to buy a cmc. I am interested in Valiani or Wizard 9000 and have no idea which one I should buy or if they are pretty much the same machines. Most of my custom framing work is building shadow boxes for sports memorabilia. I didn't have a lot of time at the show but I got to see a little bit about each machine. The one thing that I liked about the Valiani over the Wizard was that Valiani could cut strips of foam core without a 45 degree angle which is big for me because I use foam core for a lot of my shadowboxes. I don't want to make my decision just because of that one reason. Does anybody have experience with using any of these machines? Anything is helpful, thanks, Tom

Tom@legendsofthegame.com
206-478-0971
 
Just as stupid of a reason is to ask yourself "which do you speak English or Italian"?

Sounds childish, and I'm sure that I'll get slammed by a certain Midwesterner if he can dig out from the snow ....... but with a machine that costs more than a Yugo or some Kias...... I want to know where I'm getting "service" from.

With my HP computer, I know if I call Customer Support..... I am being talking to Hamib in Mumbi.
If I make the same call on my Crackberry, I can talk hockey with Stella in Ontario, Canada.

When I'm hurting because I'm trying to make the dumb CMC do what I know I made it do before, but it's been 7 months ago..... I'm talking to Carl, or Dani, or Steve (if it's Sunday naptime) in Mukilteo (Seattle), who actually get a paycheck and are employees of Wizard.

Yes, I have a dog in the fight... because they have become friends over the years; but I'm also not alone in that department.

I just switched banks after 14 years because Chase bought WaMu and the people who have known me for many years... . are now constrained from doing business based on our relationship.
So, my big question would be "what kind of relationship do you want, too"?
 
Randy, you seemed to pick it up pretty fast..... or was that just because Nicole was kicking you under the table? :D
 
I have the free "decoder" ring from my box of Kracker Jax. :D
 
You should also consider a Gunnar CMC. It would be a shame to discover later that you missed out on something very worthwhile.

The F1 Hybrid is an awesome machine. It cuts bevelled and vertical cuts without having to change heads or anything else!
And that's only one of the outstanding features!
 
Since you can't decide between the two, I'd suggest you go a notch better and go Gunnar.

Just what Baer wanted to hear!
 
Dawg gone auzi - you beat me!
 
But, if you get a Wizard you don't save your files as .FU2.

LOL!!

Actually, I have an older Valiani that I bought use. The previous own had fun changing the defult settings. I was able to get help NO PROBLEM. I talk to a very nice gentalman in CT ... can't think of his name at the moment.

I believe that they have an office in Gainesville, FL. Either that or their salesman lives there. He's also a nice guy and you might want to have a chat with. I think he has experience with both machines.

Just my experiences. When it comes time to get the latest and greatest (hopefully soon) I will be getting a Valiani.

What ever you decide ... I bet you LOVE it.

Good luck, Mary
 
Previously I used a wizzard 5000 and I currently use a Valiani 150 (those are both older models, so I know each company has probably made several improvements over the last couple of years) but from my experience of using a wizzard for about 5 years and my Valiani for the last 3 years.....

-Wizzard is easier to use. their software is custom created to the way framers design mats, if you do a lot of specialty cuts and letter fonts and custom shapes, wizzard can do it all right in the main screen, with Valiani you have to get trained in correl draw then import the files.

-Valiani gives you a better cut. because it cuts from the front there is never any over cut lines (this one for me makes Valiani the better choice- it might be a little less user friendly but the cut is all that matters in the end)

-When I had a wizzard we were replacing parts every few months, whether it was somthing small like air hose clamps or major cutting head parts (I dont know if that is typical, maybe ours was a lemmon)

-Ive never replaced a single part on my valiani

-Its a lot eaiser to change the blades on wizzard than valiani

-True valiani as a company has changed hands recently, but they still have the same people working for them, Brian Simmard has been with them when they were a fletcher company and is still there to offer great help

-the only exception to my cutting statment..wizzard cuts ovals better

Hope that helps, when I first switched to Valiani, I was cursing at it every day because I was used to my wizzard and changing always takes adjustment, but now for what I do (mainly just a bunch of standard rectangle cuts) Valiani has been great
 
Welcome to The Grumble, Tom.

Gunnar, Valiani, and Wizard all make good machines, and all three of those companies have competent technical help, parts, and service available throughout the USA.

Most framers would say the model they use is the best, because most of us have used only one of the current models, and maybe an older one previously. Very few of us are qualified to compare one currently-available model to another. So, responses to your inquiry here amount to little more than a popularity contest.

I suggest you consider the features most important for your needs. For example, if you need to cut simple mats in a high-production environment all day long, your best choice may not be the one that perfectly cuts one-of-a-kind specialty mats with every possible decorative feature.

The manufacurers' representatives may be able to help you locate framers who use their machines, and would allow you to watch them operate, or maybe allow you to cut a few mats. If you were in Central Ohio, you would be welcome to visit and try out my machine.

No matter what the framers here might recommend, only you can determine which CMC is best for your needs.
 
-True valiani as a company has changed hands recently, but they still have the same people working for them, Brian Simmard has been with them when they were a fletcher company and is still there to offer great help

A little correction...Valiani has not "changed hands". It is still the same company under the same ownership and operation.

The only difference is that Valiani CMCs are now sold in the USA through ITW/AMP instead of Fletcher-Terry. That's a marketing change, not an ownership change. Yes, Brian Simard and Chris Heffter are still with Valiani, and Nico Valiani was still smiling and demonstrating his CMCs' new features at WCAF.
 
I'm at the same place that the OP Tom finds himself.

I'm looking to purchase my first CMC machine and I went to the WCAF show with hopes of finding what I was looking for.

I spoke with quite a few folks about which machine they recommended and why. I heard the same thing about buying from a company that's US based for reasons of service and availability of parts.

Others, that currently have Wizard machines, suggested the Valiani. I was told, 'If they were to buy a CMC today, they'd choose a Valiani'. They credited cutting from the face, the smaller margins around the perimeter and the ability to cut smaller more intricate designs as their reasons.

One thing that tilted me towards the Valiani was when talking to a fellow Grumbler about my choices and he pointed out that in order to get the latest and greatest features from Wizard (he currently has the 8000 model) you have to exchange the machine for a newer model. Where in the Valiani, you just have to buy new heads.
 
A little correction...Valiani has not "changed hands". It is still the same company under the same ownership and operation.

The only difference is that Valiani CMCs are now sold in the USA through ITW/AMP instead of Fletcher-Terry. That's a marketing change, not an ownership change. Yes, Brian Simard and Chris Heffter are still with Valiani, and Nico Valiani was still smiling and demonstrating his CMCs' new features at WCAF.

Thanks for the correction, that is what I meant, I just didnt want to write it all out
 
Let me start off by saying we are working on a valiani purchase of our own. If you are a small framer, wizard is in the running, if you do more volume, it is valiani and gunnar. There are other things to consider like integration with POS system, future upgrades, usability of the software and other long term items. Being able to see the machines in action helps.

Here are some points off the top of my head

Service
- If I remember correctly, Valiani has service now from CT.

Cuts
- When calibrated correctly, I think that all brands and machines should have corners that are good (from my engineering standpoint).
- A double mat, face cut on the valiani (it can back cut too) will cut the second mat a bit on a double mat. There is debate on if this will be a problem in the future and how much, if any, local climate can have on the cut.
- The 40 degree bevel (it is really 50 and they really need to change the name) will cut tighter because it has less blade drag to deal with
- The front cut feature on any machine does cause the back, blunt side of the blade, to indent the corners a little bit.

Note: although we got a CMC last summer, it was the first one I saw in action. The second one(s) were at WCAF this year. Experience wise, I do not have a lot with CMC's. I do however, from a technological point, understand a lot about CMC's and how they work (could probably design and program one from my robotics and mechatronics classes from college). I am getting good at narrowing down what brand of machine mass produced mats are from and if they are front/back cut (which I could not do at all before the information at WCAF).
 
Not sure what the big deal is about cutting from the front. But Wizard has always had that option of cutting from the front or the back. I personally like cutting from the back.
All cutters are built different you chose the CMC for the components that match your demands, service & price.
Most companies have more than one model.
I have an Wizard 8500 with a 9000 coming soon. I have yet designed anything that the 8500 would not cut. The design software has been easy for me. As far as speed & volume, Fasten your seat belt & hire a second shift. I have cut mats for hours with out stopping did not even seem to tax the 8500's servos capabilities.

Only reason I am moving into a 9000 is I wanted the pen attachment.

As far as support & service of course there is no good time for a break down. But Wizard has always been very good at responding. They have a support group with some employees with over 14 years experence.
At this point I would not change brands.
This may have helped
 
Gumby, is the #9000 model, pen attachment, the only new feature? Is it really worth the $2000 price difference?

While I think an official marketing blurb about the 9000 is forthcoming, I figured I'd just chime in here because I've seen several people ask about it.

So, the 9000 now adds the ability for a pen, intricate cut (steeper bevel), and deep cut cartridges (foam core) in addition to the standard 45, straight cut, and 3 debossing cartridges. The clamps are improved to accept thicker material (and they're quieter now too :)). And the head has some significant quality improvements so the cartridges stay truer and last longer. Better, faster, stronger, etc... all in all it's a pretty big upgrade.

Also, the new MatDesigner 6.0 is shipping with it, and it fully integrates all the new cartridge options to all the templates and other content for the machine (including all new Brian Wolf content... there's other gems in there but since it's still in beta I can't be totally sure what the final release will have when it ships).

Thanks..
 
While I think an official marketing blurb about the 9000 is forthcoming, I figured I'd just chime in here because I've seen several people ask about it.

So, the 9000 now adds the ability for a pen, intricate cut (steeper bevel), and deep cut cartridges (foam core) in addition to the standard 45, straight cut, and 3 debossing cartridges. The clamps are improved to accept thicker material (and they're quieter now too :)). And the head has some significant quality improvements so the cartridges stay truer and last longer. Better, faster, stronger, etc... all in all it's a pretty big upgrade.

Also, the new MatDesigner 6.0 is shipping with it, and it fully integrates all the new cartridge options to all the templates and other content for the machine (including all new Brian Wolf content... there's other gems in there but since it's still in beta I can't be totally sure what the final release will have when it ships).

Thanks..

Is there a 'Retrofit' option for 8000/8500/8500e owners to get the functionality of the new 9000 ?
 
I have a Valiani and love it. Would not consider anything else. Brian for tech support is great. The cuts have been wonderful. love how I am able to take images into corel draw and convert them and cuth thme out for some real custome work. Been selling alot to locat store to sell to the tourist.

Dan
 
Dan, I agree with you. I'm creating custom designs for quotes and verses, including flourished letter serifs, scrolls, clip art and other dcorative features, cut, debossed, and drawn in multiple colors on matboard.

The current-design CMCs will do amazing things. Being able to cut, deboss, and draw on mats greatly expands our design capabilities, especially with a powerful design program like Corel Draw X4. Fortunately, it is compatible with Gunnar and Wizard, as well as your Valiani CMC.
 
For my two cents, I say Wizard. Tech support has been great and at times very patient. When I was shopping at the trade show for a cmc I almost got a Fletcher. I love what I bought and never had any issues with the machine and as it turned out it was the operator.
 
Jim is correct you can design in corel draw & import it to the Wizard also. how ever everything I have needed I have been able to do in Wizards integrated Path trace which is I believe just is VCADD for dummies.

The clamp system on the 9000 awesome... you know those silent compressors these clamps are even quiter than the compressor.
I used the pen attachment to do a complex oval design & then I cut the oval with the 90 degree blade worked seemlessly...... Really cool.

Someone asked if the price difference between the 8500 & 9000 was worth it.
I say yes. 8000 the 8500 the 9000 are three different CMC's each one has it own useful features you should look at what you want/need to do.
Here is how I looked at the wizard CMC's. The 8000 gives you the things that will let you do basic cutting + features to enable you to still be as custom as you may want to be. 8500 gives you all of the 8000 features plus the speed & the 90 degree outside cutting . 9000 gives you all the 8500 features plus the features Wiz Steve pointed out.

If you don't hear from me as much it is because I am busy breaking in a new cmc, designing & cutting more mats.
But you can call me.. anytime
 
Tom,

Here is a completely biased response as I work with ITW/AMP Valiani.

Beyond being able to cut the foam core at 90 degrees for your shadow box work, you can also cut the foam core with a bevel for fabric wrapped mats (if you do those as well). Additionally you can the the 3/8" gator board which is a great option which again the Wizard won't cut.

I know cutting from the front was addressed but the biggest benefit to cutting from the front is the ability to pre-assemble up to 3 mats and cut them with perfect reveals for each level. Not only does this save time, but it ensures the mats align perfectly because the are "pre-aligned".

As for the tech support, that is covered out of CT so no need to learn Italian. All spare parts are shipped overnight from the US as well. That brings up another point which is the extended warranty that is available from ITW/Valiani. You can get an additional 3 years of warranty for under $2000 which is considerably less than Wizard offers.

Regarding our Mat Stylus head (for drawing French lines etc. on mat board), our head allows you to use any type of drawing pen you like, I am not positive but I believe the Wizard system is restricted to only certain brands or types of pens. We were flattered that Wizard saw the benefit to a "drawing head" and introduced their version recently (similar to following us with interchangeable blade angles), but we know from experience that the ability to apply constant pressure to the pen is critical particularly when drawing farthest away from the "home position". You will see that thick lines become thin and thin lines virtually disappear if proper pressure is not maintained. No doubt they will eventually get this part figured out, but it is my understanding that this was an issue at WCAF.

Perhaps the most significant item to consider is the difference in engineering philosophy. The introduction of the interchangeable head system was a quantum leap for CMC's and since our award winning technology was introduced, both Wizard and Gunnar have moved towards their own versions of this technology. However, neither has the "open platform" that will allow for even greater expansion of technology. Wizard introduced the 9000 so they could incorporate a "drawing" head, I don't believe Gunner has drawing capability yet. When we introduced the Mat Stylus head, customers with our Mat Pro interchangeable system were able to simply buy the new head, not buy a new machine or try to retrofit their system. I think this is important to address because in all likelihood as we introduce new technologies, it will come in the form of a new interchangeable head, but if Wizard and Gunnar continue to try to follow our lead, they may not be able to retrofit their systems to accommodate similar technologies.

Hopefully, I have given you additional things to consider beyond just cutting foam core.

Edd Pratt
Business Development Consultant
Valiani
 
...the biggest benefit to cutting from the front is the ability to pre-assemble up to 3 mats and cut them with perfect reveals for each level. Not only does this save time, but it ensures the mats align perfectly because the are "pre-aligned".

Mr. Pratt, I wish not to be disagreeable here, but I believe the biggest benefit of right-side-up operation may be the ability to ink and deboss the top mat, then cut the multi-layer mat, all without lifting the clamps.
:thumbsup:

Disclaimer: I love my Valiani and was an early tester for the Mat Stylus.
 
Getting back Tom's original question -

Please allow me to make an observation…

In general, everyone has a bit of pride, and no one likes to think they have ever made a mistake….

Also, for many business owners, the decision/commitment to invest in a CMC can involved quite a large amount of money. As a result, many CMC owners suffer a bit of “emotional blindness” when it comes to the predictable “their CMC” being better than “the other brand of CMC” feelings and thoughts…. So, in my opinion, it is not going to be easy to get a truthful, up-to-date, comparison on brands of CMC’s on a forum like this, without having emotional passion & pride behind some opinions.

For example: every parent likes to think (and hope) that their child is “gifted and attractive”… and no parent likes to be told that their child is “average and ugly”…. so they choose to remain "psychologically blind" to the truth.

Many times in the past, I have read posts by “expert” framers, who like to speak with an assertion of being “an absolute authority” on CMC’s, confidently dissmissing other brands, yet I strongly suspect they have never really compared, seriously looked at, or played with other major CMC brands.

Some “expert framers” also have a certain "close relationship" or affiliation (….or wish to!) with a particular manufacturer of CMC’s, as I openly do with GUNNAR.

Further to this, I feel that some CMC owners also may suffer from a bit of “Stockholm Syndrome”, which is a term that was coined after a terrible hostage drama in Stockholm, where after many days of capture, the hostages ended up defending the kidnappers, and no longer recognized the truth about their tragic personal situation.

I have noticed that some CMC owners even “bend the truth” in public defense of their CMC, because it means so much to them on different emotional levels.

I’m not one to kill passion or emotion in people, because I think we all need to see a bit of “spirit” to motivate us all…. however I sincerely think this needs to be kept in mind when listening to feedback on forums and such like this.

Jared Davis -> a sales consultant and technician for GUNNAR in Australia

PS - at the end of the day, if you are stepping up from a table-top matcutter, then ANY brand of CMC will make a huge difference to your business.
 
I strongly recommend you try the various machine's software before making a decision!
 
Just like with POS software, ask for a demo CD. Most will be glad to mail you a demo version of the software, which is the same as the real thing but cannot cut.

Mike
 
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