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Certification

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by FramerDave, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. mik

    mik SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    If it is a negatively scored test, the number of questions answered becomes the base. ie if there are 150 questions and I answer all 150 but only get 75 right, my percentage is 50%. But if I only answer 75 and I get 60 right my percentage is 80%.

    That is why I asked (albeit wrongly) what is total score possible. I should have asked how many questions are on the test.
     
  2. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    PPFA benefits PDF, page 2


    PPFA benefits PDF, page 4

     
  3. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    A negatively scored test is one where an incorrect answer will count against you so you are better off not guessing unless you feel that you have a good chance of being correct. (If you were to guess and get all answers wrong, you would have a negative score, not a "zero".)

    The CPF test requires a minimum of correct answers (104) out of a total of 150 possible questions to determine pass/fail. Incorrect answers do not negatively affect the score. That means answering about 70% of the questions correct to pass. (Please check my math).

    When I took the test, I did not get to see my score sheet or know which questions I missed - I do not recall if I was even given the number of correct answers, though things may have changed for the current test. I do recall that when one of my employees took the test and did not pass, she was told by how many questions (one) - which was then reversed as one of the questions was challenged.
     
  4. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    Ok then, one more time.

    It is not a negatively scored test. If you don't answer a question at all, it is counted as wrong.

    Highest possible score is 150/150, or 100%.

    Passing score is 104/150, or 69.33%
     
  5. mik

    mik SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Thank you FramerDave for the clarification. I asked because most of ETS designed tests are negatively scored..at least they were when I took the MCAT for grad school.
     
  6. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Mik,
    The CPF exam has nothing to do with ETS and ETS has nothing to do with the CPF exam or PPFA, just in case you are thinking that way!
     
  7. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I know, that's what I and several others are suggesting change. There are many of us that are running successful businesses and therefore do not prioritize certification or PPFA membership. Look at the current Association of Professional Realtors advertising. This is not to get more people to buy houses it is to get more realtors to join their organization. Even successful shops want more business. If the PPFA made the commitment to advertise to my potential customers I would join and be tested in a heartbeat. Just from the responses that I have seen to the recent threads about the PPFA I think that the organization is missing out on a huge pool of framers that do not yet see the value in membership. I think these people can be won over and the organization will be better for it.
     
  8. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Realtors make it nearly impossible for those who don't join to be successful. Since the Realtors own the MLS (Multiple Listing System) you must be a member to have access.

    I used to write tests for the real estate and mortgage licensing entities so I have a very good idea of how these programs work. Tests usually have 10 times the number of questions as possible single test questions. 150 test questions would be randomly drawn fro 1500 total. New questions are added and old ones deleted over time since training companies such as the one linked earlier use professional test takers to accumulate possible questions for study.

    I have also written and taught the prep courses in the past for those industries. Basicly someone with expertise is writing this stuff for a fee so it can be sold. My guarantee was pass the first time or receive a refund and sit through the prep courses as many times as needed untill you do. I had a 100% success rate with testing that had a 60% fail rate statewide.

    Another note is there is an opposing group to Realtors and they were the first. Realtist is the name and I bet nobody ever heard of them. They were the group that was ineffective so another group popped up and became the success story.
     
  9. mik

    mik SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer



    Osgood, I have to disagree. Are not the questions given to ETS who then designs a test to ask the questions?
     
  10. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    Ormond- I thought the CPF test was originally designed by/with the ETS and in the past scoring went through ETS.

    When did it change? Who does the scoring currently?
     
  11. wvframer

    wvframer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    FramerCat,
    There is no disagreement about missing a lot of framers. The question becomes how to "win them over."
     
  12. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The entire content of the CPF exam - the exact wording of all questions and all possible answers, and the sequence in which they appear on the exam - is written by the PPFA Certification Board. The rules and instructions also are written by PPFA.

    My understanding is that ETS only prints the exam booklets and the answer sheets, and tallies the scores electronically from the forms.

    That's how it was when I was involved, but if the exact procedure has changed recently, how would it matter? Questions like yours never came up when we re-wrote the exam a few years ago, or at any time during my years on the Certification Board.

    If your concern is that ETS controls the content of the exam in any way, or the rules by which it is administered, rest assured that PPFA is in control.
     
  13. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Greg,
    Thanks for the openning to frankenthread a little more. I think you know my position is a lot like many other framers. The PPFA (with some exceptions) is not very welcoming. At the local level several competitors of mine are members and I am wondering if I am being brushed off because of it. After our last conversation I was inspired to contact the president of the chapter I would be affiliated with via email. That president is a grumbler and I don't want to call anyone out or make it seem like they did anything wrong. I know that the members have their own businesses to attend to and may not have time to give me an in depth answer. My question was about insurance (which I heard about through one of these threads). At the end of my brief email I asked for any information on the benefits of being a PPFA member. My question was answered satisfactorily but I was given no further information. I was hoping to maybe get an invite to the next meeting or a; lets get together and chat about it, or maybe some contact information for another member that is near me and would like to give me some insight into what it's all about. I am not criticizing the chapter president I know it is a lot of work. There was just no effort to make me or my questions feel welcome.

    I think that a good start at bringing in new members would be to make framers feel welcome as if they were a reluctant customer in your shop. I wouldn't just answer their question and send them on their way. I would do my best to make them comfortable enough to buy that frame right now. Making the customer do the extra leg work almost never makes the sale.

    Sorry, anonymous PPFA chapter president. I am not holding anything against you. Don't respond publicly to this and nobody will make the connection that it was you without a good amount of research.
     
  14. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Sorry about my mistake. I was thinking of the site that had been posted where the CPF exam is listed as for sale.

    I got my initials mixed up and was confused!
     
  15. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    Multiple choice papers are easy to mark - maybe a sheet with little apertures (there's probably a word for that) is dropped over the paper and you count the amount of ticks that appear in those apertures.

    I don't like multiple choice tests, I was an instructor in the Army and took several courses on instruction - and I know framing is not 'the Army' and I've forgotten most of it anyway - but on the MOI (Method of Instruction) courses, several principles were hammered, like 'never ask 50/50 questions' (and I realise there are more than two answers to choose from on this test) and 'never ask questions on practical skills' (and I don't know if any are asked on this test)

    In the first case you won't know if the answer is a guess and in the second, describing how it's done doesn't mean you can do it, ever have done or ever intend to. Just ... show me you can do it!

    In theory, and theory is fine as the test itself is a theory test, you could get 100% by guessing, the odds would be high but the borderline passes and a few above those will surely have some correct guesses, which will mean that some successful candidates are not actually qualified.

    Another problem with tick tests is that you could be pretty sure of an answer and if given no choice would give it, but then when you see the other possible answers, you become unsure.

    You either know the answer or you don't, but if asked for it in your own words there may be more than one correct answer and definitely more than one way of giving it, just like there would be more than one incorrect answer, which would be difficult to mark.

    I lke the idea of being the only CPF in UK though, or if there are already any, the only MCPF, I could market the pants off that. Then again I could market the pants off the fact that I'm only one of 3 PFGs in the UK, neither abbreviation would mean diddly to my customers unless I wanted to elaborate; for the CPF I would but for the PFG I wouldn't. I could make up my own abbreviation and say I'm the only one ..... I could say I was having a 50% off sale but really wasn't, I could say what I like (I know, I know), that's marketting!

    I run a one-to-one framing course a few times a year, no big deal/earner, I enjoy it. But I'm thinking of offering training with a view to taking/passing/preparation for the GCF test and/or any of its advanced modules, but I don't think I should do that without being a GCF/GCF adv myself first.

    I might like to offer to do seminars/workshops at FATG or suppliers' events and I know that 'GCF' or 'GCF (adv)' or 'CPF' or 'MCPF' after my name would help my plug to them. So these qualifications are definitely something for me to think about, but not for my own shop/business. We had 126 people through the cash register (we call it a 'till') on Saturday and 83 today, that's sales; not people through the door, or orders.
     
  16. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes, that would be a great help to everyone in the industry, wouldn't it? Could you be a little more specific about what you mean by "commitment"?

    For PPFA to launch an effective consumer-awareness campaign in national print and broadcast media - effective enough to change the general perception of consumers about framing - how much do you think it would cost? $50,000 a month? $100,000?

    Just for the sake of argument, let's say PPFA could accomplish the task for 1/2 of what a big-box craft store spends on advertising their version of framing. Anybody know that number?

    As soon as someone figures out how to pay for it, I guess PPFA would be delighted to make the "commitment".
     
  17. EllenAtHowards

    EllenAtHowards PFG, Picture Framing God

    Not so anonymous any more. It was I. I figured that you were getting the invitations to PPFA events on flyers being distributed by our supporting suppliers (Larson, CMI, Turner) and knew the schedule. To make up for my being less than welcoming, I would be honored if your would be my personal guest at our next get-together, which is our Banquet on Feb 19, probably in the Fair Oaks Mall area. (our original schedule has just been SHREDDED due to so many circumstances). You will meet a lot of really nice people, many of whom are members. You will probably even win a door prize. (We usually have a lot of door prizes at the Banquet)

    If my answers to your email were not as they should have been, I take full responsibility. I will not bore you with the details of my life, but I should have not been so "answer the question only" about your emails, and for this I humbly apologize.
     
  18. wvframer

    wvframer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    There are as many ideas of what a trade association "should" do as there are framers. The PPFA's priorities, like any other organization are determined by the membership.

    For the last decade or so that has been developing meaningful education and certification programs. I wasn't there, but know that it takes a lot to bring a diverse group of business people to consensus. These were long-term commitments toward long-term goals. They were within the reach of the budget and talents of the association.

    By any measure, the association has been successful in meeting these goals and maintaining standards. It takes hard work to keep the certification program current and meaningful.

    Marketing these programs is up to the individual. The assessment to the membership to roll out even a very limited ad campaign would be breathtaking.

    Whether these were the best choices only time will tell. But it is worth noting that although the membership is not always in agreement, they support these long-term goals.

    Just as it was possible for Mr. Chips to go to Washington, one person can make a difference. If there is something you would like to change or see addressed, there is an established mechanism for getting it on the agenda.

    There is no magic answer here. It is all long-term hard work by a group of volunteers.
     
  19. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    Any chance we could stick to certification and not make this another PPFA pro/con thread? It's been a pretty civilized discussion so far.

    I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion of the MCPF.
     
  20. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Jim, those are good questions. Has anyone looked into costs? Does the PPFA have a budget that can support it? I don't know anything about the PPFA or it's budget. That is why I am reading these threads. I don't know better what to do than anyone else. Maybe all of this has been discussed within the organization. I just don't know enough about it.

    Ellen, thank you for the invitation. I will do my best to fit it into my schedule. Something that can definitely be useful to you is to know that I order from all of the distributors you mentioned and in the last 14 years I have never recieved a flier from any of them about the PPFA. You might want to check with your contacts at each of these distributors.

    Framerdave, sorry for hijacking your thread. I thought my questions were loosely related to your topic. Now could you just give us the exact questions and answers to the test, and let us take it for free? That should get enrollment up.
     
  21. ken

    ken True Grumbler

    study material.

    Why doesnt the PPFA offer all of the study material on line or at least on an inexpensive CD. I mean if they really want to help and encourage framers to take the exam make it easier and more affordable. Why make it expensive and difficult in todays tech world. Just my thoughts.
     
  22. wvframer

    wvframer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    One reason everything isn't available online is that the study materials were produced by a number of different people and organizations, each of whom holds a copyright.

    These materials also change periodically as more current works are published.
     
  23. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The Study Guide and all reference materials are available at no cost from your PPFA chapter's library. Borrow them any time you like. Or, you may want to assemble a library of your own, which would be much more convenient for future references. Framing books are generally inexpensive.

    Expensive? If you relate to "today's tech world" compare the CPF or MCPF credentials to some computer or IT certifications: "A+Certification" for computer repair, which costs $128, plus 3-5 days of required courses at $300-$500 per day, plus "related training supplies" at $40-$175. Total cost: $1,068 or more.

    If you compare the cost of earning the CPF to the cost of remaining uncertified, consider that the recommended learning process would introduce you to details about materials and techniques that might save your framing business hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars every year.

    Making the exam cheaper would not make it better. There is some cost to administer and facilitate the exams, and to maintain all of the essential records of certifications dating back to the beginnings of the programs. Would you consider the CPF exam a better investment if the price were reduced by, say, 20% and there were no permanent records kept? Beyond the raw costs of the program itself, the CPF and MCPF revenues help to pay other costs of operating the association.

    Difficult? Everything is difficult to some extent. Would there be some advantage to making the exam easy? Would "dumbing it down" make it better? Some framers who already know all they need to know (as far as they know) might say that learning more about framing is too difficult. But others who enjoy the process of learning would also enjoy the rewards of their greater knowledge and expertise.
     
  24. frameconscience

    frameconscience In Corner

    The exam doesn't seem exessively difficult. If anything, it's too easy. You need less than 70% for a passing grade and if there's 4 answer choices per question, you should get 25% right even if you chose your answere randomly. Eliminate a few of the obvious duds and...
     
  25. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    ...and there is an average 60% passing rate for the exam.
     
  26. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Not for $350 I dont...... Its freaking INSANE, like I said in my 2nd post that everyone glossed over. By the time I pay for traveling to take the test, the test itself....... its be easily $700......... TELL ME PLEASE...... how I'm going to make that back.
    The nearest PPFA is WI or IA....... 200+ miles for me for EVERY MEETING.So no...... Its not GENERALLY inexpensive.....

    I understand the hard work that framers have put into creating this test. BUT...... I still find it ridiculous..... that you are being testing on procedures...... that you dont use EVERY SINGLE DAY...........

    So whoop de doo...... your certified in museum qualitly framing that you MIGHT actually use once in your life ...... sorry...... not worth it to me.
     
  27. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    1. One more time: You can take the test online. No travel, except maybe to a school, library, or some quiet location where the test can be taken.

    2. For those interested in taking the CPF exam, the PPFA offers the L. Thomas McKeon scholarship annually. It covers the cost of the exam and includes a complete set of the recommended study material. Free. Well, it will cost you a little time and maybe a stamp to mail in the application.

    By the way, please don't take this as an attempt to persuade you to become a CPF. It's quite obvious you have no interest, and that's fine. I posted this information for the benefit of others and to help clear up misconceptions.
     
  28. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    If you pay your $50 fist year membership it is only $225 + 50 = $275, so it pays to be a member, also study material is free through chapters, you are not forced to buy the books, plus I told you I would loan you the majority of them...

    After all the studying I did I learned a lot that now I now applies to many jobs I get in.
     
  29. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    You're not the only one who feels that way.:kaffeetrinker_2:

    Still, if you actually wanted to earn the credential, you could probably recoup your investment within a year or so, just in small savings of labor and materials you would learn in the process of studying for the exam. Or maybe not, depending on how you use your expertise.

    And then there's the possibility of winning that McKeon Scholarship, but you have to apply for it. And you would still have to study. If you think it isn't worth the money, then maybe, for you, it isn't worth the work, either. Certification isn't for everyone.
     
  30. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Hey I replied to you!

    Don't overdo it on the certification though. You're not being certified in museum quality framing. You're buying some books, reading them, and taking a multiple choice test: something your daughter does every week at school. I think it should be harder too for all the emphasis they put on the credential.

    I might take it online. You won't have to travel but you'll have to find a proctor. I was going to go to my old high school to ask a teacher to do it. He wouldn't charge me directly, but I'd be making a donation to the church of probably a couple hundred dollars for his time.
     
  31. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    Another framer could also serve as your proctor if he or she is a CPF or MCPF and has no stake in your success. In other words, not your employer, employee, mother, best friend, etc.
     
  32. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think your Find A Framer is broken again. I searched for a list of CPFs in an area around me and it gave me 1523 worldwide members. And I'll admit it when I'm wrong and that's a lot more than I would have thought you had so I'm impressed.

    I did notice that it lists all the MCPFs first, then all the CPFs, then all the regular members. So I think that if you're wanting to be listed in this kind of thing then it's not a good idea to take the CPF and stop there. It's kind of like that new Tru Vue sticker, "Hey look I'm the 2nd best choice!" Unfortunately it takes a few years to continue. But if someone is into this I think they should go all the way.
     
  33. KaraK

    KaraK CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Johnny, I think you clicked on the wrong search button. (Because I did it too first.)
     
  34. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Thank you little bunny!

    I'm glad I messed up though it was very interesting.
     
  35. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Actually, it's quite a bit more than that. Many shops have multiple CPFs, but only get listed once.

    Some non-member shops have CPFs, but don't get listed in the list you have.

    I don't have the exact number, but I'd guess that isn't even half.
     
  36. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    "it takes a few years" was true in the past.
    I believe (Dave?) the current criteria to submit to sit for evaluation as a MCPF is that you pass the CPF - you've been in business for (forget the number, but you qualify 5?) years, and you have taken a recertification class.

    So, technically, you can take the CPF exam and immediately register for a recertification test, then at the next opportunity sit for the MCPF evaluation.

    I would be careful about thinking you should "just go all the way," though.

    The MCPF is a more demanding, more costly (time and $), more rewarding effort that is more for the framer than a marketing tool, IMO.
     
  37. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So the benifits for having a CPF...... or MCPF..... is bragging rights?
    Is that what I'm getting from all of this? :shrug:
     
  38. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God


    It kind of sounds like it.

    You would have gained knowledge if you didn't already have it, that would be a good thing.

    I was once on my way to taking the test. After acquiring and reading all the material, I decided I didn't need the 'bragging rights'.
     
  39. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    It may be what your getting, but I don't think that's all it is.

    First, whether you like it or not, you learn things in studying for the test.
    Things that might make you a better framer.

    You also gain some credentials that will improve the view that your customers have of you.

    I know many of you don't believe it, but when you have the CPF certificate framed on the wall, customers ask about it, then they tell your friends. You don't have to spend a dime and it will give you "street cred."
     
  40. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Not exactly. The CPF and MCPF programs represent the most comprehensive, professionally developed, peer-reviewed, up-to date, self-directed educational opportunities in the framing industry. For framers who want to learn more about framing and establish a pattern of continuing education, there is no better course of study in the world. The exams only provide proof that one has succeeded in their learning effort.

    Hope not. If bragging rights were the only benefit of the programs, then they would be as useless as you seem to perceive. Actually, many CPFs and MCPFs don't brag about their achievements at all.
     
  41. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    So say you were in what Mr. Miller calls my "strange" situation. And I think he's right it's pretty strange!

    And you have customers asking about your certification because they think it's required. We just had a customer come back with their art today. She was bouncing between me and the CPFs. I won this one, but at the end of the day she elected against conservation framing so I get to frame this one, the non-accredited and less expensive hack that I am.

    So what do you tell the customers? The CPF is just a test? The competitor is misrepresenting? Either way you look more like the liar just trying to save a sale.

    The lawyer advised me that it shouldn't be handled with lawsuits. It's a matter for the Atty Gen. The Atty Gen won't do anything because they'll never get enough complaints to act.

    So, what do you do? I think I take the test.
     
  42. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    This could be the best quote of the entire thread.

    Well put, Jim!
     
  43. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God


    Actually, your scenario is exactly what started me down the path. Competitor was bragging about how great he was and his credentials. His work at times was shoddy enough that the customers felt like he was not 'walking the talk'. Added to that he was a pompous arse.

    The fact that I wanted to be polar opposite of this person was the final reason I didn't pursue it any farther.

    That is my story, your mileage may vary.

    I find it amusing that you ended up with the job! :thumbsup:
     
  44. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I have never once...... EVER in 14 years framing .... have a customer ask me if I'm a CPF...

    Jim, I understand many framers have put a lot of time and skill into making this test...... I'm still stuck on the fact that its NOT EVEN everyday framing thats being tested! I mean..... how many people are using cardboard backing still........ papermats....... reg glass and STILL THINKING its good for the life of the picture??

    I guess my thing is....... what are the benifets?? ...... what do you get out of it that I already dont know..... assuming that you think I have no idea what I'm doing. Besides paying an astronomical fee...... and getting letters behind my name? Does that make me an awesome framer now that I can write CPF??? :shrug:
     
  45. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    So if we have two or three people who will be taking the test and we want to do so online can we use the same proctor at the same time or do we need 3 different sittings or 3 different proctors?
     
  46. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    If you are in the same place you need one proctor.

    When our chapter holds a CPF exam, we make sure we have a CPF in attendance for how ever many show up for the exam.
     
  47. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I tend to be like you. But with this I think if I can say "Yeah, I'm one of those too here's my certificate. They are wrong. Having a CPF frame your picture doesn't in-itself affect the value of your artwork at all." then my argument is way more believable.

    edit: Thanks Cliff!
     
  48. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It is good to stand on the sidelines and read all these opinions. I haven't made up my mind just yet.....

    Like Nic; the money is at this moment preventing me from taking the test. I am not saying it is not worth the money; but at this moment, right now, right here; I can't justify spending this money.

    Having said that; if I would take the exam and get certified; darn sure I would promote the heck out of that...!!!

    So; I keep reading this thread and keep an open mind.
     
  49. wvframer

    wvframer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I spent a remarkable amount of time in school. I did 3 courses and a special study in testing methods and statistics. I studied medieval literature. I taught grammar for some years. I have encountered about every kind of exam there is. Four hour essay exams. Oral exams. Every kind of standardized test imaginable.

    I admit I had been out of school for many years when I took the CPF exam. But it was the most difficult test I have taken in my life, bar none.

    Some folks think that they have plenty of experience so they should be able to pass this test without studying, and maybe they can. But I am not one of them. I had well over a decade of experience when I took the exam. I could not have successfully sat that exam without reading and studying.

    The CPF is not just letters after your name.
     
  50. wvframer

    wvframer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    The lack of a hands-on component to the CPF exam is part of what led to the development of the MCPF. Now that is so hands-on it actually scares me.

    By the way, somebody noted that it might be possible to "game" the system by taking a re-certification course right after passing the CPF, then jumping right into the MCPF exam. Maybe. Good luck with that.

    I don't think there are many out there that could have both the knowledge for the CPF and the acquired skills from experience to pass the MCPF exam after a year. I think that 4-5 year mark is about right.
     
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