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CM Glass

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Mecianne, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    I would say, Jay's explanation makes the most sense to me.

    Which reminds me of the story: "Hey, don't buy that ShopRite, Stop & Shop, PathMark, whatever - cereal, toothpaste, PainKiller, bleach, Olive Oil, you name). It 's not as good as the name brands!!

    Yeah, sure, all those supermarkets have their own huge factories making those products just for them,

    And, the box shapes, exact ingredient, exact weight, exact calories, same taste, etc, just happen to be exactly the same!!
  2. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    My take

    I've been following this thread and I think many of the people who've already checked in have identified what I feel are the possible truths. Based only on what I've read in this thread, here's my take.

    Seems to me that either Micheals is selling a potentially, or actually, inferior product and claiming (if I read it right) that it's the best/clearest glass available. This of course would be ummm, a misrepresentation. What a surprise.


    Tru Vue is trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

    If TV really has enough "defective" glass to supply the world's largest framer, it would seem that it's only by pure dumb luck they could ever make a piece of glass that's good enough for us. How often do any of us get a flawed piece of glass of any type? In my experience, not very often. Is museum glass that much tougher to get right? I don't know.


    TV and/or M's coined the new name to coverup the low price that M's is paying for what is really, good old Museum glass.

    In itself, there is nothing wrong with this as long as that price is availble to other customers who can buy the same quantity. Of course, no one else can do this.

    However, it's possible that it's representation as a product that is "exclusively available only at Micheals," would again be a misrepresentation because it implies that you don't have and can't get it.

    This one could place both the supplier TV, and it's customer, Michaels in curious partnership that might warrant investigation by the DOJ's Antitrust Division.

    I guess a laboratory analysis of a valid sample of the two products may provide some answers, or raise serious doubts.

    Finally, it's possible that there is a logical explanation that no one has yet identified.
  3. FramerPhil

    FramerPhil CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Wait till you see the new CRC!

    Wait till you see the new CRC. I took part in a test survey with TV a months back for the new CRC and it sucks. It's no longer going to be etched with acid, like traditional non-glare glass. Now they are applying a non-glare film instead. The non-glare film has a cracked clear coat finish to it (which looks like cr*p). And to make matters worse they are now applying the UV laminate to the same side. What does this mean? Well now, like acrylic, the customer now has the ability to scratch the glass at their home because the UV side is on the outside. One of the TV product engineers told me that they were doing it for environmently friendly reasons. I don't buy that answer. The TV marketing manager flat out told me "I don't care it you don't by a box of CRC ever again. I would rather have you buy museum glass".
  4. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I don't care what TV or Michael's sells. I sell Museum Glass and make a better profit by doing so. If a customer were to mention Michael's claim, I would simply answer that it is another of their exaggerated marketing claims. What, me worry.

    :D :D
  5. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Pat - We need not be concerned about customers, only non-customers.
  6. Cretin75

    Cretin75 CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    As I mentioned earlier in the thread. I have been getting a lot of flawed pieces of glass. Mostly from the black text stating which side is what. I get random black dots that will not come out. Once in awhile I'll get a red dot. Sometimes right out of the box there's a scratch.

    I've called LJ and complained about it. I just give the driver the piece of flawed glass and I get a credit on that sheet of glass.

    Yes, I work at a BB (they offer me great insurance), so hopefully JoAnn (No "e" at the end) is not getting flawed glass.
  7. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I really see this "CM Glass" thing as a total non-issue. It's nothing more than private labeling, which all manufacturers do. Ever buy Walgreens bandaids or Krogers bandaids? They're exactly the same. And they're not made by Walgreens or Kroger, they're made by one of the other "famous" companies. The fact that Walgreens or Kroger are not claiming "exclusivity" on them is merely a marketing choice on their part. Technically, "Walgreens" bandaids are not available anywhere else, but they don't consider publicizing that a wise use of their marketing dollars. Michaels feels that their private label glass has qualities worth spending money to promote, so they do.

    This is separate from the issue of perpetual "sale" prices that Paul is trying to address. If their claiming 50% sale prices is relative to some "regular" prices, and they don't offer the "regular" prices often enough for them to provide a proper benchmark, that is a specific violation which may be addressed by calling it to the attention of proper authorities at local, state, or federal levels (I don't really know what the laws say).

    Unfortunately, the real problem is that they have large enough advertising budgets to drive home the overall idea that when it comes to custom framing, low price should be the #1 priority, then inferring that they are the only ones able to offer high quality at low price- the implication being that independents charge too much. It's no different than Wal Mart's approach: price is all that matters, implications be damned. It turns everything into a commodity. Michaels is trying to apply this to a custom service, which really is NOT a commodity- at least not the way we like to practice it. Unfortunately, we do not have the advertising budget to explain the difference to people. And, as Bob often points out, many people basically DO consider custom framing a commodity for much of their stuff. It's an unfortunate reality (or is that an inconvenient truth?). All we can do is try to cultivate a market for the finer work we are capable of producing, and try our best to be able to offer cost effective solutions for the lower-end needs that many people have. We are never going to have their ad budgets, so we have to find other ways to cooperate and work together to get our messages out, and to take advantage of some of the abilities that independence gives us for accommodating people's service needs etc. in ways that by-the-book corporate approaches cannot.

    If there are indeed deceptive violations of retailing statutes going on, I'm all for trying to counter them. I'm anxious to hear more results of Paul's research into this, but I guess I'm cynical enough to feel like they have in-house counsel that knows how to operate in a gray area and basically "get off on a techincality". Hope I'm wrong about that.

    :kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
  8. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Okay, Seth sells a 16x20 lite for $126.00 and Micheal's sells it for $54

    Would they be deceptive if they "matched" Seth's market price and then ran a 50% off sale
  9. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Gee, I don't know, what do you think???
  10. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    This may indicate a potentially serious affliction. Take two aspirin, sleep it off, and call us in the morning.
  11. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    The slightly flawed ones sold by CVS or the identical ones sold by old fashioned pharmacies?
  12. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Doesn't matter. Just be careful what you do or say in public for the next few days.
  13. incognito

    incognito Grumbler in Training

    I'm not trying to start anything, but wasnt Tru-Vue your sponsor for the Las Vegas WCAF Framing Convention ?
  14. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    So What! Jim is always forth right! :soapbox:
  15. D_Derbonne

    D_Derbonne PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah, right.:icon11:
  16. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes, Tru Vue is a frequent sponsor of framing education, and some of my classes are among the ones they sponsor. Thanks for noticing.

    Class sponsors are listed in the course catalog for most major trade shows, and on signs outside the classrooms, so you probably saw Tru Vue's name quite a lot at WCAF.

    The information posted above is not exclusive. If you would call Tru Vue, I'm sure they would tell you the same thing they told me and all the others who have called about this new brand of glass. Do you have other information to share about that?
  17. Baer Charlton

    Baer Charlton SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    They sponsored my Glass Cutting by Hand class as well. I was slightly overwhelmed... there was a case of glass and about 50 cutters for a class of 24. That's what I call style.
  18. Mecianne

    Mecianne SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Sales rep stopped by yesterday. He asked if I had been on the Grumble lately and if I had heard about the Museum/Masterpiece issue. I just laughed.

    Well the owner of the company called TV and inquired about this. Apparently not too happy. We were discussing the issue that there is no way there can be that much flawed glass that M's is getting deals on this "Masterpiece" stuff. And what if there is no flaw available? Do they tell customers there is none in stock or does TV just go ahead and sell them Museum glass to make up for the lack of "flawed" glass?

    And exactly what would constitute "flawed" museum glass? I really don't think I would pay a carp load of money for a piece of really clear UV glass with a spot or a scratch on it.

    The more I think about this the more I think I smell a carp. A carp by any other name is still a carp. All this exclusivity is carp. (And so is the fact that c r a p is censored.)

    Contract term in which one party grants another party sole rights with regard to a particular business function.

    Some advertising networks demand exclusivity. Some do not demand exclusivity, but offer a higher rate for an exclusive deal than the standard rate given to non-exclusive deals.

    Most rep firms require exclusivity due to the in-depth relationships they have with publishers.

    A couple of affiliate networks demand exclusivity of their merchants, but other affiliate networks have tried to exploit this by promoting their non-exclusive terms.

    Some affiliate programs demand exclusivity within their product category, but they are exceptions, as few affiliate programs are in a position to make extra demands.
  19. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    Meci, I don't think **** is censored............................

    Yup, it is not!
  20. Baer Charlton

    Baer Charlton SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It's just funner and more meaningful to use the term "Carp".....

    as a kid we used to swear with the word Christothamiunausiousus..... it had more "punch" then "bitter brush".. and it made the church ladies swoon. :D

    It's so fun being naughty, cleanly.
  21. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah Baer, most of us just use carp for the heck of it................
  22. Mecianne

    Mecianne SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well slap me with a carp and call me stupid.

    The glass issue is fishy. That's all I meant to say.
  23. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    fishy fishy fishy

    I think so too.

    It really lets the rest of us in the industry know how TruVue feels about us, doesn't it.

    It was probably a golf coarse deal made between some corporate guys one afternoon.
  24. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jerry ...I don't think they think any less of us and do appreciate indendent's business.

    IMHO it's just TruVue side stepping the exclusivity of Museum Glass issue. They can honestly state that they don't sell Museum Glass, under that nomenclature, to the BB's ...kind of like Clinton's statement about his relationship with Monica Lewinski.

    I don't fault them for selling the glass to the BB's ...hey, free enterprise is alive and well, but would much prefer they didn't cloud it this way.

    I know the BB's buy a ton more and arguably deserve a better price. However, other vendors of premium products that are sold in the marketplace have made a business decision to sell their products without cutting special deals and help smaller dealers by only allowing small discounts for large sellers or refusing to sell to them at all.

    The fine writing instrument market is a good example of this. Mont Blanc, Waterman, Dunhill and others made a decision to not sell to the BB's and carefully regulated how their product was presented and sold and also by whom it was offered ...or they only allowed certain items to be sold. If you bought a Mont Blanc at Office Max or Staples in the US, it was illegally imported and Mont Blanc actively pursued litigation to stop this practice. They also would not honor the warranties on these pens based on serial number tracking.

    If a dealer sold a boat load of pens, they made a lot of money but paid essentially the same for the product. I once sold two hundred #164 Masterpiece Mont Blancs (Retailing at $ 165.00 each) pens to a customer and I paid the same wholesale price as if I bought one. Mont Blanc actually encouraged me to sell at their MSRP but they couldn't legally control the price and I offered a modest terms discount and got the order in a competitive marketplace.

    The problem with the approach I suspect TruVue has taken is that they are not only using smoke and mirrors to confuse people, but are quite possibly making the product less of a premium product. I don't know about the potential for competition in this product, but they could quite possibly leave open a window of opportunity for another competitor to enter the market by tactics that could backfire on them.

    I liked the DenGlas product and considered it a viable alternative to Museum Glass.

    Maybe this isn't really the premium product we all seem to treat it as but we are only paying a premium price for it because the majority of us are buying it in smaller quantities and through distributors.

    In truth, TruVue has lowered the price on Museum Glass. Quite possibly we are benefiting from the large increase in volume and the associated savings they gained from the economy of scale provided by selling the glass under the Masterpiece name!

    I think they need to address these concerns one way or another to maintain their credibility.

    Dave Makielski
  25. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jerry and Mecianne,

    Exactly what is it that seems fishy to you? In this thread, the Masterpiece Glass product is clearly described, including the fact that it is not all defective glass. If you think there is some sort of deception going on, what do you think it is? Care to speculate?

    Would you expect the indusry's largest glass supplier to refuse to sell to the industry's largest retailer? If you were the decision maker at Tru Vue what would you have told Michaels?

    In the real world, suppliers exist to sell their products as much and as profitably as possible. Personally, I am pleased that Tru Vue chooses to keep the name "Museum Glass" out of Michaels.
  26. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Good point, Jim. I have to think about that for a minute ...

    Maybe it is much better than if they actually sold the product under the same name and possibly does give independents some advantage.

    Just maybe TruVue was thinking of us independents when they made the decision to sell to Michael's.


    Dave Makielski
  27. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Has anyone tried to buy Masterpiece Glass from Tru Vue yet?
  28. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It may be feasible for me ...I have Grand Trunk Western train tracks right across the highway from my store.


    Dave Makielski
  29. D_Derbonne

    D_Derbonne PFG, Picture Framing God

    I think the real issue is that this is the same product and M's is claiming that is the best glass available offered exclusively by them.

    That is deceptive.
  30. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well, a certain amount of puffery is permitted, and there is some subjectivity as to what is "best."
  31. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    My experience "secret shopping" both area Michaels tonight is that they qoute your order first with Masterpiece glass and only if you ask or balk at total price do they quote you on something else. Neither store really even explained much about it except to say it was "invisible glass"

    Guess we could all learn something from them and quote MG first. Sure going to sell more of it if we do, which is the experience of those that do.
  32. D_Derbonne

    D_Derbonne PFG, Picture Framing God

    Let's see...it has been stated that this Masterpiece glass includes production runs of flawed Museum glass.

    That doesn't sound like it is the best available to the industry.
    Equal, but not better.

    How is that not deceptive.

    JPaul, your experience would indicate that this is their new default glass.

  33. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Not the best

    But Paul, TV says we are getting the best, therefore their claim is more than "puffery", it's a lie.

    I would think that Truvue would ask them to stop claiming that if we complain loudly enough. I'm refering to any printed material that may state that it is the best. Different story to stop a design person from saying it I guess.

    It's also not "invisible". That, I may let pass as puffery.
  34. pollyann

    pollyann CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Masterpiece is there default glass.

    I quote everyone with it first, and I am surprised everyone doesn't do just that. It's much easier to start high and sell down when needed than to start low and sell high. How do you know your customer won't just say "ring it up" after quoting them your very best? I know of several independant shops here that don't even stock or sell Museum glass, which I find amazing.

    I wonder how your percentage of museum glass sales would increase if you made it your routine to quote it first to every customer.

    Since I have been using it I haven't seen any more flaws in this than I do the CC glass from TV. If it's second rate I can't tell.
  35. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I think quoting Museum Glass on every order could possibly reinforce the image that independent's are expensive and could backfire. I think it is an excellent strategy for Michael's though in most cases.

    I have a diploma I'm doing now for a wealthy client's wife where I was left to pick all the elements of the package out and after seeing this I will use museum glass whereas before I probably wouldn't. Quality is more important to some clients than price and not using the best glass would be a diservice and could actually have reflected ...;) ...badly on me.

    When someone brings in a poster or the like and says they want it done inexpensively it would be a mistake to quote Museum or Masterpiece glass in either establishment. People framing posters do one of two things ...go directly to the BB thinking they're going to be less or call around. If I quoted Museum Glass on this on economy to lower midrange work they'd laugh and hang up and never come back.

    In mid to moderately high frame package or better I think it would be an excellent idea to quote it first and actually is a diservice to the customer if you don't. If you aren't good at reading your customers though and able to interpret their impression you could also scare them away forever. If their expression shows any sticker shock you would need to flow into a conversation of the elements and where costs could be cut if needed. Otherwise that impression of being high priced for equal work would again be reinforced.

    Question ...

    Have we established what the "everyday" price of a 16 X 20 Masterpiece glass is vs. the 50% off sale price? It was brought up earlier but I can't recall a response. Pollyann or Sue ...could you enlighten us?


    Dave Makielski
  36. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    When I first became a framing mgr at M's, we didn't sell much Perfect Vue (the "high-end " stuff available to us at the time), because it was a pain in the patooty to work with, at 32x40, the only available size then. It finally became available in the smaller-than-32x40 lites, much easier to work with, and, as an individual department, we made it our default glass. Didn't even discuss it, unless the price was balked at, and then we'd chisel "down" to ConClear. Our store's framing sales totals increased dramatically compared to the other district's stores, and our district manager had the other framing mgrs call me to find out how we did that. Default to PV. It worked. Usually, the customer asked no questions and just accepted it.

    I default to ConClear now, as most do. Best for the artwork, especially at our high-uv altitude. Interesting to see how it would work defaulting to Museum, and "chiseling down" to ConClear if needed.

    Thanks, Pollyann, maybe we can take part in this "experiment" and learn something from our fellow framers at Michael's.....what a concept!

    Anyone remember the Gas-Wars of years ago??


    I mean - let's do what's best for the art (and our businesses), shall we??
    Need to do some more re$earch on MG, as I've not used it much, because of my cost and my (myth)-conception of how my customers might feel about that "expensive glass".....I'm trying to Think Like a Retailer here....ow-oww!! But now that M's is defaulting to it.....lowering/raising the bar? Don't fight 'em, join 'em?? Whaaa??:shrug:

    I have to admit, I have the TruVue tassle model on the counter, half CC, half MG, and it's an eye-catcher with my customers, but I'm still hesitant to lean that way because of what I have to pay for it and then mark it up. I find myself saying "Yeah, it's great glass, but it's kinda pricey." Shame on me! I think of it as "Cinderella Glass"....reserved only for the "special framing" projects. Maybe it's time to step out of The Box??
  37. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Don't forget Val that your framing will look better too making the entire quality image better. Sets you apart from much of the competition.

    I'm going to have to revisit my pricing and stocking sizes of Museum Glass and how I handle the left over pieces efficiently to maintain usability. Right now I wrap each left over peice in kraft and put the size on the outside and try to keep them in some semblance of order.

    Anyone else have a method that would possibly work better they'd care to share?

    Dave Makielski
  38. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    Dave, that's exactly what I do with the "scraps" (I prefer to call them "less than full-size lites")too, and use them on the smaller orders, usually at no extra charge for the first one, to get them to "not see the difference". I'd also welcome any suggestions on how to better utilize this glass....I really love it, but oy! it's difficult to handle.

    Is M's actually helping us to improve our individual quality of framing a bit?? Hmmmmm....
  39. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    As in most things in life ...very little is black and white ...and good is always present if you look for it.


    Dave Makielski
  40. pollyann

    pollyann CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    I store all my scraps by size between cardboard. It seems to do fine, but since I do have an advantage and stock ALL sizes I rarely have any scrap to keep.

    I found that using cotton gloves when removing it from the case will usually eliminate me even cleaning it. If I do have to clean it I lightly spray a cloth and then proceed with cleaning. (and I mean barely damp)

    No one likes to clean it, so they all finally realized they need to use the gloves. Since almost 1/2 of our orders use it, they might as well get use to it.

    and Dave, you are right, I wouldn't quote Masterpiece to someone coming in asking for the cheapest(it seems to be there favorite word) poster frame they can get. I guess what I was trying to get across was you can't sell it if you don't try, and it is much easier to sell down. Just like mats, I always (well almost) show 3 to start. It's easier to remove one and sell a double mat than to start with 2 and it looks good and then try to convince them to add a 3rd.
  41. Hired Help

    Hired Help SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    When I was a hired help, and was paid an hourly wage, I wrapped all glass off cuts (of a reusable size) in interleaf paper that I kept for the job and wrote the size on the outside.

    Now I own my own shop, I work alone, and shop time is $60.00 an hour.

    5x7, 8x10 and 11x14 get stacked vertically on shelves with scrap mat board cut to the same size in between. When the stacks get as high as the next shelf, off cuts smaller than 11 x 14 are trashed.

    For larger pieces I use empty 24 x 36 or 32 x 40 boxes containing the original interleaf paper and carefully slide the off cuts in between the paper, smallest to the front. I don’t worry about the size until I need to use it. Most of the time it is obvious before I have to measure whether the off cut is large enough or not.

    I put white cotton (disposable) gloves on before handling ANY glass. My aim is to get it from the box, get it cut, dust off the artwork side with an anti-static brush and get it onto the piece without cleaning it. I succeed most of the time, not all.

    Thanks for the idea of defaulting to museum glass. I will start doing that next week to certain customers and see how it goes.


    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Okay lets ban together
    Ad campaign All Independents start to advertise

    DiVinci Museum@ glass.
    Made to the highest standards in the Picture frame industry.
    exclusively on found at your
    Local Independent Framing Establishment
  43. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    That’s a great idea. The problem is simple. We little guys are paying through the nose for the "good stuff". It seems that we aren't even given a shot at this "lesser" product.
    The facts are that "just quoting with it first" would cause the price of the glass alone to be more than most people spend on framing! I'm not going to dig up the numbers right now but the largest portion frame buyers spent in the ballpark of $100. Just tossing $100 - $150 worth of glass right onto the top of the price would immediately shove you out of the realm of what most people spend on framing. I’m guessing that this glass isn’t bumping your tickets by at least $100 is it?

    Perhaps if I could earn some special favor from TV and get a stab at this fancy glass for under $100 a lite, I'd give it a stab. I'm not holding my breath! I suspect they will do as so many other companies do. That is to keep sharpening their pencil to offer the absolute best prices to the giants and sweeten the books by charging us through the nose…you know for the “good” stuff.
  44. Cretin75

    Cretin75 CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Show your best design first. That's what we do at JoAnns, that's what I did while at Michaels. Highend glass, 3 mats or 2 mats/fillet, 4 inch top matting, high-mid priced frame and whatever mounting is correct on the piece. One thing I do not back down from is the mounting.

    Do you know how many people have come up to me.. and state.. "I want to do this as cheaply as possible" ok... no problem.. I still show them the highend EVERYTHING and then go from there. A lot of the times, they love what I designed first. Sometimes glass is an issue when it comes to pricing. So, without changing the design, I change the glass to Cons Clear rather than Museum. I never sell Con non glare.. to me.. it looks really, really bad, but I will show the guest what it looks like and have them choose.

    My average ticket is easily in the $185 range.. average ticket is something like $120.. AND... AND I live in Michigan.... which has one of the worst economy right now.

    Those of us that work(ed) for a BB are not all morons with no education or no style and no selling ability. Next time you secret shop these stores... ask to work with the specialist or the lead framer in the shop.

    Edit -- went "off" a little bit.. but it's just really fustrating.. and I understand it's fustrating for you indie guys too. Not all of us are the bad guys. And I know when our shop isn't capable to do a certain job, I'll recommand an indie. There are certain limits we have at corporate places.
  45. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    With me, Con Clear is the default.

    I don't think MG as default will work. It depends on what is being framed and customer.

    If somebody is framing her kid's "art", what are the chances she will go for Museum Glass? Chances are she'll go elsewhere when the price goes up by $100 from Con Clear to MG.

    On the other hand, if somebody has something valuable or of sentimental value to frame, the sky is the limit.

    Unless of course MG at those advocating it as default costs just a fraction more than Con Clear.
  46. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah, no way could I default to Museum glass either. I'd scare all but a handful off. The BB's get this glass probably for the same price we pay for CC. Just like when their default glass was CC they were paying for that what we pay for regular. I've bought Museum glass from Joann's on occasion to sell to one of my clients just to avoid having to buy a whole box. Still made a profit on it and I'm sure they did too plus, I did not have to have a box of it hanging around to get damaged.
  47. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    That’s precious. If both dimensions are over 20” my average COST would be over $120.

    Could the fact that we are operating on such a contrasting buying environment, void the relevance of your experience? If I ignored all budget requests, I suspect my average would be upwards of $600. I wonder if I would see the same positive results.

    I remember Bob C. referred those that buy MG “refined air”. Now I learn that JA and Michaels is just quoting it by default. There is just more to this story that what I’ve been told. I’m getting a migraine.
  48. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    I certainly haven't sold that much MG, and I suspect because I don't offer it as readily as I should like so many others here. I keep hearing here that if I did I would be way to expensive. If we want to price it the old way we probably are. I know I will revisit my pricing structure this week. I think we have too with Michaels now offering masterpiece glass.

    We should take note of this earlier post, by Cliff, explaining Jim Millers / Bob Carters take on pricing MG. If this was not explained correctly please speak up Jim or Bob.

    "Guys, Jim told you in the title to his reply!

    He "adds" a gross margin of 3 times whatever the gross margin is for CC on the same size lite.

    So, if you buy a 16 x 20 CC lite for $3 and charge $15 (5 times) ...
    then you buy a 16 x 20 Museum Lite for $20, you take the $12 gross margin on the lite of 16 x 20 and multiply it by 3 and add that to the Museum cost, you get a $56 retail price for the Museum.

    If you were to use the same 5 times (fictional remember) you would charge $100. So, you charge half as much, but you still make three times the profit you would on the same size CC glass.

    REMEMBER FICTIONAL PRICES to illustrate only!

    It's just another way to justify marking more expensive stuff up less. Which isn't to say it's a bad idea!"

    Cliff Wilson, CPF

    If we adopt this pricing strategy maybe we will be more competitive and sell more MG and see our profits go up!
  49. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    So true Jay, if I defaulted to MG on every order in most cases the glass alone would be $120. It is a much easier sell at the BB's because they pay less for it than we do. But, that is an issue we should have with TV not the BB's. I think TV is trying to disguise it as some sort of defective glass to us because they want us to believe it. It is a small world, we are all talking to each other about this stuff and it is harder to hide. I have no problem with our suppliers selling to the BB's but it does seem a bit snakey to disguise it as something else so they can sell it to the BB's at a reduced price just to saturate the market with it.
  50. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Nice slip-of-the pen Kathy.....:p

    OK, now this is a public forum. There are lots of people here with connections to TV and would have mentioned this discussion to TV.

    And certainly somebody at TV would be reading about this by now (if not, that's not a good sign either).

    Which begs the question: How come now, over 2 weeks since this thread has been started, nobody at TV has stepped up and clarified this issue??

    The silence is deafening.
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