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CMC Flaw Board

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Kirstie, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    What is everyone paying and where are you getting it? We go through a lot of this stuff and are currently using Berkshire, but the price has doubled over time.
     
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  2. JWB9999999

    JWB9999999 SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I've never paid more than $1/sheet, though I've not needed to buy any this year to be able to give you a recent price. I get it from local distributors.
     
  3. GUMBY GCF

    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    thought it was a policy not to discus pricing
     
  4. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God


    I don't think that rule applies to the board we use underneath the mats we are cutting. It not something we sell to our customers.
     
  5. David Hewitt

    David Hewitt CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Larson Juhl, 40x60, $4.00.
     
  6. EllenAtHowards

    EllenAtHowards PFG, Picture Framing God

    We have had a CMC for 12 or 14 years. And we STILL haven't worked our way through all the papermat that we got when we bought the store! (Probably down to our last 50 sheets, though....)
     
  7. Larry Peterson

    Larry Peterson PFG, Picture Framing God

    How do you order this? I don't see it in the catalog. Can you order via their online ordering or do you have to talk to a rep?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2012
  8. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    Generally I find I have to squeeze my rep and then they finally find me some. 3240 round 1.5
     
  9. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Call a CSR and ask? :p
     
  10. Larry Peterson

    Larry Peterson PFG, Picture Framing God

    Being very hard of hearing, I avoid the phone at all costs. I do all my LJ ordering online. I also ask them to verify via email rather than phone
     
  11. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    When I need flaw board, I e-mail my LJ rep and she sends a 25 or 50 sheet pack. Years ago, she sent random damaged sheets. We would sort out each package and find all sort of good useable alphacellulose board in there, including fabrics. Most had a corner ding or a small scratch. I guess they found a better use for that stuff, because it suddenly changed and we had to buy Berkshire cream paper mat. We usually use 222. I miss the old price though.

    Larry--I use e-mail for any orders that require special ordering for price from my rep. She confirms and we are all set. No need to chat on the phone. I ordred a box of OEM metal this morning. I like this because I can order any time. We haven't tried the main online ordering system yet, but it sounds like a good idea.
     
  12. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God




    ...or if it gets reported to a mod.
     
  13. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Kirstie, I usually buy flaw boards from suppliers like United Mfrs. or Decor moulding.

    They usually have piles and sell them for the prices already quoted. They don't allow people to cherry pick the pile, just to purchase in quantity. I know some framers have bought entire stacks of 500 sheets and found suedes and all sorts of acid free boards. Some of the boards were too good to use as slip sheets.
     
  14. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Regarding price discussions, I consider flaw boards supplies, not items that are usually associated with sale to the public, so I am not concerned about a price discussion here. We don't have free delivery from United or Decor, but we do from Omega, so I will check with their rep for price. Otherwise, the best I can get is Berkshire.
     
  15. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    When I order "flaw board" from my local supplier I get a smooth white board that appears to be the core of whitecore matboard. It's $2 and something a sheet, but it lasts a pretty long time, what with rotating and using both sides. Since the vast majority of the mats I cut are not oversize, I just keep 32x40 slip sheets on the machine. When I need to cut oversize mats I append a two-layer auxiliary board which I have ready. I just tape it to the 32x40 boards and remove it after the oversize work is finished.
    :cool: Rick
     
  16. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That may just be Crescent's X mounting board like the 3X that used to be popular for mounting.
     
  17. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I might be in the minority here, but I do sell framing supplies to artists and the like. Jeff, I thought you did as well. As it is, I have a few that have computerized mat cutters (being that they are easier/cheaper today after shops have closed). So yes, some of us do sell supplies and this type of items to the public.
     
  18. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes I sell mat board, foam core, glass, hardware and length moulding nearly every day.
     
  19. Terry Hart cpf

    Terry Hart cpf SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    LJ. Last batch I bought was $2.00 a sheet for 32x40. Now I don't know why I didn't ask about 40x60 other than I guess it would be a pain for me to store. I'm sure that if you emailed them you could get some added to your order. When we first got our CMC we ordered direct from Crescent @ $1.00 a sheet but we had to order 500 which lasted us years.
     
  20. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It is ridiculous to suggest that there is harm in discussing price, along with sources, of "flaw" board. Aren't we here to help fellow Grumblers? :p
     
  21. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Apparently some are sticklers for rules...
     
  22. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Yep. I'm a stickler for rules, especially when they protect a revenue stream for myself (and likely others). I'll point out this type of issue all day long rather than put myself in a situation where I'm having to negotiate all over with customers that buy on a semi wholesale level. Sorry, but I didn't make the rules of the forum. My understanding is that we don't talk wholesale prices. People can exchange PM's all day long talking pricing if they want to but I believe that there isn't supposed to be wholesale pricing in the forums. Is that right Mike Labbe?

    Besides, there are too many possibilities where customers can see some low priced items on a forum (with just a little searching) and start to make some assumptions about other costs as well.
     
  23. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Pat, I think the problem is there are some framers that aren't as adept at purchasing. Their retail price could very well be our cost. When we talk any prices, including the cost of flaw board, it can hurt their revenue stream.

    I'm surprised when I hear the high prices some are paying for supplies and materials. There's as much an art in buying as there is in selling.
     
  24. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Huh? If that's the case and they have a handle on their pricing then they are definitely buying right.

    It's more along the lines of some of us even sell supplies and make money on it. So by revealing the cost on an item that they generate revenue from could do some harm.
     
  25. Terry Hart cpf

    Terry Hart cpf SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Resell flawboard? (scratches head) You're right, maybe we shouldn't talk about this. The suppliers may get wind & raise the price. Paper board with a surface damaged beyond use.








    So....what do y'all pay for a box of screw eyes? ;-P
     
  26. GUMBY GCF

    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    There are probably things in your shop you sell that I do not.
    But a lot of grumblers do sell to photographers, artists, hobbyist.
     
  27. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    Moderator Alerts

    This (old) thread has received two moderator alerts, because the prices of supplies/materials were mentioned by 5 people (and the initial post was asking for prices).

    The forum has a policy of asking nicely that folks don't post retail markup formulas or the costs for materials/supplies. While I think scrap/flaw board is borderline a non-issue, at least two members strongly disagree. In the interest of coming to a resolution, and reducing the time/workload spent handling moderator alerts for this particular issue..... I give the original posters the volunteer option of having their posts edited, to remove the prices and replace them with asterisks. Since so much time has passed, I think this would be the best way to handle it.

    If the following members would like their posts edited, please PM me briefly and I'll take care of it immediately.

    The users who posted flaw board costs, and can PM to have them removed:
    Larry Peterson
    David Hewitt
    JWB99999999
    Rick Granick
    jpaul
    Terry Hart, CPF


    Thanks
    Mike, Mod team
     
  28. snafu

    snafu MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Southern had it for $1 until last Friday when I ordered some and I was told it had been discontinued.




    [​IMG]
     
  29. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    .... and

    -snafu
     
  30. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Guess they read the G and determined they weren't charging enough. :bdh:
     
  31. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Mike, feel free to remove whatever you want from my initial post. I thought flawboard was a non issue and was trying to find a better deal on it. I apologize if I was wrong. Carry on--glad I don't have your job --Kirstie
     
  32. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Ummm, you can discuss any pricing you want in the member's section of The Framers' Corner.
     
  33. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    While I didn't ask to have prices removed I think it is a good idea to take them down. Over the weekend I looked up pricing on some moulding that a large number of framers have corner samples hanging on their wall. This moulding is 4" wide so most framers would buy it as a chop and therefore they are paying $21 per foot MORE than I pay for the same item number. Think about how angry your customers would be if I posted the item numbers and they read it here in the public section of the Business Issues. Based on traditional mark ups there would be a massive difference in the retail price of the item numbers on say a 30x40 frame. I have a very large number of customers that found me after internet searches and reading the Grumble.
     
  34. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Thank you Jeff. I totally agree with the bolded section. This just seems logical to me but Mike was kind enough to inform me that the pricing thing isn't really a rule, rather a suggestion and it doesn't cover "flawed/scrap boards and closeout products as they don't have a set price". So I guess in theory you would be well within the wheelhouse to print the prices of any moulding or mats you get at a closeout price if you wanted to. I hope you don't since you buy many mouldings for pennies on the dollar compared to many of us.

    The thought that we can discuss some pricing but not others seems to me would create more moderation issues rather than less but these things are larger than perhaps my little mind can grasp.
     
  35. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The item numbers are not closeouts but are just my price. It would also make a lot of vendors/distributors very angry if retail framers knew these prices.
     
  36. stcstc

    stcstc SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    i thought that moulding didnt have massive markouts from the suppliers, thought generally less than 50% is that not correct?
     
  37. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Prices are at the factory, landed cost at the importer/manufacturer, price to the vendor, box/length/chop from the vendor and retail to the customer. The most expensive items have large mark ups at each level.
     
  38. Terry Hart cpf

    Terry Hart cpf SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Flaw board is a disposable supply. It's like asking what you pay for paper towels. Used paper towels at that. I don't discuss pricing specifics, wholesale or retail on the open forums but this is not the same thing. Give the moderators a break.
     
  39. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    :thumbsup:
     
  40. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    If it is disposable supply, why do some people on this forum and thread sell it? Oh, so others can dispose of it after paying a healthy markup. What is disposable for one may be revenue for another. Mike explained the forums position. He also explained that it barely fell outside of him going back to edit it. So I think that it's not that far outside of the wheelhouse but thanks for chiming in. It's good to know where you stand on the matter but there are two sides of this argument and not understanding how others could possibly be impacted by it doesn't impact the fact that they might be.
     
  41. GUMBY GCF

    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    We sell it by the sheet just like mat board. We also put it on our ready made precut mats so it is part of what we sell just as if we were putting it in a frame.
     
  42. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Ok I'm confused....... isnt the whole idea of Flaw board....... to use it with our CMC's??
    Why the heck would you sell it??? :nuts:
     
  43. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I work with the teachers in two school districts who use it for school projects and other things (they will cut around bad sections for art projects, etc). I also have two customers who both do framing of memorabilia for wholesale purposes to sell during golf tournaments. One of them frames over 100 pieces a week during the summer. They buy their materials through me for companies that won't deliver to their home (read: LJ). They both have wizards and buy flawboard for that as well as one of them backs cheaper items with it.

    As an example of how we are all different. If a customer walks into one of my competitors and asks if they have picture hooks, that shop charges the customer $1 each. This is if the person hadn't framed with them, but just came in and asked for a hook. I give them away for free. I wouldn't reveal what I pay for them in an open forum since someone out there might be marking them up and selling them. But I guess in theory I could and if one of those customers found out how much it cost for those courtesy hangers they might feel as if they were taken advantage of. I don't want that to happen to anyone.

    Again, it's been explained and it is what it is. But that doesn't mean it changes the fact that costs for materials I sell are now on this forum and could be found by anyone.

    For the record - I also sell artist tape, framers tape, points, metal frame hardware, kraft paper and plastic bags to people. Things that they could get from another supplier but because of our relationship or because they don't order enough of it to be economical, they come to me and I make money on it. I bet none of you would have an issue with the costs of most of these being revealed either but it would impact me (and others).
     
  44. Terry Hart cpf

    Terry Hart cpf SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I've sold all that too (well, never had anyone ask for a plastic bag that I recall)+ screws, wire, atg, whatever they'd like. It's a convienience for the customer. Not worried that they'll discover what I pay for a box of screws. We're an art supply store as well as picture framing (34 yrs) Never recall selling a sheet of flaw board either in the 13 years I've had a cmc. Didn't even know companies sold it till Wizard told me. I think it's a great question. It's one of those new expenses of having a cmc that didn't exist before. We not only use it to line the cutting bed but use far more of it doing test runs of the more complicated mats. Originally we bought direct from Crescent. We'd place board orders a couple of times a year, mat board, Illustration, mounting, poster, etc. Their minimum was fairly hefty for a small store like us & for flaw board I'd have to order at least 200 sheets. Then a few years ago I think they tripled their minimum order & now it's just too much for us.
     
  45. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Terry, what I think that's happening is suppliers are selling damaged matboard as 'flaw' board.

    Flaw board might not have any uses besides a slip sheet on a mat cutter, where as damaged matboards being sold as 'flaw' boards, are perfectly usuable if you can cut around the damage...be it in the center or along an edge.

    Some people might be reselling those boards cheaper then regular price, but at a significant mark up from flaw board prices.

    The intention is that they will be used as slip sheets, but I don't blame peole for buying an entire lot of 'flaw' boards (damaged matboard) and choosing to resell the better stuff.

    Tru View maximized the waste in their Museum glass line by selling the flawed sheets at a reduced price to Michaels. Michaels sells Masterpiece glass as a discounted price from Museum glass.
     
  46. EllenAtHowards

    EllenAtHowards PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well, it USED to be that flaw board had pink (if I remember) stripes on the face of it, and could only be used for slip sheets. I assume it is easier just to take damaged board and put it in a stack to be sold cheaply, because it can't be sold full price, so get rid of it.
     
  47. Terry Hart cpf

    Terry Hart cpf SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Yep, all striped & paper mat. Not much good for anything but slip sheets. Probably why I've never sold one, you think? I mean, we'll sell anything. I do remember one time when Crescent was out of the paper mat flaw & I had to buy rag mat flaw. It was much more expensive but that was offset by the fact that it was at least useable for some backings. I wonder if they even sold it before the advent of cmc's? I'm sure it wasn't in the catalog & we had to ask about it at the suggestion of the folks at Wizard. It's kind of an annoying expense but at least now all my customers snooping this thread can appreciate the expense I go to to cut them good mats. I'm sure they also appreciate that I'm trying to keep the expense low too so if anyone has a line on better prices I'd love to hear, post or pm.
     
  48. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    In the old days flaw board had off white yellowish stripes on it from Crescent. Now it may be that the paper layer is a 1/4" from reaching the edge of the middle board layer. The problem with discussing pricing is that many people have chosen to give prices of first quality items that they use in place of flaw board when they can't get flaw board.

    I understand why Paul is bothered that people think nothing of putting these prices out there since those other framers don't retail items the way he and I do. Would it bother people here if I started quoting my retail price of $4.95 for full sheets of mat board or foam core. Not nearly as much as it would if I started posting what I charge retail for length moulding which is below most framers actual wholesale cost.
     
  49. GUMBY GCF

    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    For most of you you did not become aware of flaw board until you started to use it as slip sheets.
    Flaw board has been sold for decades mainly as backing for matted pictures. That is before foamcore was introduced and became the accepted norm for backing and the prices fell.
    By the way we sell foam board retail at less than what even the chain stores do.
     
  50. Grey Owl

    Grey Owl SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I also use flaw board to make boxes for some framed products when they are going to be used as gifts, or I'm delivering them.

    It only takes a couple of minutes to cut them, and tape the corners to make the boxes. Much better presentation than wrapped in paper. And my prices include the costs associated with the box. And scratches on the board are not a problem.

    Unfortunately, my current supply of flaw boards are pink and green.
     
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