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Desperate for help - Fletcher Cornerpro 5700

Discussion in 'Software, Computers, CMC's Techie Stuff' started by SportsDisplays, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    I'm as a desperation point and I'm hoping I found the right place! We bought a business last year and inherited the Cornerpro 5700 underpinner. We continue to have a lot of issues with our CornerPro 5700 firing the nails. I have called Fletcher many times and talked to the same gentleman. First he told me it was likely that we needed oil, so I went and bought oil and continue to oil it like crazy. That didn't solve it. Then he said the hammer needed to be replaced so I bought one and replaced it, that didn't solve it. I brought in a handyman and we inserted washers where the Hammer Block attaches to give room for the nails. That worked for awhile, but now the issue is the unit doesn't seem to have the power to get the nails in. It will fire one that will barely get in the wood, but the second doesn't make it. I'm maxing out the air compressor to see if that would help, but it doesn't impact it at all.

    I've wasted so many v-nails and wood trying to get this machine working and my frustration level is maxed out. Plus now I can't build frames! I've asked Fletcher if they have anyone that can come to our location and fix this issue and I've been told no. How can I be the only one experiencing this!?!?

    Any tips or experiences others can share? Thanks in advance!
     
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  2. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Are you using the two stage clamp, then fire design. Sounds like you are pushing the trigger all at once rather than engaging the clamp then putting additional pressure on the button to insert the nail.
     
  3. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    Thank you for responding. Actually I am engaging the clamp first, then I pull the handle back and fire one nail, then the other. Then I slide the handle forward, fire one nail then the second. Then I slide it forward for the last spot, fire one nail then the other. The second nail into each location is not going, it stays back in the tray.
     
  4. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    When you refer to the clamp are you talking about the horizontal clamp or the hold down clamp. The horizontal clamp is engaged to grab the frame into the corner fence, then light pressure on the trigger lowers the hold down clamp and finally a little more pressure on the trigger pushes the nail up. If you are stacking v-nails the hold down clamp must remain down on the moulding in between the two firings.

    As I recall the 5700 has a foot pedal which engages the horizontal clamp. That clamp is positioned as close to the moulding corner before beginning the process. Then the pedal will engage that clamp which is now holding the moulding into the fence. Next I believe you have a joystick with a button on it. Light pressure downward will drop the hold down clamp but not fire a v-nail. Now that the horizontal clamp is holding the frame against the fence and the hold down clamp is holding the frame down on the table a little more pressure on the button fires the v-nail. If you are stacking a nail you slightly release the button so the hold down clamp remains on top of the moulding but you will hear a cycle which is dropping the driver and loading another v-nail into position. Once you hear this cycle another downward press of the button fires a second v-nail and pushes the first farther up into the frame.

    If you allow the hold down clamp to raise between the time the first and second v-nails are inserted the process has failed. So confirm you are 1) clamping the horizontal clamp 2) engaging the hold down clamp without firing a nail 3) finishing the button push which is firing the nail and then if stacking 4) slightly easing pressure on the trigger so the clamp remains down on the top of the moulding but you hear the cycle 5) depressing the trigger a second time for the second v-nail to push in and push the first higher into the moulding.

    Now as I recall on the 5700 the horizontal clamp remains engaged with the foot pedal while you move the head/hold down to the next position and repeat as needed. I looked at some photos online and can not tell from those but if you post a photo of yours I can tell you for sure the sequence.

    If the clamping and firing both occur with the foot pedal it is a 2 stage pedal that allows for a cycle without the hold down clamp from raising between firings. Your hold down clamp needs to be in a positive hold position so the moulding can not move. You also need the hold down clamp to be lowered enough that you can pass your finger under it before you begin to engage the clamping. The closer the hold down is to the top of the moulding prior to engaging the more positive the hold will be when nailing.

    If these things don't answer your questions please post a photo of you v-nailer and the moulding you are joining so I can diagnose the problem.
     
  5. Mike Drury

    Mike Drury True Grumbler

    Some of the information above is not correct. We actually have two of these machines. The only thing the trigger on the joy stick does is fire a nail. The joy stick moves the driver to different positions. When the foot pedal is pressed and held down the frontal clamp engages and applies pressure on the miter towards the fence and almost simultaneously the hold down clamp engages to apply downward pressure on the miter. Keep the foot pedal down and fire nails. You need to know there are nails for both hardwood and softwood. There are also two hold down clamps, if only using one make sure the valve is closed to the second. Air pressure is another consideration as is the location of the hold down clamp to where the nail is being driven. This is pretty basic, but make sure the correct lifter plate is being used under the v-nails. There are so many variables to the consider and you might have to bite the bullet and send the unit to FT for a makeover.
     
  6. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    Thank you guys! Unfortunately I'm boarding a flight and will be gone for the week. As soon as I get back I will try what you suggested. Mike, you are correct about this unit with regards to the foot pedal and the trigger. Do your units have a loud hiss of air from the staples pusher? It's only that loud noise when the tray is closed and I wasn't sure if that is normal..

    As I mentioned, this unit has been used to build frames for 8 years and this just recently started happening. We're also using the same vnails we've always used. I sure wish Fletcher had some field support.
     
  7. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    When you say v-nails that you have always used I have to ask if you have always used them in the 5700 or a different v-nailer. Using the wrong v-nails is a huge problem. If you have a hissing sound you have a seal kit that needs to be replaced. The kits are inexpensive and easy to replace. The oil you have used has been going into the air line hasn't it. The oiling of a v-nailer happens from the inside and not outside of the machine.
     
  8. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    I've always used v-nails with the 5700. The idea behind the oil was it lubricates the entire machine and ultimately makes it easier for the hammer to push the nail up. The oil is put in where the air compressor line attaches and then works its way through the unit.
     
  9. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    No, loud hissing is not normal and it usually indicates one or more leaking air cylinders. That would also explain the weakness of your machine in driving the fasteners.

    Your machine probably has been getting progressively worse, which would be further indication of leaking air cylinders due to increasing wear of their seals. You may need to replace or at least recondition some or all of the air cylinders in your underpinner. So, unless you can locate help from a dealer of Pilm framing equipment, I suggest you contact an industrial maintenance company with a specialist in pneumatic machines. I believe all of those pneumatic parts are available on the open market.

    The air supply needs to be clean, dry, and lubricated. Otherwise, cylinders' seals will deteriorate and eventually leak. The more they leak, the louder they hiss. Such unnecessary wear can be prevented by installing a pneumatic air filter/lubricator on the air input of the machine. The F5700 I bought about a decade ago is used daily and runs at full strength, showing no signs of wear, because the optional air filter/lubricator was installed on the machine when it was new.

    Fetcher-Terry stopped representing Pilm, the maker of the F5500, F5600, and F5700 underpinners, several years ago. Fletcher-Terry was the USA agent and never owned Pilm, but now owns AMP/Alfamacchine, another Italian manufacturer and Pilm's primary competitor. If you decide to replace your F5700, you may want to consider a new machine from AMP, as that brand dominates the American framing market and AMP makes excellent machines.

    A contaminated air supply would affect any pneumatic machine, and it has nothing to do with the brand, but your frustration with the lack of service and parts available for your machine is understandable. A current Pilm dealer is Framing Supplies.com, but I believe Fletcher-Terry still has some parts available, and you may also get more information or help from Pilm directly.
     
  10. Justan2

    Justan2 Guest

    I recently bought a used underpinner and went through a few stages of finding and removing air leaks which ultimately made the underpinner work nearly like new.

    Stage 1 was to use some water with a lot of dishwasher soap in it and put the mixture in a small spray bottle. I sprayed each air hose to clamp interface fitting. Where there was an air leak the lose fitting caused bubbles to form.

    Note that some air lines are only pressurized when the v-nails are fired and/or when the clamps are engaged, so you will need to check for overall leaks, plus check for leaks related to the other 2 conditions noted above. This test takes about 20 minutes to complete.

    Where I found a leak, I used a felt pen to mark the location and continued with the test. Once the test completed, I replaced all hose segments where there was a leak. Sometimes the hose fitting was damaged and in that case I replaced the fitting. You can also use glue to plug a leak but due to the pressures involved, glue will probably not provide a long term solution.

    Stage 2: After the replacements were done i re-tested and found a couple fittings that needed further attention. I fixed those and then re-re-tested.

    Stage 3: Once I got rid of all of the interface related leaks I checked for internal leaks. The easiest way to do this is to talk with with a technician who can walk you through it. I ended up ordering a rebuild kit for the clamping cylinders. The rebuild took about 30 minutes to complete.

    If you don’t have the time or desire to do this probably any nearby machine shop, hydraulic shop or even a pneumatic repair shop can do it for you.

    Also when using an underpinner it is a good idea to have a large air supply tank.
     
  11. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    This is the spot where the loud air leak is coming from (see picture). It's right on the other side of the Staples Pusher and when closed there's a very loud hiss of air from the open hole my screwdriver is pointing to. Is that hole supposed to be open?
     

    Attached Files:

  12. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    Crazy story about how we got it to work after Fletcher sent us 5 different replacement parts, including a new Staples Pusher: A few months ago we noticed when the hammer pushes up the nail it was just barely catching on the block, which would cause the nail to not go into the wood or get damaged on the way. We added a thin metal spacer and that worked until recently. After replacing all these parts, there is still a loud hiss of air, but we went back and added a double sided piece of paper as a spacer (since the metal spacer was now too thick, shooting up 2 staples at a time).

    I'm still very concerned that the air is leaking, but it's working so I don't want to mess with anything else.
     
  13. Rick Bergeron - CPF

    Rick Bergeron - CPF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    That is the exhaust port. Leak there indicates a worn/aged O-ring. Valve rebuild with replacing all O-rings with proper O-rings should fix the problem (and be a relatively inexpensive rebuild)
     
  14. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    That's interesting Rick and one thought we also had. What O-rings do you think need to be replaced? When I talked to Fletcher they said they don't sell any O-rings by themselves. There was one I asked about around the cylinder gasket kit and I'd have to replace the whole part for $71.32. Do you know somewhere to buy just the right O-rings.
     
  15. Rick Bergeron - CPF

    Rick Bergeron - CPF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    For $70, I'd be inclined to replace instead of repair. The versa branded valves used by other underpinners are $300+ and rebuild is $30-$50.

    Many times, a universal O-ring kit will have an acceptable size. Those kits can be found for $20 or less at HarborFreight etal. The only issue with them is that those O-rings are usually 'static' O-rings which are softer than dynamic O-rings which move or have things moving through them. Using a static in place of a dynamic works fine, just requires more frequent replacement.

    If you are relatively mechanically inclined, those valves are usually symmetrical. You could try disassembling and swapping the orings from one end to the other and lubricate them in the process. Vaseline usually works OK.
     
  16. Rick Bergeron - CPF

    Rick Bergeron - CPF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'm guessing there are between 5 and 9 O-rings, or some other sealing components, of at least 2 different sizes internally.
     
  17. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    @Rick Bergeron - CPF
    Rick, I tried to PM you since you were such a great help about this a couple years ago, but I'll put the message here too:

    A couple years ago you were nice enough to comment on a thread regarding an issue I was having with a loud hiss/leak on our Fletcher Cornerpro 5700. I got the machine working and have just worked with the hiss the last couple years since the machine was working. However I really want to get it working!

    When we originally talked you said the leak was coming from
    "the exhaust port. Leak there indicates a worn/aged O-ring. Valve rebuild with replacing all O-rings with proper O-rings should fix the problem (and be a relatively inexpensive rebuild)"

    Based on your advice I contacted them about the O-ring and was told: "Only O rings in the machine are the ones in the cylinder that has the pusher for the nails"

    We replaced that O-ring, but still the leak remains and it's draining our air compressor. I'm at a loss for other ideas! I can send you more pictures or video if needed, but would love additional feedback.

    Anyone else with feedback on this would be most appreciated!!
     
  18. Rick Bergeron - CPF

    Rick Bergeron - CPF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    PM reply sent.

    In the picture you posted back in 2015, what is on the end that can't be seen? a hose fitting, and electrical part, etc
     
  19. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    The other end is the switch to open/close the staples. In that picture, my screwdriver is pointing to an open circle/hole where there's nothing attached. That is the source of the air leak. When I put my finger on it to cover the leak, the Staples Pusher opens (will not stay closed). That makes me think there's some balance needed with the air pressure, but no way should there be this loud leak.

    As I said the machine is working, but I want to solve this hissing/leak once and for all.
     
  20. Rick Bergeron - CPF

    Rick Bergeron - CPF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Proceed at your own risk.... Does what appears to be an "end plug" unscrew? Be careful, it could be spring loaded and parts go flying and lost.

    If I see things correctly, in the resting position, the yellow line should provide air to the blue line while exhausting air from the white/clear line to the hole you are pointing. When the valve is triggered, the yellow line should provide air to the white/clear line and probably exhaust air from the blue line via a similar exhaust hole on the other end.
    Air leaking while in the untriggered position indicates a bad seal on the piston between the yellow and white/clear port.
     
  21. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    Yes, I have unscrewed that end plug and it's spring loaded!

    The air is not leaking in the "untriggered" position, only when the stapler is triggered. It's a loud hissing/leak that doesn't seem normal. Do you still think it could be a seal? How much air should be "exhausting" while working the machine.
     
  22. Rick Bergeron - CPF

    Rick Bergeron - CPF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Just a quick pffft while in the triggered position would be my guess. Do you have a pneumatic plumbing/wiring schematic? For a valve that small, it could be the seals are molded to the piston but you won't know until you pull the piston out. Doing that might cause more irreparable damage to the other seals.
     
  23. Greg Apprentice

    Greg Apprentice Grumbler in Training

    SportsDisplays,

    Are you still having this problem? I just bought a used VN144 and the part losing air looks the exact same as yours. I'm going to find a solution this week...hopefully.
     
  24. SportsDisplays

    SportsDisplays Grumbler

    Yes still the same issue but it's working so I haven't stopped down to change it.
     
  25. Greg Apprentice

    Greg Apprentice Grumbler in Training

    SportsDisplays,

    I fixed the leak. Replace the aluminum manifold block. My used VN144 came with a replacement.

    https://imgur.com/GoSuh7n

    One of the connectors is difficult to remove. Use pliers and try not to damage the o-ring:
    https://imgur.com/lwebzTh

    Mine is made by Pneumax in Italy. Looks like replacements can be bought here: Aluminum Manifold.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
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