Do you offer Polystyrene Mouldings in your shop? March 2007 Survey

[RoboFramer]

Without trees we don't have much of a planet!

It takes trees, or something natural that one time used to be trees and/or things that depended on them and/or other natural 'stuff' to even produce the heat to make plastic mouldings which all have one thing in common - once they were just liquid - thanks to - TREES!!!

Trees go - plastic mouldings go - matboard goes - glass goes - WE go!!!

By using wooden mouldings - maybe - we are eliminating one more heat producing process which is designed to imitate something that can be made from the fuel made to make it.

 

[Whynot]

Jim,

I wanted to say that, in my opinion, mid (?) to low end wood molding may conceivably be replaced with poly, which in return is sure to change that class framers' overall profile and attributes. In time those plastic frames can't get but better looking and less expensive without ever replacing real superior frames.
If today's mid of the road framer may still expect and hope for one of those clients who's got serious art and needs really good frames (for which reason that framer things useful to learn about conservation-preservation techniques and carries a bunch of good corner samples, just in case), with the advent of poly frames and computer generated/processed image services (natural association) we enter a different age, a territory addressing different needs of a clientele interested in good looking, yet inexpensive and less savant ways of framing. That type of market will shape a different creature than the one we know as being the traditional framer.
I don't say this road is wrong or that it must/can be opposed. There is money to be done in that field too. I say that this is the point where a new species of framer (?) takes off, one that will do, know and believe in different values than yours.

 

[Reynard the fox]

I wouldn`t have any of that cheap rubbish anywhere near my sample board.

That is all.

 

[j Paul]

I have tried polys in the past but really don't carry any mainly because I am 99% LJ. I did just pick up a nice profile from TCMoulding Open House this past weekend that was on closeout. It is a nice basic 1 1/2 faux oak that would sell similar price in wood at about $11.50'. My clearance price was .12'cents, so I'll give it a try with a sale price of about $5 - 5.75. What do I got to loose

 

[Whynot]

What do I got to loose

Do you ask us or LJ? I guess LJ may possibly be flattered to lern of their association with one such outstanding clearance plastic molding which may pass for natural oak by LJ.

 

[j Paul]

Do you ask us or LJ? I guess LJ may possibly be flattered to lern of their association with one such outstanding clearance plastic molding which may pass for natural oak by LJ.

Guess that was really a rhetorical question.

I know things get lost in translation, so I won't take offense, even though you seem to insinuate that I would try to pass it off as LJ. I have a number of similar priced clearance moulding that I have, and as discussed on other threads, customers alway know why they are thus priced.

 

[Jim Miller]

...I have a number of similar priced clearance moulding that I have, and as discussed on other threads, customers alway know why they are thus priced.

jPaul, I hope they are "thus priced" very profitably, as are mine.

 

[j Paul]

jPaul, I hope they are "thus priced" very profitably, as are mine.

I think so Jim, let's see.......12cents ft. cost and I put it in my POS at retail of $5.40 ft , that should give me a 450% MU. I think that is OK! Only bought 95' of this but even with a waste factor 10% I should see a tidy profit on my $11.40 investment. Sell one frame and I will have paid for all of it.

Oh, and by the way folks, it cuts just fine on the chopper and underpins just fine and with the right glue.........

 

[Jim Miller]

In pricing my polys, I check the profit dollars I would earn from framing with a similar looking wood, and price the poly to exceed that amount of gross profit.

Usually, that puts the poly within 25% of the wood's retail price. The customer saves, but I earn more profit dollars and my COGS numbers are almost stunning.

 

[Whynot]

you seem to insinuate that I would try to pass it off as LJ. I have a number of similar priced clearance moulding that I have, and as discussed on other threads, customers alway know why they are thus priced.

It was pure statistical reasoning. When 99% of your wall samples are LJ’s, it’s quite easy to miss that one which is of a different yet noble origin.
Next one is a rhetorical question though: why bother selling LJ when plastic closeout moldings are that many times more profitable?

Speaking of profitability, if that's all that matters, I suspect that a new product like say Colombian made plastic over cocaine moldings would be even more profitable than the Chinese plain plastic ones. Hope you don't misread my message again. That would be sort of high end stuff, I'm guessing ;( Nowhere to be found in the range of .12 dollars/ft.

 

[Jim Miller]

...why bother selling LJ when plastic closeout moldings are that many times more profitable?...

Closeout or not, poly moulding profit percentages are impressive, but compared with similar-looking wood mouldings, the dollars are lower at every step of the transaction. So, greater profit percentages are required to produce equal or better profit dollars. Fortunately, the equation works and the results are all good.

For my business poly mouldings represent not only greater profit, but also variety, which earns more sales. Instead of losing orders by 25% to the neighboring craft stores, I satisfy those customers by selling poly mouldings, with designs and prices attractive to them.

We are here to serve our customers. When they want $50/foot ornate gilded moulding, we have it for them. When they want $5/foot poly instead, we would be wise to have that, as well. Either way, our sales must produce sufficient profit to justify being in business.

...Speaking of profitability, if that's all that matters...

Profit is not all that matters. But if profit is absent, then nothing else matters in business. For the increasing number of small independent framers wondering how to pay next month's rent, that fact is painfully clear.

Framers who enjoy the luxury of selling only expensive mouldings may be enviable, but that is no longer my situation. Seven years ago there were five small-shop framers within three miles of my store, and now there is one. Consumers in my market are responding favorably to poly mouldings, so I am providing them enthusiastically and profitably.

 

[Melinda Tennis]

polystyrene

I have repaired many plastic frames whose hangers pulled out of the back and they fell off the wall. My customers who have bought these frames elsewhere had been fooled by the salesman who mumbled plastic when asked what they were made of and my customers thought he said plaster. The detail is great and they are very light but they're PLASTIC!! I don't have the exhaust equipment I would need to use the glue, either.

 

[Jim Miller]

I have repaired many plastic frames whose hangers pulled out of the back and they fell off the wall....

I've repaired a few like that, but certainly not "many". All of the several poly frames I've repaired/replaced have come from overseas, where production methods are poor. Nailed or stapled sawtooth hangers are not adequate hardware for most wood frames, let alone a 16x20 or larger poly frame. The imported, poorly built wood frames fall apart, too.

More often than failed hardware, corner damage happens in handling/transit, or when a consumer's nail (not a proper wall hook) pulled out of the wall. Some of the imported frames don't even come with hardware, inviting uninformed consumers to improvise. That's not the fault of poly moulding. That's the fault of poor production and uninformed consumers.

...My customers who have bought these frames elsewhere had been fooled by the salesman who mumbled plastic when asked what they were made of and my customers thought he said plaster...

Do you have a custom framer in your area who is so unscrupulous, or are you referring to a salesman in a retail department store? If it is a framer, shame on him. Fortunately, most picture framers are more forthright than that. If it is a store clerk, he probably also sells melamine tableware as fine china. Buyer beware.

...I don't have the exhaust equipment I would need to use the glue, either.

Are you allergic? On frames, the cyanoacrylate (SuperGlue) is typically used in such small amounts that ventilation is not an issue. At worst, the toxicity of joining a frame with cyanoacrylate might be something like using Goof Off or UnDo to remove a small pricetag.

If ventilation were important, there would probably be restrictions on its sale to consumers, or at least some emphatic warnings on the labels. Cyanoacrylate liquid or gel has nothing like the toxicity of a solvent spray; no large area of exposure, no overspray or drifting particulate, as with a spray adhesive. Also, the glued miter joint is immediately closed, so air exposure of that tiny dab is only a few seconds.

If you know of someone harmed by normal use of SuperGlue, or if you know of an authoritative or official caution about using that sort of adhesive, please let us know the details.

 

[Bob Carter]

Jim-I am really amazed that this thing is still going

And, that you are still attempting to overcome the myths so prevalently presented by a few

I think the Bottom Line needs to be "Use them, Don't use them. It makes no difference"

To those that used them effectively, it has made a big difference

I must say that I haven't seen hardly any plastics where the hangers have pulled out except where as you noted the attachment was suspect to begin with

I can say that we have seen a fair share of wooden (and metal) frames where hangers (especially screw eyes) have flat splintered te wood or pulled out (resulting in glass replacement at minimum)

Not sure we ought to condemn wooden frames, though

 

[Jim Miller]

Jim-I am really amazed that this thing is still going. And, that you are still attempting to overcome the myths so prevalently presented by a few...

You're right, Bob. I must be nuts.

Resistance to change is a powerful, emotional influence.

That's what keeps framers buying the same old wood moulding profiles, even though they are now made of mushwood instead of Ramin. And that's what keeps framers from embracing new things, even when the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

 

[Mike Labbe]

While the survey has ended, the discussion can continue.

Here are my interpretations for the results of last month's grumble poll:

POLY MOULDING SURVEY MARCH 2007 - 119 participants

Of those surveyed, 77% DO NOT currently offer Poly Mouldings.

Their reasons:
49% Quality concerns
22% Framer/Employee resistance
16% Availability/no established source
13% Do not know how to cut/join it
12% OTHER (see forum for explanation and discussion)
11% Customer resistance
05% Do not know how to sell it
03% Variety of profiles & finishes
02% Do not know how to earm more profit with it

Of those surveyed, 21% DO offer Poly Mouldings.

How long have you offered poly mouldings?
20% Less than 1 year
04% 1-2 years
28% 2-5 years
48% 5+ years

How do you display your poly samples?
61% We display them mixed with wood samples
30% We display them in a special section
09% We keep them out of customer view until needed

Who do you sell poly mouldings to?
48% We offer them to Retail Sales
29% We offer them to Commercial and Resale clients
23% Only when price is an issue, as a sale saver

How do you price/mark up poly mouldings?
62% Higher markup than that of wood offerings?
38% Similar markup to that of wood offerings
00% Lower markup than that of wood offerings?

 

[Jim Miller]

Thank you, Mike, for putting up this poll. Indeed, thanks for putting up all the polls that you do. Your work is very much appreciated.

Aside from the few emotional tirades, there were some very good opinions stated in this thread, supported by sensible reasoning on all sides of the issue.