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Opinions Wanted DOCUMOUNTS.COM PRICES???????

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by JAYENESS/SPOKANE, May 18, 2010.

  1. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    Has anyone checked out documounts new website loaded with cheap metal frames, Artique mats, and 100's of other items ready for purchase with pricing available to ANYONE who accesses their site (no login needed for pricing). Does anyone else see this as a problem? What happens if Larson Juhl decides to start advertising their documounts website?
     
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  2. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Stop selling there stuff, and do the same thing :)

    maybe its time we all start online websites for framing.
     
  3. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    They just said in another thread the majority of their business on Documounts is from cutting mats.
     
  4. cjmst3k

    cjmst3k SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'm surprised they offer frames on there if that's the case, which is probably what is the most concerning element of their customer-direct website.
     
  5. evartpat

    evartpat PFG, Picture Framing God

    Documounts.com...no I am not happy about it.

    Lack of class on Jayness though...stirring the pot once again, and throwing stones at Goliath.

    Shall we open more cans of worms...like the fact Jayness sells to anybody with a business license, not just store fronts?? Not that I care about that, but its a sore point for many.

    Give it a rest...:icon11:
     
  6. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Doesn't this take business away from us... though not the business we all want in total, but might bring people through the door, and they may actually pick a frame.

    I can go on for a long time about why they do it and so on just from a business perspective, but i will hold back for now.
     
  7. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    They are selling below the wholesale prices of my company and at least one other wholesaler that I know of. With shipping at around 10% of your order and as low as $10 if you just want supplies.
     
  8. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    We don't advertise the prices of our products on a website that anyone can access. Like a Nielsen 1521 16x20 chop for $17.59. Any wholesaler that says they don't sell to anyone they can isn't being truthful.
     
  9. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Maybe we should buy directly cut mats from them....

    What you will get:
    - 25 18x24 single mats with a 12.5x18.5 opening for a 13x19 image in Arctic White
    - 25 Standard 1/8" foam board backing
    - 25 Traditional Clear Bags
    Borders on this mat are 2.75" all the way around.

    All that for $156!
     
  10. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Guess this will save people from having to buy a computerized mat cutter. LOL
     
  11. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

  12. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    And it is so handy for that same public to see it here first.....
     
  13. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    Damon,

    The other two (very long) threads about his topic were started by another competitor in the same area, who probably sat back with a big smile.

    At least you are honest about your identity. The other one hid behind an alias, but registered the account to their corporate email address.

    Do you think it is professional for a moulding company to publicly throw stones at their competitor, by creating a thread like this to incite malcontent? (and to likely increase its' financial gain/market share)

    I don't, and would like it to stop.

    If you have a problem with your competitor, please pick up the phone or go through the proper legal channels.

    Thanks in advance
    Mike
    Moderator
    TPFG
     
  14. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Maybe that guy from the other thread (learn to Frame in 90 minutes, or something...) knows what he's doing: Show the people where to buy and sell these things, no need to cut mats, chop frames or anything!
     
  15. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Anyone raise their hand for locking this thread???

    Aye.
     
  16. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I guess i can see us getting business from this after all.

    We will all just have to raise our fitting prices to 100 dollars a picture in a few years if this catches on... because everyone will get the pieces but not know what to do with them.

    though i know M's sells metal frames, though not neilsen for close to the same price.
     
  17. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    Seconded.

    It's much better to promote your own business than to run others down. Very low-class in my opinion.
     
  18. GUMBY GCF

    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I would hate to see any open forum censored...
     
  19. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    I don't know that they don't have a legitimate complaint if they are selling bellow wholesale. Who wouldn't take issue with it? Where else does someone come to grumble about this stuff? And now that Larson has a person grumbling wouldn't you like to hear what they have to say?
     
  20. GhostFramer

    GhostFramer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

  21. johnny

    johnny SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    ffs Jayness can you post on this well indexed internet site one more time about exactly how terrific their prices are?
     
  22. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    We received a phone call asking us to back off the last time I brought this up. If anyone@larsonjuhl.com would respond to any of this, and justify wholesale pricing on the internet, I would love to not bring it up. But I had a customer in Spokane buy a metal chop from me and then threaten to return it if I didn't match documounts price, so what should I do? Be like the rest of the sheep and not stand up to "Goliath". This info is on their website for all to see and until they admit they are selling these products to whomever they wish I feel like I need to stand up for what I feel is a legitimate issue. I know LJ pours alot of money into this site but what they are doing isn't right, what people do with this info is up to them. I would just like some answers as well as alot of my customers. Mike I understand the heat this brings but I promise this is my last effort at resolving this issue. It seems to be falling on deaf ears and/or blind eyes.
     
  23. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    On what are you basing this assertion?
     
  24. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jayness, I haven't bought moulding from LJ in ages, I am not "in their pocket", I disagree with the way you are bringing this up. We have a monster long thread related to Documounts, please append your comments about Documounts to that thread instead of starting a new one. That thread has a lot of Documount history in it and that history and the comments would be pertinent to your current complaint. Your current complaint would also add fuel to the fire that started that thread. Starting a new thread is counter roductive to your complaint and makes you look like a disgruntled competitor, not a wronged competitor. Does that last sentence make sense? If Documounts pricing is making a wholesaler have to cut below cost then that is something I want to hear about. But to have a wholesaler complain about another wholesaler in general is just sour grapes to my ears.

    If Documounts is selling your metal frames for less than you can buy them, and your a distributor, then if complaining to LJ isn't working maybe you should call the metal manufacturer and cancel your contract with them. You are being shafted and if LJ is getting a better price than you then either your manufacturer needs to give you a better price or let you out of the contract that they are breaking with you.
     
  25. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    It is no secret that LJ is the biggest advertiser for their products and I am pretty sure they have had their logo and adds on this site much like the Wizard 9000 in the top right corner. If they haven't I recant that part of my statement, and apologize sincerely. The moderaters are the only ones that would know that though.
     
  26. Thedra

    Thedra CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    In looking through the banners, no LJ logo and can't remember there ever being one. How well researched are your other assumptions?

    Tom
     
  27. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    They aren't hurting me they are hurting all of us........ this was an FYI for all of the LJ customers who are unaware of this. This is much like a product warning label, people know that it may cause cancer or something else but they are still consumers of it. I am bringing up a viable argument so lets hear what LJ has to say about selling these products so cheap, then let sleeping dogs lie.
     
  28. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    Pull up documounts.com and see for yourself.
     
  29. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I have seen LJ ads in magazines but I can not recall ever seeing any LJ ad banners on this site.

    If you want to sponsor a forum then you are free to, but i haven't ever known of LJ exercising that option.

    In fact many of my distributors, vendors do not like their reps commenting on this site, a big mistake on their part, IMO. The few companies with "representation" here have been by the owners or upper management folks. Peter from United, David from Vermont Hardwood. Paul from Framing Academy :)

    Paul is or had sponsored a forum, you can go for it. If LJ is crowding into your customer base, your territory then crowd into theirs. You sell to the Pacific Northwest, UPS will come east, sell to us on the East Coast and in between.
     
  30. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    im a few months behind. lol. because of jayness posting i finally realized exactly what they are doing over all.

    for some strange reason i thought something completely different. but he is right. at those prices they are hurting the whole industry...

    and we though 50% off sales were bad... ugh
     
  31. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Then append it to the longass thread about Documounts. Then we will see that it is a long running issue, has been an issue and when we were promised by "the offenders" that it wouldn't hurt us your comments would be proof that they "lied". Instead starting an unconnected thread looks like YOU are complaining, not that you are showing us that the offending business practice is continuing.

    I'll read your comments if they are in the other thread, but here they sound like sour grapes. Sorry, but that s the impression I get.
     
  32. Thedra

    Thedra CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Unless you are all over the map. this quote talks about this site and moderators. Again no LJ logo on the grumble. Don't neccesarily disagree with the sentiment, just the way it is being delivered! :bdh:

    Tom
     
  33. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    I am sorry for assuming Larson Juhl is a financial supporter of this site if they indeed aren't. I don't understand the anger towards me in this I know I am beating a dead horse but it interests me to know in a picture framer's forum what frame shop owners and employees think of this issue, that is all. Trust me I know for the most part most of the framers in my area have tapered their LJ orders down due to a multitude of things. This is a forum not an add I took out in the USA TODAY.
     
  34. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    That would be an erroneous assumption on your part. LJ has never advertised on or financially supported The Grumble in any manner. It is only recently that they have decided to participate, and from the general tenor of the reception from some, they may well change their mind.
    That being said, no advertiser has any sway over the policies of the management of this site. The only reason this thread would be shut down is because of its inflammatory nature and its annoying redundancy. It wouldn't be removed from the site, so no censorship would be exercised.
    How you present yourself on this forum is of your own choosing. Remember that it is a public forum, and what information and opinion you offer is read by many more that are actually registered members. Be careful where you point lest you shoot your own foot.
     
  35. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    It has been discussed to death several times, and in most cases their professional retail and shipping/handling fees are above those of retail framers. I'm sure some numbers could be worked to find a couple exceptions.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of LJ ever sponsoring this forum in any way. There are no secret influences at play here, no phone calls or emails were received. Sponsor or not, it doesn't matter. If you received a call in the past, I doubt it was from anyone on our staff.

    My complaint is that this is highly unprofessional and unethical, because you are a direct competitor; who will receive a financial benefit from this. In short, it reflects very poorly on your company.

    Mike
     
  36. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jayness, you have a valid complaint against LJ, but bring it up on the other thread. Being one known for throwing gasoline on a fire I will add that after going to Doc's website that on their about us page there is no mention that they are owned by, or were bought by LJ. THAT is an appalling, dishonest omission to me.

    The about us page makes Doc's saound like a Mom and Pop operation, not a website of one of the biggest players in the moulding game.
     
  37. JAYENESS/SPOKANE

    JAYENESS/SPOKANE True Grumbler

    They sell Artique mats.
     
  38. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    Tru dat, on onesey-twosies. On orders of, say 10+ nielsen #15's sized 24 x 36, though, Documounts' landed price is around 2x L-J's 1000ft wholesale price. I think that's where some peeps get their pantalones twisted.
     
  39. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    And not knowing that LJ is sole seller of those mats I would not know they were LJ. To me that means that the artists buying from them probably don't know that they are giving their money to a behemoth. The artists are probably thinking that they are buying from a small time operator.

    Again, bring it p in the long running thread, don't start another to complain about your competitor. It sounds like sour grapes here, not the rehashing of a valid point.

    Just like my harping about bringing it up in the other thread. It gets old hearing the same thing over and over from the same person doesn't it? Case in point, my mentioning the other thread and then including a link to the other thread.

    Wow, gets old just writing it down for you to read over and over and over again. You know, my point about the other thread... This one, in case you didn't see the link i mentioned above when I said to bring these valid points up in the other thread, the one that is long and ongoing and about this very topic...
     
  40. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob why are you so insistent that he or anyone bring it up on an old thread, before today that was buried and dead. Are you making up rules here or what?

    Do I have too much time on my hands today? Yes
     
  41. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jayness,

    From your signature and your posts it appears that you are not a customer of LJ, but a competitor whining about the competition. Those of us who are customers have debated this extensively in the other thread. I am one of those that sees this entire subject as having no impact on my choice of LJ vs. my other suppliers.

    What is your complaint? That a competitor is selling something for less in a different business model. They were doing that before LJ bought them.

    If you are complaining as a customer, I apologize for misunderstanding your status. If you read my posts in the other thread, you will see that I have a different view than the small number of customer complaints in the other thread.
     
  42. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    FWIW... I don't find the statements by Jayness any more or less professional than the many, many threads we have by framers complaining about their competitors.

    I think we should respect anyone's opinion who isn't hiding under a false name.

    This is deja-vu , from my point of view as someone in the photo finishing industry. Photo dealers have competed for many years with their suppliers selling services to the public at wholesale prices.

    My two observations: 7 out of 10 photo retailers no longer exist and my biggest supplier, Kodak, is 1/3 the size they once were.( and shrinking)


    Doug
     
  43. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Me too.

    But I bring up the other thread because if it is an on going problem or area that needs to be addressed then it will have all its history with it. One of the most useful ongoing threads is the one about LifeSaver. It brings to bear to anyone that reads it all the tips and issues with LifeSaver that has been posted about LifeSaver. If you have a question you can read that thread and know what has been said about the topic of LifeSaver software.

    This topic has been brought up before and that thread went on for months. On and on actually. And if this is just a cntinuation, really, of that conversation then any and all new participants should know what was said before about Documounts. Otherwise we are gonna be hearing the same arguments and points brought up by new people. If the Documounts thread is just appended to then any reader can read all that has been said. They will also see the promises made or implied to other Grumblers, see how long those promises lasted and base their decision on Documounts with more knowledge of the history of the Documount topic.

    To just bring it up in a new thread sounds like a new topic and it isn't. It could be a topic added to, but not dragged out and beaten to death all over again.

    This conversation would be a good addition to that thread, but as a thread on its own it feels like the monthly LJ-M-J-YK bashing threads that we have been fortunate enough to be rid of lately.

    Does that explanation of my insistence on moving the conversation there help?
     
  44. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God


    That is WAY TOO MUCH for you to expect me to read :shutup:

    Just let me know when and where I may post again ;)
     
  45. cjones1344

    cjones1344 CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    If I wasn't horribly bored I wouldn't have even looked at this thread, this horse has been beat so many times that it's just pulp by now. All reading it did for me was make me sure I would never purchase anything from the OP's moulding company. I have a competitor in town that I know badmouths my name, tells people I don't exist, and probably undercuts me just for the heck of it, but the one thing that isn't going to solve my situation is getting on a public forum and crying about it. Yes, I'm being mean.
     
  46. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Chapter One in the Emily Post Diary to online blogging etticet.


    OK, ongoing comments are a welcome addition to an existing thread. Starting a new thread for a long ongoing topic just because you thought of a new comment is bad manners.
     
  47. cjones1344

    cjones1344 CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Ok just checked documounts, and while I don't retract my previous post, I did just check a few random prices. ATG for example. I can buy 36 yard roles of 1/2" 924 for cheaper off documounts than out of the Larson book. 47.04 for a case of twelve from LJ vs 43.50 from Documounts, or 4.35 per roll from LJ vs 4.00 per roll from Documounts. A model #700 ATG dispenser is 20 dollars cheaper from documounts than from LJ. I will admit I am mildly upset about it.
     
  48. cjmst3k

    cjmst3k SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Seriously? How does it compare to non-LJ suppliers?
     
  49. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah but....

    It'll cost another $10 for the under $50 handling fee + shipping costs of $8-10 depending on where you're located. No big deal.

    However;
    If Joe Schmoe orders ten 24 x 36 Nielsen #15-20 chopped frames, he's gonna get them for about 2x L-J's 1000/ft length price (including shipping).

    ;)
     
  50. cjones1344

    cjones1344 CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    I can only find a price book for Crossroads, who I don't really order from. Their 700 dispenser is 49.95, LJ is 56.21, Documounts is 35.00. The tape from crossroads is more expensive.
     
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