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Praise EXTRA! EXTRA! Decor Atlanta is coming back!

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Ed- you have raised some very valid points. I am sorry for your loss and wish you and your family solace and peace.

I agree that there is some "baggage" with the "old" PPFA but I am happy to say that the current group of framers/leaders are open, welcoming, super friendly (and talented) and WANT your participation. The success of frameFest is a testament to their hard work - and I would say that there was a huge social element/aspect as well. I too hope to be there next year. I would have been there this year but had a conflicting family event. Last year I taught for the Capitol PPFA chapter and I think your would enjoy knowing them too. They have great meetings and they are much closer than Atlanta or Florida (we met in Alexandria).

I also appreciate your acknowledgement of having never flown or having attended the WCAF. I hope you will consider making 2015 YOUR year. Should you need some personal mentoring re: getting enough miles/points for a "free" flight, I am happy to do so - though time is of the essence as January will be here before you know it. Or, if you start now, you certainly would have enough to get to Atlanta.

My wife, Barbara was a white knuckle flyer and I have the arm scars to prove it. If you really are fearful, there are classes taught by the airlines, and there is also hypnosis which was hugely effective for Barbara and she now flies everywhere.

I am curious as to why so many do not attend trade shows- but I am really tired of the "I can't afford it" or "I can't close my business" mantra so many chant. There are many who had the same feelings and have come to learn that all your problems will be waiting for you when you return, however, the knowledge and friendships gained could more than offset the expense.
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
These days, it doesn't really matter where 80% of the population lives, you hop on a plane and it takes you where you need to go. So that comment seems a bit irrelevant.
Ylva, it certainly is relevant. There are hundreds, if not thousands of framers on the east coast who haven't been to a show in years because the owners of the shops they work for can't afford to fly them to LV, much less give them the time off to go. They can however afford to drive them to Atlanta for a day or two. Shop owners used to bring many of their employees to the Atlanta show. Car loads of them. They are the shops that need this show and so do the framers who work in those shops. The terrific educational program of the PPFA and WCAF show doesn't help them one bit. I can't tell you how often at the WCAF show a shop owner will tell me that they don't do the framing. It was their employee's who told them to come and see me. Those same framers have a lot to do with what the shop owners purchase for the shop because they are doing the framing. On the east coast most of the framers setting the trends haven't gotten to go to a show in years.

One of my accounts from
NY today, when I told her that the Atlanta show was coming back in Sept of 2015 her response was; "that is just great news!". Which is the same response that I have been getting from just about everyone I have told about the show. The fact that you only want to go to the WCAF show is perfect for you and by all means if it works for you and everyone else who has the time and money, you should keep doing what you are doing. But you are very much mistaken if you don't think time and distance matters to the east coast people. I speak with shops all over this country on a daily basis. For that reason I do have a pretty good read on the industry from the manufacturer, distributor, vendor, and shop owners perspective. It is NOT a quick plane ride from NY to LV! Nor is it cheaper for anyone who would like to bring their framers along.

To believe that the industry can't grow and prosper again only gives way to defeat. I prefer to look at it as an opportunity to get back some of what we lost when Decor shut down.
 
D

Dermot Cox-Kearns

Guest
Trade shows that are relevant to there industry don't fail...

I suspect one of the reasons Decor died was because it had become irrelevant. ..

Hankering after the past is no way to grow an industry. ..if it was we would still be using a horse and buggy. ..
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Hey Pat

I'm going with Rob on this one. Haven't looked but the ticket price difference between NY and Vegas vs NY and ATL really isn't very good justification, IMO

The ability to talk with so many talented people is immeasureable

I'll share a fun example, even if it's a few years old

Rob and I were sitting at one of those large round tables (seating about 10) visiting; probably talking about our most recent trips on mileage points LOL. All of the sudden Marc Bluestone pops over, then Jay Goltz and maybe Bill McCurry (cn't be sure). BUT,up jumped the devil and some of the brightest minds in the trade (and me) and about a dozen others were sitting down sharing ideas and doing a lot of listening.

You just have to be there and those opportunities abound. I can pretty much guarantee that so many'leaders' of the trade will spend a few minutes to visit with visitors. I'm sure you do, too

it's so much more than vendors

who knows? maybe somebody will organize a dinner to Miss PittyPattys Porch, too

Notgoing to trade shows is a mistake
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Hey Pat

I'm going with Rob on this one. Haven't looked but the ticket price difference between NY and Vegas vs NY and ATL really isn't very good justification, IMO

The ability to talk with so many talented people is immeasureable

You just have to be there and those opportunities abound. I can pretty much guarantee that so many'leaders' of the trade will spend a few minutes to visit with visitors. I'm sure you do, too

it's so much more than vendors

who knows? maybe somebody will organize a dinner to Miss PittyPattys Porch, too

Notgoing to trade shows is a mistake
I really don't understand your reasoning here Bob. You make it sound like there won't be any opportunities to connect with other framers and talented people in Atlanta. You also missed my point about time and distance. The cost of the ticket has nothing to do with E vs W. You might get cheap tickets to LV from the east, but those tickets are with stops that make the trip 8-9 hr's long. And there's the fact that like many West Coaster's do for the WCAF show, the shop owners can drive to the function and bring their employee's with them for the price of gas. No one is going to drive a carload of employees from NY to LV. But they will drive them to Atlanta from NY. The non stop flights to LV are 5.5 hrs, are $200 more, and go through 3 time zones. The flight to Atlanta is 2.25 hr's and stays in the same time zone.

Bob, this is another statement that I don't get? "it's so much more than vendors" Without the vendors what do you have? You don't have a show, that's what. A few of you seem to be making assumptions that there won't be any education or opportunities to meet and greet at the Decor show. FTR: there used to be lot's of gathering of the minds and socializing at the Decor show and there are a lot of people that many of us haven't seen in years. Reconnecting with them is something that I am really looking forward to.

As a vendor who exhibited at both the Decor and WCAF shows for years, I experienced no negative effect in traffic nor in sales results. Our's was then, and still is today, one of the busiest booths at the show. And many of the same attendees came to both shows. In my experience they were complimentary shows offering varying experiences and opportunities for the attendees. That is why I strongly support the return of Decor. IMO it will positively enhance the viability of the industry. The best thing everyone can do right now is to help make the show successful and we will all win.
 

GUMBY GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I have read whole thread and am puzzled.

How can you decide if a show is good or bad if the details have not been announced.
Not The venue, not the dates, not the classes, not the vendors, not the instructors not the cost.
Did I miss something?

Just my opinion: To talk down a anything when no facts are even known seems barking dog and subservient.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Gumby, I do agree with that, however, claiming that this is a great thing, without knowing any more details, asked for some counter balance.


Pat, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't speak.


If I would go to a trade show in the next year, I would go to the show that has been there all along, where I know what to expect instead of betting on a show without any details right now.
As it is, right now, I am not planning to go to either. I might consider Frame Fest next year.

Driving from NY to Atlanta is I believe over 800 miles. That means at least one extra night away. Time is money too. I do believe that most framers would fly to an event, unless you are within maybe a 400 mile radius (and this would apply to either Atlanta or Vegas). As I priced it out, it is only $200 more. I did not put any effort in finding the best and the cheapest. Both were direct flights, no stops no nothing.
 

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Hi Pat

i'm sorry that I didn't make myself clearer; that it upset you

Perhaps I can try again

I think members of the trade ought to experience as many opportunities as possible. I don't think it's a one vs another at all. Perhaps I misunderstood the thrust of the thread. I often hear 'I can't go because...' I don't doubt lots of good reasons, I'm sure. But, if I read the posts correctly the point was framer A in NY was now able to go to ATL but couldn't make it to Vegas seemed a little difficult

However, when I hear 'I can't afford it' is precisely the exact reason TO GO. Finding new products, new techniques, new relationships. That's reason enough to fly through 3 time zones LOL. And look at it this way NY framer gets to leave LV at noon and get back to NY about 12:30. Now, there's a deal

But, my favorite is about 'it's much more than vendors'. Spoken like a true vendor LOL

My days used to be filled pretty tightly with meeting framers, teaching, re-establishing contacts. I can pretty much guarantee that every Breakfast and dinner was talking a little biz, a lot of other stuff. My time on the floor might be 2-3 hours a day; a lot of it with existing vendors, some new. I enjoyed the non-floor time a lot more than walking up and down aisles LOL. in fact, if the show were Vendors Only, I promise I can come up with a lot more 'reasons' not to go than the cost of a ticket or how many time zones away LOL

It's the experience, the people. One trip, Jim Miller was kind enough to spend a few minutes and he shared with me the 'Joys of Mylar'. Worth a ton in years to come. Would have never had that experience had I not made the trip. Can't tell you if it was Vegas or NY or Baltimore or Chicago or Atlanta

the point is take advantage of as many opportunities as possible

And, visit a vendor LOL
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I have read whole thread and am puzzled.

How can you decide if a show is good or bad if the details have not been announced.
Not The venue, not the dates, not the classes, not the vendors, not the instructors not the cost.
Did I miss something?

Just my opinion: To talk down a anything when no facts are even known seems barking dog and subservient.
Thank you Gumby. There is a lot more info out than you might think. Check this out.
www.eventbrite.com/.../decor-expo-atlanta-2015-trade-show-tickets- 12005650223 or google - Decor Expo Atlanta 2015
 

FramerCat

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
For those educators who have said that the Décor show will not have the same educational opportunities that the Las Vegas show has, does that mean you have already decided you would not participate if you are asked? As Gumby mentioned I am having a hard time understanding how we can predict what the educational situation will be if nothing has been arranged yet.

Rob, thank you for the offer, I am seriously considering it. Since I have already revealed more personal information than I would normally care to, maybe a little more might help others who have the same questions but are afraid to ask. In the past we have gotten into a bit of trouble with credit card debt. In order to prevent a repeat of that situation we avoid using credit cards as much as possible. Is there such a thing as a rewards debit card? Also, there would be at least two of us. Would your strategy cover two or more people?

Other concerns that people might have about the Las Vegas show may involve gambling addiction, alcoholism, family situations that prevent them from traveling long distances, serious phobias, health concerns and lots of other very personal problems that they would rather not discuss publicly with a stranger. So the easiest answer is “It’s too expensive.” Which if you think about it might be very true, just not in the sense of plane tickets and hotel rooms. I myself may or may not have one or several of the issues listed.

So back to the educators in general, there are lots of reasons that east coast framers won’t or can’t go to LV. If you are afraid there will be a lack of educational opportunities in Atlanta, this is something that you can prevent. Get involved. Let the organizers know that you are available. If you are in it for the betterment of the industry more so than to promote the agenda of your chosen faction, the tiny amount of money you receive or just ego, support this show and any others that you can attend. If Rob Markoff can forgive and forget, so can you. Even if this is just a whizzing contest (which I think it appears to be to a lot of framers) extend a hand anyway. Whether they accept or reject it you still appear the bigger person and it will win you the respect of a lot of us framing peasants.

Ed
 

RParrish

PFG, Picture Framing God
In the past year, I have been to 4 events, WCAF 2014, 3 hour flight Nelson's Educational Seminar/PPFA meeting in April, 3 hour drive, Louisville KY for a PPFA meeting in April or May, 6 hour drive and just a couple weeks ago to a PPFA Wisconsin Chapter meeting in John Ranes's shop in Appleton, 7 hour drive. WCAF I bought items for the shop, the others I learned new things, I had not known before, both tangible and intangible. There is always a rate of return in education, There is always a cost to travel, time away from family and work. I was one of those framers for 15+ years, never went anywhere, I knew everything, but you don't know what you don't know, until I found the Grumble and the PPFA. To spend time with other professionals, to create and maintain contacts, to have them open up their shops to you is always a learning benefit. I can guarantee you will always walk out of trade show or PPFA meeting with more than you came in with.

Who knows what will happen with Decor, WCAF is 4 months away and there is no public schedule. The real question is, are the vendors going to support Decor.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Beautifully said, Randy.

No one is going to have a gun held to their head to force them to attend. And yes, I agree that Décor has a lot of fences to mend. However, I believe our industry needs, and will benefit from a second trade magazine, and a second trade show. It will be good for the industry and good for advertisers and exhibitors.

I also think the industry needs a marketing association, one that has ties to the home furnishings industry. But we can save that for another day.
 

FramerCat

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
"I also think the industry needs a marketing association, one that has ties to the home furnishings industry. But we can save that for another day."

Paul, start that thread. I definitely agree and have some opinions and ideas on that.

Ed
 

John Ranes II CPF GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
John Ranes -- If you read this what was the name of the meat loaf place you took a group of us to in NYC for dinner years ago when we did a social night out after a day at a framing trade show. ...I would like to bring Jean there...
Dermot, It was Louie's Westside Cafe and we would go there every time we were in NYC...up on 82nd and Amsterdam. I have hear rumors that it is no longer in business...so please confirm. The meat loaf was to die for!

...I did email you ...but no response. ...perhaps I have an old email address. ..
You probably do... my email address is always included at the bottom of every post on all three forums! :thumbsup:

John
 

DVieau2

PFG, Picture Framing God
>>>>I also think the industry needs a marketing association, one that has ties to the home furnishings industry. But we can save that for another day.<<<<
>>>>>Paul, start that thread. I definitely agree and have some opinions and ideas on that.<<<<<
>>>>>Enough, Paul! It's no longer the Decor that cause the problems.<<<<<


New thread please, new thread please!

This comes up every couple of years but what the heck, things change, tempers mellow, moderators forget...... lets talk about again.

Doug
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I don't have an opinion about a show that doesn't have any more information than is currently publicly available. I always enjoyed going to Atlanta, so I will be watching to see what happens. It is driving distance for me, so it won't require a huge amount of advance planning.

But there seem to be some real cheerleaders here for something about which little information is available...or forthcoming here. I am beginning to wonder if we have some "insiders" who have financial or other incentives to promote an embryonic idea?

WCAF & PPFA are right up front about who is getting reimbursements or payment, so I find this confusing.

I would find it helpful to know that on the front-end. Have any of you been approached by the magazine or the show with offers to participate? Anybody getting discounts or checks from Decor?
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I don't have an opinion about a show that doesn't have any more information than is currently publicly available. ...
Seriously? That sure sounds like an opinion.

So then, you also believe that Framefest was an unnecessary?
 

John Ranes II CPF GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I'm sure that Decor is pleased to see a thread about their return to Atlanta get this much Buzzzz :D And although the structure, format, size is still undetermined, it is OK that framer's weigh in with their thoughts and opinions on a second major industry show in the United States.

Why not?

Which Show? It may not be a one or the other scenario for some framers, it might be both....or none! Amazing as it may seem, their are framers functioning out there that have never or seldom attended a trade show, never taken PPFA or trade show seminars and classes, never felt a desire to join PPFA or any trade association, and yet they still survive. :shrug: Combine that thought with the reality of a declining number of potential attendees, and the decline in popularity of trade shows in general....and you have an interesting discussion.

  • Decor would like re-introduce the Atlanta Show, have it be successful both in attendance and financially.
  • Framers who attend either or both shows want to get their money's worth. Taking time away from your business is an investment...we want an ROI as well and concern is that this new baby may or may not do that for us... remains to be seen. ;)
  • I'm sure that the WCAF owners and staff wish Decor well but obviously have concerns about the effect of taking away from their show and future shows. Again...This remains to be seen.

Pat Kotnour said:
The Decor show was always somewhere in the first 10 days of Sept. and was very well attended. Many shops would use it it pick up artwork and to get deals on moulding and mat boards for the holiday market . Having the two shows spaced so far apart and at such different times of year was one of the things that made it good. It was also the reason one show didn't hurt the other.
Agreed Pat, the timing of the two shows when they were both strong, Before 9/11 and the GR worked well. Keep in mind that trade shows were viewed differently then.

Ylva said:
For working mom framers, September is possibly the worst month to go to a show. Anyone who ever had to handle the start of a new school year would know that.
By the first and second weeks of September, aren't most working moms already in a regular routine? We tend to seem working moms too busy in the last three weeks of August more than in September. So actually, I think that their timing is OK.

Ylva said:
...These days, it doesn't really matter where 80% of the population lives, you hop on a plane and it takes you where you need to go. So that comment seems a bit irrelevant.
What was before the great recession is not relevant either. We are nowhere near where we were before. Less framers, shrinking industry, so I think the concern of 2 major shows is very valid.
Thinking 'build it and they will come' seems very naive to me. Most framers, if they consider going to a show will pick one or the other. Sure, there might be a few who would go to both.
I'm not so sure that it is that simple Ylva and might agree with Pat on this. There are plenty of framers below the radar screen* who will drive from GA, FL, TN, SC, NC KY, AL and MS to Atlanta for a day trip. Draw a radius at 300 miles around Atlanta and look at the coverage. Now draw a radius out to 500-600 miles.

It's important to realize that for many, taking that trip to LV in January takes dedicated planning, buying the tickets and the reserving the hotels, lining up staff to cover the store, etc. Ylva - you are thinking progressively, but many framers do not and a week out... a day trip to Atlanta is something they THINK they can handle. It's just the difference in attitude.

Ylva said:
...Framers who have not been to a show since the last Decor show. I doubt it was because of time and distance. If you could only pick one show, and believe me, that is a most likely scenario for a lot of framers, what would you pick?

I know what I would do. Vegas all the way...
Again, that is you, and for you that is an airline trip either way, so until Decor matches WCAF in scope, it is an easy decision....FOR YOU. :)

Pat Kotnour said:
...There are hundreds, if not thousands of framers on the east coast who haven't been to a show in years because the owners of the shops they work for can't afford to fly them to LV, much less give them the time off to go. They can however afford to drive them to Atlanta for a day or two. Shop owners used to bring many of their employees to the Atlanta show. Car loads of them. They are the shops that need this show and so do the framers who work in those shops.
Although it might be more HUNDREDS than THOUSANDS, I agree with you Pat, that a successful SE Show would be convenient for them, especially if they bring employees in for a day trip.


Pat Kotnour said:
...The terrific educational program of the PPFA and WCAF show doesn't help them one bit....
Here I think that you are missing the boat Pat. Keep in mind that trade shows are in Decline...everywhere in the world....in many different industries. With that in mind, the first two WCAF Shows had very small trade shows...really small! :faintthud: And despite this, folks in OUR industry were talking about WCAF as an event to put on their calendar as if it had been around for 30 years! The trade show followed and grew. Why were they so successful out of the gate? Two words: Education and Socialization. This is what is unique about the framing industry as compared to the Gift or Home Decor industry where Product is King.

And as far as education being a draw to attract larger shops bringing employees...It does. Every time an educator checks on mix of the class, one will find employees attending.

Dermot Cox-Kearns said:
Trade shows that are relevant to their industry don't fail... I suspect one of the reasons Decor died was because it had become irrelevant. ..
Dermot,

Very astute observation. Keep in mind that Decor was also plagued by 9/11 at the same time and more than likely some internal issues that most of us know little about.

Bob Carter said:
Hey Pat

I'm going with Rob on this one. Haven't looked but the ticket price difference between NY and Vegas vs NY and ATL really isn't very good justification, IMO

Not going to trade shows is a mistake
Bob....the airline ticket price depends upon where you reside. And not everyone has the time and energy to make Mileage Point collection an art form like Rob. :icon19:

BTW - I think Pat agrees with you on the not attending a trade show is a mistake.

RParrish said:
In the past year, I have been to 4 events... ...I was one of those framers for 15+ years, never went anywhere, I knew everything, but you don't know what you don't know, until I found the Grumble and the PPFA. To spend time with other professionals, to create and maintain contacts, to have them open up their shops to you is always a learning benefit. I can guarantee you will always walk out of trade show or PPFA meeting with more than you came in with.
Randy went through an epiphany. Some framers get it. Some never do. :shrug:

RParrish said:
...Who knows what will happen with Decor, WCAF is 4 months away and there is no public schedule. The real question is, are the vendors going to support Decor.
That is an equally valid question and one that is at the core of the decline to trade shows in many industries. The manufacturer or distributor has to determine, is the one-on-one contact worth $XX,000 for three days. Can we spend this money elsewhere to reach our potential clients?

I'm sure that these discussions will continue right up until September 2015. In the meantime, Be nice.


John
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Paul, When I say I don't have an opinion, I mean simply that. And you may have confused my post with someone else's, since I know I didn't say anything like there were too many shows. If I had my way, I would have one a week to choose from.:smiley:

But, I also noticed that you didn't answer my questions....maybe I wasn't clear enough about that, either.

Do you know of anyone who is posting on this thread that has a financial interest in Decor or its affiliates? I seem to remember that full-disclosure of commercial affiliations is very important to you.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Okay. Fair enough. After a long hiatus, I am once again writing what was one of the industry's longest running (more than a decade) and most popular columns -- The Guerrilla Framer.

To date, I've received no compensation, although I expect to. I've made no commitment to the show and have no connection to it. However, I think its good for the industry to have another magazine, and another trade show and I'm disappointed in the hateful and negative comments in this thread by some of those who are affiliated with the PPFA trade show classes. Go back and read this thread from the beginning and look at the venomous tone that some have chosen to take toward an event that is nothing but a positive for most of the industry.

I've tried not to respond in kind to these comments, because haters are gong to hate. However, we're all in this industry together, so rather than defecating on it, just choose to stay home. You won't be missed.

http://decormagazine.com/digital-magazine/
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I'm going to have to learn how to self-promote, I'll go back and read some of your posts.
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Paul, When I say I don't have an opinion, I mean simply that. And you may have confused my post with someone else's, since I know I didn't say anything like there were too many shows. If I had my way, I would have one a week to choose from.:smiley:

But, I also noticed that you didn't answer my questions....maybe I wasn't clear enough about that, either.

Do you know of anyone who is posting on this thread that has a financial interest in Decor or its affiliates? I seem to remember that full-disclosure of commercial affiliations is very important to you.
Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm pretty sure that it is me you are referring to and are wondering if I have some investment in the Decor show. The answer is no. My only reason for backing this show and being so vocal about it is because I, like many other small companies lost 30% of my sales when Decor went down. And if you don't think that hurt, think again. The fact that I survived it was nothing less than a miracle. I have been after the RW Group to get this show back on line for years. It is my only motivation and both Eric and Micheal will tell you that. The reason I was the first to bring the news out about Atlanta coming back is because I am in touch with the RW Group about the New York show and told Michael that if they ever brought the Atlanta show back I wanted to know about it. So when the dates and hotel was set for the show and it was getting off the ground, Micheal did as I had asked and let me know the good news. There is no underlying payback coming my way. The only hope that I have is that by giving them a thumbs up early and commitment to a 20 ft booth, I will get first choice on booth space. And even if that doesn't happen, I don't care. The show is a good thing for the industry and I will be there in what ever way they need me. If that means teaching a class. I'm happy to help them out.
 

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Go back and read this thread from the beginning and look at the venomous tone that some have chosen to take toward an event that is nothing but a positive for most of the industry.
I did, Paul and can't seem to find the venomous tone you are referencing. I don't think there was a single post that said DON'T GO to the Atlanta show or had untruthful things to say.

Let's step back for a moment-

When the National Conference was first established, the "trade show" aspect was a minor part of an "Educational Conference." Deborah Salmon's focus was always on the education and she has developed an incredible line up of classes and events that is second to none - even when DECOR was at its heyday. The Trade Show was an "extra added attraction" and I think you will find that the Gherman's have always intentionally kept the show small (and there were plenty of opportunities to make it larger).

Now that PPFA is also holding their Convention concurrently (and all PPFA classes are open to anyone) - there has never been more classes offered at one location anywhere. There are also TWO bookstores with more framing related publications that DECOR ever had.

Now this is just my opinion, but I believe that the DECOR focus is on a Trade Show (with some "obligatory" education). They want to sell booth space. With Las Vegas, there is a stronger focus/commitment on Education.

Knowing what goes into the National Conference and the logistics, I can assure you that the new management of DECOR has neither the staff or experience of putting on an educational conference the size of what will be happening in Las Vegas. This isn't a venomous tone, but a realistic comment. I am sure that whatever education DECOR (and possibly with the PPFA) puts on it will be first rate, but the scope of the offerings will not be as large as what will be available in Las Vegas.

For those of you who are hoping for "new" educators, let's look at the realities for a moment: There are some very talented picture framers in our industry, but just because you can do a technique or have an "idea" I do not think that also translates to being a qualified instructor. There are some excellent "outside" speakers but most of them would laugh at the pittance being offered for teaching a class. To give you an idea, for the PPFA Keynote, I am on a committee who researched potential speakers. Most would't even talk to me unless we had at least $10,000 for a 45 minute talk. I can assure you that the current instructors don't even get 1/10th of that for a 2 hour class and there is no renumeration for "development". I know instructors who have over 8 hours in just PowerPoint prep.

That also means carefully "vetting" the content of a class so that the products demonstrated/used do not benefit one particular company or the instructor - and the attendees do not pay for a class that could be construed as an advotorial. Yes, there are company sponsored classes, but they are paid for entirely by the company who presents the class and that fact is made known. Usually these classes are "free."

There is a lot that goes into the development, then "creation" of a class and the ability to get in front of a group of people and manage the time, express your ideas clearly, field questions and also dealingl with the inevitable person(s) in the class "who know more than you do" is a skill that is also refined over time. Deborah and the PPFA read all the "evaluations" turned in at the end of the class and I can tell you that the section on "what other classes would you like to offered" is most often left blank. Want some different classes, suggest them.

I know that if an instructor consistently received high praise, they are invited back. If they do not get well reviewed by attendees they do not.

Would you really want to pay your hard earned money, travel to anywhere and attend a class from "first time teacher(s)" who have never been vetted? Where do you think these "new" teachers will come from?

Hey Paul- you used to write for PFM and you used to teach at the National Conference but now I see you do neither. What happened?
 

Karen

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
All I can say is that I'm looking forward to the Atlanta show. It's been years since I've been to a trade show. The last one I went to was in Vegas and it was okay but once to Vegas was enough. I know some love it but I didn't care for it. My reasons for not attending a show for so long are #1: I really can't afford it, the economy in our town hasn't come back so framing is a luxury not a necessity, my customers know this and hold tight to the purse strings #2: I don't use credit cards so mileage points aren't there #3: I'm a one person shop and don't want to be gone for a week and #4: I hate flying and I'm sure not going to drive to Vegas. Atlanta is a 7 hour drive for me so no flying required, I have a sister who lives there which means no hotel bills either so the money I save from traveling can be used for items that I need for my store and I only have to be gone about 3 days if I want. I loved the classes I attended when the show use to be in Atlanta and learned a lot from them so I don't see why I wouldn't learn something from any classes that I chose to take what ever they may be. I also met a lot of grumblers at the Atlanta show and would love to meet any others that choose to attend!! I made a lot of contacts back then that I'm still in contact with today. For me personally a west coast show isn't gonna happen again but a east coast show is perfect. But that's just my 2 cents.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Thanks Karen. I hope the show is a success and that find it meets your needs. Thanks for sharing.

Rob, I'm working as a Petroleum Transport Engineer for Exxon. Exit 11 on the Jersey Turnpike. I can work two pumps at once. Probably be a manager soon. Just want you to know that I love your posts -- it's always great to learn again and again how wonderful and important you are. And it's so clever how you turn each post into a plea for employment.

Actually, Rob, I was in Alexandria, VA last week teaching framing (also coffee roasting and winemaking). And I was teaching framing in Baltimore the week before that.

This week, I'll do the same in Princeton thanks for asking. Wanna help? I'm looking for someone to take over and expand our west coast classes.
 

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Paul-

Thanks for the offer. If it was sincere, you know how to reach me. I would love to explore the opportunity mentioned and I am pleased you would consider having me work for you.

Very excited for your potential management position. Keep up the good work!
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
My take on the whole tinkling contest going on here is as follows:

I go to shows to buy merchandise and equipment which I did a ton of in Atlanta. Last Vegas show I found that the vendors were there to socialize and take orders for corner samples from framers and I don't order corner samples, I buy inventory.

I got quite miffed at nearly every vendor in Vegas to the point where I walked away from them all during the show and have not looked back. Follow up by vendors was so poor to the point where I have quite a few reps call on me and ask why I never buy from them. Reps come into the shop and see hundreds of boxes of moulding I purchase from their competitors and want a slice of the pie. Too late since they blew it in Vegas and I am serviced by all the vendors I could ever hope for and have reps standing in line for a chance to sell me something.

When vendors don't make numbers at shows they drop out and shows dwindle. Educate away while I buy from companies who know how to do business rather than take orders for free samples from small volume shops. I won't beg anyone to take an order from me or devote time to show me their line.

Now I just hope an educator does not try to explain another technique that has been recently adopted by the PPFA which I have known to be best practice for 30 years like the last time we had this discussion. I don't offer 90% of what I know how to do since I don't have customers willing to fairly compensate me for those practices. I'm not looking to reinvent my business to go after that customer base since I'm way too busy to care by doing what I do now.

Show me a vendor who doesn't care about selling merchandise at a trade show and I'll start chiseling their name on a headstone.
 

JP Herb

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
All I can say is that I'm looking forward to the Atlanta show. It's been years since I've been to a trade show. The last one I went to was in Vegas and it was okay but once to Vegas was enough. I know some love it but I didn't care for it. My reasons for not attending a show for so long are #1: I really can't afford it, the economy in our town hasn't come back so framing is a luxury not a necessity, my customers know this and hold tight to the purse strings #2: I don't use credit cards so mileage points aren't there #3: I'm a one person shop and don't want to be gone for a week and #4: I hate flying and I'm sure not going to drive to Vegas. Atlanta is a 7 hour drive for me so no flying required, I have a sister who lives there which means no hotel bills either so the money I save from traveling can be used for items that I need for my store and I only have to be gone about 3 days if I want. I loved the classes I attended when the show use to be in Atlanta and learned a lot from them so I don't see why I wouldn't learn something from any classes that I chose to take what ever they may be. I also met a lot of grumblers at the Atlanta show and would love to meet any others that choose to attend!! I made a lot of contacts back then that I'm still in contact with today. For me personally a west coast show isn't gonna happen again but a east coast show is perfect. But that's just my 2 cents.
Karen I'm with you. Back in the day I went to both shows and found that the Decor show was good for Christmas buying and ordering supplies. For me, I don't like to fly either and it is six of one for either show. I remember the classes being good at Decor and not as expensive as vegas. I have taken classes many times but never go to the shows for the classes. I go to see whats new and to see the vendors. What I have found is that there is as much to learn on the show floor as there is sitting in a class that I have seen 3 times before. Las vegas classes are getting old and tired. It would be good to see some new faces.

When the National Conference was first established, the "trade show" aspect was a minor part of an "Educational Conference." Deborah Salmon's focus was always on the education and she has developed an incredible line up of classes and events that is second to none - even when DECOR was at its heyday. The Trade Show was an "extra added attraction" and I think you will find that the Gherman's have always intentionally kept the show small (and there were plenty of opportunities to make it larger).
Now that PPFA is also holding their Convention concurrently (and all PPFA classes are open to anyone) - there has never been more classes offered at one location anywhere. There are also TWO bookstores with more framing related publications that DECOR ever had.
Why do you always try to make the thread about WCAF and PPFA? It isn't. Stop trying to change the subject to your own ajenda that you have made known that you have a stake in.

Now this is just my opinion, but I believe that the DECOR focus is on a Trade Show (with some "obligatory" education). They want to sell booth space. With Las Vegas, there is a stronger focus/commitment on Education.

Knowing what goes into the National Conference and the logistics, I can assure you that the new management of DECOR has neither the staff or experience of putting on an educational conference the size of what will be happening in Las Vegas. This isn't a venomous tone, but a realistic comment. I am sure that whatever education DECOR (and possibly with the PPFA) puts on it will be first rate, but the scope of the offerings will not be as large as what will be available in Las Vegas.
For those of you who are hoping for "new" educators, let's look at the realities for a moment: There are some very talented picture framers in our industry, but just because you can do a technique or have an "idea" I do not think that also translates to being a qualified instructor. There are some excellent "outside" speakers but most of them would laugh at the pittance being offered for teaching a class. To give you an idea, for the PPFA Keynote, I am on a committee who researched potential speakers. Most would't even talk to me unless we had at least $10,000 for a 45 minute talk. I can assure you that the current instructors don't even get 1/10th of that for a 2 hour class and there is no renumeration for "development". I know instructors who have over 8 hours in just PowerPoint prep.
That also means carefully "vetting" the content of a class so that the products demonstrated/used do not benefit one particular company or the instructor - and the attendees do not pay for a class that could be construed as an advotorial. Yes, there are company sponsored classes, but they are paid for entirely by the company who presents the class and that fact is made known. Usually these classes are "free."
There is a lot that goes into the development, then "creation" of a class and the ability to get in front of a group of people and manage the time, express your ideas clearly, field questions and also dealingl with the inevitable person(s) in the class "who know more than you do" is a skill that is also refined over time. Deborah and the PPFA read all the "evaluations" turned in at the end of the class and I can tell you that the section on "what other classes would you like to offered" is most often left blank. Want some different classes, suggest them.

I know that if an instructor consistently received high praise, they are invited back. If they do not get well reviewed by attendees they do not.
Do you have crystal ball or something. The only thing I get from you is that you don't want to let any new people in and that if Decor does bring in new people to teach you might not get as much work in the furture. It makes me wonder who is vetting you?

Would you really want to pay your hard earned money, travel to anywhere and attend a class from "first time teacher(s)" who have never been vetted? Where do you think these "new" teachers will come from?
I sure would. The classes at vegas are getting old. New faces with new ideas would be the best thing Decor could do for the show. I'm there either way.
 

Joe B

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
JP Herb - I agree with EVERY word you said - EVERY! I hope the Atlanta show is a big success and I hope they have a whole new team of educators - I said that in post #26.
I will definitely be going to Atlanta next September. I haven't decided on the WCAF because I was there last year. If I do go to the WCAF it will mainly be to see the vendors and new products, maybe I will only have to spend a day or 2 there that way. If there is a new class that looks inviting I may even take in a class but I guarantee you there are some educators I will steer away from. I know that Atlanta will be less expensive overall trip and I am looking forward to it.
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
All I can say is that I'm looking forward to the Atlanta show. It's been years since I've been to a trade show. The last one I went to was in Vegas and it was okay but once to Vegas was enough. I know some love it but I didn't care for it. My reasons for not attending a show for so long are #1: I really can't afford it, the economy in our town hasn't come back so framing is a luxury not a necessity, my customers know this and hold tight to the purse strings #2: I don't use credit cards so mileage points aren't there #3: I'm a one person shop and don't want to be gone for a week and #4: I hate flying and I'm sure not going to drive to Vegas. Atlanta is a 7 hour drive for me so no flying required, I have a sister who lives there which means no hotel bills either so the money I save from traveling can be used for items that I need for my store and I only have to be gone about 3 days if I want. I loved the classes I attended when the show use to be in Atlanta and learned a lot from them so I don't see why I wouldn't learn something from any classes that I chose to take what ever they may be. I also met a lot of grumblers at the Atlanta show and would love to meet any others that choose to attend!! I made a lot of contacts back then that I'm still in contact with today. For me personally a west coast show isn't gonna happen again but a east coast show is perfect. But that's just my 2 cents.
You are not alone Karen. There are many like you all over the east coast who have not been to a show in years. Atlanta was always good for end of year buying. I loveed both shows at the time of year each was held and never felt like one was taking away from the other. Many shops went to both and I believe some will still go to both, but many more will finally go back to a show after a long time not attending.
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
I miss the shows at the old passenger liner piers in NYC. I could drive in and park right on the roof!
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I am overwhelmed by all the mudslinging on this thread and the words everyone puts into everyone's mouth.


For the record, I might be skeptical about this show. Which does NOT mean I want it to fail. Which also does NOT mean I would never attend.

However, if I had only time and money to go to one show, would I go to one that has been there for years and years, or spend money on the one that has not been around for a while, which had some other bad happenings (with people not getting paid). No matter is it is a new owner, new organization. I believe they would probably have been better of renaming the whole thing. And yes, that is just MY opinion as well. Of course it is since it's me typing this.

I do believe there is space for 2 shows and even more, if both are well run and are not too much like each other. We don't need the same show twice a year.

As for the timing, our schools start AFTER Labor Day, therefore September is quite a difficult month for me, as a mom, getting kids back into routine and no, that does not happen in a week. My husband probably would also say it's not a problem at all. Just saying.

For those closer to Atlanta, yes, I can see the benefit of being able to drive there. I would feel the exact same way if the show was in Boston. Why is it not in Boston?????? :shutup:
 

FramerCat

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I am very happy that some of the rest of you are finally expressing openly and in PMs and emails the same issues that I have with traveling to distant shows, and the same "apparent misunderstanding" of the intent of some of the posters. I hope this thread can be educational to some of the educators that perhaps they should word their posts more carefully and re-read them as if they were the common framer before submitting. These misunderstandings of the intent of their biggest and most vocal representatives might partially be the reason for the majority of framers not joining the PPFA or attending any shows.

Rob, the industry has to have new educators eventually, if not the industry will die when the current educators retire. I agree with you that teaching is an entirely different thing than framing and educators have to have both skills to be successful. Do you currently have any apostles that will carry on your teachings after you retire? Maybe you should be considering who will carry on your legacy and start teaching them now if you have not already. New educators might not be as great at first (just like new framers) but they will catch on just like you did.

Ed
 

FramerCat

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
For those closer to Atlanta, yes, I can see the benefit of being able to drive there. I would feel the exact same way if the show was in Boston. Why is it not in Boston?????? :shutup:
My favorite was the Baltimore show, but since I might have been the only one who attended and I fully understand all of the costs of trying to do business in MD and especially Baltimore, I understand why they won't do that again.

Ed
 

JP Herb

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
JP Herb - I agree with EVERY word you said - EVERY! I hope the Atlanta show is a big success and I hope they have a whole new team of educators - I said that in post #26.
I will definitely be going to Atlanta next September. I haven't decided on the WCAF because I was there last year. If I do go to the WCAF it will mainly be to see the vendors and new products, maybe I will only have to spend a day or 2 there that way. If there is a new class that looks inviting I may even take in a class but I guarantee you there are some educators I will steer away from. I know that Atlanta will be less expensive overall trip and I am looking forward to it.
I'm there with you.
 

Grey Owl

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
First, I hope that Decor Atlanta is very successful, and that enough vendors and framers attend to make it successful so it can be repeated. Because if 2015 is successful, then 2016 and 2017 will be even better as they build on their successes.

And I hope lots of framers within driving distance will go; unfortunately, because of general framer apathy, I doubt more than single digits well, but I hope I am wrong.

For you, Pat, this is definitely a great opportunity. Your product can be used by any framer, large or small, so those that have not seen you before will love your offerings.

For me, I will go to WCAF, as I have already planned on it, and looking at travel now because 3 to 4 months before is the time to get the cheapest rooms and airfare. (For many of us, the hotel is more expensive than airfare). And because I know some of my good framer friends will be there.

Come next summer, I will look at my companies finances, and Decor Atlanta's offering and then I will make a decision.

For those that want full disclosure, first I am a Small Independent Picture Framer, and that is my priority. Second, I am a PPFA member, because it is only $14.58 a month ($175.00 a year,) and even less if you haven't been a member before, and I'm active in PPFA because I get more out of it. Third, if Rob has a dinner at any convention, then that will raise my interest in attending because the wonderful framing friends I can meet at such unusual outings.

PS. If you want a different kind of class from that being offered at WCAF National Conference, or the PPFA Convention Classes, give a call to someone at Decor and tell them what you want. I'm sure they would appreciate it. And if you want different WCAF National Conference classes, call them.

An lastly, if you want different PPFA Convention classes, join PPFA, ask to volunteer for the education committee, and make a difference. And as far as pay for your PPFA education committee work, you will get nothing, except if you pay your own way to the Convention, and you pay your own admission to the PPFA Convention meeting, you will receive a thank you when they call your name for all of the time you spent trying to help our industry.
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I am very happy that some of the rest of you are finally expressing openly and in PMs and emails the same issues that I have with traveling to distant shows, and the same "apparent misunderstanding" of the intent of some of the posters. I hope this thread can be educational to some of the educators that perhaps they should word their posts more carefully and re-read them as if they were the common framer before submitting. These misunderstandings of the intent of their biggest and most vocal representatives might partially be the reason for the majority of framers not joining the PPFA or attending any shows.

Rob, the industry has to have new educators eventually, if not the industry will die when the current educators retire. I agree with you that teaching is an entirely different thing than framing and educators have to have both skills to be successful. Do you currently have any apostles that will carry on your teachings after you retire? Maybe you should be considering who will carry on your legacy and start teaching them now if you have not already. New educators might not be as great at first (just like new framers) but they will catch on just like you did.

Ed
I just don't get the bunker mentality of some of these PPFA people. You're really not helping your cause.
 

GreyDrakkon

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I'm a bit reluctant to jump in on this conversation since people are getting riled up, and I'm new to actually owning a store as of this year. However, I worked at this shop for over a decade, and I can tell you that at least in my experience, having a show closer to home would have made a HUGE difference as to whether or not my boss would have sent me out to attend. I did manage to go to the Vegas show once with another employee, and it was like pulling teeth trying to get him to commit to sending us (and funding us). Now, if there had been a show we could have driven to instead of fly, or if we had to fly but we'd be back and away quicker, he probably would have been more likely to let us go more than once.

Of course, it's anecdotal, but then again so is everyone's personal experience in this matter.

I'm glad to hear about another show starting (or re-starting as the case may be) and I hope it does well, as I hope the Vegas one continues to do well.
 

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Thanks for the help - so it means, "defensiveness resulting from repeated attacks." Exactly.

If you weren't so offensive, it would not be necessary to be so defensive.

Is there any wonder why so many have fled the Grumble, including most of the educators?
 

Paul Cascio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
LOL. Nice try, Markoff.

BUNKER MENTALITY. : a state of mind especially among members of a group that is characterized by chauvinistic defensiveness and self-righteous intolerance of criticism.

Go click the link again.

Rob, I suppose that even if you only teach for a few hours once, or even a few times, a year that you can call yourself an educator. I know you love the title. It's like that weekend warrior thing. Okay, you're an educator. We get it.
 

Mike Labbe

Member, Former moderator team volunteer
This aggressive behavior is really getting ugly, and is not healthy for the forum. It creates the opposite of a welcoming environment, and stifles/eclipses any legitimate discussion. It's very possible to have an intelligent/productive discussion among professionals, less the personal attacks, digs, and ego/chest beating.

Our host asks us simply to "BE NICE" in his online home (forum). Let's self police and respect his wishes please, without forcing/demanding that the host or mods to do something about it. Do you realize how many times these threads have been reported in the past few days, citing hidden agendas and personal attacks? Far too many, IMO. It's a lot of work to keep up with it, and we shouldn't NEED to.

Please... Let's try to keep it professional, so we can make a positive difference that benefits everyone. Something where people will WANT to get involved, rather than holding back in fear of being attacked. I know we can do it!

Thanks in advance, to all, from your mod team volunteers
 
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