Framing Standards: Yes? No? Maybe?

Originally posted by nona powers:
...Thanks Jim for the math, I'm glad to know I was right...
You're welcome, Nona. But please don't be too impressed, since it's pure speculation on my part.

Anyway, you're still right.
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SPEAKING OF STANDARDS.....
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ok..I am new here, but I really need feedback on this one. Its a long story so I will try to sum it up. My customer brought me a signed and numbers litho she bought for $600 in Hawaii, directly from Wyland galleries. When she bought it to me was "ready to frame" when I recieved it I opened it and discovered that both of the mats were paper! I was discusted and angry because I know she specifically asked and was told that they were acid free. I called the gallery framer and he told me that they often use paper for a top mat, but he claimed that the matboard touching the art was acid free. That was not the case, but to me the point was why do they even order it knowing that it was the lowest quality matboard available? You are not gonna belive what he said...Then he said to me "its only a litho". What planet is he from?...to me a signed and numbered Litho is very valuable and should be treated with great care and respect. This is a very HIGH END Gallery! To make matters worse the artwork was taped(with plain clear tape) to the corners of the paper matboard!...Then when I turned it over, I discovered that the certificate of authenticity was glued to the back board. Please tell me if you think I am out of line by going up the chain of command in the corperation. I need support here guys, I have emails and other correspondence you could read to hear their official responce. The basic responce by them about the matboard is " Acid free Matboards are way too expensive ". I am appauled, they just did not seem to think that it would be a good idea to change to a better quality board. They said that they have been framing like this for over 15 yrs and they have never heard a complaint yet. I was shocked!...I said "Well isnt once enough? If your framer did not know the damage that plain paper matboard can do to an original peice of art before I brought it to your attention, then I would hope that now you are informed that your policies for framing will improve." She told me that Wyland himself was aware of the matboards he uses...he is trying to keep the prices down so more people can start collecting his fine art. My responce was.."well perhaps he could start collectors out on the right foot and let them get a product that will keep the value, instead of trying use the cheapest possible supplies to attain maximum profit.
I mean come on guys....we all know that Matboards are cheap. I am a little frame shop and the most I pay for cotten rag matboards is $12.
So please ;)
Let me know what you think after reading this...I need to know that I am not alone in feeling this is just plain cheap, wrong, and disgraceful .
Thanks for taking the time in reading this.
Any advice would be very helpfull
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Becca
 
Becca, welcome to The Grumble.

First of all, don't be shy about starting a new thread. It's not really a big step.

Second, give the elderly, and the elderly-at-heart, among us a break and leave a little white space in your posts. We get overwhelmed by big blocks of text, especially early in the morning.

The work you're describing may very well be the defacto standard in our industry right now. Both mats are almost certainly "acid-free" and buffered, though, if they are not lignen-free, they will become acidic eventually. The clear tape was probably/possibly "Framer's Tape" which is advertised in some markets as an acid-free adhesive, suitable for conservation framing.

I'm not defending what was done but, come to think of it, your post is a perfect indication of why industry-wide standards are so important. (So you posted it in the right place after all.)

For me, standards are all about information and education, so don't expect that they will ever be universal or that anyone is going to enforce them. But, as they become better known, ignorance will become less of an excuse.

Again, welcome to our little Grumble community. Rant often. We'll understand.
 
Welcome to the Grumble Becca!

I am surprised that you are so shocked. There is more artist, galleries, and framers that use the 'cheap stuff', than there is using the 'good stuff'. I see it all the time. All we can really do is inform your customer what was done and offer to fix it. My long time customers are now asking for prints only when they buy from art shows, or galleries when traveling.

You can't change this over night. You just have to educate one person at a time.
 
wow thanks for the quick responce guys, and gals!
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good morning!
Ron---hehehe sorry that was a long wordy rant, next time I will give you a break.
No I know for a fact that matboards were not even calcium buffered...the bevels were yellow and dirty looking....eeeekkkkk
True the tape may be acid free but the manner in they used it was strange...I have always been trained to use t-hinge, not just tape the corners at an angle......plus I was trained to just use conservation corners and mount it to the backing board when I was framing an original peice of art.

Janet---I called her at work and broke the news to her...she was pissed! Not that she had to spend money to fix it, she was mad because they told her it was acid free. I told her that I could put a rag cotten liner between the art and the matboards. But even then the bevels would still be yellow. And because she is a buisy woman I offered to call the framer and try to get some answers.

Jerry---wow I am shocked still! I just started my own framing buisness and I will never order paper boards. I am suprized that an artist and famos as wyland would still use it in his frame shop....wow you are telling me that other famous artisit do that? If so you are right we need standards!!

Where are the framing police??

I guess I have a lot to learn...thank you for letting me rant and I am so happy I found you guys! :D
 
Becca, I like the way you informed your customer, giving her the option of sticking w/the yucky mats and adding the liner behind them. Most customers will end up asking you what you would do and then following your advice. Sounds as though you have a customer that's gonna be happy bringing all her future framing needs to you.
 
Welcome, Becca. Good opening post, but don't be so shy...
Let it all hang out.

A couple of observations --

In my limited experience, the world's worst framers are artists. My theory is that their 'thing' is to create the art. And when it's done, they move on to the next project, with little, if any, concern about how long their creations last. But they care plenty about their profits.

Have you ever heard of an art school that teaches material compatibility or preservation practices to their students? I haven't.

The second worst framers are in the back rooms of 'upscale galleries' that sell those high-demand artworks. Profit, not longevity, is the motive. So, they want pretty framing with speed; nice exterior parts, and the cheapest possible interior materials.

"Acid free" may be the most abused term in framing. The cheapest matboards we can buy are called acid free. It's a misnomer -- they never were truly acid free, but are acid-neutralized for some time by a high alkaline buffer. So, the Wyland gallery is rightfully confident that the mats they buy are "acid free". The problem is, as Ron pointed out, they aren't lignin free. lignins are resins that hold the tree together, and they are the main source of acid in the board. Boards that are lignin free are made of only "high alphacellulose"; pulp that has had all of its lignins processed out. All of the major matboard makers can give you more details about their boards' content.

Complaints from a few framers will probably be considered not worthy of the Gallery's attention. Now, if you can get 1,000 or so of their potential customers to walk away from the art specifically because it's poorly framed, then you'd have some clout. You'd also have the undying admiration of several thousand of us ordinary framers.

One more point: Be careful about denegrating lousy framing by others, even when it's deplorable. Remember that the customer was impressed enough to buy that 'lasting treasure', and may not be quick to agree that it's junk. My suggestion is to recommend protective features that "go beyond the commercial interests" of the gallery. And educate customers so that they can distinguish good from bad on their own.
 
Becca, sorry to beat this dead horse some more, but he's still kickin'.

Pretty much ALL mats made in the past decade are "acid-free" and buffered. The good stuff is also lignin-free. The acid-free and buffered boards will still yellow because they become acidic with age. The lignin-free boards (rag, AlphaMats, etc) will not.

This is why we avoid using the term "acid-free." It has become meaningless in our industry.

The original framer may have done the wrong thing, but wasn't lying in the strictest sense.

I just took a look at a roll of Framer's Tape II. The label says "Archival Grade Adhesive." (Archival is another word that's become meaningless.) It's a very handy material to have around, but you and I both know we wouldn't use it for hinging fine art.

This is the point of standards. To develop some common methods and terminology to replace "museum," "acid-free," "archival" and all those other catch-words that have about as much meaning today as "low-carb."
 
Sorry. I started that post and then had a bunch of customers. (How rude!)

By the time I got done takin' care of business, Jim had taken care of business.
 
JIm Miller wrote:

"Acid free" may be the most abused term in framing. The cheapest matboards we can buy are called acid free. It's a misnomer -- they never were truly acid free, but are acid-neutralized for some time by a high alkaline buffer. So, the Wyland gallery is rightfully confident that the mats they buy are "acid free".

Jim, I certainly agree. Customers have come in with a print they purchased already matted. The gold sticker behind it might say "Acid-Free" or the worse of all when a customer buys a print framed: ***Professionally Framed/Quality
"Acid-Free" Matboard(s)*** The Crescent Co. started this by putting "Acid-Free" on the back of the mat corners several years ago. I was very busy one day and instead of explaining to a customer WHY they should get the print they purchased rematted, i called Crescent, told them to explain why, and handed the phone to my customer. They were on the phone about 10 minutes... they decided to have the print rematted and framed. This is what i started doing... calling Crescent and let them explain what acid-free means.
 
This is the point of standards. To develop some common methods and terminology to replace "museum," "acid-free," "archival" and all those other catch-words that have about as much meaning today as "low-carb."

Amen, I bow down to golden words. Exactly the whole point of standards and guidlelines. (My love grows Ron, my love grows!!)

FACTS will be available to consumers as well as artists. When a framer supports FACTS they are not just doing the framing industry a service, they are doing art everywhere a service.

With the FACTS standards for materials you can call a manufacturer and ask if a particular material does meet FACTS PMMB-2000 for preservation framing and then you have a true guarantee. Rick Bergeron and his committee are working on tapes and adhesives and you will have some help there soon.

Keep asking questions, especially of artists. By the way, isn't it just about a $3 or $4 dollar difference between a regular mat board and a preservation mat board?
 
Ron ---thank you for your time....see the problem is that after persuing the issue I found out that they intentionally ordered plain "decrotive" matboard...not acid free or rag mat...they did not even go for the next step.
They simply ordered the cheapest material possible.
That alone would be fine,(if the customers were told) but the realy problem was that both the sales person and the gallery manager were traind to tell their customers they were "Acid Free". That,along with the condecending attitude I got from the framer, was the reason I am so upset about this...well actually my customer is the one who is very angry.
I am just taking a stand on principal.
I feel that if a customer is paying more than $500 for an original peice of paper art, and the gallery with the artists name on it is selling it, then the matboard that they use should be a higher quality then just plain paper matboard. It should go without saying.
If it was from another frameshop then I would not be so critical, but this was framed at Wland Gallery!
Oh yeah and check this out!...My customer insisted on getting a replacement peice because she thought of what she recieved " a damaged product" so two weeks ago they had fed ex come and pick up the litho...they were overnighting it back to the gallery.
We have yet to recieve the replacement!

Now what does that tell you?

I think it is just plain rude, it speaks poorly of their customer relations and it adds a little fuel to our fire.....I just got off the phone with her and she is not a happy camper...this should get interesting!
thanks for letting me grumble.......
Nona---that is my point , the difference in price is so minimal that when you are selling at the quantity that they are the difference is pennys to the dollar.....
I dont know I am still floored
Becca
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Thanks again for letting me vent!
 
The cheapest matboard available is acid-free. It's not good, but it is acid-free.

I don't know how else to explain it.

The Bainbridge "paper mats" are acid-free (and buffered.) The AlphaMats are acid-free, lignin-free, buffered and use the ArtCare/Zeolite technology to help protect the art from environmental pollution. The same is true of the AlphaRags.

The Crescent decorative mats are acid-free and buffered. The Crescent Select and Rag mats are acid-free, buffered lignin-free.

Do you see a pattern?

In simplest terms, there is the good stuff and the bad stuff, but even the bad stuff is acid-free - which means almost nothing in terms of conservation. The next time someone tells you that a framing product is "acid-free," your response should be "so what?"

Can somebody help me out here? I don't think Becca believes me.
 
oh I believe ya!......
I am really just complaing more about the fact that they are using the bad stuff and charging top dollar. I am talking about the kind of board that when you cut it it is brown and you can see the layers of paper. To me that is bottom of the line. They sell the art as "ready to frame" but infact if someone is buying it as an investment then they have the right to expect that the finest materials are used. Thats all. I feel like the gallery that is named after the artsist should be expected to use the good stuff.

The bar is raised when you pay top dollar :D
But thanks again for you feedback!
 
Adding calcium carbonate to lignin rich wood
pulp may keep the pH up for some time, but it
does not address the issue of the peroxides that
the lignin will produce. The peroxides will come
out at the bevel and are likely to make a brown/
orange stain on the litho that will be very difficult for a conservator to treat, since it
may return, eventually. Good quality board is
worth far more that its added expense.

Hugh
 
Becca

The bottom line is... It's all about the money.

As long as there is cheap alternative, some people are going to go that way. You, me,Ron, or FACTS is never going to change that. Just remember, one customer at a time. There really is only a 3 or 4 dollar difference. However, that may change the retail 9-12 dollars each mat. If a customers really likes triple matting....


By the way...

The new Crescent paper mat samples are called 'Regular Matboard' above the title. To the left they say 'Decorative Matboard' 'Buffered-pH Neutral'

There is no mention of 'acid free' on them. Things are changing.
 
They need to change a little more, Jerry, but I guess that's a start.

pH Neutral means about as much as acid-free. They should say "pH Neutral - for now."
 
hehehehe....I have an idea...

bad...better...best...supreme

I think i may have put too much emphasis on the term "acid Free"...I do appreciate the information on the true definition of the different kinds of mat boards.

All I know is when I order matboards...I spend a few extra bucks to get what I consider quality board.

I love the connection between "acid free" and "low carb"...point well taken!

Cheers, Becca
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Becca, one of the things you'll learn over time is that almost NONE of the "commercial fine art framing" (to coin a phrase) you come across is to the (oh, forgive me guys,) "standard" that a custom frame shop might have. Plain cheap mats - regular glass or cheap styrene - pretty finishes but cheap ugly wood - poor finishing materials and hanging hardware -- are the "standard" for many commercial outfits. All that is important is the outside and the price.

For outfits like this (I'm not speaking of only M and other BBs but some chain galleries)it's about selling the art - not the framing. It's sad, but I've seen preframed "cheap art" at Garden Ridge framed to better standards than some chain gallery stuff we've reframed.

Tony
 
Becca, Many buy into the "acid free" as you have into Wyland being such a caring artist.

Wyland is a grossly successfull commercial graphic and mural artist. And even greater self promoter. The dollar is the driving force.

Somewhere along the way he has somewhat raised conciousness about whales. But that wasn't his intent, or saving the environment.

I too admired his work and him, untill I happened upon him and his crew cleaning up after a days painting of the Long Beach Arena. They were washing out the brushes and rollers straight into the storm drain.

And if you think the framing sucked from Wyland, wait till you get to re-frame a LeRoy Neiman from Hawaii.... Now were talking acid everything.
 
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