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Hinging Problem

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by bruce papier, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    An important customer has pointed out to me the hinging on his pieces isn't turning out well. The hinges look flat right after I do them, but the hinge and the paper it is attached to swells later leaving an unsightly "pillow". The paper isn't puckered- it's evenly swollen. I wish I had a photo, but I don't.

    What am I doing wrong? The hinges seem flat and dry as I'm doing them and I take care not to put too much paste on the hinge. The paste isn't watery. I cook it until it's almost a gel.
     
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  2. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Do you do the following after the adhesive has dried off any excess moisture: 1> Attach the hinge to the art, apply a weight separated with a blotter til dry. 2> Attach the other end of the hinge to the mounting board separated with a blotter and a water barrier sheet ans covered with a weight.
     
  3. Lafontsee

    Lafontsee CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    What kind of paper is it you are mounting? I have pretty much given up on trying to use starch paste hinges on clay-coated (shiny) poster-type paper. It tends to react to moisture in a very visible way. For this type of thing, I tend to revert to Filmoplast (heresy, I know). Watercolor paper and the like seem much more friendly to starch paste hinges.

    Another trick I use on very thin paper is to apply micro-dots of paste using a small square of the hook side of velcro. Brush out a thin layer of paste on a small scrap of glass and use the velcro to pick up and apply a grid of tiny paste dots to the hinge. Since the paste is not spread over the entire area, it tends to cockle less.

    James
     
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  4. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    The items involved here are on a medium weight watercolor/printing paper. It good quality 100% cotton stuff. That's what's killing me- I've done a ton of stuff very similar with no problem (or at least not much of a problem).

    As far as the poster paper- I hear you, brother. That's the other problem I'm having- People (even artists) have fallen in love with having their artwork floated. I getting things on poster paper, card stock, paper bags, mulberry paper (sometimes very thin mulberry paper), you name it. All of it has to be flat. It's making my head hurt.

    Jerome- I'm doing that and the artwork looks good at first and goes PFFFT at some time in the indefinite future.
     
  5. dpframing

    dpframing CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    It's probably hot-pressed watercolor paper which is smooth. Those white fields in a work of art are difficult to hinge flat.
    I stopped using v-hinges, or folded hinges because they have little peel strength and they do bulge out when the work is allowed to float with gravity for a time.
    I use the same materials, but now I do sheer hinges (without a pass-thru) because they are much stronger and they lie flatter.
    And in the future, they can be cut in half like a v-hinge when unmounting a piece of art.
     
  6. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    What kind of paste are you using. If you use rice or wheat paste it sounds as if you may have too much water remaining in the paste and hinge before you apply itto the art. I use rice paste and mulberry paper and generally after applying the paste let the hinge stand for about 5 minutes (approximately) before applying it to the art. What I look for is that the paste on the hinge has a dull look, not dried out but definately not wet, if it is shiny it is still to wet to apply to the art. Once I do apply the hinge I use a blotter to press it down securely and pat it until all remaining moisture is out of the hinge. I roll the blotter over and lay it over the hinge and weight it down. I have never had a problem since I have been doing it this way, hopefully this will help, lots of luck. Joe
     
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  7. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    You are probably right Joe. I've been experimenting with the paste lately and finding there is a fine line between too wet and too dry. I'll have to keep trying until I hit the right spot.

    Again, what's baffling me is that the problem doesn't show up immediately. The hinges look O.K. at first and puff up later.
     
  8. CB Art & Framing

    CB Art & Framing SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    "Floating" is almost always a trade off between visual appeal vs. preserving art integrity.
    I think we should always advise our customers of this at the design stage.
     
  9. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    I have seen this very thing and have wondered what caused it to happen. A theory here:

    I would guess that the material you are using for hinging is too heavy and the paper now stuck to it cannot contract and expand with the rest of the sheet as it adjusts to changes in its environment. It also may be that the paste itself is creating the problem by making the hinged surface have a different permeability than the unhinged area surrounding it.

    I have been experimenting with Lascaux products for hinging to certain challenging surfaces with some success. It is a surface bond that is heat activated (130F) and is reversible with no residue. i make the hinges in advance and store them in a sealed bag made from metalized polyester. They need to cure for a week or two and be wiped with distilled water to get rid of the surfactants that weep out, then allowed to dry before using.

    Another option is to use Methyl Cellulose for hinging paste. It is being reintroduced in favor of the grain based starches, because it isn't a food, and it is much easier to work with. No cooking involved. You can make hinges in advance and let them dry, then rewet them when ready to use. You can easily control the amount of water in the hinge material this way.
     
  10. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Good theories, Wally. I'll try lighter hinges. I'll look into the Lascaux products also. What is the name of the product?
     
  11. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

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  12. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Here's another question as I examine all the elements of hinging. What weight of mulberry paper do all of you use? I know it may vary with the weight of the object being framed, but what's the range?
     
  13. dpframing

    dpframing CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    50 gsm for heavy watercolor paper- and 20 gsm for lighter pieces
     
  14. dpframing

    dpframing CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Not a hard and fast rule tho. Ialways have to remind myself that the thicker the hinge paper, the more paste it will carry
     
  15. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I keep it easy - light art - light mulberry paper, heavy art - heavier mulberry paper. If I am framing tissue paper I use a very very light hinge - look and try it out and practice, you will answer this question yourself. It is hard to explain or even to teach you by words here on TG. With practice & classes you will be able to hinge a piece of tissue paper so you cannot see the hinge from the opposite side - I can do it and there will be no moisture wrinkles or waves on the opposite side of the hinge. Practice, Practice, Practice - try different weight mulberry paper and different types of paste. I keep it natural and will not use human made paste or paper for archival framing. You will find out what works for you, don't be afraid to try different paper and paste to see what is best for your needs.
     
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  16. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

  17. Annajean

    Annajean Grumbler in Training

    Check out Hugh Phibb's article on microdot hinging. it's super cool. The technique allows you to apply much less paste in sort of a "comic book dot" pattern which really helps when hinging sensitive materials.

    http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/annual/v24/bp24-10.pdf

    Other personal preferences...
    I like to brush out my prepared paste on dry blotters before brushing it onto the hinge to suck up excess moisture.
    Unless the object is really big I attach no more than 1/8"-1/4" of hinge to it. If i hinge is going to fail i tend to thing it will be along seam, not in the attachment area.
    If i'm worried about distortion, I let my hinges dry under weight, blotter and hollytex at least overnight.
    Sensitive pieces may benefit from a sealed mat/glass/backing package.

    Hope this is helpful!
     
  18. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Today's Trivia Lesson: Those are called Ben-Day Dots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben-Day_dots
    :cool: Rick
     
  19. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Thanks for all the helpful info. There's a good chance I've been doing it wrong for years. I used 45 gram mulberry paper. The contact patch is more like 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 at all four corners. The hinges are probably too tight. Here's why I did the pieces that way- the pieces go into a kind of corporate lending library for art. I was warned the art was going to be moved frequently and stored in any variety of locations and positions, so I didn't want anything to move or break free.
     
  20. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    That sounds right. On large pieces I hinge on top every 6" or so with approximately 3/4" wide hinge and only about 1/2" at max attached to the art. At the side within 3" to 4" form the bottom I attach a hinge loosely on each side so the art won't shift to much but can still expand and contract. I also don't use just slits in the backing board, I use a 1-1/4" leather punch for the slits, this keeps the hinges loose enough to move as necessary but not so tight that they rip at the slit. I learned the trick about the leather punch from Paul MacFarland, instructor at the WCAF, a few years ago - works great.
     
  21. Dana Zikas

    Dana Zikas Grumbler in Training

    Please expand on the leather punch comment. I really dont understand.
     
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  22. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    This picture is just an example of a slotting punch. You use the punch to create a hole in the mounting board so that the hinge can be "passed through" to the other side of the board where it adheres to the back.

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    IMG_0350.JPG IMG_0351.JPG IMG_0352.JPG What Jerome Feig said. I like the C.S. Osborne punches because you can actually sharpen them a bit.
     
  24. Fsimard

    Fsimard Grumbler

    Very interesting experiments!

    As a heat activated hinge, I did some successful hinging on water reactive pieces using strips of Buffermount and a low heat tacking iron. The media and support needs to be resistant to heat.
    The bond is surprisingly strong and is completely reversible.
    The hinge is also absolutely invisible when looking on the surface of the piece to be hinged. Even with very thin papers.

    This has been done only as a test, as I don’t know the long term reaction of the Buffermount adhesive in a hinging context.. even if it’s purpose is to bond materials in an archival way.
    We still use starch and Japanese paper for most art that we hinge at the shop.

    I like your Methyl cellulose hinges that are made in advance... it’s like the Hayaku...when they made them using a good adhesive...
    I will try to make some!
     
  25. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

  26. Dana Zikas

    Dana Zikas Grumbler in Training

    Thank Guys. I get it now. For pass through hinging, I've always cut beveled slits with a matcutter. I believe I got that from Hugh or maybe it was Jim Miller, at a conference class. The hinge feeding through like an "S" without the pressure from a straight slits/slots harder/sharper edges. Is this method not appropriate any longer?
     
  27. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Dana, that essentially is the method I use; but, with a 90° cut with a blade. I then "polish" and "modify" the cut with a SS dental cement spatula to smooth the edges.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  28. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Any method of making a suitable slot is acceptable. The leather punches simply allow you to make a larger slot, and do it more neatly.
     
  29. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    When I tried a leather punch after Paul suggested them at a workshop, it was almost impossible to use. An observant hubby suggested that the trouble was likely a result of 1) buying a cheap, dull ounch and 2) my tiny lady arms. I even used a hammer, and it didn't go through. He was able to do it, with some might man-handling of the hammer. Maybe I'll try getting Joe's version, and JFeig's spatula. This thread has me thinking. In the past, I'd mount the mat to foam core, then cut slots all the way through both, which was a royal pain. Sounds like you guys might just cut slits in the mat and hinge through that, then attach it to the substrate. I always stuck the heck out of the mat and substrate (to each other). If you hinge, then attach, do you use little glue, so they can easily be separated later? How would that work on a big heavy piece, as one wouldn't want the mat to warp where it's not stuck down?
     
  30. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    When I do pass-through hinges, I cut slots with a utility knife, and then expand and taper them somewhat using a palette knife I've had for many years which has a blade that is ground so that it gently tapers in thickness. Don't know if these are made anymore, but it is a wonderful tool. Brand is Russell Green River.
    :cool: Rick

    knife.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  31. Finest Fabric

    Finest Fabric MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Surprised BEVA film hasn't been mentioned anywhere yet. Choose your application wisely but it is a great adhesive for hinges, strip linings, re-lining, &c. for the above reasons....
     
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  32. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I figured I should give you an update since I started this thread. I think I've solved the problem by loosening the hinges a bit , but more than that, I changed the kind of paper I use. I started using senka-shi paper from Hiromi Paper. I got all the weights available (22, 42, and 50 grams), but have only had to use the lighter weights so far. It's really strong stuff. Being able to use thinner paper has been the solution (I hope).
     
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  33. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    It's helpful to see what weights you mentioned. A couple of years ago, a workshop instructor told the group that Hiromi had a sample pack made up, and all we had to do was call and ask. When I called and tried to order one, they had no clue what I was talking about, so I got boggled by options and lost momentum. Maybe I'll start with what you bought.
     
  34. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    Just re-read this thread as a refresher. Will add a note while here. Another possible cause of hinges pillowing can be improper orientation. Hinges need to be hung in the direction of the longest fibers in the paper, and if hung the other way, pillowing can result.
     
  35. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    That's a good tip, but the hinges have to go at the top and maybe the bottom (I think). So, I can't always make sure the grain orientation is right.
     
  36. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Actually it's the grain direction of the hinging paper that Shayla was referring to.
    :cool: Rick
     
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  37. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Got it. I withdraw my objection.
     
  38. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    I wonder if the orientation of the paper grain on the cross hinges also makes a difference. I'm careful to make sure that the pendant parts of hinges hang with the grain, but my cross hinge part runs perpendicular to that. Since I've always done a weird thing of putting a dab of paste on the top inside back tab of the pendant hinge before pasting down the cross-hinge, that likely renders the question moot. (Although it sounds like most folks don't put any paste there). The thought occurs that perhaps some framers tear their cross-hinges from much wider strips, making sure the grain of those is in line with that of the pendant part. If so, am guessing it's a rare breed, but perhaps they have better results?
     
  39. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I don't think it makes any difference for the cross piece.
    :cool: Rick
     
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