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homebased business owners final take.

ianp

True Grumbler
wow, i wonder what would have happened if i hadnt mentioned my price structure. thank you for all the advice. I believe i will slowly increase my pricing to reflect local storefront pricing. i did start this to make money, and i take great pride in my framing and customer relations. you guys are very passionate about what you do or you wouldnt be so touchy about pricing. the reasons i started as home based was anyone opening a new venture in this economy is either very confident or has a screw loose!. the other reason is health issues that make working by appointment ideal, as well as customers getting an uninterupted design experience. i guess i need to be patient, continue producing excellent framing, never stop learning and growing, and try new things in marketing. if i offended anyone it was not my intention. sincerely Ian Phillips.
 
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Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
I would be more inclined to read your posts if you would properly capitalize and use spacing and paragraphs. :)
 

Kirstie

PFG, Picture Framing God
I would be more inclined to read your posts if you would properly capitalize and use spacing and paragraphs. :)
And I would be more inclined to give advice if I knew where you were located and who you are. Please fill out your profile.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
...I believe i will slowly increase my pricing to reflect local storefront pricing. ...you guys are very passionate about what you do or you wouldnt be so touchy about pricing.
OK, maybe some storefront framers are touchy about pricing, but that's beside the point. Ignore what the storefront framers say about pricing, and observe your market. Regardles of "storefront pricing", I say your prices should reflect the market in which you operate. That is, sell every frame for the highest price that your work deserves. If you are producing framing of equal quality and charging 15% less, then you are leaving profit dollars on the table. Why do that?

Of course you may price your work any way you like, but if you want to operate professionally, you should be selling your framing for the highest prices that are competitive in the market. Use your added profit to earn more business against your storefront-advantaged competitors through more and better marketing and advertising. Also, learn how to become a better, more profitable framer by studying books and articles on business operations and framing technology, networking with other framers at PPFA chapter meetings, and attending classes at trade shows.
 

John Ranes II CPF GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Another observation....

Rob Markoff said:
I would be more inclined to read your posts if you would properly capitalize and use spacing and paragraphs. :)


Kirstie said:
And I would be more inclined to give advice if I knew where you were located and who you are. Please fill out your profile.
Ian,

Rob and Kirstie are both in my age group and so you'll find that we tend to equate Punctuation, Formality, Tradition with Professionalism. Sorry...comes with the territory. :)

John
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Get your hands on some POS programs and use them to help get an idea about pricing.

I used to use spreadsheets and hand written order froms, but the computer keeps track of the orders for you. And (repeating myself here) when the customer comes in and says can you "do it like the last one" you have access to that order instantly. No digging through boxes, not looking in the wrong box, because the order wasn't last month it was 2 years ago....

You are using a computer to ask us questions about your business, why not use your computer to answer those questions :)
 

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God

ianp

True Grumbler
thanks dad

OK, maybe some storefront framers are touchy about pricing, but that's beside the point. Ignore what the storefront framers say about pricing, and observe your market. Regardles of "storefront pricing", I say your prices should reflect the market in which you operate. That is, sell every frame for the highest price that your work deserves. If you are producing framing of equal quality and charging 15% less, then you are leaving profit dollars on the table. Why do that?

Of course you may price your work any way you like, but if you want to operate professionally, you should be selling your framing for the highest prices that are competitive in the market. Use your added profit to earn more business against your storefront-advantaged competitors through more and better marketing and advertising. Also, learn how to become a better, more profitable framer by studying books and articles on business operations and framing technology, networking with other framers at PPFA chapter meetings, and attending classes at trade shows.
Do you talk down to everyone who posts a simple question, or am i just the lucky recipient? I guess with 11,000 plus posts you are very opinionated. You said some very sound things, but advice from me, tone down the arrogance about 6 notches. In my experience PPFA meetings are great if you like potluck dinners, the same 7 people, and gossip, the food and company were good however. I was just wondering, since the home based people are not profesional, and choose not to make a landlord silent partners in their businesses, would you prefer if we opened up a store 2 miles from you in the mall? you know 900 square feet of production shop, complimenting upper floor design studio seems adequate to me. And do you speak for the entire grumble members? you sure come across that way. Do you dissect everyone who asks a simple question and compare them to Michael's. It can't be an Ohio thing because I have several friend from canton, and one here in seattle from toledo who has one of the top stores in the Seattle area.
I wonder where your disdain for small home based framers comes from, we can't be a threat to you. And about 10% lower pricing, if I lost a customer over 10%, I am doing something wrong. I am not someone to engage in banter like this, but I came with heart and hat in hand looking for help and was spat on from 4 or 5 of you. I am new in the retail side of this industry and I love every part of it. I would hope in the future members such as yourself would take the newbies under their wing. Perhaps i should try PPFA again. As far as my original question which was simply for marketing ideas, the landscape of modern advertising changes dailly, that's why i came here.You should be a little more accomadating to the newbies so we can all stand up to the Michael's of the world, and beat them with, quality and service. The End.
 

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Do you talk down to everyone who posts a simple question, or am i just the lucky recipient? I guess with 11,000 plus posts you are very opinionated. You said some very sound things, but advice from me, tone down the arrogance about 6 notches. In my experience PPFA meetings are great if you like potluck dinners, the same 7 people, and gossip, the food and company were good however. I was just wondering, since the home based people are not profesional, and choose not to make a landlord silent partners in their businesses, would you prefer if we opened up a store 2 miles from you in the mall? you know 900 square feet of production shop, complimenting upper floor design studio seems adequate to me. And do you speak for the entire grumble members? you sure come across that way. Do you dissect everyone who asks a simple question and compare them to Michael's. It can't be an Ohio thing because I have several friend from canton, and one here in seattle from toledo who has one of the top stores in the Seattle area.
I wonder where your disdain for small home based framers comes from, we can't be a threat to you. And about 10% lower pricing, if I lost a customer over 10%, I am doing something wrong. I am not someone to engage in banter like this, but I came with heart and hat in hand looking for help and was spat on from 4 or 5 of you. I am new in the retail side of this industry and I love every part of it. I would hope in the future members such as yourself would take the newbies under their wing. Perhaps i should try PPFA again. As far as my original question which was simply for marketing ideas, the landscape of modern advertising changes dailly, that's why i came here.You should be a little more accomadating to the newbies so we can all stand up to the Michael's of the world, and beat them with, quality and service. The End.

Whoa- back off boogaloo-

Ian - you simply do not know who you are talking to or with.

There are some of the brightest, most experienced and best picture framers in the US on this board and I daresay in your short history here, you have managed to alienate more than one....present company included.

Ironically, those who are the most experienced (and best educated) are the absolute least threatened by home based framers - and have offered you some great advise..........

If you think Jim Miller is "talking down to you" you have a serious problem. Don't make us get all "Montgomery on you".
 

John Ranes II CPF GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Really....

ianp said:
Do you talk down to everyone who posts a simple question...

...I wonder where your disdain for small home based framers comes from...
Ian,

I'll be the first to say that Jim Miller and I do not agree on lots of topics, but in your posting where you quote him above, I see nothing in his tone that is talking down to anyone. He is simply sharing solid advice on a pricing philosophy that you might take regardless if you were home based or storefront.

I see nothing in his posting that you quoted that indicates any disdain towards HB framers.

I honestly think that you might be a bit sensitive on the subject.

Sincerely,

John
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
As far as my original question which was simply for marketing ideas, the landscape of modern advertising changes dailly, that's why i came here.You should be a little more accomadating to the newbies so we can all stand up to the Michael's of the world, and beat them with, quality and service. The End.
ianp, please don't judge this site based on a few badly chosen words. I don't believe that Jim gave you any advise that should have made you feel put down. I'm sure that it was not his intention. A lot of framers come here for advice from Jim as well as other who are in the know. This is an excellent place to get information on any framing problem, or if you just need help to find something. Sometimes those of us who people depend on for information forget that we were once a newbie ourselves. I'm really sorry you felt like you were being put down. We could all use a little reminder that without other framers to keep the moulding companies, distrubutors, mat borad companies, ect. in business we would all be out of business. 100 framers does not an industry make...10,000, now you're getting there but we can always use more. Welcome to the industry and I hope you really do well.

If I can ever be of help to you, please don't hesitate to call. I'm generally the one who answers the phone.
 

osgood

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
There's only one word I can think of -
'unfreakingbelievable'!
 

pwalters

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
 

janetj1968

PFG, Picture Framing God
Ian, I've been in the industry for 25 years. I started out working with a wholesaler and did that for 12 years. Then I worked for a gallery. I opened my first shop in 2003 that was home based. I opened my next shop in 2005 that had a store front. Due to family health, I moved it home last year. So here I am, home based again.

As info, my pricing structure has never been any different. My overhead hasn't changed much. What needed to change was my schedule.

But I've been on the Grumble since 2007. My friends here have taken this ride with me. They don't care where I'm located. No one looks down on me. No one has ever accused me of not being professional. We all ask for input on pricing from each other. We offer each other a ton of advice and knowledge.

I haven't read the other thread, only this one. But it sure did go downhill fast, considering the fact that it started off as an apology. But your observation couldn't be any further from the truth. People don't really care if you're home based. We care where your moral compass points and how you treat other people both in public and in business. We care about the quality of work you pass along to customers because it affects our industry as a whole.

We don't really talk to each other that way. So we're all a little bit surprised. I hope maybe you're just having an off day.

And maybe you needed to hear that from someone else home based.

Also...every now and again...shoppers find us on the Grumble and become customers based on what they find. One found Kirstie just a few weeks ago.

Keeping all of your posts in a public place positive may help you more than you can imagine. It becomes part of your business image.

And also as a result..if you have any incorrect info on there...they might be looking for you in Seattle based on your profile.... rather than Port Orchard, for example.
 

MabSadie2

PFG, Picture Framing God
You have a teacher's heart, Jim Miller. There ain't a thing wrong with that.
 

nikfrz

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Wow, I sure think you took Jim's comments in a far different manner than he intended and wrote them. I think he was full of good and kind advice. I would read it again if I were you.
I agree.
 

osgood

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I often wonder why some people, Jim included, bother to come here to freely give us the benefit of their knowledge?
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Jim Miller bends over backwards to be helpful and to make sure even the simplest post is clear and most importantly, as accurate as he can make it. Sometimes, I suppose, this clarity could come across in print as a bit arrogant.

The truth is, he is one of the most generous framers I have ever met. He shares knowledge freely with anyone who shows an interest, regardless of their level of education or experience.

I don't always agree with him, but you can be sure his information is based on solid science and experience. In fact, when I read his post I was impressed with how generous he was with someone posting anonymously. And as one of the top framers and educators in the country, he could be forgiven for being a bit arrogant, even if he was. You seem to be confusing "definite" with "arrogant."

After reading ianp's comments, the old English teacher in me couldn't resist parsing Jim's post grammatically. Sorry, there is nothing in there that is the least bit condescending. It is accurate and important information for someone entering the business, whatever the level.

I'll add my 2 cents. I am still amazed after nearly 2 decades in this business just how much of my time and energy is spent on business, and how little on framing. If you aren't willing to focus on the business end, you will not succeed. You may be one of the top framers in the world, but if you aren't employed by someone else or concentrating on business, you can't succeed.

And, oh yeah, it is important to learn to speak the language when you are asking professionals for help. This includes writing clearly, including proper punctuation if you wish to be understood and taken seriously.

This is a hard business, and we need all the friends we can get.
 

Dave

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Ohhhmmmm, Ohhmm....

Too many volts here.

Too much wattage too, Boo Boo.

Hugh Phibbs byline says something about "the wise listens"...
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
Ian, your rant is valid, sounds much the same as myself when I joined this board years ago. I have taken the liberty of presenting it two ways. As originally posted, then broken up into small paragraphs. Well sorta paragraphs.

Which format is easier to read?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you talk down to everyone who posts a simple question, or am i just the lucky recipient? I guess with 11,000 plus posts you are very opinionated. You said some very sound things, but advice from me, tone down the arrogance about 6 notches. In my experience PPFA meetings are great if you like potluck dinners, the same 7 people, and gossip, the food and company were good however. I was just wondering, since the home based people are not profesional, and choose not to make a landlord silent partners in their businesses, would you prefer if we opened up a store 2 miles from you in the mall? you know 900 square feet of production shop, complimenting upper floor design studio seems adequate to me. And do you speak for the entire grumble members? you sure come across that way. Do you dissect everyone who asks a simple question and compare them to Michael's. It can't be an Ohio thing because I have several friend from canton, and one here in seattle from toledo who has one of the top stores in the Seattle area.
I wonder where your disdain for small home based framers comes from, we can't be a threat to you. And about 10% lower pricing, if I lost a customer over 10%, I am doing something wrong. I am not someone to engage in banter like this, but I came with heart and hat in hand looking for help and was spat on from 4 or 5 of you. I am new in the retail side of this industry and I love every part of it. I would hope in the future members such as yourself would take the newbies under their wing. Perhaps i should try PPFA again. As far as my original question which was simply for marketing ideas, the landscape of modern advertising changes dailly, that's why i came here.You should be a little more accomadating to the newbies so we can all stand up to the Michael's of the world, and beat them with, quality and service. The End


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Do you talk down to everyone who posts a simple question, or am i just the lucky recipient? I guess with 11,000 plus posts you are very opinionated.

You said some very sound things, but advice from me, tone down the arrogance about 6 notches. In my experience PPFA meetings are great if you like potluck dinners, the same 7 people, and gossip, the food and company were good however.

I was just wondering, since the home based people are not profesional, and choose not to make a landlord silent partners in their businesses, would you prefer if we opened up a store 2 miles from you in the mall? you know 900 square feet of production shop, complimenting upper floor design studio seems adequate to me. And do you speak for the entire grumble members? you sure come across that way.

Do you dissect everyone who asks a simple question and compare them to Michael's. It can't be an Ohio thing because I have several friend from canton, and one here in seattle from toledo who has one of the top stores in the Seattle area.

I wonder where your disdain for small home based framers comes from, we can't be a threat to you. And about 10% lower pricing, if I lost a customer over 10%, I am doing something wrong. I am not someone to engage in banter like this, but I came with heart and hat in hand looking for help and was spat on from 4 or 5 of you.

I am new in the retail side of this industry and I love every part of it. I would hope in the future members such as yourself would take the newbies under their wing. Perhaps i should try PPFA again. As far as my original question which was simply for marketing ideas, the landscape of modern advertising changes dailly, that's why i came here.

You should be a little more accomadating to the newbies so we can all stand up to the Michael's of the world, and beat them with, quality and service.

The End.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I think, once the dust has settled, you will find most of the people on this board will want nothing more than to see your business succeed and thrive.

Most of us also think that what you have to say is an important contribution to this forum, so we want to be able to read and follow your thoughts as easily and quickly as we can, since our time, and speaking for myself, attention span, is limited.

Best,

John
 

Pat Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
It's the right of passage.

Ian, When you are first starting out it can be a bit overwhelming because you suddenly realize how much you don't know. I would bet that there isn't a framer out there who didn't feel that way at first. There is a lot to learn, but this web site can make it much easier for you if you allow it to.

If you want some interesting and not so flattering reading go back to 2003 when I first joined the G and see for yourself that you aren't the only one who has gotten a few bruises along the way. I know Jim did not mean to make you feel put down. My first 6 months here I got blasted big time by some of the very people who now use my methods and recommend them to other framers. Jim was one of the first to come on board. We all have to prove ourselves everyday and in doing so we get better. I started framing almost 20 years ago and I'm still learning everyday.

No one wants to see you fail, nor do they want to give you bad advise. To answer your original question, my advice to you is to find your niche, don't try to compete with the BB's, charge a fair price/what you need to in order to make a living, and do great work. Church Bulletins and local, shopper type news papers are good places to advertise when you are first starting out. Just about everyone who gets into the business has an interesting story to tell about why and how they came to be in the framing business. You might want to call your local news paper and ask them to do a story on you and your new company.

Have a business card ready to give to any potential new customer. Let the businesses or manufactures in your area know that you are ready to help them with their framing needs. It won't matter where you are, because your customers will come back and send others to you if take good care of them. Word of mouth is still the best advertising out there. It can also be your downfall if you are not doing great work. And, get educated so you can one day come here and give good advice to another newbie. PPFA and the WCAF show are still the two best places to learn the trade.
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Hey everyone, I think we need to remember that we put Ian on the defensive. In his very first post his very first comment was a sarcastic one that only the poster knew was sarcastic.

Jim and I have our problems, but I know Jim is the first one to offer his help. Ian Jim may be opinionated but he is reasonable :) Don't read his posts with the jaundiced eyes of someone that has been treated unfairly here. Save my posts for that treatment :)
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
Ian, I have to correct myself, your rant about Jim Miller is not all that valid. Most of us on this board like Jim, he knows lots of stuff and shares a lot of it with us. Try to be nice to Jim, he really is a good guy.

John
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Ian I reread your post, and Jim's.

reread his post, it has very good info in it. Read it like he was talking to you, and answering your question. Not like he is lecturing you which is how I think you read it.

He wasn't lecturing, he was probably the only one so far who has answered your question. Watch your customers and price accordingly is what he said. Price as high as is acceptable does not mean over price it means don't leave money on the table. We all leave money on the table, even us over priced store fronts :)
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
This is almost funny. Friends, I really appreciate all the support, but I can't help thinking Ian has me confused with someone else.

Ian, you might want to re-read the posts in your other two threads, and check the names. I've said nothing against you.
...since the home based people are not profesional...would you prefer if we opened up a store 2 miles from you in the mall?
I have never said home-based framers are unprofessional, and it does not matter where you choose to locate your business. Some of my best framing friends are home-based.

My storefront's ten-year lease will expire next spring, and I am considering taking this 23-year-old business home. I can probably take most of my customers with me (got a long mailing list in the POS) and there's plenty of room in my basement and 3-car garage. So, if you really do want a storefront in my neighborhood, you can have mine.

...you know 900 square feet of production shop, complimenting upper floor design studio seems adequate to me...
That seems adequate to me, too. My shop's work area is about that size, but I know a couple of framers who do beautiful work in 500 square feet of space with one table.

... Do you dissect everyone who asks a simple question and compare them to Michael's...
Huh? I probably wouldn't compare any small independent framer to Michaels, whether storefront or home-based. The mass-market framers are completely different from our segment of the industry in every regard.

...I wonder where your disdain for small home based framers comes from, we can't be a threat to you...
This has to be a case of mistaken identity. I have said nothing that could be taken as disdain or disrespect for home-based framers. Again, some of my best framing friends are home-based.

And for what it's worth, I do not consider any framer to be a threat to me.

And I don't care about your punctuation or paragraphical prowess.

Good luck.
 

pwalters

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
And for what it's worth, I do not consider any framer to be a threat to me.
Darn it Jim. Are you trying to insult me too! Man the gall! :beer: JK.
 

MerpsMom

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
Really is surprising. I think Jim's correct: Ian has him confused with someone else. Jim has never denigrated HB framers in any post that I can remember and I've been a Grumbler and HB for as long as this format's been in existence.

Ian's persona rather did a 180. :)

MM
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Whaever Ian meant or didn't mean believe me nearly no one on this board is a master of reading comprehension, myself included. Sometimes it's quite frustrating. There are some of you where I think when you read a thread the screen never even stops scrolling until you get to the end.
 

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Store Front pricing doesn’t mean anything except an opportunity for the Bigbox and online framers to eat you for lunch. You have to figure out where you need to be in your market (the market). Less sees no advantage to being a home-based business unless you NEED to stay home, or can’t afford to join the dwindling Store Front’s left.
Just stay higher priced than Less. Don’t get Less wrong, Less is not cheap, unless Less needs to be.
 

Tex

True Grumbler
United Inches

Good information across the board.

I, too, a homebased framer, am a little confused on when and where the "united inches" approach is to be applied in the pricing of framing a print.

Is there a rule of thumb? Thanks.:kaffeetrinker_2:

I just finished reading the entire thread and I'm somewhat confused on the animosity towards Jim.
I did not read into his posting any talking-down to a lesser person. Jim reminds me of my Pop who was straightforward and to the point, which, can sometimes seem impersonal. So, raise your skirt and grow some balls.
Furthermore, I an infrequent user of the Grumble over the last 2 years, and have found everyone quite helpful to all of my questions. Be patient and have fun with the site.
 
Last edited:

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
United inches is the old world way of measuring everything. This is the method many of the supplier's suggested retail pricing is figured.
 

Tex

True Grumbler
Old world way

United inches is the old world way of measuring everything. This is the method many of the supplier's suggested retail pricing is figured.
Thanks, I did not know this. So, in a nutshell, leave out united inches in pricing, and just go with a minimum of 2 - 2.5 x wholesale?

Fact is, I do struggle somewhat trying to figure out a consistant strategy for pricing. :icon11:
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
You can't just mark up based on a simple formula since you will take a beating on small items. You should have a fixed charge for cutting and joining frames plus material at a multiplier. I use $8 for the cutting and joining of frames on top of my marked up material.

Same thing with mats. Most use a fixed price of the cost of the matbaord and then a multiplier for the portion of board used. You buy glass by the lite so you should charge for the entire piece you are cutting from. You will make adjustments for long narrow artwork.
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
 

homeaccents

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Thanks, I did not know this. So, in a nutshell, leave out united inches in pricing, and just go with a minimum of 2 - 2.5 x wholesale?

Fact is, I do struggle somewhat trying to figure out a consistant strategy for pricing. :icon11:
While we are one of the few shops that I know of, that does not use the UI method of pricing on our mouldings, we still take it into consideration when setting the per ft prices on particularly wide mouldings. Just something to think about, because your supplier is going to charge you by the UI.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
United inches don't tell you how much moulding will be used. It is simply half of what the interior of the frame will use. The charts then double it and you have to know the width to calculate actual usage.
 

homeaccents

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
United inches don't tell you how much moulding will be used. It is simply half of what the interior of the frame will use. The charts then double it and you have to know the width to calculate actual usage.
True to that. I just meant that if he is simply charging by the actual interior foot as we do, that he might want to take into consideration the IU charts that the suppliers all use for his wider mouldings because that is how he will be charged. So if he is comfortable with a 2x markup on a 1" moulding, he may want to bump that mark up for say a 3" or 4" inch moulding.

Sorry I was not clear.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So if he is comfortable with a 2x markup on a 1" moulding, he may want to bump that mark up for say a 3" or 4" inch moulding.
Loosely translated, Johnny's last three cryptic posts probably indicate he believes you should be using more than a 2x markup on a 1" moulding.

Personally, I think you should price your framing any way you want, with emphasis on the suggestion that you might want your prices to reflect your local framing market. Then take your extra profit and spend it on marketing and advertising to drive more customers to your business, since home-based framers do not share the obvious advantage of storefront exposure.

So, I tend to agree with what I surmise is Johnny's insuinuation, since the industry average markup probably is more like 4x at the low end of the cost scale, or maybe more. A 2x markup would be appropriate for higher-cost mouldings, say $10 or more per foot.

But again, I'm not trying to tell you how to price your stuff, just saying what I believe is typical among framers. :thumbsup:
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Johnny's drinkin' now.

United inch charts from suppliers show how much moulding will be used with each width of moulding. A 16x20 uses 6' 8" of moulding minimum. You are charging for 7' of moulding on a 1" profile since that is how much will be consumed. The same frame from a 3" moulding uses 8' of moulding. A 6" wide moulding uses 10'.

Most double miter saws have a 1" gap between the outside of the blades. Cutting yourself you must account for another 4" of moulding. When I cut a 4" wide 16x20 I charge for the entire 9' of moulding which is made up of the 6' rabbet dimension plus the 32 inches of waste for the mitered portion (width times 8) and the additional 4" being eaten between the blades.

If you don't charge for all of the moulding used in a frame you will go out of business or just give a ton of money away. If I weren't charging for the 36" of waste in my example I would being giving away tens of thousands of feet of moulding every year. These little details need to be worked out on day one of business.
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
These little details need to be worked out on day one of business.
Yes to Jim but YES to Jeff. About needing to know these things before you ever start, not about drinking. If they were in storefronts they would be toast.

I also hate discussing markups on an open forum.
 

GUMBY GCF

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Yes to Jim but YES to Jeff. About needing to know these things before you ever start, not about drinking. If they were in storefronts they would be toast.

I also hate discussing markups on an open forum.

Johnny you might have a point there..

Here are my costs, markups and price formulation!~
This formula has worked for 36 and half years.
It will allow you to make a profit and keep you in spending money.

It has three parts

One if you are homebased.

Two if you are brick and motar.

Three if you are a artist, hobbyist who frames for themselves or freinds and nieghboors.

It allows for some waste and spoilage.
It allows for some profit when the price of moulding goes up in price or the supplier adds a sudden surcharge.
It figures how to not leave any money on the table but not glean the field.
It will also show you how to build and maintain a volume of 200+ frames a week.




Part 1 ..--..--..--.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.---=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&-----.-...-&---.-.-..--.-..--.--..-&.--.-.-.--.----&---&-.....---.-..-.-.-.-.---.-.-.-...-.----.-.-..=.-.-..-..=.=.-.-.-.=.-=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.-.---..=-.-..-!~
Part 2 .-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.-..--.-..--.--..-&.--.-.-.--.----&---&-.....---.-..-.-.-.-.---.-.-.-...-.----.-.-..=.-.-..-..=.=.-.-.-.=.-=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.!~
Part 3 --.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-----.-...-&---.-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.-.---..=-.-..--.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.-..--.-..--.--..-&.--.-.-.--.-----&---&-.....---.-..-.-.-.-.---.-.-.-...-.----.-.-..=.-.-..-..=.=.-.-.-.=.-=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-..--.--..-&.--.-.-.--.----&---&-.....---.-..-.-.-.-.---.-.-.-...-.----.-.-..=.-.-..-..=.=.-.-.-.=.-=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.-.-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---=-..-.=...--.-.-.-.-.=.-.-.-.-..-=.--.---.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-.--.----.-.-.-.-.&-.--.-.-..-.-----....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---.-.---....-.-.-&.-.-.-.-.-----.-...-&---!~


I share this out of public interest with all framing professionals.
So after reading it please do not share it with any of my or your customers or any other potential future customer. You may not even want to even share this with someone elses customer/competition.

But then again you might!~

Therefore I have used the Professional Picture Frames Assoc. & The Fine Artist Guild secret 250gig de-encryptor code.
 

Mike Labbe

Member, Former moderator team volunteer
Just a reminder

We really shouldn't be discussing wholesale prices or markup multipliers, because they give the wrong impression to the public. (no, public, we dont have yachts!) The public and search engines can see our forum, which is how we are discovered by new framers.

Keep in mind that one persons ?X markup isn't the same as someone elses. Some people mark up from Join, Chop, Length, Wedge, Bundle, Box, or Container costs. Our costs vary GREATLY, and shipping can be a big factor too. (a box of moulding or closed corner frame can cost about $100 in freight/handling from some carriers in USA) Some people include the labor in their markup, too.

It's complicated and probably best not to set your prices based on someones advice on a forum, without knowing the big picture. It really depends on what the local market will bear, and your individual expenses.

To further complicate things, my local market marks up based on (full) CHOP cost, even though we rarely buy in this (pricy) manner. When comparing against my competitors, this is something I have to keep in mind as not to leave money on the table.

Once the rules are plugged into the software, it pretty much becomes automatic. Price changes from the vendors come in daily, and use the same rules. It's still a system that requires periodic review. Labor and glazing prices do not automatically adjust, just mat, moulding, and fabric. If you get a POS, I also suggest not using the "default" prices. Those are a USA average price, but not one necessarily appropriate for your market and expenses.

Most of us use graduated markup scales for moulding, based on the wholesale cost per linear foot (including waste). The lower priced ones might have a higher markup, to cover the labor, etc. (with highest price having a lower markup) This is a controversial topic, for some, and many will disagree with that. Mats are priced in much the same way, based on square inches or UI sold. (what is left becomes stock) Glazing is often priced by SF, UI, or by the lite it will be cut from(this is how we do it in our shop). Then you have openings, stretching, joining, backing/mounting, fabrics, stretcher bars, spacers, tax, and other misc fees.

Things have changed in the past 20 years, since computers. Back then, everything was hand written and the customer was given a copy of the paperwork that showed all the mat and moulding numbers. Back then, many shops wrote retail prices on the back of their moulding samples, and updated them every time the prices changed. Some shops would put things into "Mat and Moulding Classes" grouping many items into lump categories and pricing them the same. (and putting the code on the sample, instead of a price) example a letter "G" moulding have a retail from $10-$15 per foot, but will all be sold at the same $12.50. Today we put item #s or barcodes on the samples, and the computer gets today's market price from the vendor (and runs it through our multiplier to determine retail per foot) Back in the early 90s when Lotus came out, many early adopting shops used computer spreadsheets to assist with their pricing, with a hybrid between the old and newest methods. Some still use this method today.

Another interesting thing I have seen is that most of us measure from the ART OUT, when pricing a job. Some of Canada, and an area in the midwest measures from the FRAME IN, toward's the art. A couple midwest framers showed me this at a trade show, and it was very interesting.

These are my opinions only and others may have a different way for all of the above :)
Mike
 
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