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Hourly Pay - What you pay or get paid?

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Kallen, Oct 5, 2007.

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  1. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    I've worked as a picture framer for 11 years. I get $21 an hour.

    Would anyone here be willing to share what they pay per hour, or get paid?

    I guess a survey of sorts.
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  2. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    Holy cow! $21/hour? I own my own shop..been framing for 25+ years....I don't make $21 an hour!

    Can I come work where you do?

    Please, tell us more about you...where (geographically speaking) are you? What can you do?
  3. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    I'd rather not say what city, other than I'm on the West Coast. - In Canada.

    Not sure what you mean by, "What can you do?" But I work in a shop that is high volume and "high-end" type work.

    I'm curious, just to see what other places pay. I'm always looking for other places to apply to, but it's hard moving down in pay, no matter how bad you need a change.
  4. MJ The Romaboy

    MJ The Romaboy CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Canadian or US $?

    Is your $21 per hour in US or Canadian currency?
  5. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Benefits, both mandated and voluntarily offered by the employer generally come to around 25% on top of the hourly wage.

    You don't say what benefits are offered ...vacation, sick pay, unemployment insurance, health and life insurance, employee discounts, Social Security, matching retirement plans, etc.

    That $ 21.oo per hour becomes more like $ 26.25 per hour.

    Not too shabby in my opinion. I'd consider working for somebody else for that in a heartbeat and not have the uncertainty or responsibility of running my own business.

    I realize you are not complaining and just comparing, but I'd say your employer has a fairly generous compensation package for you.
  6. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    We did a grumble survey about this, in June 2005 (so the numbers might be slightly higher now)

    Results for this will GREATLY vary by area. For example, pay and cost of living from NY or CA would vary greatly from KY or TN


    63% I pay hourly
    24% I pay some of each
    08% I don't have a payroll at this time
    02% I pay salary
    02% OTHER (see thread)
    02% Does not apply/None​

    08% I have no employees
    07% I have no employees and receive coverage from my partner/spouse's employer
    42% We offer HEALTH insurance
    08% We offer DENTAL insurance
    39% Coverage for owner(s)
    24% Coverage for manager(s)
    36% Coverage for full timer(s)
    05% Coverage for part timer(s)
    22% Coverage for employee's FAMILY
    08% Coverage for employee's DOMESTIC PARTNER
    10% Commission is paid for manager(s)
    10% Commission is paid for entire sales staff
    22% 1 week paid annual vacation
    22% 2 weeks paid annual vacation
    07% 3 weeks paid annual vacation
    03% 4 weeks paid annual vacation
    02% 5 or more weeks paid annual vacation
    37% Paid sick days (within reason)
    31% Paid annual vacation is on a graduated system that increases with years of service.
    24% Personal day(s)
    12% Paid birthday
    44% Personal framing at near cost
    32% Personal framing at discount
    07% Personal framing free
    10% Life insurance
    03% Profit sharing
    10% 401k or equivalent
    29% Bonus based on performance
    34% Bonus for holiday
    14% Tuition reimbursement: TRADE related education
    02% Tuition reimbursement: GENERAL education
    07% OTHER (see thread) ​

    81% Personality
    66% Basic math skills

    53% Willingness to work weekends
    44% Flexible hours/scheduling
    42% I prefer prior framing experience
    42% Sales background
    41% Artistic background
    37% References
    27% I prefer a 'newbie' to the industry
    22% High school diploma
    08% CPF® or other trade designation
    07% Does not apply/None
    07% College degree (associates)
    05% College degree (bach or higher)
    05% OTHER (see thread)

    04% Minimum wage
    73% Less than $10/hr
    18% $10.01-$12.00/hr
    02% $12.01-$14.00/hr
    02% $20.01-$22.00/hr

    05% Minimum wage
    51% Less than $10/hr
    35% $10.01-$12.00/hr

    07% $12.01-$14.00/hr
    02% Over $22.00/hr

    22% Less than $10/hr
    41% $10.01-$12.00/hr
    15% $12.01-$14.00/hr
    09% $14.01-$16.00/hr
    09% $16.01-$18.00/hr
    02% $18.01-$20.00/hr
    02% $20.01-$22.00/hr

    04% Less than $10/hr
    28% $10.01-$12.00/hr
    33% $12.01-$14.00/hr
    15% $14.01-$16.00/hr
    09% $16.01-$18.00/hr
    02% $18.01-$20.00/hr
    02% $20.01-$22.00/hr
    07% Over $22.00/hr

    04% Less than $10/hr
    07% $10.01-$12.00/hr
    05% $12.01-$14.00/hr
    30% $14.01-$16.00/hr
    15% $16.01-$18.00/hr
    15% $18.01-$20.00/hr
    04% $20.01-$22.00/hr
    07% $22.01-$24.00/hr
    07% $24.01-$26.00/hr
    07% Over $26.00/hr
  7. PCouch1001

    PCouch1001 Grumbler in Training


    I have a friend that pays his people between $7 to $9 and hour. All the framing they want at cost. Don't know what other things they receive. However, as a owner I would think the more benifits you can provide, even at the lower pay would help keep good people.
  8. Elaine

    Elaine SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    MJ - I think US and Canada are at equal on the dollar right now!

    $21 is good pay. No one in my area comes close to that - not even owners
  9. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    No medical benefits, 3 weeks paid vacation, unemployment insurance (everyone gets this), and employee discounts.

    I know I'm at a good hourly rate. Probably the highest paid in the city.
    I'm paid in Canadian currency, at the moment, this is almost at par with the US.

    But, as I say, I'm always looking for more $. And I'm thinking becoming an owner would possibly do this for me. (At the cost of added stress, responsiblity, etc . But it seems like the next logical progression.

    I would like to be paying myself at least $60,000 a year as an owner. I don't think this is unreasonable if you have an established high-end shop.

    Opinions please?
  10. framinzfun

    framinzfun MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I worked at a shop and made 14.50 per hour plus 5% commission on all sales when the boss was out for the day (I was the only employee). It was a great job, benefits were an option, but I had them through the husband. I also got a week or so vacation and had full time hours that were flexible. This was 5 years ago. The shop burned down. I got another job at a frame shop for a lot less, no paid vacation and haven't had a raise since I started 4 years ago..... Anyone want to guess why I decided to go into business for myself?

    Kallen, consider the fact that you wouldn't be able to pay yourself 60,000 to start out... you'd have to give it a few years. Would there ever be the option of buying the shop you work in currently?
  11. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Apparently, many others would like to be making that, and are not.

    I do think it is reasonable, given the two qualifiers presented:

    1. Established.
    2. High-end.

    The question is, can you do that?
  12. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    You might make $60,000 grand a year AFTER you have been in business for 5,10,15 years or so. I doubt many people starting out in business are making that kind of money, until they have established their business over a number of years.

    I've been in business 26 years, and I'm not sure I make $21.00 dollars an hour, if you factor in all the hours an owner puts in.. Do ya'll have any openings at your shop? ;)
  13. brian..k

    brian..k MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I work in one of the better paying areas of the US and can honestly say that what you are being paid is pretty much the top end of what a framer can make in my area, including for a manager. There are shops that will pay more than that for the right person but those jobs are hard to come by. I'm in your same shoes. I manage a shop rather than own and know that I have reached the plateau of my salary. Ownership is realy the only step you can take to improve your pay. Unless you can afford to buy an existing business though you are going to take a pay cut long before you take a pay raise. Listen to the owners posting on this site. So many framers like yourself see the green grass of their owners hard work and think that every frame shop can support the income level that their shop provides. The reality is much bleaker than that unfortunately. Just because you are a good or even a great framer doesn't mean that you will be successful in business. If you feel like taking that plunge then good luck to you. Make sure that you have a solid business plan and plenty of cash stashed for the hard times if you do though.
  14. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Many posters are envious of $21/hr

    Why do we have a "vow of poverty" in this trade

    We spend endless hours trying to improve on how we mount with Japanese Hinges or have a more finished fabric mat, yet so little time on trying to get our pay out of the $'s/Hr and into the K's/yr

    Someone mentioned trying to get our industry regarded less as a "trade" and more of a "profession"

    Don't most "professionals" get paid "so much" a year
  15. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    I think you have it backwards - most framers would revel in "trade" salaries. Instead, they take a vow of poverty to practice their "profession".

    Have you priced a plumber recently?
  16. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Don't most professionals not discuss their salary
  17. JBergelin

    JBergelin CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Bob -

    Perhaps we have this "vow of poverty" mentality because of the customer who just walked in...

    Kids art on 8.5 x 11., wants to save it for the future, it won awards, "I would like the frame with mat and glass - the entire job for $30.00" me "I wish I could meet your price would you consider one of these frames glass and mat for $50 - 60?"

    She left. I offered to cut a mat for her from "inhouse selection" ie dropouts if she found a frame she liked at Miers, WalMart or K-mart (small town with HL or M) she said she would be back. Maybe but I am not counting on it.

    Thankfully she stated her dollars up front 'cause it was obvious that there was no give so time was not lost - hers or mine.

    This customer give us the idea that we have to do it for less. Of course we don't have to but often we do to get the job.....

    The cart is often driving the horse.
  18. HB

    HB SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    You gotta work on getting customers of a different mentality. Advertise to the higher end, have higher end stuff on display, locate where the higher end shop.


    If you are worth that much, I'm guessing you are pretty capable unless you have a rich or foolish boss. You can answer that. You may be a very good framer, but can you manage & market & take a huge amount of stress. If yes - go for it. If no - you're doing good where you are.
  19. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Steph-You need to get out more

    Most of my contemporaries are "professionals"

    We often talk "shop"-what kind of year they're having, what kind of bonus to expect, what kind of raise they got or will ask for

    Trust me, it ain't ever "so much an hour"

    Forklift operators, plumbers, drivers-they all talk in "so much an hour"

    Now, in fairness, these conversations are between friends and colleagues and most folks don't talk "earnings" with anybody

    But, leave it to a bunch of grumblers to even argue (and defend) about vow's of poverty
  20. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    And, Bob, the only ones in the framing business that are that kind of "professional" are higher up in management of multi-million dollar framing enterprises or the "lucky" few who have very successful frame shop(s).

    I am retired from a higher paying profession (see my avatar) and run a successful little frame shop. I'm not afraid to offer and sell high end framing, but when I look around, I can't help but note that it would take a profound change of my business model to be young and able to live well, raise a family and end up with a retirement as comfortable as I have now.
  21. Dermot.

    Dermot. In Corner

    I was given a tip once….which was to work out how much I would cost my business………….to include everything………….which would mean a very very expensive salary

    When you have worked that out ……….put the hourly number (in my case 3 figures per hour) on a sheet of paper in a very prominent position just the numbers……..forget about the currency symbol you alone only need to know what the number means……….have it located in a position that you will see it many many many times a day………..

    When I worked out this hourly number with a very smart mentor……….I said “holy s*it” I will never make that ………….never the less I put the number up…………I have yet to meet my target number …………but I no longer apologise to myself for my ambitions and one day I will make it…..I’m getting nearer it all the time

    Putting the number in a visible place is a constant reminder of my worth to the business and a reminder of how much money I waste when I’m not engaged in my working day on something that is going to benefit my business……

    I no longer apologise or make excuses for having ambitions……..
  22. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    I used to see my job as just a job. But in the past few years, I've been looking at it more as a profession or trade. (No difference to me).

    It takes skill, creativity, and business sense. And I feel you have to have all three to be sucessful.

    Where I live, the wages for framers ranges between $9-15 an hour. (I'm probably the only framer making $21. It turns my stomach when I see job listings looking for framers, and they're only willing to pay 12 bucks an hour.

    So employers pay these low wages, and then can't seem to figure out why people quit after six months, a year, two years. There's a reason I've been where I am for so long. The shop I'm at needs me there, I'm good at what I do, have invested many years to get to where I am, and I asked for what I felt I was worth. (which by the way, was higher than 21.00).
  23. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    Kallen, if you were to submit a resume', what would you tell us that you "do", to command your current wage and more? What are your qualifications, experience, skills, divervisifications, education, etc, relating to the framing industry? What would your current employer say about them (you), if a potential employer were to check references?
    Not picking on you at all. But if you're our "dream framer", and available for $21+/hour, I'd certainly want the whole story...why, exactly, are you worth that? Convince us!
  24. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    The point of my thread was not to claim that I'm your "dream framer", but rather to find out if my situation is common or not.

    I would like to move on to something that gives me more. I feel I've hit a ceiling in my "career", and I'm wondering where I can go from here? Or, if I'm stuck because I can't afford to work for less. Which I can't.

    The next step seems to be becoming an owner, but it takes so much money, and risk.
    I'm thinking lately that it would be better to buy an existing shop, but it comes down to being at the right place at the right time, and having the cash at that moment.
  25. CB Art & Framing

    CB Art & Framing SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I would like to come to Kallen's defense. I earn $18 an hour with some limited benefits.

    I like the idea of paying framers MORE. You will have less turnover, attract a better, more reliable worker who over time will cost your company less and possibly be an asset. I DEFINITELY believe in paying good sales people a lot more. I think most retailers in this country are doing themselves a huge disservice by hiring minimum wage sales staff. Having worked in frameshops with all varieties of owners and sales people, I have observed that sales can easily be increased 100% or more depending on the quality and enthusiasm of the sales staff.

    Just as a side note:
    I once went on an interview at a frameshop, in San Diego by the way, and when asked what salary I was requesting I stated "$15/per hour". (this by the way is no where near living wage anywhere in California). The owner rudely replied "that's way more that I make", and I never heard back from him.

    I believe this shop is now for sale or going out of business, along with at least 5 others, including franchises, in this area.
  26. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Kallen -

    As a empolyee - you are making $21.00 plus fringes = that is in the $26-$27/hr range as an realistic expense to an owner.

    My question(s) to you..... What is the owner charging per hour to the clients? That includes shop rate projects and price chart fees for services such as fitting, mat cutting, joining, etc, etc. Are the charges of the shop you work in the same as other shops in your area? Or are you more efficient in the production of frames.

    Do you also handle the sales counter and other activities?

    Do you have any idea as to the average ticket size of an order?

    How many other framers are there?

    If your shop owner is charging way more per hour for services..... it is all trickle down to what he(she) can pay you without respect to actual framer efficiency.
  27. Whynot

    Whynot SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Don't panic, Val, this guy is just a biginner with his only 47 posts. He no longer will be talking like that after crossing the 5000 posts benchmark. By the way, why not be giving 0.3% commission to everyone who posted more than 5000 replies within his/her first two years of TG membership? Ron was given, and so was Baer, too. :)
  28. Whynot

    Whynot SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Perhaps you don't know it as yet, but US dollar to Canadian dollar exchange rate came to be 1 to 1 lately.
  29. Framerguy

    Framerguy PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well, Kallen, I'll betcha one thing, if I happen to be making much more than $21/hr., this thread would be the last place I'd make a comment about it!!!

    You sound a bit on the greedy side to me for someone who only has a bit over 10 years experience as a framer and I watch my back too closely to let a young upstart sneak around trying to take MY job away from me!!

    If you need a change all that bad, try tennis or fishing and be quite satisfied with a much better than average wage for any part of this continent.

    Just my personal opinion.
  30. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    Cornel, I didn't say I don't make $21/hr yet as the owner of my own shop of 25 years. I've only been the owner of this one for 21 months. And my 5000 posts are probably due to the fact that I had a lot of down time my first year, having been through two total hip replacement surgeries, waiting on a knee replacement, and the need for many little sit-down breaks, usually in front of my computer. Plus the fact that I've had many questions since discovering the Grumble, and finding out that I've been doing things not as best as I could've and I find out here how to be a better framer and business person. The Grumble is literally Framing School for me! I learn here, I have friends here, I laugh and cry here, I'm connected here.

    By the way, I did make a profit last year, my first as owner of it. My accountant was amazed. I have managed to pay myself every month, and considering what a first year I had (working mostly by myself) that's not bad . A lot of posts doesn't mean I've wasted a lot of time. I've been learning here, and getting some relief from a lot of hours and very hard work. I've earned every penny I've been able to pay myself, but I've also had to put a lot of what I've made back into the business, with repairs and upgrades of equipment, getting a CMC, some advertising, etc.....the shop/business was a mess when I stepped (limped) in. I'd guess some days I make $500+/hr and some days 25cents an hour, if you look at it as a payroll event, but I don't. When I sit down and pay bills, I decide what the business can afford to pay me and write the check.

    I "took home" more money , with health insurance when I worked at Michaels, , but the thought of going to work there every morning made my stomach hurt and I was absolutely miserable, even as much as I love framing. It wasn't about framing there. Now, thankfully, I have medical insurance through my husband's work. Bu what I do have now, in my own shop, is the satisfaction and pure joy of doing what I love, for customers who appreciate what I do, working in a business community that I feel a part of, with no-one looking over my shoulder with a "report" in their hand telling me I have a sales goal that I must meet every day or I might be fired. Running a business is hard work, being a framer is hard work, I don't recommend it for every person that thinks he/she might make a ton of money at it. There are those who do, and maybe in time I might, but I'm not starving and I look forward to being there every single day. What's that worth to me?

  31. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    Probably the jerkiest reply I've received yet.
    So many framers out there are so specialized in what they do, yet they seem to take a "poor me" attitude to their careers, stay with it for 10, 15, 20+ years, and then belittle the guy who feels he deserves fair compensation for only having 10 years experience.

    And for "WhyNot" I didn't realize this was an exclusive club. Yes, I only have 47 posts. Is it a contest? Do you wear the number of posts you've made as a badge of honour?

    So I'll leave you all to s****** and roll your eyes at my comments.
    You can make your little inside jokes, and feel great that you've all paid your dues on "The Grumble."

  32. CB Art & Framing

    CB Art & Framing SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    The hourly rate shops charge is only ONE factor in pricing a job. You have to look at a job as a whole. Materials have very healthy markups too, remember.

    All I know is one thing, and you shop owners out there, this is just my honest opinion. The Mall or Strip Mall frameshop, either independent or franchise, is going bye, bye fast!!!
    Why (again my humble observations).
    - Highly visible locations with high rents prohibit profitability.
    - Many framers/owners are good technicians, but bad salespeople.
    - Mom & Pop type mentality cannot survive these day.
    - Framers/owners tend to undersell.
    - FRAMERS are not valued as skilled employees, are paid too little, and have no incentive to help grow a business.
  33. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    I also feel offended by your comments.....

    You did not respond to my questions of about 4 hours ago... Rather you took a slap a another comment.

    We have no ideal of the "total picture" of your situation. We only know a very few tidbits of what your situation is.

    As has been noted in many threads over the years, every geographical location is not the same. However, basic business concepts stay fairly constant.

    In most labor negotiations there is room for back and forth talk. These negotiations, however, have to benefit both sides(owner and employee). A owner will not stay in business if they have to pay an employee more than what they can charge their customers, plus materials and other operating expenses and leave that owner with a reasonable profit.

  34. mikki

    mikki MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    20 years $10.00 an hour no benifits (ok if my kid was sick I stayed home unless it was x-mas rush or some other rush job or the boss humphed or whatever) $21 an hour WOW do you hand paint mats doyou shadowbox do you palce orders? Yes I am ticked! $21.00 an hour!!!!
  35. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    Do you vaccum and take out the trash? Windows?? Shovel snow?
  36. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    It depends a lot also on the area where the business is located.

    Here in CT the minimum wage is almost $8 an hour. One really cannot hire framers with x years of experience and pay them a few pennies above what a person at McDonald's (no offense meant, just a comparison) earns.

    Everything is more expensive here (eastern CT in the New York Metro area) than other parts of the country, except maybe for the left coast, and some areas in between. Especially housing, and one has to pay accordingly if one wants (and wants to retain) a decent employee.

    My employee, who has over 15 years of framing experience earns a hint below $21 / hour.
  37. CB Art & Framing

    CB Art & Framing SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Michaels pays school kids $10 an hour. If that's the business you want to be in, go open 500 stores, use framing as a loss leader, and compete!!!!
  38. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    $10:00 per hour would be below the minimum legal wage here, for any adult wage.

    We must also, by law, pay holiday pay to full and part time employees (about 5 weeks incl public holidays) after 3 months full time employment (pro-rata weeks for part time) Medical insurance is not an issue - we're a welfare state - but larger companies will provide private health insurance schemes - plus those that can afford it will have it, mainly because our National Health Service is not much cop - well - rather it is quite good but waiting lists are a bit silly - pay insurance - see the same specialist quicker - make the non- payer wait even longer!

    Hey - Kallen, Whynot's posting had a Smiley- I could tell it was tongue-in-cheek without it though - and - for the record - I'd pay someone what you seem to think is a good wage if you ran your own business - if they could cut it.
  39. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    The average ticket size of an order is between $500 and $1000. I did three identical frames last week. 30"x30" 8 ply mats, conservation glass. I can't remember the cost per foot of the moulding.The invoice was $1700.

    We have another order of 60 gallery pieces this week.- All floats with spacers. Average cost per piece $200-300.

    And another gallery order of 75 pieces. Average cost per piece $100-180.oo per piece. Basic wood frames, single mats.

    Another single piece I'm working on next week is (final invoice) $1400.oo

    So it's a wide range of doing volume orders for galleries, and high-end single orders, and everything in between.

    I handle sales at the counter, I order materials, installations, fillets, 8 ply mats, object framing, shadow boxes, plexi-glass cases, fabric wrapped liners, specialty objects of varying weights from: -1lbs to 50+ lbs. We also do many re-framing projects for offices, home renovations, etc. The value of the works I deal with also range. From: A $1.00 canvas bought in India, to paintings worth $500,000 or more.

    After taxes, my yearly salary is ~ $32,000. The shop where I work has an annual profit of $200-250,000. After material expenses, wages, rent, utilities, etc. The average cost of a house where I live is $740,000. This is for a house within the age of 60-100 years old. The average rent for a one bedroom apartment is $900-1200 per month.

    At $32,000 a year, I'm making $10,000 more a year than the national poverty line in Canada for my area it's population.

    I carry $37,000 of personal debt, and am trying to open a business in the next 2 years. It feels like I have a mountain to climb, and the risk of losing is so great. Thinking I would like to make $60,000 a year I don't think is being greedy. It's what most people in my area need as a minimum to live a normal middle-class lifestyle.
  40. Whynot

    Whynot SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    Don't look any further for a better than $21/h paid jobs. How would you like to make frames for a change? I'll pay you $31.25/h. That is $21/h to keep silent and listen to what other people are asking you, and (am I too demanding?) give them straight answers, $10/h to be a good learner, and $0.25 to keep saying only good jokes.

    I thought I knew all the high end framers in North America, but I obviously missed your shop. What type of frames sell best in there? What are the bread and butter lines in that shop?

    I just read Kallen's post above. See, my dear American friends, what huge taxes make things look like? And you are bashing the republicans for cutting taxes :)
    This is reminding me of Europe (sorry Dermot, John) where they earn big on paper just to take home half of it. Perhaps Kallen is not making all that much as we thought he would, if he earned that $21/h in US.
  41. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    If I could learn the type of framing that American Choice does, I'd be thrilled. There is no training for this type of product where I live. As much as people pay for the framing I do, I've been told by other shops that have tried to carry these products, "people just aren't willing to pay for handmade frames."
  42. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    My hourly after tax wage is ~ $16.75 an hour.

    Before taxes, it's still only ~$40,000 a year. And people are calling me greedy. How many people here own their own homes? I don't, and the way the housing prices are going up here, I realistically never will.
  43. Framerguy

    Framerguy PFG, Picture Framing God

    I was going to let this one ride but I just think that you have a little bit to learn about basic human frailty and common sense before you go making claims to a group of over 4000 professionals of whom you know very little about. And you apparently expected us to pat you on the back for doing such a bang up job and earning all that per hour money when we knew absolutely nothing about you or your background. You obviously posted your situation in light of how you feel about yourself and your position in the shop that you are in or you would not have come on so strong and opinionated as you did after my reply. You probably offended many more than Mr. Feig and myself as we have seen the likes of you so many times here on the Grumble over the years.

    No, your small post count has little to do with what you said and therein lies the problem. You have taken an attitude about those of us who are regular participants on this forum that is common of those who are at that stage in their career where they think they are quite the skilled framer and feel that their present boss doesn't give them the proper credit due for their self implied accomplishments and experience. I would be curious to hear your bosses opinion of your high opinion of you competency as a professional framer.

    There are many on this forum who will vouch for what treasures of education are contained here and in the archives and those goodies just didn't appear out of nowhere. They were put there by "jerks" like myself and many others over the past how many years in hopes that newer framers and people thinking about starting out in framing have some concept of what to expect and how to proceed. Over and above the many thousand hints and tips of framing that are offered for anyone to use freely there are many of us "jerks" that have indeed paid our dues and have made the mistakes in our careers that we hope that new framers would take the time to read and have the humility to absorb as teachings rather than come on here attempting to impress everyone with their high wages and how much they know about framing with no proof to back up their mouthy claims.

    I would hope that you make an attempt to change your attitudes about those on this forum who have spent double and triple the time in this profession that you have and come to realize that those years count for something when you get to receive the benefits that we have earned in the form of how to do those things that puzzle new people to the world of framing. We happen to be a very caring and sharing group of people who have formed close relationships with each other in many cases and will come to the aid of those who respond with like attitudes to our questions when we have them.

    I never mind answering some basic question even though I have seen the exact same question posed by some other new framer every few months since I joined this mottly crew. But I do mind and have come down hard on those with "attitude" that goes below the level that we have come to expect from new people on this forum.

    If you have come to learn, I say welcome. If you have come to try to impress us with all you know or how much you make without offering more than what is already in your profile for us to know about you, thanks but no thanks, we have more than enough already.
  44. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    I was offended by the above comment. It was a jerky comment to make. In my opinion. No comment I made prior to this one, (I believe) justified someone else calling me "greedy." Or "try tennis or fishing..."

    if this comment was made to anyone else, they'd feel the same.

    What claims exactly did I make? Before you posted an offensive posting?
    There are some very helpful people on this forum, but there seem to be some defensive highbrows here too.

    I answered JFeig's question. I wasn't looking for a pat on the back. He asked what type of work I do, what the average ticket prices were, etc. I answered this.

    My initial purpose for the question was to find out if there's anywhere else to go but ownership?

    I informed you of the economy where I live, cost of living, etc. And I told you what I brought home "after taxes".

    Calling me greedy was out of line.
  45. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    You took it as me trying to impress you. Nowhere did I post it like that.
  46. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Cornel, please let's not go there now.

    We know darn well how fiscally responsible the Republicans have been the last 8 miserable years. Maybe you are from Europe, but the Europe I know and where I lived, people have more money (and free time) at the end of the day (despite higher taxes) than here.

    Maybe not in Romania though, but Western Europe for sure.

    Cutting taxers for donors and special interests have nothing to do with the economy and the average family. I am still waiting for the voodoo economic tax cuts to trickle down to my level. Thank you.

    Where taxes are cut, tons of new hidden fees and local taxes MUST take their place to make up for the cuts for the super rich and the hedge fund fat cats (and one doesn't have to have an MBA to know that, but that seems to be lost on the sheeple).

    We are waging a $300 billion per year war and charging it to our kids, as we speak. Republicans used to be a fiscally responsible party (and admirably so) but they don't believe that themselves now either.

    So please, let's not go that slippery road of thanking them for cutting taxes for less than 1% of the population that could really benefit from it

    The monstrous deficit is looking at us with greedy eyes and our kids will be "enjoying" paying for the Republican's folly for a long time.

    Now, let's go back to our regularly scheduled grumbling.;)
  47. CB Art & Framing

    CB Art & Framing SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    GO KALLEN!!! I'm on your side. Now I realize why this board is called "THE GRUMBLE". It's a forum where 4000 professionals can compete as to who can get the most posts. I had hoped it was a forum to promote effective growth and professionalism in the Custom Picture Framing Industry. I guess I was wrong.
    Let's hear from some of those 4000 professionals as to what their how much nett profit their Business makes annually?
  48. Whynot

    Whynot SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Wow, had you been so candid? Of course the competition is solely about becoming Grumbler Gods, because of the money involved with that position of trust and power. The first three gods are being sponsored by Nike, next three by Budweiser. But we must pretend to be professional framers and discuss technicalities, which is not always so easy. If you don't need that 0.3% commission, you still may be of help in that you can inspire others replies. With this post I got two steps closer to get my badge of grumbler immortality and collect my weekly check some time in the future.
    Did I say that replies with quotes are counted double and one with picture attachments are worth like five times the norm?
    Did you get that or shall I post a picture, pleeease? :)
  49. D_Derbonne

    D_Derbonne PFG, Picture Framing God

    Kallen states that he(she?) has a fairly large amount of personal debt.
    That alone seems to prohibit starting a business...at least in my eyes.

    If you have reached the ceiling in your profession you might try getting some education and entering another line of work.

    I think that retail work in general is not a high paying profession and becoming an owner is not neccessarily the next step.
    If that is what you want to do then be sure to have a business plan and have plenty of startup capital.
  50. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Five years ago I had a framer retire who had worked 40 years for us.

    His hourly pay was just under $ 15.00 per hour. Benefits included health and life insurance, disability insurance, 4 weeks paid vacation, paid sick leave, holiday pay, unemployment insurance, matching Social Security, the ability to do installations on his own time as a side line, retirement plan, personal framing and other items in store at cost, and autonomy as to what he did during the day as long as he got the work out.

    On the down side, the framing department only made about $ 3-5,000 per year after all expenses. It could have done much better but the autonomy I gave him and the compensation he received was a comfort zone for him.

    I would've loved to pay him more but he did little to improve profitability or learn new techniques to bolster profits. He was good at what he did, but very set in his ways.

    Cost of living in our area was one of the lowest in the country.

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