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Hourly Pay - What you pay or get paid?

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Kallen, Oct 5, 2007.

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  1. Elaine

    Elaine SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    As a professional and an owner of a shop, if I saw this type of information posted on a public forum by any of my present employees, I would FIRE you. The net profit of a business is that businesses private information and shariing it on a public forum shows how "unprofessional" you are.

    Posting on this forum is not a competition, and thinking of it as so, belittles the knowledge that is shared here.

    my 2 cents

  2. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Do I get extra points for quoting myself.

    Ridiculous! Hey someone wake me after the 2008 elections, maybe things will improve around this joint.
  3. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    What even after this? Put this ungrateful ..... person on your ignore list everyone!

    DTWDSM SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    You link does not sow anything.

    As for the subject....

    Kallen, at your rate there really is not many places that you could go and make more. The only way would be to own your own shop, you say that there is too much risk. You also say that the shop you are at profits 200-250K per year after all expenses......the more risk = the more reward.

    I have no idea if your skils are worth what you are paid, it's all a matter of opinion of the person paying you. You may be a very skilled framer, the question that you need to ask yourself is do you have the skills needed to run a business?

    Your personal financial status is not your employers problem or responsibility. Sure they have to pay a fair competitive wage (which by your statements they are exceeding) but you need to be the one to make the wage work with the status that you want to live by.

    If you want to make more money why not talk to your employer about some sort of retirement plan? I do not know what the Canadian laws are but this is a good way to save money tax free in the US and if your employer contributes you can earn more and they can write it off and cut back on the companiy's taxes on that 200-250K. But as I said i do not know how this would work in Canada.

    Only 3766 more posts til 5000
  5. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    Really? ooo-er! - does for me - it's all threads started by a very grateful CB Art&Framing.



  6. CB Art & Framing

    CB Art & Framing SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Put this ungrateful ..... person on your ignore list everyone!
    Robo Framer, I am actually grateful for the framing related information shared on this forum. I myself, been a professional framer for over 17 years, have shared some of my knowledge too. But, there is definitely an attitude of "power" in this forum. You can be single-minded all you want, but I am someone as I said who has very extensive framing experience, as well as having owned businesses prior to that. I can offer objective opinions from both sides of the fence.
    Elaine, what's wrong with a worker posting his salary. The ammount of "hysteria" posted here by owners is what's unprofessional. Don't fear, your employees are not going to demand $21/hour.
    And, yes. The reason for wanting to know sales figures & profit margins, is to see if you guys are "really" in business, or just "hobyists".
  7. Elaine

    Elaine SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    It's not the posting of hourly rates that I take issue with. Employees can do all the research they want. I've probably already done it way ahead of them for myself before they are hired, and have logical data that supports their pay. Ego doesn't play a part in my salary levels.

    The issue I have is with an employee sharing their employers net profit numbers, sales numbers, etc. That is grounds for dismissal. All of my employees sign a nondisclosure agreement about the information that they are privy to as an employee working for my stores. It is not for sharing. A businesses' information is not for public viewing unless the owner decides that it is, and then it is his/her perogative to share it in whatever format or forum they choose and how much is shared.

    My concern clarified.

    Besides, it is not for anyone here to decide if any one person is "really" in business or a hobbiest. Usually the responses on forum sift those out.

  8. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Nothing to add. I just wanted to up my post count. ;)
  9. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It's not your post count, but how many of your posts really count!

  10. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    I thought it was a simple question.
    I've decided to give my 2 weeks notice tomorrow, and move onto another unrelated (to framing) job offer I've had.

    All the best.
  11. Dermot.

    Dermot. In Corner

    Good luck with the new job....
  12. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Kallen ...forget about ever opening your own shop. You don't have the passion. Go make widgets.

    In order to be successful at framing, at any level, you have to have a passion for it. If money is the most important thing ...go make widgets.
  13. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    Wow. :p That didn't take long, did it? Sounds like you already had your mind made up.

    Glad we could help, Kallen.....I think!
    Good luck on your new venture.

    Anybody live near Surry, BC that needs a job framing at $21/hr??

    I just love framing.............and The Grumble!!
  14. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    Thanks Dave. I really appreciate you putting me in my place there.
    Good one.:thumbsup:
  15. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    It's probably just me, but I am a little confused and may have missed some of the story. I though you were working for this high end shop making 200-250K profit every year.

    This thread http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=26849 sounded like the shop you were working at was a little less desirable.

    Probably just me, as I didn't read every word. Guess it doesn't really matter as you are moving on. Certainly understand the need to make a living. Having been an employee and the the owner of a business most of my life, I can say that most employees only see the $ they think the owner must be raking in. Kind of like customers thinking, $200. for a frame job, it's only 4 pcs of wood.

    Wish you happiness and success in your new job. Work on paying off your debt and then work toward your dreams.
  16. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    Good luck Kallen!

    Next please.
  17. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Public forums have an interesting dynamic, they're like a dinner party that is open to everyone.

    For a period of time the party is going well, good information and friendly banter being tossed around. Then a new person arrives and soon reveals an agenda of wreaking havoc on the party (not you Kallen). The regular participants have seen this type come and go many times. Thus they are a bit skeptical of newcomers who don't reveal their background and make their intentions clear.

    New people who don't properly introduce themselves and come on a bit too strong are not given much leeway and can get blasted pretty quick.

    Usually a well-intentioned newcomer doesn't realize that an introduction is appreciated and that some restraint is required so if you get even a little carried away, someone will try to find out more about where you are coming from. This is often taken as hostility and begins a downward spiral when the newcomer blasts back.

    I don't remember what information is given to people who haven't posted before. Maybe there should be a recommendation when signing up that a little background about you with your first post is necessary.
  18. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    wow...that was a huge waste of internet space........gee thanks
  19. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    My sentiments exactly, Steph.

    When he blurted out his real intentions I was blown away and responded quite bluntly.

    If his original post was whether or not he should stay in the framing business I wouldn't have responded like I did.

    Instead he purported to be a framer but revealed that there was something else going on.

  20. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'm going to miss Kallen, although we learned hardly anything about her. Her first thread was 56 replies, and the second one is up to 70 already. She must ask entertaining questions to get that many replies on her threads.

    Good luck Kallen.
  21. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    You're input on the topic was very helpful, Steph.

    I'm still planning on opening my own shop. This new job will afford me to get out of debt, and make more $ to be able to save. I have a 2 year plan to buy a shop.
  22. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey CB-Is this more of that "positive" outlook you were bragging about?

    What makes you so mad?
  23. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Kallen ...I wish you the best of luck and hope you realize the fruit of your planned hard labor. I apologize for my bluntness and hope you come back here often.
  24. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    I think from now on, I'll only post if someone wants to know "how to do something." I'll offer what I might know about certain techniques, and try to help where I can.

    (I like the discussions over at "theframersforum.com" . The hints and tips, techniques, etc.)

    I will avoid asking questions about business, wages, earnings, profits, etc.
    Now I want this thread to die, and bury itself into the archives.
  25. Framar

    Framar SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Kallen - wishing you well in your new endeavor - but you must remember - when it comes to the Grumble - "Nothing is ever forgotten."

    And that other forum you mentioned just a brief look-see showed kwite a few Grumblers!!!

    And, since you have been described as both a "he" and a "she" - could you at least tell us which is correct?

    Maybe that is a field that framers should be forced to fill out when registering on the Grumble - gender!!! Either that or no one should ever make any gender-specific references unless one is really really certain!!! I know I always try to be vewwy vewwy careful when dealing with an unknown entity - kinda like that old SNL routine about "Pat."
  26. DTWDSM

    DTWDSM SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I will send an email to Al Gore and ask him to make it disappear, he invented the Internet you know. :)

    Good luck in whatever it is that you are moving on to whoever you are.
  27. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    ..and I'm a man and I can bring home the bacon and cook it up in a pan!


    ...and I even know what to do with the grease and clean that friggin' pan.
  28. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

    It was weird when I first got here and someone called me "he", same with Framar and Terry Scidmore and Neven....
    I am WOMAN, hear me ROAR!
  29. Susan L. Young

    Susan L. Young CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    My two cents: To Kallen, when I was planning to take my 9-year basement framing business to a retail storefront (5 years ago), the very, very best advice I received went something like this:

    "You need to understand that this retail storefront and all that comprises it will cost more than you estimate. You need to understand the commitment of owning the store. While you've run your own little framing business and watched it grow, having a storefront is a different animal. Employees, even the very, very best little Pollyanna you can hire, will never quite care about your business like you do. Landlords care about, well money. That's all. Not you, not your dream, but money. There will be months that you don't pay yourself, hopefully during your growth start up period only. Think about your gross sales potential, and assuming that your margins are where they need to be, you can plan to make approx. 20% of your gross in salary."

    All of this was true. So, to pay yourself 60K a year, do the math on what your gross needs to be (with sound business operations to protect your margins) and know you can make your numbers. Know that you have a financial cushion for the lean times, when you need to put more into the business. It will happen.

    I hope that you will continue to work towards your dreams, and that you will realize them. Growing my 'little hobby' into a viable business has been the hardest thing I've ever done, and it is by far the most satisifying. While the responsibility has been all mine, I could not have done it without all the advice that other framers (and retailers who aren't framers) offered over the years. Just remember, a new independent frame shop is hardly a money machine. The sales volume you see where you work now (which I should not be privy to, by the way:smiley:) represents a lot of start up efforts that you can't imagine.

    We all bring our own experiences to the table, to share. Sort through what works for you, and discard the rest. You'd be surprised what you learn, even from someone you've ended up disagreeing or even butting heads with.

    I wish you good luck, and if you love the industry, keep going towards your goals. Just pay down personal debt first. Now, let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya. :smiley:
  30. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    Sounds serious...

    Last time I checked, I was a woman.
  31. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    Thanks for the helpful advice. And thanks for not hating me.:icon20: LOL
  32. Baer Charlton

    Baer Charlton SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    all is perspective:

    30 years ago I dreamed of making the income I struggle to survive on.

    Einstein said everything is relative:

    When you talk to a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like only seconds.
    When you sit on a hot stove for a second, it seems like an hour.

    Kallen, I'm sure that Bob Carter wouldn't work for your wage, and another owner would kill for your income.

    Good luck in your new life.
  33. Framar

    Framar SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    OK, Kallen - now that you have changed your Avatar I can say officially "You Go Girl!!!" (and if you listen carefully you can hear Bob Carter groaning) ;)

    Plus, look over on Warped - all the boys were drooling over Wonder Woman just a few days ago!!!
  34. Kallen

    Kallen True Grumbler

    I think that was me groaning...:icon11:
  35. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Has anyone ever mentioned that you have a striking resemblance to Barbara Eden? ;)
  36. pamazon

    pamazon CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    I might move to White Rock for 21.00 an hour. It's just a hop skip and a ferry.
    I have been framing for 20 years and don't make quite that much an hour, although I do have full, dental, medical, pizza day once a month, plus a 250.00 (wholesale) framing allowance each year. Plus I work in a warehouse, dress how I like and listen to whatever sort of music I like. I think that I have a sweet job!!
  37. brian..k

    brian..k MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I was just in White Rock for the light parade this summer. What a great little town. Of course I had 8 pints of Stella in me(the beer not a girl, though I was with 5 lovely women and no men that day and I got to see the nipple of a girl that was not my wife). One of the best days of my summer. No it was the best day of my summer, nipple or not ;)
  38. UzZx32QU

    UzZx32QU Administrator Staff Member

    This whole thread is BS...

    A total waste of 0 & 1's.

American Picture Frame Academy 1-888-840-9605

The American Picture Framing Academy Learn Picture Framing Now
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