Baer is correct....gluing the joints is joining the frame. I have in 30+ years joined a frame with only glue -- not many times, but it is joining the frame, technically.... Actually on the one occasion that I recall, the frame was a very small octagon, less than 7 inches in height My point is that it is the glue that holds a frame together. Any other device used accelerates the joining process and prevents the contents from spilling out, if ever a joined corner should fail. (To your point of concern!)Baer Charlton said:Sadie, you need to re-define your term "not joining". By virtue that the frame was glued together it was "joined"....
Jim is correct, but the one thing he didn't mention is that end to end grain on a wood frame as in a standard mitre creates one of the weakest wood to wood bonds of all, hence the use of a fastener, like a brad (pin - UK), V-nail, wedge, etc.jim_p said:When properly applied, standard wood glue is incredibly strong... tensile strength well over 2000 psi ...........This means that the miter is perfect, the wood is smooth and clean, there is 100% contact between the two pieces being joined, and adequate clamping pressure is applied until the glue cures....
Indeed! "Extra" being the operative word here....For those of us who use glue, most joining techniques serve two purposes: (1) to pull the pieces together while the glue sets (in lieu of clamping) and (2) to serve as extra reinforcement for the joint.
Hi janet. I use glue and v-nails also. Most of the time, when customers bring in frames damaged after falling off a wall is because of framing they had done elsewhere which, for example, they put the eyes screws too close to the rabbit or the eye screws they used were too small and/or too short for the weight! mad: I never liked eye screws...I quit using eye screws a few years ago.) Very rarely are any damaged frames brought in that are only glued and not nailed AND glued...I guess there are pitfalls to every method. I don't knock glue-only, its just not what I use. I can't argue that its a stronger or a weaker joint. But I know I'd have to have a lot more patience and time than what I have to do it. In this case, it wasn't the join itself that just failed it was dropped. On the other hand, a framer that uses duct tape needs a speech or two.
I join use v-nails and glue.
While I can easily say that I've repaired frames with glue-only joints (twice in 3 years) that have fallen off the wall, I've also repaired three times that many of other joins.
In a nutshell, I don't know why people who have frames fall off the wall expect them to not break. Although falling off the wall is certainly a hazard of framing, making frames indestructible isn't my main concern.
People should be prepared to pay for repairs to any possessions that get damaged. Why should framing be any different?
The glues vary, BUT in general, most of the modern glues obtain 75% of their "cured" bond in less than 2 hour (most in 1 hour). But all reach 98% in 12-24 hours.So it would be very beneficial to leave a frame sit for hours or overnight after joining with glue and vnails?
If a glued joint were to come loose then there is only two ways it wouldn't fall completely apart. Either a mechanical fastener was used or it was joined with magic glue that bonds to thin air to hold the frame together. Is there a third option assuming duct tape wasn't used?Sure we have occasional joints loosen but they don't just turn lose, fall apart.
Ditto.Refitting an antique frame is a rather common event at my shop (two yesterday). I don't believe I have ever seen a single one that had all 4 joints solid. More typical is a frame with all 4 joints failed and held together with mechanical fasteners.
Double down ditto. Never saw a cross nailed joint that didn't make me want to slap whoever.I can't recall the number of times we've been called upon to repair frames that have been cross nailed in the mistaken belief that the joint will be stronger. All the cross nailing accomplished was to make the repair harder and more noticeable.
I really appreciate your comments, Warren, because it's important to hear what a professional wood joiner considers good technique. I would suggest the frame I referenced in this thread was not joined with appropriate technique since it came apart rather easily.And I repeat, there is nothing to be gained by using a mechanical fastner in a properly glued and clamped miter joint. I think there is a picture in one of the back room gallery sections at our web site that shows a properly clamped mitre joint. That joint is not going to fail "catastrophically"; it's not going to fail at all. I guess my experience in 30 years of framing has been limited but I've yet to see an example of a catastrophic failure. I know we've had to take glued frames apart for various reasons and it's difficult. In my experience, picture frames come apart; they don't explode. If they did, believe me doing arround 30 frames a day for years and years we'd know about it. Sure we have occasional joints loosen but they don't just turn lose, fall apart.
Yup, you've lead a sheltered life. Some of my "best", (well, most expensive at least) frames did just that.... 'explode'. But then, that's what a strip of C2 and det-cord are all about.... ("B" grade movies on "D" grade budgets.... staight to VCR)picture frames come apart; they don't explode
100% of the frames I've seen with busted joints were held together with nails. I've never seen a joint just glued that has failed pointed out in the opening of this thread. By what metric do you use to suggest that vnails cause a joint to fail faster? Using your logic, if the glue joint was good, then shouldn't the vnail be a non issue?...surely in your experience you've seen failed picture frames and you must have observed that not all of the joints fail uniformly, that there is paper glued to the back of the legs; some corners may be gone but other's are holding, and, yes, it's not only possible but, in my experience common, for joints to loosen up gradually-that is some part of the joint is still holding while other parts aren't. There is a cost to using v nails, they make joints fail faster and they make joints harder to repair.
Absolute statements are a tricky slope.100% of the frames I've seen with busted joints were held together with nails. .
It's currently accurate. Notice the "I've seen" part. Oh wait...the "nails". I should have said "fastened". What I mean is that i have never seen one that was only glued fail. Maybe thats because they are so gosh darn good? Or maybe it's becuase its been ruled out and rarely done? Who knows?Absolute statements are a tricky slope.
I've read that 3 times and I don't have any idea what you're saying. But I agree except that I"m an "expert on antique frames". I've never made such a claim.So if you, being an expert on antique frames, have seen many failed, nailed antique frames and have never seen any glue only frames then maybe glue only is the way to go since no antique glue only have failed.
Absolutely.Absolute statements are a tricky slope.
Just wonder whether these tests apply to:Glued miter joints were able to withstand a peak load of 1,374 lbs. "Surprisingly strong". Baer, the cope and stick, by comparison, came in at 313 lbs. Interestingly, a butt joint withstood a peak load of 473 lbs., somewhat stronger than a cope and stick. So much for increased surface area. That 1,374 lbs.of the miter joint is pretty impressive. The mechanical biscuit butt joint was a mere 545 lbs.
*ull Sh*t!Fine Wood Working, pretty much the magazine of record for wood workers
The corners were glued, then the poster and plexi were taped together with packing tape and then the whole thing was assembled in the frame and sealed with brown duct tape.
...the joints on that hypothetical frame you imagined hanging on to life with only backing paper is going to be easy to repair and can look forward to a whole new 30 years of blissful display.
The duct tape didn't hold squat....
OK so there was no question, just a suggestion to consider joining the frame before selling it to a customer.So, customer just moved here from Denver. She had a frame that fell off the wall so she brought it to us to fix.
Right on! Thanks for a good laugh to start the day.Well I guess we can close this chapter now. Mab what you have there isn't furniture store junk. Quite the opposite. What you have is a classic joining style adopted by master craftsman and finest frame makers of centuries past. The frame joinery used on your frame is surely the standard at inimitable boutiques across Italy and Spain. Your nescient eye missed how well the artisan leaf finish incorporates with modern adhesive bonding agent to create the perfect blend of form and function. Not only is the frame a perfect accent piece but the “break away” joint is specifically un-supported with inferior mechanical means lending itself to effortless repairs.