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Opinions Wanted How to combat the recession!

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by joeylowe, Feb 13, 2009.

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  1. Harry FKA Harry

    Harry FKA Harry CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Unbelievable! That's all I can say. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. This man comes on here and tries to start what I find to be an interesting conversation and you all just bash him. I don't get it. I for one, have enjoyed reading the constructive posts that have resulted from this and I hope they continue.

    I will admit, I was taken back and a little turned off by Joey's first post, but after reading on, I got over it. I suggest you all do the same.

    Y'all just need to relax.
     
  2. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God


    Actually, my website does very well for me. It has by far been the best advertising medium I have every entered. Hands down.

    [​IMG]


    My site is organically in the top spot using the keyword combinations that I push.

    And guess what, it is absolutely free. I have not paid one thin dime for it.

    So I ask you sir, where's the beef?
     
  3. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    Hi Tim,

    Thanks for that advice and I appreciate your view. If I may be so bold to offer my view back. Cabinetmakers are probably the most clickish of all. Why? Because they get burned by customers, builders, suppliers and the attitude is always buyer beware. But there is a lot to be said for an outsider looking in. Some of the biggest business successes of all time didn't create an original idea or even an original product. They simply borrowed a concept or process from another industry and applied it to their own. So there is a lot to be said for being receptive to outside (if there is such a thing) advice.

    You're right. I don't have a book for sale. But since you asked me to be specific, let me share with you specifically why websites don't work well unless you are selling information or offering a product that can be shipped and delivered within 24 hours. People don't come to the worldwide web looking to buy anything. They come to find out things. They look for new ideas. They look for problem solutions. (Kind of getting wordy again I know, but sometimes you have to explain in order to garner understanding).

    Using my problem statement example, if you know what problems or solutions your customers are looking for and you are able to target those customers with accurate information that is directed to those problems and solutions, doesn't it make sense that you will make the sale? Just like convincing a customer why they should spend $400 on a custom frame is a process, so is explaining a different way of effectively marketing your product on the Internet. Again, this is not an attempt to sell anything to anyone. Not interested in that. I would encourage any skeptic to go back and read my original post.
     
  4. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    No expert here, for sure. However it brings to mind the oft quote, "you can make statistics say anything you want" Most of us small custom framers are not selling things over the internet, certainly not outside of our immediate physical trade area. So how well our site performs / or is found out of the gazillion sites on the web is not so important for us. How we are found when people are doing local type searches is. Most of us that have put any effort into it at all, do pretty well there. I know when people are using keywords to search for a picture framer in my area, I am almost always on the first page in spot #1,2 3.
     
  5. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm sorry if you feel attacked. I honestly can see some examples where I would think the same. Nowhere in my posts should you feel that way. “Internet scientist” isn't derogatory. “Pro” isn't either. Considering your interest and ability to dig up bits of information, I think they are great descriptions. You want to "better understand the level of business sophistication you are dealing with" and I would like to know that also. Sounds fair doesn't it?

    I do find it interesting, and always will, why so many people who admittedly have little interest in this trade desire to educate those of us actually in the trenches. A trade show a few years ago I counted something like 20 “educators” and of them about 5 actually worked in this industry and like 3 owned a frameshop. I tend to learn 10 fold over a beer or two with another shop owner than a ½ day of classes. The stuff I'm hearing from this thread seems like an echo of some classes I've taken. The spirit of the G is much different than a classroom setting. Internet etiquette requires you learn the nuances of a group before participating. Failure to do can cause some real growing pains.

    The word “discussion” keeps coming up and this seems like anything but. You don't follow the spirit of your own suggestions. Why are you shocked that I would ask why? I would ask you why over an adult beverage and I'm asking why here. You're welcome to do the same. If you can't tolerate this in either setting, I don't see why that's my problem.

    I've met so many personal friends right here and learned mountains about many facets of business from the G. I learn something here almost every day. I suspect that if you would let your guard down for just a minute you may have a similar experience. I find your last statement the most blatant attack in this thread. "So everyone can let their guard back down and go on with their lives trying to scrape out a living trying to sell a custom frame for more than what you can get the same thing from a national retailer. Some of you will be better off going back to selling real estate too. I hear it's a banner year for that industry too."

    If you insist on leaving, could you please link me to the cat you mentioned in your first post. I don't recall that discussion as it may predate my participation here. I'm going to guess it will be fun to compare and contrast that thread with this one....
     
  6. Warren Tucker

    Warren Tucker MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Jay, we don't have a POS and while we do have a CMC (for 11 years, I think) we still cut over 90% of our mats by hand (that's way faster than using the CMC). We've timed cutting on the CMC and it only wins on complicated mats. I think POS is impersonal and an artificial barrier between the customer and the staff. It's also slower by a lot than hand writing; we frequently have 3 or more sales going on at the same time. We hate to have customers in our stores waiting to be waited on.
     
  7. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    I think you are a little out of touch on the CMCs of today Warren.

    If you get a chance, watch someones Valliani in action.
     
  8. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Joey,
    I apologize for being so dense, but I just cannot find "Picture This" in Gilmer, TX.
    What did you say the address is?

    Also, someone needs to tell Art.com and Posters.com that people don't buy custom framing on the internet, because they seem to be selling hundreds of millions of dollars worth every year.

    For your FYI, they are the same people that destroyed the print selling business of almost every indy picture framer in the US selling prints on the internet.

    Credibility is the name of the game on the G my friend.
     
  9. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yes Warren and you also agree with Joey that the Internet offers very little to our industry. That's quite inaccurate.

    Also note that I think those things are valuable tools. They won't make or break any business nor do I think they are the magic potion that many claim. You would rather use a screw driver than a drill. That's fine with me but making excuses for your preference isn't necessary. You like hand tools and I like power. That is only an issue for you, I don't mind the differences.

    Also you do have a portion of your business computerized. I think I remember seeing a cutlist for your framemaker. Are you considering the time spent on keeping that system functional? What about the time spent on pricing and inventory? Multi orders? Much of what you do in 3 or 4 steps is done in one with a POS. Again, I'm not trying to sell you on it, but I'm not sure you're giving it a fair trial when you tout it's limitaions.
     
  10. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    I guess that they are so successful that they do not need a phone either.

    [​IMG]

    No phone number listed for 50 mile radius of Gilmer TX


    I'm done!
     
  11. DTWDSM

    DTWDSM SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Joey,

    Not trying to one up you but I bet we may both agree on this, any type of artisian group is clicky. Artists generally don't like to take the advice of others and generally do not make good business people. If someone had put in the hours to become a professional at making something, thier way is the correct way.

    *****Disclaimer*****
    Notice I say generally, not trying to offend anyone, I think we can all pretty much agree on this.

    I also will have to agree with J Paul here, as much as the website that you point out, and others like it, that rank other websites are a good tool, most shops in our industry rarely market outside of a 25 mile radius, and that may be pushing it. As far as I know there is not a site/company that will rank a website according to specific demographics such as a target market area. If you know of one I for one would be very interested.

    Don't leave, you seem to be a smart cookie, some here will just try to dunk ya into their milk a little before enjoying.
     
  12. Warren Tucker

    Warren Tucker MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Jerry, you need to watch Talmsi cut mats; she's at least 3 times faster than our Wizard (it's not 11 years old, we update when new ones come out). 99% of the mats we cut we cut from stock. Talmsi whips out a sheet and cuts a mat before most people would get the their computers awake. Really. We're not stupid. We're not that far away;come down here and watch her.
     
  13. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    I'd like to welcome you to the picture framer's grumble forum, Joey.

    The web has been our most effective way to bring customers into the shop, and it's also the least expensive way (less than $50 per YEAR) We ask every new customer how they found us, and note it in our POS system. Greater than 70% say it was the website. Considering the small investment of money and time -- Having a website is a "no brainer", in my opinion.

    Just as I wouldn't run such a business without the organizational and time saving benefits of a POS, CMC, signage, or Vnailer, I wouldn't skip the web presence either.

    Don't let the abrasiveness get you down, they mean well. I for one, appreciate a fresh opinion. This stimulates a healthy and productive discussion, as long as folks can do so in a respectful manner without sinking to personal attacks and snide comments.

    Again... Welcome!

    Mike
    Moderator
    www.getthepictureframing.com
     
  14. Warren Tucker

    Warren Tucker MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Jay, we have an extensive web site; it should tell anyone interested just about everything about us. When I go to a web site, i want to know about the company and mostly I see is a lot of puffery but very little meat. I think ours is all meat.

    We actually looked very closely at POS's and visited businesses with them. None offered what we needed so we wrote our own warehouse program to our needs; that's where the cut list you saw cane from. It tells the frame maker where the moulding is located in our warehouse, how many feet are in stock, how many feet she'll need to make the frame, and what the moulding looks like. She then cuts the frame and makes notes n what she actually saw. At the end of the day she updates the inventory and corrects minor mistakes. We've found that our inventory is accurate to 2 ft. and the inaccuracies are always under counts, we have a little more than the inventory shows. Both stores' computers are connected buy a VPN so a quick glance at the inventory tells whether a moulding is in stock or not.
     
  15. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Warren,
    I have a woman that's been with me for 12 years, that has similar mat cutting skills.

    Having said that, we cut 99 percent of our mats on the Wizard.

    We cut mats by hand for 20 years, but I wouldn't trade the CMC for anything.
     
  16. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    I'll start backwards.

    Jay H., I never said that the Internet doesn't offer much in the way of new business for frame shops. What I did say is that "business card" type websites aren't the best way to use the Internet.

    Surfer Bill, Google 104 Davis Street, Gilmer, Texas and switch to street view. You will see a business with a Heart Shaped Sign up high. That's not us. We are immediately to the right. You will also notice that most if not all of the businesses don't have signs on their bldgs. Anymore. That's thanks to our city council. It was determined it made the town square to gawdy looking. Instead, we have window signs. (And I didn't take the picture). Also, the difference between a custom framer and Art.com is in scale. They sell millions of dollars worth of frames because they have branding recognition and because they have other advantages. Note my comparison between national retailers and the small local shop in my earlier post.

    Jay H., Point taken. But remember too that all I did was ask some questions and make an offer to share in my first post. In fact, if memory serves me right, I think I even defended my reasons by saying I was looking to meet new likeminded people for the purpose of benefical conversation. And I do agree about understanding each other's experiences and motivations, but the key difference here is in the manner those differences are explored. Regarding my real estate comment, that was directed towards one individual who thought it was acceptal social protocal to send me a nasty and derogatory message via my e-mail address. That person knows who they are.

    j. Paul, statistics can certainly be swayed to illustrate different points, but disregard the page rank and look at the traffic volume. That can't be swayed. And for those of you who think that your site analytecs is telling you the truth, you are being misled.

    Jerry, may I ask what your traffic volume looks like as determined by your site analytics. My research showed that you are using about 40 organic keywords most of which deal with printing, trophies and engraving and Charlotte.
     
  17. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Warren, no shop needs to monitor inventory that closely. You see how huge sweeping statements can be so inaccurate depending on the given situation?

    As far as websites, I'm talking about moving the business end of our industry online. It's coming and you have suggested that it will never happen. I call most frameshop's websites, including yours, "business card"* sites. You tell who you are. Getting better at that is like a shoe tying race. It really doesn't get you anywhere. You have to stand up and run. This industry has just begun that process and it will take a while. The first few to do that will retire zillionairs. The next 1000 or so may make a good living. The rest will be writing articles about why you can't sell on the Internet. I only offer history and common sense as my proof.

    *I swear to GOD, I had typed that before Joey posted. See we aren't completely different.
     
  18. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Dang Jerry. It looks like you are doing an EXCELLENT job with your keywords. That describes your business to a "T". I may have you help me with my site if you don't mind. Good job!
     
  19. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    Thanks Tim, like everyone else, I can get tempermental too. If you really want to deal with a tough crowd, try selling custom cabinets to anyone in East Texas. They expect a $60k kitchen for less than a grand and they want you to start on Friday morning and be done by lunch on Saturday.

    I also agree about artisians being less business minded and more focused on their locale than on a national scale. This has been my point all along. Most people readily accept what is told them. Take the Internet for example. The concensus is that everyone needs to be on the Internet. Likewise the consensus is that on the Internet you can be whatever you want to be because all you have to do is hire a web programmer to build you a pretty site and wallah, you are in business. Finally, what ends up happening is that you sink a couple of grand in a website and nothing happens. Then these same programmers sell you on add-in services like SEO or keyword optimzation or traffic generation tools.

    My contention is there is an easy (translated better and almost free) way of getting the results you want. It all deals with problem statements. It stands to reason that if you are aware of the problems your customers are searching for and you provide the answers to those problems (instead of pretty "look at me" stuff), then you will get those customers. Location doesn't matter because if you are consistently answering your customers questions, when someone in your area poses the same question (and they will), they will see your answer too and buy from you.

    As I said in one of my initial posts, I came here not be a knowitall but to exchange ideas and meet people because I'm spending a lot of time in my office anymore. One of my websites is dedicated to putting the construction trades back to work. (tradecubate.com) I spend most of my time talking with people who are out of work and depressed when I would rather be in the shop banging on something or sharing ideas about how to do something better. By the way, I like your analogy about the cookie and milk. I don't pretend to have all the answers but I do know how to make money at this.

    Oh, and Alexa will and can provide the market/demographics you seek. Not picking on Jerry, but since his information is easily obtainable on the web using free tools, you could remove NC/Charlotte/ and maybe engraving from his keyword list and his site would completely disappear off the radar.

    Let me get off here. The west coast is waking up now and I will be busy in California for awhile this morning. But I do want to leave you with this thought. If you were to use my problem statement scenario and take say the top five problems that we all know customers are looking for and write separate html pages that answer those questions (including putting the question as the title of the page) and then just putting those pages on your server without necessarily creating a link to any other part of your site other than an order page, what do you think that would do for your traffic and sales.

    In other words, take a problem, form a question about that problem, answer that problem and then provide the visitor with a way to solve that problem immediately (through the use of an order form), would that increase your sales if every time someone typed in that problem, your solution was staring them in the face. I'll be back later. Phones are ringing again.
     
  20. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    I guess I don't understand the graph on that site, cause it looks to me that I have almost no traffic. According to the reports from my host, I have averaged about 365 new visitors per month. Would I like more, yea! But I am OK with that for my little frame shop selling locally. (We have only the last few months started offering art by one particual artist for sale over the web)
     
  21. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    I don't put much faith or trust in Alexa's results, but do for the statistics showing who is ACTUALLY coming to my site. This gives an accurate snapshot of search engine crawl visits, regular visitors, and what site referred them to us. The buck stops here, as the final destination. :) This info is compiled by my ISP/web server, because it knows when someone visits.

    The Alexa Toolbar is rarely used by anyone, and many popular a/v programs identify it as "spyware" and block or remove it. (because it was calling back to Alexa and reporting web usage statistics that they compile) It had a lot of weight, up until about 5 years ago. Granted, this is no longer their ONLY source of data - but I still question the validity of Alexa.

    One thing I agree with completely is that we should make our sites "appealing" for the particular searches our potential customers are likely to use. This includes keeping it "local", if that is the goal. (bringing in locals, vs selling nationally)

    Mike
     
  22. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Nicely played Joey. Everyone here knows that I have an extensive real estate and mortgage background. I was also one of your critics who simply saw tactics that you were using trying to proliferate whatever it is that you are pushing. Your statement to divide me from the civil ranks would have worked if I had not come back to see what was next.

    Now I would like to know who you are telling to go back to real estate. Also you are so far out of touch that you actually stated that the real estate market was doing well. Do you remember the housing recession of the early nineties, we are way past that and have only begun the downhill slide.

    NLP would be something you could sell to real estate agents so they can see themselves making the sale. Once they have that outcome all of the real estate market will turn around.

    You have stated a blatant lie here by insinuating that I contacted you in any manner and that is the next thing you should address. What is your motive in this falsehood.
     
  23. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    j Paul,

    Most hosts use sampling when reporting stats back to their customers. If your site is on a shared server, your host provided numbers are useless. (I don't mean to sound gruff but its a sad truth) If your site is on a dedicated server (meaning more expensive) then your stats are still inaccurate because of sampling. I wish I had more time to explain, but kind of busy right now. But I will later tonight if you are interested in the why behind the how.
     
  24. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    Jeff,

    Were you the one that sent me that e-mail? Because if you are, I'll come by your shop when I'm in Myrtle Beach next month and we can discuss it face to face.

    Everyone knows that real estate is in the tank right now unless you have the money to buy it and what is NLP?

    Have I contacted anyone on this board in private or any other manner and tried to push or sell anything to anyone? I don't think so. Jeff, you really need to lighten up a bit. Did we go to school together in SC? We're both the same age. I was also in the Marines down at Parris Island back in the 70s. Did we cross paths then and there? Why so much animosity towards me? I don't get it.

    That really gets my goat to be called a liar! I didn't name names because I didn't know who sent it. And I haven't pushed anything. I've made a couple of suggestions like sharing the three ways I know any business can make money. Add new customers, charge more, or get existing customers to buy more frequently. I've also shared my thoughts on market research under the premise of seeing what others are doing.

    So what is the problem Jeff?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2009
  25. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Joey, I am impressed that you are till here after taking all the heat from us. You're very persistent. And speaking of persistence, maybe you are up for a challenge!

    The poster from this thread Persistence, could use the services you are promoting to us in this thread. Maybe if you can help him we will take you more seriously. (And be jealous that he got the help before us!)
     
  26. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    Joey,

    Maybe it would be more effective if you started a page on your blog sharing the information you have for us picture framers, and let people leave comments there. I'd contribute to such a blog and I'm sure others would as well.

    But still stick around here and keep contributing, and ease into the board in a little mellower way.
     
  27. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God


    Now that sounds like a threat to me.

    This thread should go away IMHO
     
  28. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    Hi Bob,

    For starters, I think I would head over to the courthouse where they issue marriage licenses and leave some brochures or cards on the counter. You may get some resistance from the court clerk, but not if you bring an example like a framed certificate or here's a thought.

    Since many country governments participate in charities or special events, why not offer to give the department proceeds or a portion of the proceeds from the sale of that initial frame? There is more sales to be gleaned like the wedding photos, the honeymoon, the first child, etc.

    As for cold calling, it carries with it the same premise as a "business card" web site. Unless they are looking for what you are peddling at the same time that you are offering it, you will get a lot of rejection. Very similar to what I'm getting here.

    On the other hand, if you close the shop, and take a walk around town, go into places and introduce yourself. Make contact with people and ask key questions of the person you come into contact with and then follow up regularly, you will fare better. What is that question and what does regularly mean? Where did you buy that frame from? Who bought it? Don't forget to compliment what's in the frame too. Regularly to me means weekly for the first month, biweekly for the second and monthly thereafter, on all special occasions and weekly for the first month after the sale. It's all about rapport. I guess that's why I'm so longwinded. In my little community of 6500 people, we all know each other. We have one high school, one junior high and one elementary. We have 4 churches and two restaurants. Getting to know people is what its all about.
     
  29. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    That's probably a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion because this other stuff has gotten very old.

     
  30. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    Jerry,

    No threat. Anyone that knows me knows that I'm the least threatening guy in a crowd. Back in the day as a former marine and police officer, I was injured pretty severely. The joke around my house is that I've been cut completely in two on more than one occasion what with the surgeries and all. But I never back down from giving a bully my opinions when warranted.

    I've been to your shop. Its a nice shop. The lady was very friendly and helpful. I have a large extended family in Myrtle Beach and I visit them often. Many of them have purchased from you and I've never heard anything other than good things about your shop.

    As for deleting this thread, I agree. Delete it. It's a waste of good bandwidth and I for one can't believe I've allowed myself to be drawn into a schoolyard argument. I certainly wouldn't want the general public to see my name associated with these rants.

    {Jerry, I've never been to your shop! I misread your name as Jeff.}
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2009
  31. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Your statement was made and directed toward me to give the appearance that I have attacked you. I have not contacted you in any way and with your web knowledge you know there is no anonymous e-mail.

    So now you are accusing someone here of trashing you in an e-mail and hiding their identity. That's another problem.

    We have never met with the exception of the time you said you were in my store but I'm sorry that I don't recall that meeting. If you tell me what you bought I will remember though.
     
  32. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    OK, let's just cut to the chase.

    Problem statement: I have some art (or a photograph), and I need a frame for it.

    Solution statement, provided by my website and my retail store: We have a large selection of frames and mats, and can create something that will fit your art.

    Secondary problem statement: How do I pick the right frame, and how do I know it will look nice?

    Secondary solution statement: I do this all day long, and I have many many satisfied customers. You can look at my business card website and see examples of my work, and you can read reviews of my store at Yelp.com, a website.

    There, was that so friggin' hard?
     
  33. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Perhaps you may want to dig a little deeper into the G archives. We have discussed networking 10,000 times. This group has moved well beyond the benefits of this to polishing the delivery/opportunities. Maybe that's what you're actually doing but it seems different?

    We have also long discredited the value of giving away framing as an advertising means. It's not unanimous but darn close.

    I remember paying like $60 to take a class that offered Earth shattering advice like “clean your windows” and “have an open sign”. I needed some alone time to defuse after that money pit of a class. “Go talk to people” is similar advice but hey this is free so that's a plus.
     
  34. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    When Virgin America started up operations here a year or so ago and hired a CEO, there was an article about him in the paper. I framed it up nicely and dropped it off at Virgin's HQ. I did the same thing for the CEO and President of Visa International when it had its IPO last year. The CEO of Virgin wrote me a nice thank you note, and I never heard diddly from the guys at Visa.

    A couple of weeks ago, I took in a job for Virgin. I asked the person who brought it to me if she had heard about my store through the CEO. She said no, she found me on the internet.

    But hey, what do I know, my average ticket is only $220.
     
  35. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    Love your posts here, Paul!! :beer:
     
  36. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    I wasn't asking fro me, I was asking for the writer of a different thread. Please, I would take you more seriously if you posted in other threads, not just your own. I feel like you are here only for yourself, not for us, no matter how loudly you protest otherwise. I was giving you a chance to show that you are interested in other people's thoughts ideas and problems. You have shown that this thread is the only one important to you. Not great at networking?
     
  37. DTWDSM

    DTWDSM SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Ok I will start since this series of questions were never answered

    Demographics F 58% M 42%

    Age, don't ask people but I market primarily to 25-55yr old

    Location: roughly 80% within 25 mile radius, 20% outside 25 miles

    Reasons for buying Home Decor and gifts

    Frequency of purchase: .68 times a year. This was determined by taking my number of customers in 2008 divided by my database of customers who have purchased in the past 5 years.

    Average Aquisitioal Cost, using your equation, $87.57

    What can you tell me and if you want, feel free to PM me or post here, your choice.
     
  38. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    Let's see, close my shop so I'm not there when a customer comes in so I can walk around town and introduce myself to all of the people I already know and already do framing for to ask them to do framing with me and give them a free framed piece so that way they won't need to come in to get something framed because I already gave it to them for free.

    Yeah, that works.:faintthud:

    So many of us have moved so far beyond networking 101.
    .. and your example of the school athletic department spending that much money for framing is DEFINITELY not the norm. In fact, I feel pretty safe to say that it could be classified as an aberration.

    Where is this fantastic free information touted so exuberantly in the first post 9 pages ago?
    How about just posting it and get this over with.
    So far, in 9 pages of postings here, i haven't seen anything in the way of really doing what you said you wanted to do when you originally posted.
    If you would just stop beating around the bush and actually do it, then you might not have all of this skepticism being lobbed your way.

    If not, then, yeah I'd say it's time for you to move on and bother some other site.
     
  39. HangingAroundHoover

    HangingAroundHoover MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    QUOTE=joeylowe;447089]j Paul,

    Most hosts use sampling when reporting stats back to their customers. If your site is on a shared server, your host provided numbers are useless. (I don't mean to sound gruff but its a sad truth) If your site is on a dedicated server (meaning more expensive) then your stats are still inaccurate because of sampling. I wish I had more time to explain, but kind of busy right now. But I will later tonight if you are interested in the why behind the how.[/QUOTE]

    So you are saying all stats i get from my host are inaccurate, that's kind of a blanket statement, don't you think? I bet if you go to my website from this link www.hangingaroundhoover.com my host will repot that it came from the G, the time you spent on each page and if you return. Is there a better reporting system than that?
     
  40. joeylowe

    joeylowe Grumbler

    I understand. If I may explain myself. I feel like I've been cornered into this thread and must explain myself and then all the regulars must investigate me and poke sticks to see if I'm a real person when all I did was make a simple observation, ask a couple of questions and reply with a long winded answer. Quite frankly, I'm gunshy about posting to other threads for fear of being overwhelmed by attacks there too. But I've made my decision to stop posting here. It's not worth the stress.

    There were a couple of posts above that I'll reply to here instead of taking time to reply to each one individually. Discussing and doing networking are two separate things. I never promoted giving something away for the sake of giving it away thinking that it would come back tenfold. If you send a free frame or placque to someone like the CEO of Virgin and they respond with a thank you card, what did you do next? Did immediately call and tell them you got the card and would like to come by and show them your wares or did you sit back and wait for them to send you business?

    I never claimed to have an original save-all method and I certainly didn't try to sell anyone anything. I'm sure everyone here has heard about Social Media Marketing and how great it can be for your business. It is, but its nothing more than good old fashioned networking. Bottom line is that everyone gets lucky sometimes but if you want repeat business, you got to first build relationships.

    As for Jeff and his unbelievable criticism, I just don't understand it. Jeff, I never accused you of sending that email. I never said I was a computer whiz so in my mind there is such a thing as fake or anonymus emails.

    Jerry, I sent you a private message with all the details you have been trying unsuccessfully to uncover.

    Mike (Moderator) I agree on every point you made except the one about Alexa. Like every tool it too has its limitations but it is still a useful tool. Please do whatever you need to do to close or omit this thread and cancel my account. Thanks!
    Everyone here have a very nice day.
     
  41. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Framah, my wife works in a school and they are talking about forced furlough days. The current thought is two days unpaid. I bet she would be so happy to hear that the sports department just dropped $6K on frames! Not gonna happen in these times. Especially since the sports departments in Maine are talking about cutting down the number of games played and increasing the fees to play. Athletes are already buying their game shirts. So the departmewnts must be crawling with disposable income!
     
  42. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Joey,
    I guess I'm more confused that ever.
    I googled your address and I found Picture This, called the number and got a generic recording that did not name the store.

    I did talk to the nice lady that owns Lou's Gift Shop three doors down from 104 Davis St. and she said the photographer that was there closed a while back.

    In fact, she said many of the businesses on that street are closed.
    Maybe that's why they don't have signs up, because they are closed??

    Could there be another 104 Davis St in Gilmer, TX ???

    Inquiring minds want to know.
     
  43. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Joey, I did not follow up with a phone call to the CEO of the airline. I didn't do it because (1), the likelihood of getting an actual appointment to "show him my wares" is slim to none, and (2) I find cold-calling to be an extreme annoyance, and I'm sure others do too.

    I get cold-called a dozen times a week, and it's a waste of my time. As is this thread.
     
  44. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob... I know!!! We can all sponsor the sports teams with our business name on the shirt. I'm sure THAT'LL get us alot of business, eh?
    That ranks right up there with advertising in a weekly newspaper.
     
  45. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I just got a nice b-mail from Joey, and he said he is going to take the advice of a couple of Grumblers and not post for a while.

    I wished him luck in his business dealings.

    Unless something new comes up, this will be my last post in this thread.
     
  46. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    Joey, I am maybe still being too skeptical but I found this tidbit on one of your sites,

    "Last month, I posted a form on my blog that offered a Free Sales Landing Page to the first 100 subscribers. I publicized this offer through various mediums including Twitter, Google and forums. "

    Not discounting the Free Advice that may come along the way, it still seems to me that the ultimate goal is to get publicity that gets people to your website, where they do become customers and BUY SOMETHING!
     
  47. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Also anybody that clicked his links helped his rankings. The Grumble is an incredibly high ranked site so the goal was to get referrals from the G to help his website standings.
     
  48. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    I've noticed that there are certain "types" of salesmen.

    One type is the One-Size-Fits-All. These guys are usually consultants, and they've developed something they think is really great and innovative, and they push that as the solution to all your problems, no matter what your problems are. It's their patented approach, and they are going to shove it down your throat, because One Size Fits All. For example, they might have come up with a notion like "People come to you with problem statements." It sounds really innovative and complex, but in truth it's quite simple and pedestrian. It's "needs." Customers need something. Customers want something. But calling those needs or wants "problem statements" justifies the $400/hour these One Size Fits All consultants are charging you to help you address "problem statements." It's like saying "utilize" instead of "use." Sounds so much fancier.

    Another type is the PITA. They annoy the carp out of you, droning on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on, wearing you down and annoying you to the point where you just want to buy something to make them go away, finally, please, just go away and leave me alone.

    I think we've got a combo of both these types.
     
  49. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Something about all this is giving me deja vu, and not in a good way. Some eerie similarities to some past threads. Anyone else have that same feeling?
     
  50. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yep now that you mentioned it.
     
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