I say we ban the term, "Gallery Wrap" from our vocabulary!

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I call them "stretched canvas".
 
Framerguy said:
Hmmmm, not opposed to the technique??

Well, ya sure had me fooled!!!!:shrug:
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I don't think that Paul's other comments are necessarily out of sync. with his previous statement. Calling them "gallery wrap" suggests that, that is the proper and finished presentation, and putting that into the mind set of the customer is what can cause framers to loose work.

Yes the framer can make money doing the gallery wrap (float frame wrap) but he/she will make more money doing a wrap / liner / frame combination.
 
Well, I took the phrase "If I seem a bit hostile toward this technique, ......" to indicate some kind of opposition to the "technique" but I see now that this means that he was in full agreement with the technique but not the term.

I sincerely apologize if I mis-interpreted his statements.

(Yup, that's what it was and I meant every word of it.)
 
But, Framerguy, you said it in green.....and were your fingers crossed, young man?? If you truly mean to convince us, maybe you should say it again in blue.:p
 
Sell them a museum wrap or a gallery wrap at a 30% premium and then put it in a frame for them. Not every one want there piece framed, why not get them for all they are worth---- lets not leave dollars on the counter---- if the customer wants to give them up I'm there to take them and thankyou very much. I'm in business to make money and to satisfy my customers, if I can do both at the same time I'm going for it.
 
Framerguy said:
Well, I took the phrase "If I seem a bit hostile toward this technique, ......" to indicate some kind of opposition to the "technique" but I see now that this means that he was in full agreement with the technique but not the term.

I sincerely apologize if I mis-interpreted his statements.

(Yup, that's what it was and I meant every word of it.)
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Framerguy, no offense take. We need more people like you here.

I tend to cut people some slack here, especially when they are big enough to acknowledge there mistakes. I got flamed by a tent sale framer with a chip on the shoulder about a week ago - talk about the ultimate insult.

My sense of humor is a bit dry usually. This can lead to misunderstandings. I recognize this. Keep posting, I enjoy your stuff.
 
Let's get to the real issue

I think that just about everyone here has missed the real issue, which is how do we convince customers that gallery wraps are not the end point for the artwork -- that a frame is still required. I've had customers come in and refer to the stretcher (or strainer) bars as "the frame." So aside from the issues of how do we make more money, or what looks better, why is a gallery wrap not enough? Why is a frame, even a float frame, required? That's the question we need to address.

I've told customers that the frame is required to provide proper hanging support on the wall, that just looping a wire from one stretcher bar to another puts undue stress on the stretcher bars. The metaphor I provide is that of someone trying to do chin-ups by themselves, as opposed to having a big burly guy with a beard, wearing an Hawaiian shirt, boosting them up by the waist as they do their chin-ups. And I might mention that a proper frame will help prevent the canvas from going out of square.

So, for those of you with way more experience than me (which is all of you), am I saying the right things? Have I left something crucial out, or am I misrepresenting the rationales?

Or is this just about money and design?
 
Dave said:
...Displaying a painting without a frame should be considered a temporary method until a proper frame is affordable and chosen. Just assume that this is the norm and convey that to the customer. Don't even suggest that displaying an unframed painting is an acceptable method of display ...only a temporary situation ...much like thumbtacking a photo on a bulletin board or matting the photo and sticking a sticky hook on the back with acetate or mylar wrap. Eventually the piece deserves "proper framing".

...

Dave Makielski
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Paul, I'm quoting myself from a past post on this thread because I think this is the way to approach things as a framer.

Dave Makielski
 
Dave said:
Paul, I'm quoting myself from a past post on this thread because I think this is the way to approach things as a framer.

Dave Makielski
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Yes, but why is this so? Did I get the reasoning correct? Have I been saying the right things? The problem is, people see these canvases displayed without frames in galleries, and they think (or are told) that a frame isn't necessary.
 
I don't know about the big burly Hawaiian guy analogy :D, but yes, I believe your point about stress of the stretchers is valid.

(I do Baerly see your point though.)

As far as other reasons to frame a canvas ...purely aesthetic. A frame enhances the art, creating a border between the artwork and the outside world.

A frame, chosen with a good eye for design, draws you into the painting and gives the artwork a prominence within the environment in which it resides.

Maybe a better analogy would be to compare God's most beautiful creation, the body...much more alluring when there is a smidgen of fabric than when totally undraped ...IMHO.



Dave Makielski
 
Just remember to rush forward and tell a customer who brings in a *%&#$@% wrapped canvas that we better hurry and get that naked thing covered up!



:smileyshot22:


Dave Makielski
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Good analogy, Dave! :icon19:

Paul, another good reason to frame a canvas is for protection of it. A good example of that came in last week. Framed canvas came in for a new frame (new clothes!). It had been moved around a lot lately, and the frame was pretty beat up....but the painting was in good shape, even though it was unglazed and unprotected from the back. Imagine what shape it would've been in, had it been only %$@**!-wrapped! The frame helped protect it, the edges, at least, from the lumps and bumps.
 
Y'all are so unsure of what you are talking about that you can't seem to recognize when somebody is serious and when they are being sarcastic!! I doubt that many of you have actuallly done enough gallery wraps to be able to speak to their benefits or faults in terms of making a profit or not on them. And, if you have, then you seem to be blind to the profit dollar that is attached to doing them. Prior to my present job I may have done a dozen gallery wraps in 18 years. I wouldn't be naive enough to even voice an opinion on that basis of jobs as I probably wouldn't remember from one to the next which was which or what I made on any of them. But I have done almost 10 times that many in the last year and I know from that recent experience and from selling these directly to my customers how much there is to be made in net profit from them and how many actually leave the gallery with or without frames.

There seems to be 2 outstanding things about gallery wraps that most who have posted here dislike, the fact that they appear "unfinished" or "naked" and the fact that they traditionally are housed in a float frame which many have voiced an opposition to. But the fact of the matter is that most gallery wraps carry a 50% or higher gross profit margin when done inhouse on an unmounted canvas and the profit margin on the float frame can be anywhere from 3.5 to 4.5 gross margin depending on how you mark up your mouldings. I have seen many of you same people argue how you are so dedicated to serving your customers and how the appearances of what you like are always secondary to what the customer wants but you are very staunch in your stand against doing gallery wraps. This begs the question WHY?? Do you not see the profit in doing them?? Or don't you like the name attached to them?? Who the heck cares what they are called anyway??? It seems like many of you are arguing way past the terminology and are injecting personal feelings into the pot.

I don't like the term "non glare" used to describe a certain type of glass. But if a customer comes in and tells me that they want "non glare" glass in their framing, I don't tell them that they don't make it anymore and I can't get it!! I put "reflection control" glass in their framing and deposit the profit from that piece of glass in the bank with the rest of the gross receipts!!

I personally don't like the appearances of a gallery wrap!! But I'll be durned if I am going to shoot myself in the foot for the sake of appearances when there is a profit to be made in doing them!! As I said so strongly in a prior post, you can send me all of those nasty naked gallery wrap jobs that y'all don't want to soil your hands with and I'll do them and thank you very much.
 
Framerguy, I've done 3 or 4 in the year I've been open -- exclusively for a customer that had bought some gallery-wrapped paintings in Africa, but shipped them home unmounted. He wanted them re-mounted on the same size stretcher bars. So I did it for him. Nobody else has requested gallery wraps.

I don't have separate prices for gallery wraps vs. any other kind of canvas mounting. In my POS, there's just a charge for "stretching canvas including bars," based on united inch. If I recall correctly, the charge for a 36x48 canvas is about $180. I would love to be as profitable on gallery wraps as I can be, same as any other framing job. Is my regular stretching charge too low for what I should charge for a 36x48 gallery wrap, in your experience?

I should add, I now order true stretcher bars from Foster Planing Mill for stretching all canvases, rather than gluing and v-nailing strainer bar stock. That probably raises my costs a bit.
 
This wretched look has also caught on big time here in Australia.

My personal term for it is "blockmounting" as it reduces the presentation to the level of a cheap, poster which you blockmount for the kids because you know they will be over it in a couple of months.

If a picture is big and bold enough I suppose it is just acceptable but on small pieces it just looks cheap and lets the pic get lost on the wall. My favourite is the customer who comes in with a 12" x 18" canvas with barely an inch of border and asks to ave it stretched with hidden staples.:shrug:
 
PaulSF said:
I don't have separate prices for gallery wraps vs. any other kind of canvas mounting. In my POS, there's just a charge for "stretching canvas including bars,"
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Paul, you should think of changing your POS so the charge is for stretching alone & the bars (or "support") are a seperate charge.
I definately go along with the sentiments that a frames function is to provide a "space" for the work within the enviornment it is displayed & to protect the artwork. I believe this is true for all artwork. That concept doesn't change because of the way a canvas is stretched. Whether or not you can get a given customer to go along with that is another matter all together. If all they want is the stretch I don't think anyone here is suggesting they wouldn't do it.
 
Dave said:
...
Maybe a better analogy would be to compare God's most beautiful creation, the body...much more alluring when there is a smidgen of fabric than when totally undraped ...IMHO.



Dave Makielski
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We could possibly educate our customers that another reason to frame the canvas is to cover the "stretch marks"!

:faintthud:

Dave Makielski
 
Terry Hart cpf said:
Paul, you should think of changing your POS so the charge is for stretching alone & the bars (or "support") are a seperate charge.
I definately go along with the sentiments that a frames function is to provide a "space" for the work within the enviornment it is displayed & to protect the artwork. I believe this is true for all artwork. That concept doesn't change because of the way a canvas is stretched. Whether or not you can get a given customer to go along with that is another matter all together. If all they want is the stretch I don't think anyone here is suggesting they wouldn't do it.
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Terry, I do have a "stretching" charge that does not include stretcher bars. My guess is that is for restretching a canvas where the bars are already present. I have yet to encounter a situation where I've not needed to provide the stretcher bars.
 
I figure Ikea-wrap, is "ready to frame"

we sell the transition L moulding alot more now -add it to any canvas 'Ikeawrap' before the frame and you have sold another, all be it cheap, frame
 
PaulSF said:
Terry, I do have a "stretching" charge that does not include stretcher bars. ... I have yet to encounter a situation where I've not needed to provide the stretcher bars.
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Don't you use different types of bars? We offer a bunch of different options. What Framerguy is saying is that the gallery wrap bar is the upgrade in price. Or is that your base price?
 
Terry,

My stretching charges don't distinguish between the different kinds of bars, although there is a noticeable jump at a certain UI level -- that takes into account that the larger sizes are using heavier duty bars which cost more. I suppose in cases where I do a gallery wrap, and have to order those amazing end caps that snap on over the stretcher bars, I should add a surcharge to account for the additional cost.

But to carry forward the example I gave a few comments earlier, my charge to stretch a 36x48 canvas, including bars, is $188. The cost of the 3-inch stretcher bars, with cross supports and shipping, from my supplier (the nice folks at Foster Planing Mill) is about $70. That leaves about $118 to cover my labor and overhead on the job. It probably takes me about an hour to successfully assemble the bars and stretch the canvas (I'll be putting that to the test a little later today), and my labor fee is $60/hour.
 
'naked art' from 'starving artist' wrapped by a 'transition frame' or, 'liberate the art' and go 'frameless' but make sure you 'charge extra' for the 'frameless look'. So is that like the Emperior's New Clothes?
 
Baer Charlton said:
I can't believe I'm using "him" as an example.

jwilk, lets take the one artist in our lifetime that goes head to head with Donald Trump.....

The one thing you will never see in Thomas Kinkade gallery is a "Gallery Wrap". It may be the biggest schlock in the world... but it sells, and you have to admit.... the frames are never cheap or chintzy.
A "cheap" TK is the 500 piece puzzle.... until I put a $300 frame on it.
So maybe it's the $25 coffee mug... until you stick it in the cup holder of your $57,000 TK LTD Edition Explorer.

Gallery wrap is the height of conceit by an artist.... it basically says "I am the end-all be-all".
As for float frames... I find them to be little more than crate strapping, which is what it was when it first came into play in the 50s. At least the Dadaist had a reason for the wide white board.
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I waited 13 years just to come here and post this: https://thomaskinkade.com/product-category/gallery-wrapped-canvas/gallery-wraps-all/
 
How about Naked Wrap - it looks is totally unfinished. I heard the term Gallery Wrap started by starving artist that were just squeaking by selling their art at art shows. Personally, I do a lot of Gallery Wraps and I haven't found one yet that I think looks finished. But I do make money with Gallery Wraps because I charge just about double to stretch them, so call it what you want and I will still consider it Naked Wrap unfinished art.

Float Frame Wrap works for me if Naked Wrap won't work :rolleyes:
 
PennsylvaniaBeetFramer said:
I waited 13 years just to come here and post this: https://thomaskinkade.com/product-category/gallery-wrapped-canvas/gallery-wraps-all/
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HAHAHAHAHA! This is awesome. :beer:

Here's your prize:

trophy 13 online.jpg
 
prospero said:
Ultra-Minimalist Frames. 🙂
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I just stretched about 35 of those "Ultra-Minimalist" canvases this week.:help:
Some went into Floater frames and some went with no frames.
We do a ton of them.

On many of these that don't get floater frames, we are required by the designers to paint the sides dark grey or black.
They are usually stretched on 2" bars and are for commercial installations.
Some of these "Ultra-Minimalist" canvases are printed with a mirror image that is wrapped over the sides and we don't have to paint anything.
 
"plain wrap"
"sans frame wrap"
 
I have removed the canvas and ripped down a three incher to a one incher and restreached.
It was a bass wood, nicely made stretcher and looked great when done.

I also had a cheap but large canvas (two incher, belonged to me).
I cut it down by stapling along the edge and ripping away........without taking the canvas off. 🤫 Turned out great.
 
The original idea was to continue the painting around the sides of the canvas. A bit gimmicky, but why not? 🙄

But many ready-made blank canvases are deep (and cheap) and artists use them because of their cheapness,
never intending the the finished work to be displayed sans frame. They bring them along to be framed. Many
is the canvas I have had to re-stretch on shallower bars to slim it down. Which wipes out any saving they might
have made. If only artists would consider the 'craft' as well as the 'art'.
 
I find nothing wrong with gallery wraps as long as a client puts a nice floater frame on it. In fact I like the minimalistic look and find it quite easy to sell them a nice water gilded float frame. I also like the look.

I tell my customers hanging a gallery wrap in an office or industrial environment is perfectly fine, but in a home? It gives me the opportunity to talk frame history about how a frame protects and contains the painting and is so much warmer.

We are now showing over a hundred floater mouldings and I still find I need more.
 
Dave said:
I find nothing wrong with gallery wraps as long as a client puts a nice floater frame on it. In fact I like the minimalistic look and find it quite easy to sell them a nice water gilded float frame. I also like the look.

I tell my customers hanging a gallery wrap in an office or industrial environment is perfectly fine, but in a home? It gives me the opportunity to talk frame history about how a frame protects and contains the painting and is so much warmer.

We are now showing over a hundred floater mouldings and I still find I need more.
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Like you, Dave, we do many gallery wraps that go into Floater frames.
The design company that we work with likes the gallery wrapped canvases to be raised up in the floater frames with a 1/8" drop from the front of the frame and with about 3/16" reveal between the floater face and the canvas.

Because the canvases are close to the front of the floater, a gallery wrap is needed so no staples are visible on the sides.
 
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The canvases can always be re-stretched to be shallower but those wooden panel boxes that are 2 " deep, not so much. Also dislike some of the "boxes" which are being made with very narrow strainers; I try to avoid floaters for them when I can. Even pre-drilling pilot holes gives me the willies in case I'm off a bit and damage the box sides.
 
Here is an Ultra-Minimalist in a floater that I did for a very high end restaurant in Scottsdale.
It's a restaurant that specializes in seafood although they also do steaks and other things.
We also did their other restaurant that specializes in steaks.
It's supposed to be an old fisherman..
Some people say it looks like me...:shutup:
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We also did all of the other installations in this restaurant..

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The kitchen..
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We do tons of gallery wraps like this for restaurants, hospitals, offices , etc.
If you don't like them and don't want to do them, send them to us and our designers,
I could post hundreds of Ultra-Minimalist canvases in floaters that we've done, we don't mind doing them.
 
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I set up my wide format printing business around the gallery wrap and it is very profitable I must say. Sounds like you have more issues with the process then what it is called. It is all about having the right equipment. We have an advantage as we print and laminate all the prints. That takes a big load of pressure off of someone that just does the stretching like you. You mess up a print and you must go back to the source for another. Not sure I would be to interested in that game either. We have an amish shop that makes our custom stretcher bars in three sizes at a great price.Then the proper equipment for cutting and stretching. Dual miter saw, underpinned, Hoffmann dovetailer and a good machine for stretching. We have a 60" gallery stretcher.
You don't want to do them send them our way, always looking for more work..
 
This is so funny.
A thirteen year-old zombie thread has never gotten so much play. :popc:
 
Paul Cascio said:
This "Gallery Wrap" thing is BS and it's costing us a lot of money. Just when we almost eradicate the word "laminate" as a verb, "Gallery Wrap" comes along.

I say we call it "Flea Market Wrap," or "Hotel-Motel Art Sale Wrap," or "Fish Wrapped" or better yet, "Too Cheap To Frame It Wrap."

Using the word "Gallery" is just a horrible idea that implies a level of quality that is totally opposite of what it is.

Who's the crook who came up with this term? I'll bet it wasn't a framer. It was probably the same person who came up with "Faux Diamond" or "Faux" anything.

Let's all take a vow to stop using this term "Gallery Wrap" effective immediately. I say we go with "Dormatory Wrap" because that's the only place where such a form of display is acceptable.

All who agree, say "Aye."
All who want to kill me...
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I have a question then. I have never bought a painting before. I recently saw an oil painting that I absolutely love. It's not "fine art", I will just say that right now. But I fell in love with it regardless. It would not be any sort of investment, like some art. It truly is a "match my color scheme" type of painting. But for whatever reason, it hit my heart and I am thinking of buying it. The artist told me he would charge me 400 dollars for it. And he said, it's "400 dollars, as is, Gallery wrapped no framing needed". I'm curious if ultimately it matters that I'd be getting Gallery wrapped since I am quite aware that what I'm buying is something that , like I said, isn't "fine art". Am I still getting the shaft? Should I ask for real framing, even if that ends up making it more expensive? I honestly don't know what I'm doing, and 400 dollars is a LOT of money for me. I understand you can't give me an actual value of the painting without knowing a lot more information. I'm just curious about the Gallery Wrap issue.
 
To me, gallery wraps are fine. The quality of printing, the longevity of pigments, and the stretching have all improved greatly since the original post.
 
I, too, do not like "gallery wraps". I used to refer to them as "K-Mart wraps". Artists embraced the idea in droves- mainly, I suspect because it was cheap and meant they could sell their works "complete and ready to hang". It also played into the idea of minimalism which, sadly, still seems to be big today n the art world.

My main beef with it is that many artists used extra thick stretchers which meant that if a customer did want a frame the canvas would have to be re- stretched as most frames lacked the rebate depth to take them.

As to Addy Coaches' question - So long as the canvas is good, the paint is sound and you like the artwork the only question is are you prepared to pay the asking price? If so, it is good value.
 
Moulding vendors have responded well over the past several years and there is a now a plenitude of floater styles that fit gallery wraps. Customers are much more familiar with the concept than they were in the past and there is considerably less price resistance. We don't mind them at all and frame lots of them.

🚨We also print, canvas wrap and sell images that we have created with AI. 🚨
 
I personally don't care for the gallery wrap. It makes sense if images are painted on the outside (extending the painting) but other than that, it serves very little purpose. (except for the artist selling it and saving the price of a frame, which I completely understand)

I would just pay the $400 and decide if you might like it framed after but you don't have to do it right away. For an original oil (what size is it?) it is not a bad price.
'fine art' is a term that I never truly pay attention to. Art is personal. When you feel a connection to the art, that is all that counts.
I doubt the artist is going to frame it for that price. Plus, you want to make sure you actually like the frame (and in general; don't trust artists to pick out the perfect frame)

Ask a professional framer in your area for framing recommendations if you don't like the gallery wrap look.
 
Welcome Addy Coaches,
As a person in the industry for some 40 years I have learned that you cannot satisfy everyone with the goods and services that we offer. In my day, I have stretched canvases with the art on the side of the stretcher bars (gallery wrap); however most were stretched without the art bleeding over the sides of the bars.

Not being an art historian my best guess is that the practice of artists that was originally from the 50's or 60's as a way to cut costs or eliminate of picture framing with their room sized paintings.

The option to frame or not frame is a subjective one that everyone will not agree upon.

Yes, there are two major uses for a picture frame, visual and protective. The disadvantage of a frameless painting is that it is not protected from damage of the collision of people or things against the sides.
 
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