In Line Ovals came through for us!!!!

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There is no right or wrong, it's banter, that is all.
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I respectfully disagree. There is 'wrong' when the disagreements turn to personal attacks. Hasn't quite happened on this thread yet, but we're walking a thin line.

All the other on line forums in our industry are way to tightly controlled to give you much of a feel for anything, other than the subject at hand.
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The PPFA online exchange (HH) is pretty tightly moderated. With the email format, it has to be or it would quickly become overwhelming for everyone involved.

The other framers' forums I have visited are essentially unmoderated. Everyone is free to call anyone else any names they like and belittle and ridicule them 'til the cows come in. I don't think even you would enjoy them, John.

Besides that, The Grumble is just plain fun.
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On that we can agree, John. In the interest of keeping it fun, I think I'll personally stop taunting Cornel by mentioning Inline Ovals in inappropriate places. They are mentioned often enough in a legitimate context, like your initial post here.
 
Originally posted by JRB:
This is my 2,000th post


John
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What an auspicious moment JRB. Too bad it wasn't in a more cheerful thread......congrats anyway!
 
Hey, I propose an experiment to you at the end of which we all stop guessing about the future and learn something rock solid about framing business. Let’s take advantage of our number other than only sharing personal knowledge and impressions. Polls are good, but experiments are even better.

But first, let me make clear a few things.
1. Grumblers are not my market, though I have a few clients in here who are very sober and little vocal, not the typical grumbler per say. They too don’t understand what I am doing here.
2. I am sticking with you out of friendship, sympathy, habit and pleasure and because life was clement with me and I can afford a bohemian life.
3. I like stir some topics up because they are resourceful and, acting like old ladies asylants, you miss going in depth.
4. I am not trying to put plastic frames down as to increase (my) gold leafed frames sales. I'm not that stupid, though some of you suspect me to be.
5. I do hate to see you stepping on your own interest, bringing in surrogate lines and squeezing your prices (your profits) in hope that selling inexpensive frames will bring in more income to you and help you face a chaotic, low grade competition.

Here is my proposal. Let's HELP a few grumblers (two or three of them which will necessarily remain publicly unknown until the end of the experiment) to drop off their cheapest lines for a limited period of time (3 months) and see what an impact is this likely to produce upon their sales’ volume.
I guess that smart members of our community may establish the rules and the method of measuring the outcome of this experiment. I also believe that if we found 30 dollars to help FACTS give us their technical wisdom, we may find another 30 bucks to learn the result of this experiment. That money would serve as possible cushion in case subjects' overall income was to suffer as result of dropping those cheapest lines. Whatever is left untouched from that money I think fair to have it donated, along with our thanks, to the founding father of this forum to help him better it further on.

My only concern is that if this experiment is to take place, a number of suppliers would suddenly become interested in its subjects to the point where will take much honesty to resist indecent proposals to temper with the results.
 
I'm not sure if the italic parts are intended to be "light and frivolous" so I think I'll go out and mow the lawn.

I understand mowing the lawn.
 
To fill the Fetco display shelves is around two hundred frames. Fetco frames are the exact frames that you describe, inexpensively produced in China. Can you explain why only five or six of your frames have sold, while I have re-filled the Fetco display four times? Could you also enlighten me as to how I could make more money carrying your frames over Fetco's?

John,

That's irrelevant to me, but relevant to you, John. As much as I wish you have a call for those frames, you don't. That's the answer. I have a client that bought 1000 of them for Christmas alone. Now that one is also an exception. I am not going to produce 1000 photo frames in speculation for each and every framer I know. You asked for those frames, you were confident of being able to sell my frames in your market and I gave you a chance. Not even a 15% friendly discount had help, had it? So, it's not me, it's not you, it's it (the market).

On a general note, photo frame market was definitively corrupted and degraded. In this field China rules. Some of my own designs had been knocked off which I take for a compliment. Don't even mention that market to me for it is a pity. You don't want custom made frames too go that road altough some of you help it big time.
You may not be aware, but I myself play down photo frames of excellence as my main line. I am making most of my income from custom made frames of excellence and keep photo frames as an accent only. For people with heart, brains, eyes and money.

Ron,

Stay where you are. I told you that I couldn't keep my Italics for ...John's private use ;)
I am now underlining my serious ideas in Italics. When I'll run out of serious ideas I'll drop the Italics like hot potatoes. Perhaps a colored font would help opaque people understand when something is a candide joke, other collor may warn on explosive potential topic or expression. My favorite color is rust red, in case you wonder ;) You may be the guy with the colored pencil in hand since you read all our posts anyway and have proven good humor (Dogzila is comming quickly to my mind).

[ 09-13-2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
 
You can color text using HTML.

For instance, <font color=red>RED</font>
 
How quiet has suddenly become in here. Perhaps the chilling perspective of spending yet other 30 bucks has that efect.
smileyshot22.gif
shutup.gif
smileyshot22.gif
 
Originally posted by American Choice:
How quiet has suddenly become in here.
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Perhaps the ramblings of a boorish insane person has become too time consuming to continue. OR, just maybe, some of the people here have found Cornell's source of 'hand made' frames in <font color=red>Mexico</font>.
 
Gosh everyone, I certainly am happy that you all totally agree with me that IN LINE OVALS is a great source for oval, round, and fan shaped frames and glass. I appreciate your input.

John
 
Delete the whole dang thread!

I see nothing to be learned here, freedom of speech be d@mned in this case.
 
Jerry, it's not all that nice to put down Cornel, but putting down his product just plain ain't right.

Cornel makes one of the finest frames you can buy. I know this because I carry them. Perhaps you did not mean it to be a put down. You can get darn good frames that hold up well in Mexico. They DO NOT come even remotely close to what Cornel makes.

Cornel can get under everyones skin from time to time, mine included, but I can never disparage his frames. Cornel's frames are truly beautiful works of art in themselves, I can not fathom the idea of criticizing them.

John
 
Now you sond like I wish my father did. ;)

John, while I'm having your attention, let me tell you one more paradox about frames in general as response to your older question about photo frames.
In case you tried to sell my photo frames at absolutely the same price as those made in China, you'd be surprised to learn that the Chinese product still sells better than mine. Same with gold leafed moldings. At same width frame, same price, average costumers perceive any Roma type of frame nicer and more valuable than Munn's. But this is what they are trained to see and recognized as both beutiful and valuable.

As of Jerry, he is just kidd ing. He took my long forgoten "personal attack" 2 personal. I mean he must feel embarrassed stepping out of his shop not to be recognized by passbyers "aren't you the one American Choice told you so an so...?"

Anyway, I love him nevetheless just as he loved Ron next thing after his post was deleated by Ron.


[ 09-14-2004, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
 
D amn! This is sounding more and more like a soap opera. "The Secret Storm" or perhaps "The Edge of Night" maybe even "Search For Tomorrow".

On in another genre, "I Love Lucy".
 
Chuckie, you are really showing your age, those soap operas are really really old. Ya brought back a lot of memories though.....
 
Cornel, I don't understand your allusion to framers' slipping down a steep slope dealing with ILO; there is the same skill level involved ordering from ILO as there is in ordering from you.

There may be a small slip in selling an ILO as a result of catering to what you think is poor taste but I don't think so. Certainly there is more beauty to be enjoyed in one of your frames, but if the customer can't/won't afford one, nothing is lost by selling him an ILO. We can decry his lack of taste, but can we do the same with his lack of fortune? I just can't see ILO corrupting the common asthetic, and by the same token, putting one of your beautiful frames on a clod's wall isn't going to do much for his taste.

Now if it's the loss of skill in being able to produce a beautiful frame that you decry, I don't think that skill is or was very widespread anyway and isn't declining. There are almost certainly more quality hand made frames being sold now than there ever has been. I know that's the case since I got into the industry 27 years ago.

I see ILO as a company providing a product that's needed and for which there is a market. There are frames adorning walls today that would be bare even 50 years ago because custom framing is more affordable today than it was then. And that's because custom framing is way more efficient than it was then, and guess what makes it more efficient? Mass produced molding and, yes, even plastic ovals. The spread of inexpensive framing is not something to bemoan but rather to embrace for what it brings to the general quality of life of those who couldn't afford framing before.

Snobbery is, btw, a particularly ugly trait, especially comming from the suppliers of luxury goods to the wealthy at the expense of those who can't afford conspicuous consuption whether or not their esthetic appreciation would be improved by beautiful things that they can't afford. I don't see supplying mass produced frames to those who want and can afford them is something to be disparaged

There's no doubt that a lot of us, may I suggest, most, would be starving now if we took the high aesthetic road you suggest and sold only hand made, custom framing. That's a reality and suggesting otherwise serves no real purpose that I can see other than self aggrandizment and is pretty close snobbery. Of course, I realize there is a whole lot of those unattractive traits in our industry which may explain the reluctance of potential customers to walk in our doors. That and an unfortunate tendency only to sell expensive framing to those who can afford it, a small universe.

Me,I'll take the larger universe and sell then what they want and not apologize for it. I'll also work to make good custom framing available to the not rich as well as the rich.
 
Warren,

My standing against plastic is not a way of stressing my product. I wish I was a framer myself and make same point, as not to be suspected of indirectly pushing my product. You people keep making that association. Perhaps I'll soon stop reacting to this topic becaused some of you simply project your thinking and likely obtuse motivation over me and make my aesthetics stand look cheap and commercially motivated.
ILO was just a pretext, one of many possible names out there. They do everything right as far as design, finish and service is concerned and I commend them for that. My admiration stops in front of plastic being used in frames. But this is me. I don't like sylicon brest, plastic denture, plastic flowers, polyester shirts and sox, plastic chinawere and plastic frames. I found all of the above repulsive and dangerous.

My grumbler fellows got my number and have a good laugh on my expense any time they mention ILO. Unfortunately, to be honest, Munn and APF too used that foamy material to make some of their frames. You don't see me attacking them for two reasons:
a) grumblers seem to ignore those names or prefer ILO as a fuse
b) both those names, for proper consideration were able to give you the real thing too. And I don't mean gold here but taste and sublime art.

I am perfectly aware that plastic is here to stay. Sadly. But let plastic be Genovese's, Mart's, Dollar Stor's business. The association of custom framers and plastic frames is a toxic one. Not to me, but to them. I am not feeling under pressure because of "plastic" but just horrified. Custom framers are to be concerned and the younger ones will remember me for warning them about it. But then they too will be poor, unable to adjust and convinced that republicans pushed economy in the wrong direction and this is why they suffer.

And then again, who is talking about two alternatives only, either plastic or hand made, hand gilded frames? Not me. I've seen many very decent, inexpensive wood moldings around. The choice is not between gilded wood and plastic, but between WOOD and PLASTIC, see the difference?To make my point even clearer I am afraid that as Taylors were replaced by vendors with the advent of ready-made cloths, custom framers will too disppear in the age of plastic and computer designed framing. That's all. You may believe it or not, care for it or not. Te danger as I see it maynot be around everybody's corner but a poor framer can't get lower than selling plastic frames and feel safe, needed and hard to displace.

[ 09-14-2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
 
CR: "...I don't attempt to pervert my costumers to buy plastic, clay, plaster, foam or cardboard frames for less. I don't take that road...against my better chances at making piles of money..."

Cornel, of all your comments on this thread, this one displays most plainly the mindset with which I disagree.

I do not "...attempt to pervert my customers to buy...for less." Only a fool would sell a cheap product when he could sell an expensive one, or sell an inferior product when he could sell a superior one.

Responsible framers, IMHO, sell the best quality products and services customers will buy, and at the highest prices their markets will bear. My market is changing. Yours is, too.

If you can keep growing your business with premium products made in traditional ways, more power to you. Many of us do not have that luxury. We are not in this business to build frames for the sake of beauty. We are in this business to sell them profitably. Beauty, quality, and workmanship are important, but only as far as they enhance the profits. Let me put it another way: If I fail to sell what my customers want to buy, they will go to my willing competitors.

You are not alone in believing that plastic picture frames & mouldings are junk. Many framers and framing suppliers still find them utterly repulsive. For as long as the $5 mouldings sell, the $0.50 mouldings will be rejected by suppliers.

That attitude reminds me of the way American auto makers referred to plastic car parts during the 1960s. Of course, now plastic parts are found all over the best cars in the world, and the stigma is gone. In many ways, plastic is a better material.

Plastic mouldings were all junk a few years ago; some still are. If you generally believe plastic frames still are substandard, here's a reality check: The Bellagio Hotel in Las Vegas is considered to be among the most beautiful, upscale hotels in the country, and among the highest priced in Las Vegas. The Bellagio Fine Art Gallery displays Old Masters' works; in January the exhibit included about two dozen of Monet's finest original works.

When you visit Bellagio, notice the plastic frames in the rooms and hallways. Notice them in nearly all hotels and commercial buildings remodeled within the past five years. You'll have to look carefully, because they look good. Indeed, they are good.

Here's a Fearless Forecast:
Within ten years, custom framing will be done more with mouldings made of plastic than of wood.

Does that seem incredible? Consider that "production framers" already use more plastic than wood. Consider that most wood moulding manufacturers are struggling to produce profitable mouldings, even with finger-joined, softer, cheaper, woods.

Quality of wood mouldings is diminishing, while quality of plastic mouldings is advancing. At some point plastic will overtake wood. It's only a matter of time.

Cornel, you're sounding like a dinosaur.
 
Walter Brooke (Mr. McGuire): I just wanna say one word to you. Just one word.
Dustin Hoffman (Ben Braddock): Yes, sir.
Walter Brooke (Mr. McGuire): Are you listening?
Dustin Hoffman (Ben): Yes, I am.
Walter Brooke (Mr. McGuire): "Plastics."
 
Sure it does. Good thread.

A little controversy (thanks to our cranky dinosaur), some heartfelt rebuttals, a spirited debate and nearly everyone left happy (once we started talking about adult beverages.

That's a good example of how it's done, Jerry. Thanks for reminding me.

Now, who's buyin' the next round?
 
Step up to the bar boys. The first round is on me.
I could use a good, strong drink and some good company to share the drink.

You'll have to figure out how to get the milk from the coconut though.

<font size=1> cracking the coconut shouldn't be too hard since there are so many hard heads around here<font size>

:D
 
<font size=1>Deb..if one runs headlong into a coconut, will they still become a Druid? I'd crack it for you, but coconuts aren't migratory, and African Swallows aren't indigenous on the east coast...</font>
 
I think you would have to run headlong into the coconut tree, not the coconut and then you might become a kahuna instead of a druid. Just a guess.

I have noticed that you have become quite interested in druids of late. What's up with that?
 
Jim,

You are more than a framer struggling to resist into this market. You are a thinker and an educator who obviously is watching and seeing deeper than most grumblers.

If you are not concerned or disgusted with that perspective, I take your judgment as better founded than mine and let it off. Hopefully you were right and I was wrong. Hopefully McDonalds (I am purposefully exaggerating here) will never offer Combo #X with an extra little Chinese plastic photo frame, or have the hardware store introducing some phoned custom plastic frames as a new business catch of theirs.
It was a time you were going to a custom framer in order to get yourself a photo frame and to a photographer for pictures. Now both can be bought at a grocery store and not from framers' hands.

You mentioned Las Vegas hotel's plastic frames. Well, Jim, I have a feeling that some designer of theirs went straight to LJ (for example) and ordered exactly what they wanted, not to our intermediary grumbler custom framer across the street.

I fully agree with you about the future of plastic but would you agree with me that this is not a time of revolution about materials but also about technology and at the end of next ten yrs there will be less framers ands .... more grumblers?
 
Hi there, is this where I sail into the "Perfect Storm?"

My name is Chuck Cosgrove. I'm the Director of Marketing for that distinctly lowbrow company about which there has been just a little debate.

Thought I might weigh in with a few unofficial thoughts of my own. Is there a market for that or has the hurricane hustled by me while I was out visiting Cornels customers?
 
Have at it, Chuck, and welcome to The Grumble.

We like hearing from the vendors, though not many chose to participate here.

I can't imagine why. :rolleyes:

<font size=1>(I like him already.)</font>
 
Oh man, welcome to the fray Chuck. I was asking in the "Bizarro World" parallel post if ILO monitors this forum...........

After all this adversity you might want to become a sponsor of the forum. We've defended you mightily. In fact Cornels's ramblings have brought you publicity from around the globe!
 
Well, being a marketing kind of guy, I've never been bashful about needing an invitation (and it appears I'll feel right at home here) so here goes.

I'd like to thank the many of you who rose to the defence of ILO. If I understand the rules of this debating club I'm to refrain from "plugging my product" so I'd invite Ron to judiciously edit my post if I do so. Let me explain just a bit about who we are though.

We're just a small company owned by a husband and wife team. Until two years ago if you were to call us you almost certainly would have reached either Garry or Dawn, two of the most delightful people you'd ever meet. Now their son Jamie runs the show, but G & D are always (happily for us) around and Dawn accompanied us to Atlanta and played a very meaningful role in our efforts.

Most of our employees are moms. They start work early, take a break around 8:00 to make sure they get their kids off to school and get home around 3:00 to greet them.

While we may be small - time we're fiercely proud of what we do! We make no pretense of providing the kind of work that Cornel does so well, but we absolutely will defend the quality of our frames. I'd be happy to address the why's and wherefore's of some of our production choices in further posts as this one has lost what President Lincoln would have considered its wit.

Actually, I did visit one of Cornel's customers today. We're still here in Atlanta and we stopped in at a shop that supplies high-end interior designers. What beautiful frames! I've visited his website before and while it's very nice there's no way that it accurately conveys what Am. Choice produces.

We are not competitors. I have always acknowledged worthy competitors and he would be foremost IF we competed. We do not. Our most formidable competition is . . . rectangles. Ah, it is on that field shall we ride to slay the dragon!

The only thing we object to is misinformation and disingenuous remarks. Debate is always healthy, snide cynicism demeans - primarily the cynic.
 
Well Judy, now that you mention spurs . . . I do quite a little bit of work on the back of a horse and I have a (mostly) custom made saddle. It's real nice and I bought it 10 years ago for the then princely sum of $1,600.00.

At the time I longed for a truly custom made saddle, but they were roughly double the price. I had looked all over for a finely crafted buckaroo saddle, but sadly couldn't afford one. Now, I've ridden this one for a long time; many 10 - 12 hour days, many animals doctored, more than a couple of times I've seen the upside down side of that rig while that horse I'd just been riding bucked off across the prairie.

However, that saddle has done a yeoman's job for me! It's been just as functional; it still retains most of its just-new beauty; it has stood up very well to the many tasks I've asked of it. Was it the Rolls of the industry? No, but was it inferior in a meaningful way? Absolutely not. Was its inherent quality inferior? Perhaps, but it has done a wonderful job, every bit as well as a much more expensive saddle might have.

Is it not possible that our frames have very good quality? Is it possible to give them the same kind of individuality that Cornel's frames have? Not at the price we wish to be at. Why do our customers like us? They get good quality at a fair price. Is that not the essence of value?

We're always striving to improve - you should be at our weekly product development meetings. We do try and welcome any and all feedback - positive or otherwise.

Oh, I've just read through a couple of posts I'd missed. To have the kind of customers we have who'd stick their necks out for us - well to heck with the rest, we'll stick with the best.
 
Do some of you find it interesting that the 'Bizarro' thread was posted on the only thread that has only one modrator?

Or do I have to admit that I was totally wrong again?

PS: Welcome to the fray, Chuck!
 
Originally posted by American Choice:
... I fully agree with you about the future of plastic but would you agree with me that this is not a time of revolution about materials but also about technology and at the end of next ten yrs there will be less framers ands .... more grumblers?
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I believe this is "a time of revolution" for our little industry. It involves material & manufacturing technologies, computer technology, consumer attitudes and marketing.

Yes, we agree that in a decade there will be fewer small-shop, independent framers.

We don't have to like the changes in our industry, but we have to embrace them if we intend to prosper. Plastics are an increasingly important fact of life in every segment of the framing industry.

We can't much affect -- and certainly can't reverse -- the trends now in motion. Why complain about them? As a matter of business philosophy, I choose to make lemonade with my batch of lemons; I do not wish for oranges. I still like oranges, but they are going beyond my reach.

I like ILO plastic frames because my customers like them. If my customers liked $5,000 hand carved frames instead, then I would be like them, too.
 
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