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Opinions Wanted Joining Slant Sided Frames

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by alacrity8, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. alacrity8

    alacrity8 MGF, Master Grumble Framer

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  2. alacrity8

    alacrity8 MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    There are also the old style frames that are slanted forward on the outside and inside, like a simple crown moulding being used as a frame.
    I'm not looking to make any of those. Not a fan.
  3. neilframer

    neilframer PFG, Picture Framing God

    I have a couple of methods that I use when a moulding has an odd shaped outside or an odd shaped inside.
    I still join about 20% of the frames that we make in vises before vnailing.
    We have about 10 miter vises and 2 vnailers.

    If I was at work I would post pictures of how I join odd shaped frames.

    One method that I use is to attach square pieces of wood with small drywall screws to the back of the legs that I'm joining near the mitered corners.
    The blocks have to be placed accurately or you won't get a proper 45° at the corner.
    Then I glue the corners and clamp on the square wood pieces that I've attached to the back of the moulding, rather than trying to clamp on the odd shaped moulding.
    Then when the frame is glued up, I remove the blocks from the back and vnail.
    When I vnail these odd shaped mouldings, I back out the front clamp on the vnailer so it doesn't push the moulding up or dent the outside of the frame.
    I just hold the already glued and joined frame and vnail.

    Roma used to have a large profile that had a round outside edge....:confused:
    This method also worked on those.
    It will also work on mouldings that are too wide for the vise.

    One other method that I use, and it's also with a miter vise, is to use small pieces of the Arlo 1/8" solid plastic frame space between the outer vise jaw and the moulding.
    That way it is only clamping on the very bottom edge of the outside of the moulding and not pushing so much on the slanted or odd shaped area.
    This one is a little hard to describe without pictures...o_O

    You can also try to just join in the vnailer while eliminating the front clamp so it's not pushing and just use your hands as clamps to hold while vnailing but I prefer to join in a vise first.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
    alacrity8, Joe B and shayla like this.
  4. neilframer

    neilframer PFG, Picture Framing God

    I forgot to mention that I have robot clamp hands....;)
    nettie ott and FM Framer like this.
  5. David Waldmann

    David Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    The Hoffmann would join those easily...

    If you are using an underpinner:

    For the LJ one I would make a reverse profile, then miter and join it (the reverse profile) and use it as a filler between the fence and the frame.
    For the Omega one all you need is a thin fence insert that is the thickness (or less) of the first short vertical section. I understand that Cassese makes one in metal, you could make one out of some thin wood, or a thin cap moulding laid down.
  6. Frances M.

    Frances M. CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I have that Larson sample labelled "order joined"!
    Gilder and shayla like this.

    MATTHEW HALE CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    my boss just joined that larson one upside down in the vise. we typically try to remember to order those joined, but lately the join quality from LJ has been disappointing.
  8. snafu

    snafu MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    It seem like Roma is trying to make moulding impossible to cut or join.
    Gilder, alacrity8 and prospero like this.
  9. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    Maybe they're hoping folks will just order joins.
    David Waldmann likes this.
  10. Corbin Dallas

    Corbin Dallas Grumbler in Training

    If they're not exceptional and distinct profiles, I take the samples off the wall. If they're not amazing and unique frames, they're often not worth the extra time and cost of joining them. At least that Omega profile has at least something to grab onto on the side.

    ...and that Roma profile is just mean.
    Ylva, Gilder, alacrity8 and 2 others like this.
  11. alacrity8

    alacrity8 MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I usually glue my frames before underpinning.
    I definitely do with odd projects like this.
    With the LJ moulding and a similar (plus small outer lip) Vermont Hardwoods moulding, I've glued them face down in my corner vices.
    I've never had a problem doing this, but I am always worried that the corners won't look good onthe face, or that excess glue will be a problem.
    I had to cut down a few frames very similar to the Omega ones this week. As the face was not flat, I had to glue them face up.
    I used foam board shims on the outside to make the vise hold it in place.
    I was curious if a deep/shadowbox vise would help. I thought I had seen them available from some supplier, but now cannot find them now.
    Would it be useful to look for one?

  12. Dirk

    Dirk CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Take a look at Masterclamps. Actually, my advice would be just buy Masterclamps without taking a look. The latest design does an extraordinary job at producing gap-free corners. It feels like cheating for a relative novice to produce the results these clamps yield. They make me look like I know what I'm doing! For the overhung mouldings, I bought 1/8 and 1/4 inch thick aluminum in several widths, cut short pieces (just like a leg of a corner sample), and place them on the beds of the clamps. The clamp anvils press on the aluminum barstock, which presses on the bottom outside edge of the moulding. So far, we haven't had profiles that don't have at least a short vertical face at the back. To get clamping pressure on the top of the profile, I drop wooden blocks between the anvil and the outside of the moulding. There's an adjustment for the anvil's vertical angle, and you can use this feature to squeeze the top of the miter tight. These clamps look like they're only used for tall shadow-box mouldings, but they work on everything.

    Unlike a certain unnamed manufacturer of framing equipment that has moved it's production to China, these are made by skilled machinists who pay attention to detail. These clamps have no shortcuts in their design. Jaw pivots have bushings, so whenever wear appears, one only needs to replace the bushings and not the entire jaw. Perhaps, I'll never have enough wear to make use of this design feature, but it warms my heart to see someone design a machine with maintenance in mind.

    Website is masterclamp.com. Latest design is V-5 PRO.
    Rick Granick, Gilder and shayla like this.
  13. alacrity8

    alacrity8 MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I've heard good things about the Masterclamp, but I'm not a fan of a single screw clamp.
    Any other suggestions for a shadowbox style clamp?
  14. Dirk

    Dirk CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Genius of V5-PRO design is anvils that are not fixed. Unlike other single-screw clamps, these will close up the miter even when miter cuts are not a perfect match. Before suggesting this is a flaw in preparing the legs, this problem will arise when mouldings are warped or twisted, regardless how accurately the saws are aligned. For those who have never encountered a warped or twisted moulding, perhaps the Masterclamp would bring no special benefit. Few of us are in that group. A little pressure on one leg or the other while tightening the clamp will correct for twist and yield a perfect joint. The top screws on these clamps are especially helpful in making a good, clean corner on tall mouldings. It's hard to adjust a corner once vnails have been inserted! These offer a more controlled working environment.
    shayla and Gilder like this.
  15. alacrity8

    alacrity8 MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I'm sure it has some nice feature, but I like the ability to individually set each leg of a frame individually.
    It's part of why I prefer to glue up my frames in vises before vnailing.
    The vnailer can pull a corner into a nice 90 degree angle, but have one leg of the frame go 1/16" past the other.
    I've also experienced this on more generic single screw corner clamps.
    I've also experienced it with using strap clamps.
    Without first hand experience with this clamp, on non perfect moulding, I am not interested in this product.
    It's also unlikely that I will get first hand experience as all of the east coast shows have collapsed.

    I'm happy that you like your clamp.
  16. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    I hope the quality of the product is better than the quality of the video!!!
    The birds chirping were louder then his voice most times!!!
    Also, the first 2 and half minutes were a waste of time.

    Seriously, you're trying to sell your product and can't afford a mike on the person instead of on the camera?

    All in all, an interesting product.. but no plans to buy another "toy" for the store.

    I'd much rather but more toys for my woodturning shop.
    Aiden and neilframer like this.
  17. David Waldmann

    David Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    And. it's in his kitchen...

    And, it's an $800, one-corner clamp (Now, 50% off!!!)...

    And, he has a bad reputation on TG for ignoring customer requests regarding PR.
  18. alacrity8

    alacrity8 MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    What video are you referring too?
  19. neilframer

    neilframer PFG, Picture Framing God

    But it's just like our shop, birds and all.....:p
    Actually we just seem to have mosquitos in the shop lately:mad:.
    (They don't seem to like to bite me though, maybe because I've had chemo and radiation:D)
    They bite everyone else.
    I wish that my shop was in the kitchen.....o_O:rolleyes:
    Yeah and for $400, I can find better uses for that money then a clamp that I can do without.

    I've found over many years that it's not always necessary to buy a new expensive tool to get a job done.
    Sometimes it's better to be a "MacGyver", figure it out and much can be learned this way (and it's cheaper).:cool:
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  20. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    Be all this as it may, we love our Masterclamps. They came highly recommended, and they work great.

    Brian, my hubby has dreamed of using a 3-D printer to make the corresponding shapes for joining crazy frames.
    alacrity8 likes this.
  21. prospero

    prospero SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I seem to remember a moulding that came with a sacrificial piece of just the right shape to support the back
    when cutting and joining. :rolleyes:
  22. Rosewood

    Rosewood Grumbler

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