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"Modest economic recovery 'in a pause'"

Framar

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Pat Murphey

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
What do you expect from the most anti-business Administration and Congress ever? ...a looming tax time bomb for 2011 ...uncertainty over the huge costs buried in the Health Care monster ...financial regulation of all credit, passed but to be written by anti-business bureaucrats. Trillions in debt accumulating from huge growth in Govermnent. ...nearly a trillion wasted on "stimulus" directed to government employment temporary subsidy, temporary projects, and pitiful $250 checks. We are lucky that it isn't worse.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So Mar did you actually believe them when they said there was any recovery at all. If you remove the couple trillion spent by the gov't you will see we have been in a very deep and extended recession. Every piece of postive numbers experienced has been at the taxpayer's expense.

Here's an example of the BS we have been fed and most citizens take at face value and never bother to read the facts.

Headline:

New homes sales increase 33%!!!!!!!!!!!!

Truth:

Increase is from last month which was the second worst month in history. Sales are actually down 50% from the same month last year which was a horrendous month.


Headline:

Home prices increase 1.3%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Truth:

That price is the median price which means half sold for more and half sold for less. Prices had declined better than 15% for the same items sold the previous year. Many of the high end homes are actually selling at 50% less than they did the year before but because the price drop is so huge many people are buying in the higher price category which slants the numbers in favor of the National Association of Liars favor.


You can give me any set of numbers and I can show you how to make them look positive.
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
We have traded factories for bureaucracies and legislation, it is what we voted for, it is what we seem to want. Legislation and regulations, all of which are designed to give a monetary gain to government, have driven factories from our shores.

The larger the bureaucracies grow, the more money they need, so enforcing regulations have grown to a feverish pitch, driving even more companies overseas or out of business for good.

With our huge government work forces, over seventeen million people not counting the postal service, nor the military, and still growing, the need for money has become desperate. This is not because individual government employees are greedy, it is because their unions keep demanding more and more.

The problem for the taxpayer is that government unions, unlike private sector unions, are arguing for higher wages and benefits for government employees, with government employees. It's a slam dunk, no contest win situation for them.

It is now at the point where the average government salary and benefits package is more then double that of the private sector.

Taxes, fees, and fines collected by our assorted governments no longer come close to what is needed for our bureaucracies to continue growing. As a result, we find ourselves borrowing and borrowing from any source that will loan us money. Red China, Saudi Arabia, and many more.

Our dollar is rapidly becoming worthless. If you purchased a pound of gold ten years ago, what would you rather have today, the pound of gold or the dollars you paid for it?

Our national debt has grown to the point that not just our economy is threatened, but the very stability of our country as we know it has been put at risk. When we no longer can make government payrolls, we can expect millions of government workers rioting, demanding what is owed to them.

President Obama was on the news last night gloating about how, by propping up a failing company with billions of taxpayer dollars, he has saved our economy.

The united states needs more than just a car factory to become viable again. With more and more regulations going into effect almost daily, privately held companies that actually produce tangible items, if they are new, will fail before they open their doors, if they are old, they are looking overseas to survive.

We have created an environment that is studiously hostile to private enterprise. We are also the most regulated people on the face of the earth, including North Korea.

How many laws and regulations are on the books that do not offer some sort of monetary gain to government?

John
 

Framing Queen

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Are you kidding? Greenspan??? The architect of this entire economic disaster has the gall to spew even more nonsense?

Here's an interesting fact: I just finished my July books to send in my sales tax. July 2010 was the absolute BEST July I have ever had in 8 years. July 2009 was the worst ever including my first year in business.

Obama deserves lots of credit for keeping this entire situation from becoming a total economic disaster. Of course, we can't possibly have economic upticks if companies keep sending our jobs overseas. Here in Tampa, 600 laid off on friday and those jobs being sent to India.

:kaffeetrinker_2:
 

Paul N

In Corner
How many laws and regulations are on the books that do not offer some sort of monetary gain to government?
You mean those that make sure your food is not contaminated? And the air is clean enough to breathe?

Or that your medication won't kill?, mining companies won't poison and kill every fish in our rivers? If oil spilled they have to clean it up and compensate for losses?
That banks must ensure peoples' money? TV ads must be truthful? If your car is s lemon you could give it back? If cars explode on impact, they should be fixed?

I could list another 1000 regulations that you'd hate.

And what do you think the bad government should do with those who pollute your water with Mercury? Not fine them? How about shoot them, would that make you feel better??

What better incentive do you propose en lieu of a huge fine for a company deceiving its investors, like the $500 million Goldman Sachs agreed to pay lately?? Give them the evil eye instead??:p:p
 

JWB9999999

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
While everyone wants to cast blame for this or that around, perhaps 2 words should be remembered: business cycle.

We've always had them. Folks like Dodd in congress and some of the bankers who created very risky investment tools, well they helped make it worse. But so did everybody who bought property on speculation, or investors who poured money into fundamentally unsound companies via stock purchases, or managers/politicians who constantly caved in to public and private union demands for ever increasing benefits (think: automotive sector, teachers unions, many city employees, etc.).

But all these people did was add fuel to the fire. The business cycle goes up and down. It's based on human nature. Maybe at some point in the future it'll level out and we'll be done with these cycles, but not for now.
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
Are you kidding? Greenspan??? The architect of this entire economic disaster has the gall to spew even more nonsense?

Here's an interesting fact: I just finished my July books to send in my sales tax. July 2010 was the absolute BEST July I have ever had in 8 years. July 2009 was the worst ever including my first year in business.

Obama deserves lots of credit for keeping this entire situation from becoming a total economic disaster. Of course, we can't possibly have economic upticks if companies keep sending our jobs overseas. Here in Tampa, 600 laid off on friday and those jobs being sent to India.

:kaffeetrinker_2:
It is the cost of regulatory pressure that is sending the jobs out of the country, not Obama, not Bush, nor the Republicans and Democrats. It is our never ceasing demand for more regulations, higher minimum wages, safer workplaces, more taxes to support the regulatory bureaucracies, and on and on. It is us, the people of the U.S. that are demanding that nothing is produced here that might harm the environment, that people are paid a "livable wage" and a million other feel good regulations are in place.

We think we are saving our country with all our regulations, but we are destroying it. To top it off, we can not go back, it must get worse. There is not one regulation or law on the books that can not be justified. So while we are building our safe, well paid, workers paradise, we are losing more and more jobs for them to work at.

As it is now the biggest employers in our private sector are the ones who sell the bulk of their products to our government. Government is the only customer that thinks a toilet seat that costs four hundred dollars is a reasonable price. To keep up with the cost of regulations, the costs of union wages, that is what it has to sell for. The rest of us buy our toilet seats from China, because that is all we can afford.

Our only future is government employment. The problem with that is since government productivity adds nothing to our GNP, our dollar is losing its value worldwide.

It is not any political party at all, it is us, the voters, who in the final analysis, will be responsible for what we have wrought.

John
 

Puppiesonacid

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Yep... we would rather the chinese die and polute our world then have us do it and keep jobs here. thats humanitarisim
 

John Golden

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
We are one of the reason jobs go over seas. I bet that most people would not pay the extra money a made in USA television would cost if there were one made in the US. We send our jobs away when we make our purchasing choices.

Another reason.... If you go and build yourself a factory in China... You will enjoy 10 years of NO taxes. After the 10 years you will be taxed on your profits but only after all costs of building the plant and equipping it have been paid for. Never mind that the employees bennefits (what little they get) are also paid for by the Chineese government. how is the fair to the American worker?

The Chinese government also has a nice system of subsidies in place. For example, you can buy Chineese steel and pay the freight to have it floated over to the US cheaper than you can buy it domestically. Why? The Chineese government subsidizes part of the cost to produce the steel to plants in China.

How many folks out there are encouraging their kids to pursue manufacturing careers? Better yet, how about the 5600 US high school students that drop out of school every day of the year. Without a trained and educated workforce we will lack innovation and we will continue to watch jobs move overseas...
 

troyveluz

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I don't understand all this "blame Obama" or "blame Bush" arguments.
I am not an economist so please explain this to me.

This is what I am hearing in the news:
We are in the position we are in right now becuase private companies were left to regulate themselves but some people do not want them regulated. So who's going to watch them? Should private companies be left to their own devices?

We have high unemployment.
Private companies are has a lot of cash but are not hiring.
Government is hiring but we do not want "big government".
Where are people going to find jobs?


Just my 3 cents.
Troy
 

Puppiesonacid

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I don't understand all this "blame Obama" or "blame Bush" arguments.
I am not an economist so please explain this to me.

This is what I am hearing in the news:
We are in the position we are in right now becuase private companies were left to regulate themselves but some people do not want them regulated. So who's going to watch them? Should private companies be left to their own devices?

We have high unemployment.
Private companies are has a lot of cash but are not hiring.
Government is hiring but we do not want "big government".
Where are people going to find jobs?


Just my 3 cents.
Troy
well troy, that is why its called politics. there is no easy answer. i blame big government for most of our problems. and the stupid americans for buying into bad deals and greed that got us into this mess we are in today.

businesses need profit to function. government does not. it takes profits from us and then does what it wants to with the money most the time. so why does the government need less money to function over a normal business. because it requires no PROFIT to stay there. it just takes and takes.

Sure we get a lot from our government like someone was saying, but when is it to much is the question i asked? Again im not against all government, and im not against business at all.

What we got here today is most things being sent over seas. imop its because our government is to strict and makes busninesses give things to its employees it can't afford. why because there is no profit. profit is the NEW evil.

Its like someone telling you you have to make an extra 10k a year to pay for the benefits for your employees. you may not be able to, what happens then?

you fire them. then what happens. they go on unemployment. then what happens. they get a government job if they are lucky that gives the benefits you can't pay for... but... wait for it... its the taxes you are paying that pay for them to have that job... what good does that do anyone????

you lose the employee, the government gets one... we as tax payers waste more money giving them that job then you would have if they did not FORCE you to buy something else for them to continue to employ them. so is this a winning situation overall???

most of what you said is true... BIG businesses have lots of money right now but are not spending and not hiring. WHY... one i believe they are scared of what the government may come up with next for them to have to buy... and... because of the recession they have learned to get by on less, and make more PROFITS... that evil word again. surely the government cannot let this trend go on and let people prosper for once. it will be taxed and taken away from them at some point if they do NOT hire anyone as a penalty. that is my prediction. im done
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
We are slowly adopting an entirely new social economic system where the bulk of our workforce will only be employed by government or government suppliers. There will be room for ultra large bureaucratically run and controlled corporations, and very small mom and pop cottage industries.

Mostly our work force will be employed by the state, or not employed at all. Either way, their income will come from the state.

We have already passed the halfway point to becoming this future reality. We have a future of a tightly government controlled population. The possibility of each citizen having a GPS microchip implant in the next fifty years or sooner is very likely.

We will continue to believe we are the freest people on earth, it is what we will be "taught".

John
 

Grey Owl

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
...Legislation and regulations, all of which are designed to give a monetary gain to government, have driven factories from our shores...

John
I really believe the trend to make things cheaper has driven factories from our shores. Labor rates are cheaper elsewhere, first Mexico, then India, then Indonesia, etc. This has been going on through all administrations since Truman. [Probably before that, but I was too young to know]
 

HB

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
We are slowly adopting an entirely new social economic system where the bulk of our workforce will only be employed by government or government suppliers. There will be room for ultra large bureaucratically run and controlled corporations, and very small mom and pop cottage industries....

John
Sounds like another Canada!
 

hangupsgallery

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
An Old Sea Story

There's an old sea story about a ship's Captain who inspected his sailors, and afterward told the first mate that his men smelled bad. The Captain suggested perhaps it would help if the sailors would change underwear occasionally.

The first mate responded, "Aye, aye sir, I'll see to it immediately!"

The first mate went straight to the sailors berth deck and announced, "The Captain thinks you guys smell bad and wants you to change your underwear." He continued, "Pittman, you change with Jones, McCarthy, you change with Witkowski, and Brown, you change with Schultz."


THE MORAL OF THE STORY:
Someone may come along and promise "Change", but don't count on things smelling any better.
 

troyveluz

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Still nobody answered my questions.

Should private companies that brought us the current state of our economy be left to their own devices and not be regulated?

If private companies, who has a lot of cash, are not hiring and we do not want government to hire us, where will we find jobs?

Regards,
Troy
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Should private companies that brought us the current state of our economy be left to their own devices and not be regulated?

If private companies, who has a lot of cash, are not hiring and we do not want government to hire us, where will we find jobs?
The regulations exist but the gov't employees did not enforce them. Should we create more regulations that will not be enforced by the next round of worthless gov't employees.

The private corps are sitting on cash in preparation for the gov't tax hikes and mandatory insurance that is on the horizon. If the administration would back off the corporations would not be hoarding cash to help insure their survival.

Most gov't employees are the biggest piece of carp waste of space and taxpayer money on the planet. Average federal gov't employee is paid nearly $80,000 for doing absolutely nothing. They can't be forced to do their jobs or fired because of the unions. Do you really want to expand that program.
 

Paul N

In Corner
Still nobody answered my questions.

Should private companies that brought us the current state of our economy be left to their own devices and not be regulated?

If private companies, who has a lot of cash, are not hiring and we do not want government to hire us, where will we find jobs?

Regards,
Troy
Are you really expecting an honest answer from the people whose party hated regulation (anything goes, the market will take care of itself, self regulation is the key, drizzle down economy, blablabla) but when the karp hit the fan , they swore they loved regulation and now, barely 18 months later, they hate it again???

There are at least 2 threads now about how bad regulations are!

And...do a search on threads with the word "regulation" or go and read the Dog Pile and you have your answer.

Greedy & Foxy people are doomed to repeat the same mistake over and again.
 

DVieau2

PFG, Picture Framing God
.........Should private companies that brought us the current state of our economy be left to their own devices and not be regulated?.......
Also, don't complain about too much regulation without being specific.

Less regulation at the borders?
Less regulation for wall street?
Less regulation for Banks & mortgage brokers?
Fewer Osha laws in the coal mines?
Fewer Osha laws in our frame building factories.
Wanna drop social security?
Medicare???
Unemployment???
Less regulation for truck drivers?
Child labor laws?
Fewer building and bridge inspections? (Guess what happen exactly three years ago in MN).
Fewer regulations for automobiles?
Fewer regulations for airlines?
Please add your own...........


Save money, live better....Right.

Every one of these items makes us less competitive with foreign countries?

Doug
 

Puppiesonacid

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Also, don't complain about too much regulation without being specific.

Less regulation at the borders?

Yes to these .

the first one is actually a job the government should be doing that it IS NOT!!! IE Arizona tryign to pass their own laws only to have the FED say no... stupid...

Less regulation for wall street?
Less regulation for Banks & mortgage brokers?
Fewer Osha laws in the coal mines?
Fewer Osha laws in our frame building factories.
Wanna drop social security?
Medicare???
Unemployment???


Less regulation for truck drivers?
state government for this one...

Child labor laws? Ive been working since i was 15.. If there is unemployment that means we dont' actaully need kids to work so im not to worried about this one.


Fewer building and bridge inspections? (Guess what happen exactly three years ago in MN).
again... a government job it SHOULD be doing but fails at.


Fewer regulations for automobiles?
ask toyota what they think... lol


Fewer regulations for airlines?
yes... the government regulations is making it cost to much and make less people fly. meaning more government bail outs in the future.


Save money, live better....Right.

Every one of these items makes us less competitive with foreign countries?

Doug
We are protecting ourselves out of a country. We may all be alive, but not working...
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
T
Most gov't employees are the biggest piece of carp waste of space and taxpayer money on the planet. Average federal gov't employee is paid nearly $80,000 for doing absolutely nothing. They can't be forced to do their jobs or fired because of the unions. Do you really want to expand that program.
Jeff, I agree that the regulations are in place, just not being enforced, but i take exception with the section I quoted.

That is pure ########! How can you claim that people that work for our government, the mail men and women, the people at the DMV and in other agencies are all wastes of space? They're people, their Americans, they are our fellow citizens. The Armed Services are government agencies, are you saying that all soldiers are wastes of space? Are you saying that all the engineers and scientists at NASA and at Los Alomos are wastes of space? How about the people of DARPA? If so then give up your internet, it came from the Government.

And you're talking the "average" wage. If someone gets $5 a year and someone else gets $159,995 a year then the average is $80K. Whose to say that the person getting $5 didn't do $5 worth of work? Maybe the person getting $159,995 is actually an uinderpayed engineer. The use of "average" is misleading and completely wrong. It is just a talking point to work up the "average" American. Stop falling for it.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Take all of the exception you like with the statements Bob. If the majority of these people worked in the private sector they would be fired for not doing their jobs. They are grossly overpaid and under worked. If they had to hold down a real job they would not survive. They do not know the meaning of "Work Ethic".
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So what are you saying Bob that it is only 50%. We could weed half of them out and the system would work better than it does today.
 

Bill Henry-

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I don’t believe the economy will truly begin to get better until congress can make a decision whether to extend the Bush tax cuts.

A business will hold off hiring until they see if they will get hit with a tax increase. If your profits are already down, and the tax cuts expire, you can’t afford to hire anyone.

But, even if congress allows the tax cuts to continue, businesses will not hire until there is an increase in demand for their products. There will not be an increase in demand until more people are working.

I have to disagree with both Jeff and Bob. Public employees are not necessarily a waste of space. They can, as Bob says, provide essential services such as police, firefighters, teachers, etc.

However, public employees are consumers of tax revenues. Businesses are producers of tax revenues. When more and more people become public employees, that places the burden more and more on the private sector to provide taxes to provide employment for public employees.

Let’s tone down the rhetoric a bit. Republicans do not wish to abolish ALL regulations as the Democrats claim. Democrats do not wish to strangle businesses with a total control, Fascist central planning as the Republicans claim. There is a balance somewhere, but the two parties don’t agree where the fulcrum should be placed.
 

Framing Queen

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
What really cracks me up is the comparison of China regulatory policy and the USA.

Does anyone remember that China is COMMUNIST ??? Sheesh

:party:
 

Paul N

In Corner
What really cracks me up is the comparison of China regulatory policy and the USA.

Does anyone remember that China is COMMUNIST ??? Sheesh

:party:
And yet...........they have become the #2 economic power in the world (they just surpassed japan!) while the a Wall Street based system is suffering badly.

Anybody knows why?? Or has an explanation??
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
What really cracks me up is the comparison of China regulatory policy and the USA.

Does anyone remember that China is COMMUNIST ??? Sheesh

:party:
The average Chinese citizen has less than 1,500 laws and regulations that relate to his day to day activities and living. Penalties can be severe and swift.

The average American has more than a million laws and regulations that relate to his day to day activities and living. Penalties are incredibly slow, expensive, and cumbersome, due mainly to the thousands of regulatory procedures involved.

Like I said earlier, there is no such thing as a law or regulation that can not be justified.

Have we now reached the point where laws and regulations are a greater hindrance to progress and human happiness?

I do not believe it is possible that any politician can recommend a law or regulation be removed from the books without risking losing votes. They can only add more.

Our nation of law has become just that, and only that. We have more lawyers than some countries have people.

John
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
And yet...........they have become the #2 economic power in the world (they just surpassed japan!) while the a Wall Street based system is suffering badly.

Anybody knows why?? Or has an explanation??
China is much like the old industrialized U.S. If a person wanted to build cars, he just set up a factory, hired a crew, and started doing it, with almost no regulatory interference.

To open a factory here now, you have many years and many millions of dollars to spend on just working your way through all our regulations and bureaucratic procedures, environmental studies, social economic impact studies, and on and on.

We are destroying ourselves from within. We are the epitome of "Not In My Back Yard!"

It is not just the U.S., it is all western industrialized countries. Bureaucracy is more important than production.

That is why China is now the financial powerhouse of the world. If it was not for China's largess, the U.S. would be a whole lot worse off than it is now.

John
 

Paul N

In Corner
China is much like the old industrialized U.S. If a person wanted to build cars, he just set up a factory, hired a crew, and started doing it, with almost no regulatory interference.
Perhaps and that may explain why they have major pollution of their water and air.

And that explains why their exports to us, from dry walls containing lead to pet food killing our pets are dangerous!

Is that the result of less regulations you're dreaming about??
 

David N Waldmann

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Paul N said:
Anybody knows why?? Or has an explanation??
China is much like the old industrialized U.S. If a person wanted to build cars, he just set up a factory, hired a crew, and started doing it, with almost no regulatory interference.
Perhaps and that may explain why they have major pollution of their water and air.

And that explains why their exports to us, from dry walls containing lead to pet food killing our pets are dangerous!
Just because you don't like the answer, or that it supports your desire for regulation, does not mean it isn't true.
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
Perhaps and that may explain why they have major pollution of their water and air.

And that explains why their exports to us, from dry walls containing lead to pet food killing our pets are dangerous!

Is that the result of less regulations you're dreaming about??
Paul, go back and look at what I said about there never being a regulation that can not be justified.

What everyone seems to want is having it both ways. We want lots of work, but we do not want any work that might be considered dangerous to us or our environment. We have gotten exactly what we wanted.

Why are we looking at Chinas wealth with envy, then bitching about Chinas pollution at the same time? China has the same pollution our country had when it was rich and producing things other than regulations.

It is really simple to understand, if you make stuff, you can sell it and make money, even have jobs for people.

If you want to make stuff, you gotta go to China or India, we don't want nothing made here.

It is cheaper to make things overseas than here simply because the cost of doing business is much higher here.

As more and more people get cut off from government support and actually have to earn a living, things will start being cheaper to make here, but probably, due to minimum wage laws, not cheap enough.

I am not dreaming about anything other than retiring and not doing anything.

John
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
John I don't think that we are looking at China's wealth "with envy". Nor do i think we are envious of the labor practices still being done in India, Bangeladesh or anywhere else. I think it should be up to our companies that go into other countries to work at our standards and expectations. Our companies should be an example of how we do it in our country. Following worker safety guidelines, health guidelines and pollution standards. We shouldn't allow our companies to go to Mexico, to Honduras or even to the Marianas Islands and exploit the environment and populations there.

If we "have to go to China to make anything" then we should go there and make things with the standards and practices we have here. Or if we are going to allow our companies to follow local practices then we should follow the stricter laws and codes.

As it is China is becoming aware that their pollution, like our pollution from the coal fired power plants in the mid west, do not adhere to geographic, political boundaries. China's foul air pollution is drifting over their borders, is drifting across the Pacific and is hitting our shores. Just as our plants in the Mid West caused acid rain in Canada and the Adirondacks. China is no becoming the biggest mover and shaker in solar power. These last few years here I have been saying if we keep denying GCC that we would be past by other countries. China is kicking our butts in the Solar Power game, and the Battery game. So much so that I had heard that if you own a cell phone, lap top or i-dohickey that you have a battery made in China inside it.

So do we keep lamenting that China, India, Brazil is kicking our butts, or do we get off our butts? It's not that we don't want to make anything here, we just don't want to pay for it.
 

Puppiesonacid

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
China is much like the old industrialized U.S. If a person wanted to build cars, he just set up a factory, hired a crew, and started doing it, with almost no regulatory interference.

To open a factory here now, you have many years and many millions of dollars to spend on just working your way through all our regulations and bureaucratic procedures, environmental studies, social economic impact studies, and on and on.

We are destroying ourselves from within. We are the epitome of "Not In My Back Yard!"

It is not just the U.S., it is all western industrialized countries. Bureaucracy is more important than production.

That is why China is now the financial powerhouse of the world. If it was not for China's largess, the U.S. would be a whole lot worse off than it is now.

John
Amen. this sums it all up for me right here. :)
 

troyveluz

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
China is much like the old industrialized U.S. If a person wanted to build cars, he just set up a factory, hired a crew, and started doing it, with almost no regulatory interference.
Amen. this sums it all up for me right here. :)
Just remember that during that same "industrialized US" period where there were "almost no regulatory interference", there was also child labor and lots of labor abuses. China still has child labor and forced labor. ( I just saw the Walmart and Nike feature in CNBC recently) These are also some of the reasons China can manufacture products at a very low cost.

I came from a 3rd world country and saw firsthand these labor practices.

Is this what we want to go back to?
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Is this what we want to go back to?
The lack of new regulations will not send us back in time 100 years no matter how much some politician wants you to believe it would.
 

Puppiesonacid

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
yeah.. thats how i look at it. we are here now.. it takes 100 times as long to go backwards then forward. things would be stopped before it got that bad again.

i look at it as... if somewhere treats you bad, get another job. and if you can't find another one. start one.
 

Paul N

In Corner
The lack of new regulations will not send us back in time 100 years no matter how much some politician wants you to believe it would.
No, but the lack of certain regulations in China puts their standards about 100 years behind us.

From pollution, to exports containing dangerous chemicals in them, to sweatshops employing kids working 16 hours in dangerous conditions.. That's what Troy meant.
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
We, as a sophisticated, enlightened nation, have no intentions of going backward, not one single step, even if it means no private sector employment at all. We want our air clean, our children pampered, our paint lead free.

The United States does not need factories or anything else to care for it's population, the state will do that for us. Why work or get your hands dirty when you can be sitting in an air conditioned government cubical, playing cards or, for research purposes only, looking at porno. To build our country to even more greatness, all we need are well paid government jobs.

We have many social programs, welfare, food stamps, extended unemployment checks, and of course free job training for those who are waiting for their government job in a cubical.

All of this is paid for with money borrowed from China or Saudi Arabia. This is the new order for America and the west. No factories for us, we do not want or need them. What the heck does gross national product mean anyway? Just a bunch of blah blah words. We should have a regulation or law about using such words.

John
 

troyveluz

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I am wondering, does anyone know who the largest employer is in the (Communist) People's Republic of China? My best guess is the government.

If you were to open a business, would you rather live in China? A country where, according to some, is easier to open a factory than the USA and at the same time a country where you don't have freedom of speech and government censorship.
I have lived in a country where there is no freedom of speech and government censorship. And if you say something bad publicly about a government official, you would just disappear in the middle of the night.
I don't know how China is and I could completely be of base here, but from what I have learned in my Social Studies courses in high school, if a country is communist, everything is owned and controlled by the government.

Just my 3 cents.
 

PicturedFramer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I think both arguments are correct in summation.
We long for the past as John puts it and want to be that great country again, industrious, strong, cocky, ingenious, entrepreneurs and profitable. Make things here and not in China or India and keep the jobs for the people in the US which in turn gives us all a decent living and a productive life. But not back then, we want it now, today- tomorrow and the day after. But are we willing to put in the hard labor, put in the long days, are we willing to risk it? A resounding yes. Are we willing to work for (oh no, guvmt regulation) minimum wage? In cold unheated polluted environments. Not a problem. Get rid of all those guvment regulations and BeePee it. Lets go back to the good old days of might makes right, survival of the fittest-shoot first and then ask questions. I long for those days, don't you? Shoot all the lawyers as Shakespeare put it. Has this country gone soft? It's easy to blame the guvmnt but we love to shop at Walmart too.
Of course too much guvment regulation does no one any good, sometimes we need it to protect ourselves from ourselves.
I don't see this country turning into Iceland soon but we'll see.
Francisco
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
I am sorry John, I can't decipher your posts.

What is it exactly that you really want?? No regulations and no pollution? Sorry it ain't gonna work.

No regulations and not giving the workers a healthy work environment, ditto.
And yet, Francisco does.

Here is the point you seem to need to understand. We are a country in decline. We will never be a manufacturing powerhouse again. Most of what we do manufacture is sold to our government or, as in the case of autos, substantially subsidized by government.

Legislation does not take place until a special interest group makes themselves heard. We have millions of feel good laws and regulations that increase the cost of production to levels that they no longer have a market, unless of course, the market is government.

There is no point or solution, we can not undo what has been done, it would upset way too many special interest groups.

Our dollar will continue to decline in value, gold will continue to rise in value as compared to our dollar. Our worst fear is that China will start unloading dollars, everyone else will follow.

We are fine as long as that does not happen, nevertheless, we will never again be what we once were.

We do have some advantages, like cheap real estate, and a rapidly building cheap labor pool comprised mostly of our now unemployed blue collar work force . We have a very good educational system, we are world leaders in bio engineering, medicine, computer engineering, and a host of other white collar industries, that many, sadly, depend on government grants to get off the ground.

All things considered, right now, we are at risk due mostly to our incredible national debt. That debt could be the cause of our undoing.

No country in the world can conquer the U.S., we are the only ones up to the task.

John
 

DVieau2

PFG, Picture Framing God
We long for the past as John puts it and want to be that great country again, industrious, strong, cocky, ingenious, entrepreneurs and profitable.
A list of five fine qualities and one bad quality. "Cocky" people, in business and in politics, are essentially responsible for our current predicament.


Doug
 
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