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"Modest economic recovery 'in a pause'"

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Framar, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    John, whhat makes you think we can't be a producer nation again? One of the main reasons we aren't today is because of the short sighted out sourcing mentality. Our companies saw greater short term profit in out sourcing the production jobs. They lost sight of the fact that Henry Ford got ages ago. Namely sell at a cost your employees can pay. With no employees the companies have only been able to sell as long as our savings (and credit cards) held out.

    Now that both are depleted the companies need to see that they need to hire and pay people so those same people can buy their goods. The companies saw us as a consumer nation, but forgot where that "disposable income" came from. (Hint: JOBS)

    We can produce, we can innovate, we need to get it together and attack the niche that needs production and innovation. Being a green thinker I think that area is Alt Fuels and Power. You being a pillage and plunder person may see the need to be clothing (haz mat suits) and chemicals (big pharma style). Someone else may see the need for food and death. But with Brussell's concerns owning many of our grocery store chains the only thing left to us is death. And I have a sinking feeling that the "cheap" coffins are being made in China. I remember as a younger person seeing a little factory that made coffins in a neighboring town. That factory closed. How many others have closed.

    Since everyone eats, dies and ****s and since our food is making Brussells rich, and our death is making China rich maybe we could focus on turning our #### into fuel and make America rich :)
     
  2. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    WALLLLY, WAAAALLLY, WAAALLLYYYY!!!!

    What in the world is the criterea for decorum upon these here vaunted forums?

    A week or so ago I made a comment in a thread on one of these here 'serious' forums about cutting plastic moulding and the plastic melting and dripping down into the blade slot on the table saw.

    To Wit:
    http://thegrumble.com/showthread.php?p=638280#post638280

    Well now, according to 'Wally the Wonder Mod' my comment was inappropriate - "Let's restrict that kind of thing to warped please." said he...

    And yet here this thread sits...

    Melted plastic, indeed....
     
  3. Framing Queen

    Framing Queen CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Nothng could be further from the truth. No individual can open a business in China without the GOVERNMENT OWNING the majority share of the business. Additionally, the GOVERNMENT will - at their discretion - limit your ability to export, advertise, or operate your commerce in general. They squelch free speech (can anyone say Google) and require heavy government taxation and ignore child labor.

    Any outside company wanting to do business in China MUST partner with an existing or sanctioned Chinese company.

    Anyone who thinks China is a great place for business should chat with the workers who can't - for the most part - buy the goods they produce.

    :popc:
     
  4. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I'm inclined to agree with John, that, as a former "producer nation", our country has gone beyond the point of no return. The reasons for that may be numerous, but the quote below gives one clear indication of what potential American entrepreneurs, including manufacturers, are up against.

    Here is a snippet from a U.S. Government study, the entirety of which is available on this site:

    http://sba.ca.gov/Cost%20of%20Regulation%20Study%20-%20Final.pdf
    The high costs of labor, plus the high costs of benefits, plus the high costs of taxes and regulations have combined to make production in this country more expensive than taking it overseas -- and not by just a little. In some cases domestic production costs three or four times more than overseas production, even after adding in the expenses of long-distance shipping and remote management.

    Even if regulations were removed, and if entitlements were shrunk enough to reduce taxes, and if benefits reverted to personal costs instead of compensation components, the cost of labor would still discourage domestic production.

    Perhaps it may never happen here again. The situation is most troubling because it leaves our entire economy, and therefore our entire nation, vulnerable to the strengths, weaknesses, and whims of nations delighted to take our money and our power.

    When families moved to the western United States 150 years ago, traveling was difficult and perilous, especially crossing the mountains in winter. A good piece of advice at the time was, in case of hardship in freezing weather, don't burn your furniture. Because, if you did that, then you would have nothing left to build a household at the end of your journey.

    As a nation, we are burning our furniture.
     
  5. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    John:

    Ah yes, all those companies that outsourced and decided to move factories to faraway places were really driven away by regulations.

    Not because they wanted to pay less for American workers.

    Regulations are the enemy. Let's talk about something dear to your heart: Maybe we should do away with ALL FAA regulations and see how you safely you can fly your small airplane!!

    Do they regulate jet fuel?? I am hoping they do, otherwise somebody might find it profitable to add some "filler" to stretch the supply a bit!...

    Or let anybody who played a video game about airplanes fly and do way with those pesky expensive flight lessons, certifications and regulations (the government is getting paid all those unnecessary fees after all, for what?? anybody can keep the skies safe!).

    It is is just an example how pesky regulations are. They are made just to benefit the guvment.
     
  6. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    OK CVM,

    1) my comment to Bill was in jest. He and I have a love/hate relationship. We both love to hat e each other :) and as such we know the other is not serious when we say "nasty" things.

    2) I thought that the censor/filter would get rid of #### s as it does with ####. I was mistaken. ####-s is OK but D ude isn't. Go figure :)

    Isn't this in Warped? I thought it was as all discussions of the economy, whether serious in intial post or bating as some like to do end up getting raunchy. So I am assuming this one is in Warped.

    Besides, those snippets you highlighted, other than my use of a 4 letter word are not that bad in and of themselves.
     
  7. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    But this ain't warped and it's still okay! That's my point! Wally edited out a post of mine in these her 'serious' (rolls eyes) forums b/c I said that when you cut platic frames really slowly the plastic melts down into the saw blade groove. Wally edited that out.

    See for yerself:
    http://thegrumble.com/showthread.php...280#post638280

    But here we have teasing, sniping and cussin', and it's okay! What's up w/ that? Where's the luv, Wally?

    Melted frames MY EYE!
     
  8. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Of course they want to pay less for American workers, but they are prevented from doing so by government regulations.

    It's a two edged sword. Regulations require that workers be treated fairly, but at an increased cost to the businessman which makes his costs higher which reduces his ability to hire workers and remain competative with "outsourced" goods.
     
  9. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    Paul, thanks for your comments. Please read Jim Millers post above if you have the time.

    As far as regulatory practices of the FAA go, most are designed to protect people on the ground, the aircraft and crew are beneficiaries of them. Everything about a flight is the full responsibility of the pilot in command of the aircraft.

    It is his/her responsibility to test the fuel and insure it is the proper fuel before each flight. The PIC must, according to regulation and common sense, inspect the entire aircraft, and also know everything that will pertain to the flight. This includes knowing about all airports that may be used for a landing, all the capabilities of the aircraft, weight and balance of passengers and luggage, including fuel. The distance required to take off, what the rate of climb will be according to temperatures and the engine performance, and so on.

    All decisions and authority rest on the pilots shoulders alone. The FAA, air traffic control, flight centers, everything, can only advise, the decision is the pilots. I should point out though, that if a pilot deviates from air traffic control instructions, he may have some explaining, in writing, to take care of.

    But once again, for your own benefit I will say it. "There is no such thing as a law or regulation that can not be justified."

    That is why there is no solution or going back, it can not be done.

    John
     
  10. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    OK a thread gets moved or edited or whatevered because it was "flagged" by a grumbler or moderator. If your post was edited then maybe it was flagged. Maybe someone with a penchant for plastic moulding didn't like plastic being dissed.

    So if you don't like this thread then flag the posts you don't like. The moderators don't typically reach in and yank out comments unless they offend someone. And the only way they can know it offends someone is if the post is flagged by the person that it offended.

    So if yo uare missing "the luv" it may just be because you didn't ask for it nicely (or in the right way, ie flagging it :) )
     
  11. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    JRB, I do not hold as benevolent a view of big business as you do. I am of the mindset that if a large corporation could find a way to get around "pesky regulations" they would. I am of the mindset that if that same company/corporation could get those regulations removed they would.

    Case in point, if an oil company could find a way to ignore the regulations regarding safety imposed on it I think they would. If that same company could find a way to protect itself from liability, like maybe by setting up a shell company to "rent or lease" it's rigs from I think it would. Then if, God forbid, they should, oh I don't know, blow a gasket and have a minor leak and then pretend it never happened I think they would try to get away with it as long as possible. then try to change the rules afterward.

    And if that same company had 27,000 "abandoned wells" dotting the gulf, each of them unmonitored how would we be able to know how much of the 50,000 bbls a day of naturally leaking spills in the Gulf were natural and how many were from "abandoned wells"?

    I guess we could just trust the word of that benevolent corporation. I mean it really wouldn't be in their interest to lie to us, would it?

    Trust but verify was a cry I heard here last year in relation to other countries, governments and politicians. I think it should also be applied to corporations, especially ones that have been historically shown to not be trustworthy.
     
  12. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Well that sux, doesn't it!

    I mean all factory workers should earn the same amount as a French Fry master at McDonald's, no matter their seniority or the years worked.

    That pesky minimum wage regulation is the biggest obstacle to our economy.

    But then how could the workers afford your expensive framing??? Or the cars and goods they manufacture...darn dilemma!!

    (*)Hey CVM.... sorry for using the word "sux" on this segment of the forum....but I couldn't find a more appropriate word....:p:p
     
  13. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm tellin'!!!

    :D:D:D:D
     
  14. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I like what Jim said!!!
     
  15. PicturedFramer

    PicturedFramer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Lets be real here. We will never go back to the days I alluded to in my previous post, and if you didn't get it I was being sarcastic.
    If we ever find a way to make things here we will, and still fall within all the guvment regulations. The only way corporations like Boeing, Microsoft and the BioMeds are able to stay in business in the US is because of the proprietary patents and expertise and all those guvment regulations that help and subsidize our economy. Will Bill Gates ever move his business to China? Or how about Boeing moving to India to make planes. Would you fly in those planes, would you take those drugs made in Vietnam? My point is that we need to have more of those types of business where the trust is worth the cost of it being made in the USA. Not making something that can be made in Thailand by slave or prison labor for practically nothing. Lets think big and global like the successful companies we have in the US now.
    Francisco
     
  16. Framing Queen

    Framing Queen CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Of course, you leave out the part about who regulates the PILOT. The pilot must be licensed. The amout of time the pilot can fly is REGULATED. The pilot must be proficient by taking tests which are government sanctioned.

    I could go on and on about pilot training regulations and the like. But, anyone who seriously believes that the USA would be better off with less regulation has only to look at the economic mess we're in now.

    AND, as far as flying is concerned, I want my pilot WELL PAID! Highest paid would be preferable. Regionals are able to get away with low pay, some co-pilots make as little as $18,000.00 per year. THANK GOD (pick one, Wiccan, Allah, Abraham's boss) for UNION PILOTS !!!

    :popc:
     
  17. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Well duh, I knew you were being sarcastic....LOL

    I was just replying in kind to Bill's usual comatose statements.;)
     
  18. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    Wow, could you explain how regulating would have kept us out of the financial mess we are now in. I thought that is what got us where we are today. Are you suggesting we do not have enough regulatory pressure on our economy?

    Remember what started the whole mess was government leaning on banks to make getting credit and home loans easier for everyone. The banks gleefully bent to government pressure, then when the whole thing collapsed, the banks accepted the blame.

    In return for that, the government pumped billions of dollars to the bankers and Wall Street to save their butts, rather than helping people in trouble with their mortgages.

    Now government is leaning on banks and writing more regulations to tighten credit policies so it never happens again. They want things to be where they were before they pressured banks into ignoring their own regulations on home loans and lending practices in general.

    John
     
  19. Framing Queen

    Framing Queen CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I am exactly. The financial collapse is the direct result of deregulation in the previous administration AND a lack of oversight in the mortgage industy.

    The Hoover administration was particularly good at deregulation. You may recall what happened.

    Government regulatory oversight has given us cleaner air & water, eliminated usary lending and provides for a safer workplace. I'll take that over any effort to revert to national smog alerts, 30% interest rates and workplace safety dictated by company profits.

    :popc:

    :popc:
     
  20. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Companies with military contracts can't subcontract to out of country companies for military parts production. That has nothing to do with patents, but with protecting States secrets.

    bill Gates is losing tons of money to China. It is thought that 1 in 3 computers in china has a licensed copy of Windows on it, the rest are pirated copies. So, Yes, I do think Bill Gates will build in China, if for no other reason than to get all his money he is due :)

    Promote Fair Trade practices with your business. If we can get vendors to only buy Fair trade then we can get slave labor in other countries ended. There was a big push to end slave labor practices in the textile industry, remember Kathy Lee Gifford and her nightmare when she found out her clothes were made by slave labor? That push has fallen by the way side, but we should really be bringing it to the forefront again.

    Remember the tylenol scare, no not the one that started the tamper proof caps :) but the one that had the tainted cotton in the bottles? We just had another drug recall because the drugs were manufactured in the Caribean somwhere. Again musty smells and potential mis-labeling.
     
  21. PicturedFramer

    PicturedFramer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    John
    Who took away all those regulations on our banks, wallstreet and all those financial institutions? regardless of the political motives, why?

    PaulN
    I meant that for JRB when he said I got it. Sorry.
    I dig what you say, I get it.
    Francisco
     
  22. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, your view of large corporations is well known, but large corporations are mostly irrelevant in paying the cost of regulations. Whether or not you favor the value of regulations, we are discussing the cost of regulations here, right?

    If you had read post #54, you might have noticed this, from that study by the U.S. Government:

    So, according to your Government, small businesses like yours and mine pay nearly all of the cost of regulations, not large corporations. And since people of your opinion will probably prevent sweeping regulatory changes, the costs will likely go higher, not lower, applying ever more financial pressure on small businesses. If you have not yet noticed it's getting more costly to run a small business, you are missing a lot.

    That is but one reason why I agree with John; that the United States of America will never again be the producer nation it once was.
     
  23. PicturedFramer

    PicturedFramer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Bob Doyle

    Is that Captain John Luke Picard (sp) -Star Trek-as your avatar? What doe the caption say?
    Francisco
     
  24. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I pinched it from another thread. It is a face plant and he is saying I'm surrounded by idiots :)
     
  25. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Paul, my statement was not a opinion on how terrible regulations about wages are to businesses, but simply an observation.

    Can you deny that salaries and wages have an impact on the cost of goods and services in this country? And, that goods made overseas are often less expensive than those made in the U.S.? And, because of that that mainland U.S. companies are in a competitive disadvantage? And, because of that disadvantage that fewer American workers are employed in high paying jobs?

    Look at the textile industry. It is virtually nonexistent in this country. Why?

    You seem to be saying that it is better not to have a job that pays $15 an hour than to have a job that pays $10 an hour.
     
  26. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bill we need to pay a living wage. Not just a Union wage or a minimum wage, but a wage the worker can live on.

    Fair Trade means that the person hired overseas gets paid a fair, local, living wage. The Fair Trade employees don't work at slave labor levels, they are treated fairly, paid fairly and work in safe conditions. So the costs of goods produced by these employees, while not at a level of cost as ours are at least closer and easier to "compete" with than the prevailing slave labor wages that OUR companies pay overseas.

    We have no textiles produced here because our companies moved to Honduras, to Bangladesh, to Columbia. They didn't move there because of better skilled workers they moved there because it was cheaper. Cheaper to pay employees, cheaper to pollute (remember stories of the Merrimack running green, blue, red?)

    If they had to produce following our regulations then they would have no incentive to move overseas.
     
  27. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Why not raise the minimum wage to 20 dollars an hour? that would solve everything in America correct?
     
  28. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Much of the production overseas, such as in China, is done by contract in plants owned and operated within the country. The plants may be privately owned, or government owned. Either way,the American company buying the goods may have little control over anything other than the specifications of the product. And sometimes, even that is a crapshoot.

    Can you picture an American company telling the Chinese government how much to pay their workers? Ha!

    Since so many American companies have moved their production overseas, that is obviously not how it works.
     
  29. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Don't be silly, Puppies. At that wage rate, our country would be overrun by Chinese slave laborers coming here for a fair wage.
     
  30. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Why not Lower the minimum wage to 1 dollar an hour? that would solve everything in America, correct?

    Beside the obvious, I added a comma.....:p
     
  31. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    well first off... i was joking. its like why even bother with a minimum wage at all if no one can really live off of it.

    i get the point of having it as in slave labor at least has to be paid 7.50 an hour.

    or hire illegals for less if you can...

    but if you aren't happy with the pay you get, get another job and don't complain. right now there are no jobs for people to take. sounds like the min wage has to go down a bit to fix some of this. but it won't.
     
  32. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    OK, but this $10 an hour will be raised by an xyz% every a couple of years or so to account for inflation, for promotions and such but that's still higher than the sweat-shop pennies per day salaries in India and China.

    And that's where industry will go, even if the salary difference is a mere .50 cents per day, multiply by a few hundred thousand employees and you'd still have companies trying to save money and ditch the US worker.

    And of course, a population with low salaries shops only at Ikea (if liberals) and Walmart (if rightwing.....:p)
     
  33. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    $20 an hour is not a living wage.
    Jim, that's not a Fair Trade principle. If a company wants Fair trade Certification then they sign a contract with the Fair Trade federation and then live by that contract. You should be behind this as it is voluntary regulation. It is regulation by the market place.
    Just because we don't operate like that does it mean we shouldn't? Do you think it is a bad idea to suggest that an American company should follow American practices when the plant isn't in America? We expect our soldiers to follow Military Rules of Engagement when they are stationed overseas, shouldn't companies follow similar guidelines?

    If our companies followed the same rules overseas that they have to follow here I think they would have a disincentive to go overseas, stay here and pay Americans to make goods for Americans.
    It really isn't a workers market right now. If you have a job you're lucky. You aren't likely to "up and quit", unless you have something else lined up first.

    Slave labor is not $7.50 an hour, it's more like $1 a week. If "slave labor" was $7.50 then we could compete with it better.

    I sell stuff in my shop that is fair trade. The gift shops around me carry similar items and sell them for less than 1/2 what I sell them for. But my craftspeople are getting a fair living wage and my customers know this and buy from me because of that. With more stores selling Fair Trade then more companies will offer Fair Trade. Prices will go up for imported goods, sure, but that will not put me out of business,and may help American workers to get more of their goods to market. Right now the goods from overseas are under priced. By getting more wholesellers to buy and trade with Fair Trade principles we can slowly change the word economy and our economy for the better.

    I know, this is where you all break out into singing kumbaya and snickering at me, but we laughed at the organic movement, saying no one will buy organic because it's too expensive. Now there are whole sections in grocery stores and walmart dedicated to organic foods. 4 years ago there was no one selling Fair Trade to speak of. I had to tell all my customers what it was about, why they should care, why it was more expensive that than similar items next door. The only Fair Trade items they knew of was the coffee in the store. Today it is in the Sundance catalog, Real Goods catalog and many of the upscale catalogs. I'll bet anything it'll be in WalMart in 3 years.
     
  34. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, I’m not arguing that people need a “living wage”, nor am I supporting the return of child labor, the fourteen hour/six day work week, or safety conditions which would make the Triangle Shirt factory seem like paradise.

    What I am saying is that regulations that insure a “living wage” and a safe work place have consequences (unintended or otherwise) – to the productivity, profits, and competitiveness of businesses that hire workers that pay them a living wage.

    That’s all.
     
  35. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God


    I think you could ask many million unemployed Americans, and a few million more who have given up looking for jobs completely, how they are enjoying their safer workplaces.

    You could also ask the millions of credit card holders how much they appreciate eliminating usury lending practices on their 30% annual interest rate they are paying.

    A one hundred dollar balance translates to $30.00 a year interest. The average American carries a $6,000.00 balance on their cards, that's $1,800.00 per year interest or $150.00 per month.

    Of course if you ask the average American how much balance they carry on their cards, they will say not a dime, they pay it off every month.

    John
     
  36. Framing Queen

    Framing Queen CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    It's interesting to note that you cite the overall minority rather than the overall majority that are heathier, safer and more financial stable because of government regulation.

    So, it seems that you advocate regression to filthy air, contaminated water, unregulated workplace practices and a totally free market financial system all similar to Herbert Hoover's administration. And, you imply that regression to that era would increase the economy.

    I'm at a total loss to see your point. :shrug: But, then again, there are those who remember the Great Depression as a time of wonderous growth in American society.

    :party:
     
  37. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bill Germany pays a living wage, they get 6 weeks a year off. They are kicking our butts in the solar race.

    But, right, that's socialist Europe, and that 's a bad thing....
     
  38. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Banks may be “safer” because of new government regulations, but “you don’t get sumthin’ for nothin’!”

    Banks that are “too big to fail” are now required to have a 10% cash reserve. That, theoretically, makes them safer.

    If they have assets of $100 million, for example, they can only lend $90 Million. That means, of course, there is less money to lend to businesses to “jump start” the economy than before when their “cash reserve” ratio was, for example, 3% and could lend $97 million.

    Again, I am not necessarily arguing against the new, tougher regulations, but there are always consequences to those regulations. In this case, the consequences are a slower growing economy.

    I guess I'm missing your point. Are you saying that businesses that have a higher cost of doing business (e.g. more worker benefits) are MORE competitive in the market? If that is true, why are goods from the Pacific rim less expensive?
     
  39. troyveluz

    troyveluz MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    This is just an observation and not necessarily pointed to anyone here.

    People who don't have or have very little money and need to take out loans to live a comfortable life, complain that interest rates are high.

    People who have a lot of money to spare and do not need to take out a loan to live a comfortable life complain that the interest rates are too low on their bank accounts.


    just my 3 cents.
     
  40. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That's why my VW was built in the Czech Republic. :p
     
  41. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well, from what I am getting here, most people do agree that bureaucracies and regulations are considerably better for America than factories. I guess that makes it understandable, since that is how we obviously vote.

    No matter how many programs to reduce the size of government that various administrations have imposed, every ten years, we have more people employed by government than during the previous ten years.

    As it now stands, if you take into account all the companies, such as defense contractors, universities, postal service, the military, federal, state, and local, government employees, subsidized farm lands, prisons, schools, libraries, and I am sure many others I can't recall, the bulk of our work force works in one form or another, works for government. They earn their living from the state.

    Like it or not, we are a socialist country, we just refuse to admit it. Heck, we could be heading toward full blown communism.

    If you had twenty or fifty people working in your frame shop and it only takes one or two to get the work out, what would the rest be doing? How would you make them feel productive and an important part of the framing company?

    My guess is you would start giving them important sounding titles and you would start setting up departments that seem important.

    How would your department managers feel if they only had a couple of people working for them? They would probably find a way of increasing their budget so they could hire more help. A manager is judged by the number of people they manage.

    OK, I guess you guys can see where I'm going with this.

    John
     
  42. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I was joking too, Puppies. But in reality, minimum wage laws provide very short-term benefits for those at the bottom of the pay scales. The long-term effect is inflation, as the increases creep into wages at all levels.

    That is, a minimum wage increase this year would benefit minimum wage workers. But by next year, all those around him would receive similar raises, in order to keep the pay rates proportional. So, eventually everyone gets paid more, which necessitates price increases to cover the added cost. Minimum wage increases are inflationary and long-term useless. It's not rocket science.
     
  43. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Yes, nothing beats low wager earners for a robust economy.

    And..... they'd rush to frame and buy Museum Glass with their pennies!

    This is the silliest and most disproved argument the Wall Street worshipers have.

    All those European countries with with higher income workers are wrong but the great economic minds here are right.
     
  44. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Your comprehension scores must have been horrendous when you were in school. All the writing here saying we need to be a producer nation and your walk away is bureaucracy... An SLP could administer the TACL or Test of Written Comprehension and suggest a remediation course for you.
    Umm, probably Grumbling :) and that would just mean more people to help solve the ills of the world..
     
  45. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    American workers are among the highest-paid on earth, and have been for decades.

    You seem to think minimum wage laws raise only the wages at the bottom of the pay scale, but it never works like that. Raising the minimum wage effectively raises all wages, which makes no long-term benefit for anyone.
     
  46. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I know this. i just didn't write it, but now you did :)

    so its all good. its more when it gets to Unions where the trouble gets moving. why are they getting paid 7.50 an hour for not knowing anything. i want a raise to 52.50 an hour instead of 50 an hour... so multiply that by 100 workers or more and badabing... Ford, Chevy, Boeing, so on... now has to charge even more for a car... not to mention all the safety features they have to put on cars due to government regulation.

    Most regulations protect you from yourself. If i wanted a new car without airbags why can't i get one?
     
  47. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jim, we could kill the disparity between the CEO and the lowest workers wages. If the CEO made 50x's or 70x's what the lowest paid employee made, instead of 400x's then maybe your comment than giving a minimum wage earner the equivalent of an extra tank of gas a week might hold a little water. But to justify the CEO's making 100's of 1,000,000's a year when the janitor gets $7.35 an hour isn't realistic. Especially if the CEO then gets a bonus of basically 5 janitors worth of pay for keeping profits high...


    I went to the minimum wage website. Did you know it was a guideline, not a law. States can pay less than the federal minimum. And they do. So if a company thinks paying minimum is gonna break them then they can pay less than minimum.
     
  48. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    melted plastic... melted plastic... melted plastic... melted plastic....
     
  49. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    I you don't stop Frankenhreading, I am calling the nearest moderator precinct!!!
     
  50. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Only to the floor set by that state. Most states have the floor set about 20 cents below the fed.
     
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