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Museum Glass

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by walknonsunshine, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. Framar

    Framar SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So I have a stupid piece of Museum Glass which I decided to donate to a project. It was a left-over so no writing on it. It has been wrapped in a box since I cut the first pieces from it.

    I cannot tell for the life of me which side is which and I cannot get it free of streaks.

    This is driving me insane.

    Any wonder why I loathe the stuff?
  2. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Mar... take a razor blade and scratch both sides in the corner. One is obviously smooth and uncoated. the other is scratchy and the coated side which goes toward art.
  3. Ray Bragg

    Ray Bragg CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Clean with Micro Fiber cloth. Spray cloth not the glass. Just moisten cloth not wet.
  4. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The photo shows how to determine which side to cut.

    Mar, when I posted this photo more than a year ago, I remember you saying you often cut the wrong side of the glass. If you're still doing that, then maybe this simple method still would not work for you. However, for those who cut the correct side of glass consistently, there is no easier way to tell which side to cut.

    Attached Files:

  5. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    I once told a new framer that if she could read the writing, the glass should be scored the other side. Trouble was, on all my offcuts where the writing is gone I write "SCORE" with a sharpie, on the score side - so, because she could read that ...................!!:faintthud:
  6. Framar

    Framar SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I finally placed it using the scored side up. Looks hateful either way. How can anyone say this stuff is so great when it shows such awful purple/greenish casts? And this is on a colored mat!

    I really think it only looks halfway passable on black.

  7. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    Mar: in total agreement with you about the agony of museum glass. While I find it easy to tell the front from the back, I detest the tedious, mind-numbing burnishing followed by the inevitable scratching of the underside.

    Thankfully there's Artglass.
  8. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    Amen! I hope they bring out a UV version of the stuff mentioned in another thread that can be cleaned with wire wool!
  9. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I thought that was called ART glass... ill have to try it tomorrow, LOL
  10. Framar

    Framar SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    We all know our customers never EVER clean the glass (or the top rails) on their frames. It makes me shudder to think of how awful Museum Glass would become in the average home. And I am not talking about slobs like me - I am talking about homes of very discerning housekeepers who could pass an unannounced white glove test any day of the week.

    "Oh yes they call it the streak......" ("boogity boogity")
  11. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Geez! Mar, I've had Museum Glass pieces hanging in my house for years and they are just fine without cleaning. If, in rare cases, I have to clean, Sprayway on KayDry paper towels works perfectly. The pieces look much better than those with "shinny" glass.
  12. mlmintz

    mlmintz CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I've had no trouble with MG, but that's not why I'm responding. The Streak?? Ray Stevens?? I couldn't stand that song when it came out, and even though I haven't heard it in years, I'm pretty certain it still sucks.
  13. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    The number of hits on this thread speaks volumes about
    the interest that must be out there for this conversation.

    Either that, or Bill Henry's computer is acting up again.
  14. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Do you think TruVue is reading this thread?

    Do ya'? Do ya'?
  15. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    Through museum-colored glasses?
  16. mlmintz

    mlmintz CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Which Do ya? The original (Roy Woods/ Move) or the second rate ELO version?
    Yes, I know it was Jeff Lynne, but RW's band.
  17. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    That is the polar opposite of what to do to clean museum glass, unless you WANT to make streaks on the glass.:icon11:

    The glass needs to be flooded and then wiped clean. Micro fiber cloths are not required. I use Scott paper towels and no problems with streaking.
  18. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I use sparkle paper towels to clean it... I find mirco fiber leave streaks as well. though on every other glass including ART microfiber are the way to go.

    People are watching this because they want to see a definitive truth about UV protection... and all we give them are arguments, and what we assume is the best... and very well could be the best, but without a non biased group who isn't selling one of the products doing the tests, will we really ever know?

    If there are groups out there that are non biased doing the tests, then maybe I have misread everything.

    Personally I am using ART glass per the ease of use... and every box of TV no matter what kind had way to many flaws at the time I switched over... I just did a jersey, and if i was using museum, I would have accidentally scratched it and would have had to start over... but since it was ART glass I just moved on with my day.
  19. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes, apparently you have misread everything. You could start with post #87 of this thread, where the source of the 97% standard was explained. But in case that isn't clear enough, here is more information...

    The 97% standard for UV filtering came from ISO 18902, developed by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), which may be the best-respected, most-independent organization on the planet for the development of all kinds of standards in numerous industries worldwide. If you actually believe the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) could be biased in any way, you should learn more about how ISO works. Start here: http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards.htm

    The Image Permanence institute (IPI) was not involved with development of the standard. The excellent IPI publication, A Consumer Guide to Materials for Preservation Framing and the Display of Photographic Images was funded by Tru Vue, but it only mentions the ISO standard. Check the top of page 7.

    There never was any connection between Tru Vue and the development of the 97% UV filtering standard for preservation framing.
  20. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    But when it was set (with no explantion as to why as far as I know) they must have known, regarding single layer glass, that only Tru Vue could meet it.
  21. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Why would ISO care about single layer glass? There are several makers of acrylic that meet the standard, and also several makers of laminated glass that block 100% of UV radiation in the designated wavelength range.

    All of the glass products that meet the standard use absorptive coatings for the blocking, so one possible explanation could be that ISO wanted to eliminate consideration of reflective coatings for UV filtering in preservation framing. Reflective coatings can effectively block radiation at a perpendicular angle of incidence, but lose their ability to block the radiation as the angle of incidence increases.

    In an case, the conservation community seems to appreciate the standard. Have you heard any conservator say the standard is too high?
  22. stcstc

    stcstc SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    is there a reason its 97 and not 100%

    or for that 90%

    is there some reasoning behind the 97, i assume some science, what i dont understand is why 97 as its so close to 100, why not just 100?
  23. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Still say that there is way too much agonizing and overthinking going on here. It is good for a retail frame shop that there is an independent standard that we can point to, both to "sell" protection to our customers and to protect us from future lawsuits.

  24. Marty Cohl

    Marty Cohl True Grumbler


    Framers...over thinking!

  25. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    So tell me how that independent standard protects the customer, when his/her Bateman still fades?
  26. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Because we offer the best available in our supply chain, based on our knowledge of the standard. What would you offer? BTW, the Bateman with better quality inks and UV glass, is unlikely to fade unless put in direct sunlight.

    How does it help if you tell the customer that standards are worthless?

  27. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    First, I am not trying to denigrate the standard or say you should ignore it. It probably would be the primary tool used by an "expert witness" in any lawsuit.

    But, some educated speculation ...
    Most of you seem to misunderstand what an ISO standard is and what the primary intent is. They are PROCUREMENT standards. They are designed to make it easy and cheaper for an ignorant purchasing agent to make large organization buying decisions without the need of dudilligence that they are not capable of.

    At the time the standard for UV protection was created, (as I recall) there were at least three companies offering the equivalent of Conservation Clear glass. TruVue, Guardian, and Denglas. They were marketing with claims of 97%, 98% and 99%, with different technologies and all of the discussions of reflection absorption.

    I wasn't there, but I have participated in other ISO standard committees. I can envision the committee sitting around saying, well, any of these three are what's available, and there isn't any good reason to materially restrict any of these companies, since the difference between 97 and 99 is not measureable and we have the other arguments about affectiveness, let's set it at 97%.

    At the time it made the most sense for instructing purchasing agents in how to specify a purchase.

    Nothing nefarious and nothing particularly scientific.
  28. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    This brings up an interesting debate.

    Looking at it from the customer's perspective, he/she can buy the best the business has to offer, but fifteen short years from now, when they go to sell it, someone tells them that the fading is noticeable. They had it in a bright room.

    So they come back to us, and we tell them that we framed it to the current standard. All they can think is, big deal - it still faded. We paid $600 to have it framed, and it faded. They know they can't touch us, but they're still very ticked off.

    My pitch is: Your Bateman will fade, regardless of what you put on it. If you want to spend big bucks on museum, go ahead, but it will fade, later, not sooner. You take the risk.

    The older 4-color offset Batemans are prone to fading, but the newer giclees will last much longer.

    We have a customer who hangs a cheap Monet in full sunlight and comes in every three years to cheerfully have it replaced.
  29. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The "big bucks" part of Museum Glass is for the anti-reflective feature. I've always made it clear that UV protection is for the most damaging, but invisible, light and does not guarantee "no" fading. The cost of that protection is relatively modest. When I show the side by side demo of Museum Glass and Conservation Clear, I emphasize that they have the same "conservation" UV blocking. I don't understand the reason to be so negative about offering the best available. If you are that negative about Museum Glass, you certainly wont have to worry about selling much of it.
  30. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    You're right - I am negative about museum. I much prefer Artglass in those situations, and less in all the others. We still get customers wanting the etched non-glare, regular, and whatever. I'll sell museum if I have to, but because of the scratching of museum's underlayer, Artglass is becoming more of what I pitch.

    Understand, too, that the area I sell in is really in a bad economic condition with government layoffs and plant closings. I have to be careful not to scare away customers by pitching what they can't afford - those that did this are all gone. I've been watching the ratio of repeat customers to new, and I'm still getting my old ones coming back. Just had an Ottawa car dealer in yesterday with a Daytona poster, and he says that his business is significantly down. These are not upselling times.
  31. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Ticked off? Why? Didn't the framer in your example talk about exactly that scenario, and how to avoid it? After all the efforts to educate framers about the harm of exposure to UV radiation and visible light, only one with his head in the sand could remain unaware. Informed framers know how to educate their customers about the hazard and how to minimize the damage. There should be no unfortunate surprises about fading, such as you describe.

    Do you actually believe using Museum Glass is necessary to reduce the damage? What about the UV filtering acrylic products available from Plexiglas or Acrylite, or Conservation Clear glass? What about advising customers to display important framed items in areas of limited light exposure?

    Is this discussion about optically coated, anti-reflection glass, or is it about UV filtering? Those are two are separate issues.
  32. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    1. Yes, I tell every customer their artwork will fade eventually. I ask them about light levels, hanging location, artificial lighting they use, and the risks. Last thing I want is to have them think they're protected with uv-filtering glass.

    2. The mention of museum glass is because we get customers asking specifically for museum glass.
  33. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I would never tell anyone that UV-filtering glazing would prevent fading. I tell them that it helps to keep the art looking as good as it can for as long as possible although it is exposed to the light required to display, view, and enjoy it. I always advise that, even with the filtration, they should avoid hanging it where it will be exposed to strong, continuous light exposure, and definitely to avoid sun exposure.

    As to Museum Glass vs. CC, I explain that they both provide equal levels of UV filtration but that MG also controls the reflections from most light sources and allows all the details to be visible. I have the TV displays, which I have reframed and which really help. I explain the difference between what most people are used to as "non-glare" glass having an acid etched surface vs. the proprietary coating on MG, which I describe as being "similar to what is used on eyeglasses to eliminate reflections" because that is something many people can relate to. Sometimes I'll say that the etched glass "softens" the image as it cancels the reflection while MG "sharpens" it.

    :kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
  34. stcstc

    stcstc SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    thanks jim

    i am relatively new to this and so didnt even know about the other 2 manufacturers

    although i do think setting an iso standard based on what is being manufactured seems an odd way to do it
  35. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    Talk about coincidence: good friend dropped by a few minutes ago - another framer bites the dust - a competitor from the next town is closing and planning to run from home. 12 miles past her the shop is for sale. 25 miles to the south another sold - the owner wanted out.

    Is there a message here?
  36. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yes, Marc Bluestone was smart (and lucky) :)
  37. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes, there has been a lot of attrition of shops in Cincinnati. I have definitely picked up business from several of them. There was a shop right across the street from me called Frame & Save that was a mid-to-low-end shop that was owned by a regional distributor that was bought out by International. They closed it in November. I've gotten a few good former customers of theirs, but I have also noticed an increase in people bringing in readymades and just wanting mats cut or sometimes fitting too. I actually miss having them there because I used to refer people looking for things I would just as soon not spend my time doing. I still like to help people solve their problem and hope that they remember and come back when they need something I do.

    I lament the attrition because of its effect on the supply chain and the viability of the industry as a whole.
    :kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
  38. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well said, Rick, and so true.
  39. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    My reply here is not about glass standards. That has been covered amply in the thread. This is about attitude, and not necessarily yours.

    The word "Pitch" really has no place in framing design, nor does the notion of "Upselling." As experienced designers, it is our job, in fact our responsibility, to show our customers various levels of protection and visual design that will enhance and protect their art to the best of our ability. You don't need to pitch or upsell in order to sell beautiful framing. If your customer trusts that you have various price options for the art, and you openly and honestly present a few of each, then with your gentle guidance, it is your customer's choice as to what materials to use. Not showing the best is a disservice to the customer. And so is only showing your very high end.

    Here's a case in point. I had a couple in yesterday who wanted to frame four pieces using bright colors on their sets of photographs of flowers taken on a recent vacation. We picked 8 ply Pure White matting, Museum Glass, and a variety of Bella, LJ, Guerrini, and Fotiou glossy colors, including a fabulous stacked combination using a Bella Lollipop color with a striped Guerrini as the inner frame. All three of us were doing a happy dance after that design was finalized. Then out came piece number five. They wanted a ready-made frame for a simple family photo. With equal enthusiasm I found them a knock-your-socks-offRoma frame made from custom remnants that was already fitted with CC glass and acid-free foam core. We added an Artique mat, and they were out the door on this one for under $79. That last one was the icing on the cake and solidified us as a framer who could adjust to their budget as circumstances warrant.

    I relate this little story because so much of this is about attitude. If you feel you can't sell MG or other premium glass, you won't. If you feel it is a rip-off, then don't even try to sell it. But if you love beautiful, elegant protective framing, you will sell the heck out of it because you believe in your product. If you respect your customer's budget, and the budget is small, you will show them your great selection of affordable options that will make them happy and bring them back. I don't think you need to be the framer in town that goes out of business if you are able to adjust to the customer's needs and offer the best of both ends.
  40. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    How do I retrieve an auto-save? I had a reply written to Kirstie that got lost.
  41. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    Second try.

    "Pitch" is a term I use here.

    "upselling" is a term introduced to me by Larson. Upselling was also introduced by Bainbridge's 4-inch corner samples.

    "Attitude" is everything: my attitude with customers is great. Many drive a 100-mile round trip to do business with me. Attitude brings me a monster repeat trade. Attitude means my customers come first. This "attitude" got me flamed by a lot of people when I described my two guarantees - it took Rob to come to my rescue. Thanks again, Rob.

    I'd like to direct a "lecture" to the many framers that actually did upsell, pitch, and screw customers into buying what they didn't need, bringing the on-lines and big boxes into the trade because they could do it cheaper, market better, and give better value.

    I also got into this business believing I could do it better, matching designs and prices to customers' expectations.
  42. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    I thoroughly agree. Those customers won't be back.
  43. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    Refugee syndrome

    We got two big orders Saturday from people who came from Ottawa in search of lower prices. Using generally-accepted direct-materials costing, I was significantly under some really wild quotes. I can't blame them - the prices they were given were prefaced by "this is 50% off our regular prices".

    Customers for life. And one selected Artglass.
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