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News Flash: Recession Not Really Over

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Paul Cascio, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    GCC = Global Climate Change. It's the new catch phrase that replaced Global Warming after it was exposed. Maybe it's less of a replacement and more of an expansion. By calling it Climate change, any and all change supports the agenda. If it's to hot, cold, wet, dry, windy, stagnate, foggy, or clear it's all proof that we are destroying the Earth.
  2. jim_p

    jim_p SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Sarcasm aside, calling it "Climate Change" is a better way of describing the results of global warming. Otherwise, you have people standing in the middle of a record-setting howling blizzard shouting "So much for global warming suckas!".

    In fact, as the average temperature of the environment increases, there is more energy in the system to make for more extreme swings of weather conditions... searing drought here, massive flooding there, brutal cold somewhere else. So although "global warming" is the phenomenon (rising average temperature), "climate change" is a more apt description of the results to the layman...
  3. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Nah, humans?? we are such benign creatures!!!

    The planet is just polluting, raping and destroying itself for the heck of it.
  4. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Back to the car thing for a minute.... sure, your hondas and toyos are assembled in the US, and they are using parts that are somewhat sourced in the US, but look up the corporate ladder. While much of the car industry revenue goes to the worker bees that assemble and provide parts, the reality is that the real money in the car industry (aside from after market parts) is in the design, testing, marketing, management of those companies. Much like a frame shop (should work for some and does work for others) the employees (read line workers) are the ones making the bulk of the $$ in a business, it's management. For honda and toyo' the real $$ flows overseas. Those folks won't be walking in your store any time soon.
  5. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    But 1000s of their employees would! The employees spend their money here in the US.

    What's wrong with that??

    GM and Ford and other companies who have factories overseas with 1000s of employees, those far away employees would never grace your shop door!
  6. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Never really "exposed". The emails that were in the "leak" showed, according to three separate reviews, "no wrong doing by the scientists". Of course [strike]Fox[/strike] The News Media ran with the Climategate story and there was little to no mention of the final decisions by the three separate investigations into it. And [strike]Fox fans, average Americans[/strike] the media still continues referring to Climategate, as if there was any wrongdoing found.
  7. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey, Bob, you tilt at your windmills and I'll tilt at mine.
  8. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    But Mr Quixote, you're "wind mills" that Fox has been pointing you toward have been systematically debunked. The "ACORN Video" -> "overly" edited, Climategate -> 3 scientific investigations found no evidence of "wrongdoing", "War on XMas" -> blown out of proportion, "Obama's gonna take your guns" -> Not gonna happen, but an oft repeated clarion call after elections and drives up gun sales, "Obama's Madrasa education" -> Really? you gonna defend that one? Even the "ham sandwich thrown at Muslim Students (fox and freinds for 2 days straight) -> hoax story.

    My "windmills" of cleaning air, water, limiting future pollution at the sources doesn't "hurt" the country, and could help the economy by targeting future markets. Your "windmills" like "Iraq has WMDs", "seconds away from attacking us" kind of got 5000 Americans killed.
  9. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, you really don't know anything about my views, if you think that's the list.
  10. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    OK, sorry then Pat, glad you're on board with protecting Union workers, Healthcare for all and GCC.

    I guess my list above should have said left wing/right wing instead of my/your :)
  11. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I guess the group will be funded once again and everyone there will get their job back.
  12. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Sadly, no, you're right about that one Jeff. After 25 years of serving the underserved they were "taken out" by a "right wing activist" who is willing to stoop to all sorts of low tactics.

    But, just realized, we're not in Warped.
  13. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    No. Blame the unions, who are supposed to represent the best interests of their members. Unfortunately, they do not anymore, if they ever did. Unions represent only the best interests of the union heirarchy and their pandering political friends. Unions extract plenty of dues from their members, but the members have no influence over how their money is spent. Call it typical collectivism.

    Most of the union workers of my acquaintance were delighted to earn more than they could have negotiated on their own for years, until their employers went bankrupt or sent their jobs overseas, because union-imposed labor costs were killing them. These days they are happier fending for themselves in non-union jobs.

    Yes, congratulations to Ford, for earning enough profit to sustain their operations, pay their workers, and satisfy all other fiscal obligations without government bailouts.

    But for GM and Chrysler, congratulations certainly are not appropriate. They failed by their own mismanagement and deserved to suffer the consequences. Their unprofitable existence does not deserve to be subsidized by txpayers.
  14. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jim, you make valid points, however you cherry pick. You lump all Unions together and blame them as a whole. Yet you pick out the "good" corporations from the poorly performing ones and laud praise on the ones you chose.

    Just two coments ago Pat pointed out that I was not accurately portraying his individual point of view. But when "attacks" or more aptly, criticisms are thrown out at me I am lumped in as a "Leftist liberal" or a "socialist". Does not matter that I, too, am an individual the media of choice of the right wing has made a concerted effort to get all "lefties" lumped into a "pinhead" group. When the left, wrongly, uses that tactic against a group, like when the existance of racists within the TP was pointed out we are dressed down for being unfair to the TP, for lumping them all in with the extremists of the group, yet the right is not dressed down for their repeated attacks at lefties as socialists. So as I distill from the news anyone with even a slight inclination to be left of center in this country is classified as a socialist while people to the right of center have varying degrees of distinction and are all individuals.

    Now all Unions are bad, but this one corporation is good.
  15. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    You never give up on mis-characterizations.

    Yeah, that voter registration fraud and bank intimidation worked out well. :nuts:
  16. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yeah, the left are the only ones accused of voter registration fraud. Voter caging, however is a method linked to the right.

    A Voter registration fraud 2004 google search turns up no mention of ACORN. But it does bring up questions raised by the left in OH, CO and elsewhere. Either the left found real cases of voter reg fraud committed by the right, or the losing party in an election is trying to find a way to accuse the winning party of cheating.

    Bank intimidation. Really? Poor bankers, they do so much to help us little people out. Oops, there goes the economy again... :) Thanks Bankers :)
  17. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    My comment was about specific car companies; you are the one who generalized about "corporations". Likewise, the unions in question are the ones associated with the companies mentioned; that would be the United Auto Workers and a few others associated with the production of car parts.

    However, if you would like to turn the discussion to a way that any labor unions have cooperated with employers, be my guest and please continue.

    What is that about? I said absolutely nothing about you, or leftists, or liberals, or socialists. Methinks you protest too much, Bob.
  18. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That may be true :)

    but it was a general comment to all the righties here, not just you. And that is what I mean, when the right addresses the left we are addressed as a group, while the right demands to be addressed as individuals. If I make a reply I am limited to only addressing the one comment, while when a comment of a lieft leaning grumbler is commented on it addresses all the left leaning posts and comments.

    But then I am sure that the right felt this way when we lefties were calling your leader a war criminal and you all mindless drones. Now I see why you all didn't like it.
  19. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah, but will ya RIOT? ;)
  20. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, my accusation of voter registration fraud by ACORN is backed up by guilty pleas, and the bank intimidations led to mortgages that are at the heart of our recent economic collapse - lending based on political objectives rather than good banking practices.
  21. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Sit ins, civil disobedience, but no rioting. Ruins your cause when "they" can focus on destruction and vandalism.
  22. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    And all I was saying is that both sides are guilty. Can't pin it all on one group or party. In '04 it was purported that in OR people were paid to sign up Republicans and got nothing for signing up Democrats. So Democratic forms either got thrown in the trash or were signed up as Republicans. The ones that got signed up wrong, it was an easy fix, but the ones that got thrown away essentially had their votes stolen from them.
  23. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah, it does make it a bit harder to stick it to The Man when he's beatin' ya with sticks.
  24. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Cameras roll both ways,. When they're there hoping to film you acting out, they catch the man acting out instead. Unfortunately, the cameras aren't rolling at lockdown. Hint, you never want to be searched by the cop whose back your protesting through out the day before...
  25. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob. there's a difference between "purported" and a guilty plea. Besides, I never made any claim other than your kind words about ACORN were misplaced.

    Am I going to see you on TV in Washington on 10/2?
  26. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    What's wrong with multiple disparate groups getting together and promoting a common goal? You and I don't share every ideal but I am sure that we have common ground some where. As far as i am concerned if the vaunted Fox News Channel doesn't like a group then that group is doing something right :)

    But, nope, not gonna be in DC on the 2nd, or on the 30th :) You gonna make it to either? Could always go as a counter protester if you felt strongly enough against the 10/2 or 10/30 marches/rallies. A rally "for" a cause does not mean "the other side" has to be stifled.
  27. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So from their website it seems like a group of groups hitting DC to get them to follow through on the campaign promises. Sounds like something that the right as well as the left could get together and support. Close GitMo, get the economy back on track, return honor to the country, end torture, bring the troops home... The list grows, something there for everyone.

    Why aren't you going? Did GB's scary words about the individual groups scare you away from the message of the rally? Just as you and I are individuals and have different ideas we do share some and would "join voices" if we both felt strongly about the same topic. As to guilt by association, well, I have seen racists and Neo Nazis at Ron Paul rallies (via you tube clips) Since Ron Paul is a libertarian and the TP is basically a libertarian movement, and has libertarians in it thus the TP must be racists and NeoNazis.

    Obviously not, but neither can you paint every group at the 10/2 rally because you don't like the voice of some of the groups there.
  28. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, you might recall that I've been saying the same for years, also that there is some good in most groups and both of the major parties.

    It is gratifying to know you are finally seeing politics my way. This is real progress.
  29. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jim, I have been in agreement for years on this point with you. That is why I keep reading your posts. We disagree at times, but I do see the good in people and groups more than I focus on the bad, and know you tend to do the same. But I don't see where recognizing a good person means that we share political views. Humanistic views yes, but not political ones.

    But I, too, am heartened to hear your subtle nod to a more progressivist turn in your political thinking. I know that is what you meant by your veiled comment of
  30. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Ironically Bob, I have noted ability and willingness to paint huge swaths of people with one brush unlike anybody I have ever met. Ever! Although I am ever thrilled to see this very canned and tiring attempt to turn each and every topic into some sort of political dart board.

    As to GW or GCC I fail to see what that has to do with the recession. Technology could help but it has to be good technology or it won't sell. If it won't sell, it won't help with the recession. Forcing people into expensive and ineffective technology or taxing current technology will only worsen the recession.
  31. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Touchy, Bob, did I say any of that? :p
  32. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Just misinterpreting again. So you gonna be there?
  33. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Now that you mention it I think I may have noticed your skill. First step in recovery is seeing the problem in yourself and admitting that it is a problem.

    I respect that in you. Good luck in your recovery.
  34. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Nah, don't want add to the count. :p
  35. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I understand that :)
  36. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Ive kept quiet so far, and then i saw this... Amen.

    And being a Ron Paul supporter, all i have to add in is... So far all we have done is tax and tax, and government spending here and government spending there...

    lets try the opposite of that and see what happens. Smaller government O NO!!! put on your foil hats.
  37. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Then all this debate about the validity of the TP must be bittersweet for you. I mean that seriously, not poking at you. Were I a RP supporter it would be really hard to watch Sean Hannity and honestly the whole Fox Crew, the ones that unfairly, unjustly marginalized RP during the election, now being all huggy kissy with the TP movement.

    RP and Libertarianism really laid the groundwork the TP is now embracing, and the TP crowd is still not willing to give RP his due. I don't get it.

    I do think if RP had gotten airtime, and had gotten recognition for his close calls and almost wins during the election campaigns that he would have stood a good chance, but the RW Media really didn't want RP running. ow they can't get enough of his love child, the TP movement :) Irony is bitter sweet.
  38. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    "We've got some difficult days ahead. But it really doesn't matter with me now, because I've been to the mountaintop... I want you to know, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land. And so I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man..."
  39. Puppiesonacid

    Puppiesonacid SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    yeah... they think RP is looney, but then his son makes big head lines... of course its trying to discredit him and make him out to be as looney as his father. Go figure. RP makes more sense than anything out there, but people are just scared of him because he doesn't think with his big government.

    Palin or Ron Paul to be the head of the TP.... I would be like Palin who????
    Sadly if she is the best chance for the TP or republicans I believe Obama will win again. I don't mind a woman running or winning... I just don't know if America would embrace her enough. Hopefully Im wrong. We need less government. We have enough laws around to keep things from going back to the 30s or so. So i wouldn't be worried at all.
  40. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Not surprising since the original Progressive Party was an offshoot of the Republican Party (and started here in Wisconsin).
  41. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I agree that it's been really bad. In fact,
    the economy is so bad that . . .

    I got a pre-declined credit card in the mail.

    Wives are having sex with their husbands because they can no longer afford batteries.

    CEO's are now playing miniature golf.

    Exxon-Mobil laid off 25 Congressmen.

    I saw a Mormon with only one wife.

    I bought a toaster oven and my free gift was a bank.

    Angelina Jolie adopted a child from America.

    Motel Six won't leave the light on anymore.

    A picture is now only worth 200 words.

    They renamed Wall Street " Wal-Mart Street."

    When Bill and Hillary travel together, they now have to share a room.

    The Treasure Island casino in Las Vegas is now managed by Somali pirates.

    And, finally...I was so depressed last night thinking about the economy, wars, jobs, my savings, Social Security, retirement funds, etc., I called the Suicide Hotline. I got a call center in Pakistan, and when I told them I was suicidal, they got all excited, and asked if I could drive a truck.
  42. MabSadie2

    MabSadie2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    OMG, don't EVER shoot Alka Seltzer out your nose!!!!!!!!:beer:
  43. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Love it Paul, that is the most factual item I have read on the internet in well over a year.:party:
  44. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    On a more serious note, we are doing much better than this time last year. Not back to 2007 levels but well on our way. Customers are still watching thier pennies, and ticket averages are lower as we would expect given the expansion and advertising of the package specials, but the volume is there in both retail and corporate, for which we are very grateful. Not ready to stop holding our breath yet, and more cautious than ever, but happier than last year at this time.
  45. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God


    So are you saying that you used to enjoy a larger average ticket that has now been diluted by customers trading down to value packages? And if so, do you envision yourself being able to ratchet back up to a higher average ticket, or do you feel you have made a deal with the devil, so to speak?
  46. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    45% over last year at this time. And this September was our 4th highest sales month of all time!

    Still 24% less than 2008 YTD though...
  47. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    I feel that customer buying habits have changed since the recession and that people are not going to easily slide back into thier free spending habits. Some articles that I have read suggest that the public have come to be satisfied searching for bargains, and that many now realize that bargain shopping is not only good enough, but preferable. The $179 cardigan at Nordstrom loses some appeal when you now know you can get something quite nice at Target for $19.95.

    Deal with the devil? Maybe, but a deal that was necessary for the times. And I don't see those times changing all that much. Discussions here have shown that more and more shops are adding "poster specials" or "framing packages" as a staple in thier shops in order to retain lower end business. Perhaps we should call it entry level business. I call it good business.

    For quite a long time now I have understood that in order to compete with mass market stores that display prices and let the customer know what to expect, we need to do the same, and we need lower priced offerings. Twenty years ago we didn't have to worry about such competition. We had no Internet and no big box stores. Now that has changed and now we have had the worst recession that I can remember in our 33 years in business. If we don't make adjustments to today's customer mindset I think we are dead in the water.

    I remember when poster specials were first introduced I knew there was no going back. We won't ratchet back up to a higher ticket. We plan to always offer a lower priced entry level price point. However, I do have confidence, and I see this almost daily in the shop, that some of our customers are moving towards more elegant framing solutions. Some never stopped buying them, but I see more slowly coming back to being willing to pay for higher end options. Will it ever be the same? No. Ironically, for us, it is a bit like going back to our roots. We are seeing more DIY, more simple jobs, and lately, more volume.

    Any good business makes constant adjustments as customer buying habits change, and ours is no exception.
  48. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    David, this is what I am hearing from other successful businesses in our area. It is especially heartening to hear it from you because you offer a somewhat higher priced product to a broad spectrum of framers. That must mean business is good elsewhere as well.

    BTW, we are delighted that we added Vermont Hardwoods to our special order line this year. Yours makes the fourth American Hardwood vendor we are showing. I have said before that in order to draw people in for any specialty one needs critical mass--a good selection. We now have a great hardwoods selection, each vendor bringing something slightly different to the table, and we are seeing our hardwoods sales increase proportionatly. Our customers love the Vermont Hardwoods natural finishes. Very classy.
  49. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Pat, I couldn't make the rally, but here's a live feed if your interested :)

    This feed from FreeSpeech seems to be coming in better :)
  50. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God


    Thanks for your reply; yes I fully understand the the underlying psychology, the recent retail market trends, 'the new normal' et al. Didn't think my questions seemed so naive that I needed preaching to about what constitutes 'good business' and what a 'good business does', though, but I'll assume positive intent.
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