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PPFA, CPF, and Modern Standards

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Smooth 1-

You are comparing apples and oranges. A doctor with one specialty and board certification in a specific field of medicine is not going to attempt to be a hospital administrator, and there are those who have that specialty who could not practice the area of specialty that say, my father has. Nor, do I believe that one has to be an MD to be a hospital administrator. We do a significant amount of framing for healthcare. One of our largest clients, UCSD Medical Center has a COO (chief operating officer) who is not an MD.

Our TRADE association promotes/supports many aspects of framing and I believe that the Board and committee members should also reflect these aspects.

I guess I still don't understand your point-

Membership in the PPFA is voluntary. Board/committee positions are voluntary and are Board Members are elected by their peers after being nominated by a committee who has vetted their qualifications.

Are you suggesting that there needs to be specific written qualifications for a board position and if so, could you please list specific things that you feel are important criteria in a point by point description?
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
...So I'm sorry if I like to look at your success as a framer before I let you tell me how to do anything, especially how to run my shop, if you can't run a successful one yourself....
Why do you choose to believe our industry's only trade association is run by incompetent framers? And why do you assume they would want to tell you how to run yours? Your assumptions are offensive.

If you cared to look at any PPFA leader's success as a framer, you could easily contact any of them, especially those you assume can't run a successful frame shop.

...I'd take lessons from Arnold Palmer who can easily point at a long and successful career, and say "I know what I'm doing" over some joe who plays in thier back yard...
Arnold Palmer played his last trournament five years ago. Considering his age and medical issues, he's probably just a duffer today. Would you take golf lessons from a guy who's just a duffer these days?

PPFA leaders change often; elections are held every year. To my knowledge all of them coming and going are, or have been, successful framers. Some of them are retired, but still want to contribute something to the industry. Most of them are actively framing, whether as storefront busines owners, home-based framers or employees.

In any case, all of them are interested in advancing the framing industry. They have good and noble intentions. What about you?
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
... I've framed original Piccassos, Francis Bacon, Lucian Frued, H. Matisse, G. Klimt, Chagall, and many more...
That's very impressive.

Are you a conservator; a scientific specialist? Just out of curiosity, what sort of training and education does it take to qualify one to work on such valuable artworks?
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Very well said. And I understand your point, but I don't think you quite understand mine. So I'll try one more time.
I started down this road here too. You're not going to get anywhere. Besides people with a firm difference of opinion to your own you just have to realize that the PPFA gets a fair bit of revenue from home based framers and some of the people who you are arguing with receive income from the PPFA, or are home based themselves. To keep up the doctor analogy, you're trying to convince the homeopathic vendor that surgery is the better option.
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
I started down this road here too. You're not going to get anywhere. Besides people with a firm difference of opinion to your own you just have to realize that the PPFA gets a fair bit of revenue from home based framers and some of the people who you are arguing with receive income from the PPFA, or are home based themselves. To keep up the doctor analogy, you're trying to convince the homeopathic vendor that surgery is the better option.
Wrong. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're simply misinformed. If you're not misinformed you're deliberately lying.

Quite a few people here on the Grumble are very active with the PPFA and have held positions either on the local level, national level or both:

Jim Miller
Pat Kotnour
Ellen Collins
Barb Pelton
Rob Markoff
Baer Charlton
Cliff Wilson
Me

I'm sure there are more, but those are just the ones I know offhand. Every one of has has volunteered many hours of effort to make our industry stronger, without receiving a single cent in return. I might also add that all task force, board and committee members serve as volunteers and have acheived far more than your cowardly sniping ever has.

You owe a lot of people an apology.
 

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
By "income" do you mean compensation for teaching a class? Again, apples and oranges.

And, if you have ever prepared for and taught a class, the "compensation" hardly covers the hours of prep. And, I might add, the people teaching are very qualified for the subject they teach (or they don't teach again) and some of them may not even be in the framing business.

I still don't get your point and you have not answered my questions regarding what you want from the Board of the PPFA.

And yes, there are home based framers who are dues paying members of the PPFA because they are FRAMERS. Shouldn't they have a voice in their TRADE association?
 

Jay H

PFG, Picture Framing God
I've only skimmed this thread so forgive me if I cover old ground. Smooth, my inclination is to agree with you but cannot as I understand your argument.

As I look around our industry I find that most of the better operators are getting the heck out of this business (retail custom framing). I could name several but Rob offers up himself in this thread so I'll just point to him as an example. There are plenty more examples as we all know. That causes a real big problem with education. We end up with professional “consultants” teaching business classes. We end up with sales reps teaching marketing. If your argument was that people with no modern retail business experience shouldn't be teaching business classes, I would completely agree. I would disagree with Rob that classes are taugh by "very qualified" people. I believe that is the exception and not the rule. I haven't taken any classes in 2 years or so. Things may be different now but I doubt it.

Your argument is that a non-retail framer cannot understand the technical aspect of building a frame. That part of our business changes very slowly. It would be relatively easy to stay aware of the changes in supplies and materials available to framers. If the PPFA created an exam with marketing questions created by people with little or no marketing experience, then I'd be right there with ya. That isn't the case though.

I don't think there is any need to ever work at or own a frameshop to understand the technical aspects of framing. I would think it would be hard to be very excel at framing unless you did it often.

Also if your complaint was that there are people that are “CPF” who I know for a fact had no idea how to frame anything, then I'd be right there with you also. I've met a few and I think that discredits the quality of the title. You could always do what I and a few thousand other framers do and ignore the whole program.

To make your point clear, I would ask you to make the clear link between custom retail framing to technically understanding framing. If that was a reasonable bridge cross wouldn't that disregard the experience of some our nations most educated framers? Those like Hugh come to mind right away.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Why do you choose to believe our industry's only trade association is run by incompetent framers? And why do you assume they would want to tell you how to run yours? Your assumptions are offensive.

Who said anything about being incompetent? Don't you make sure your accountant can perform to your expectation levels? Don't you interview possible employees first? Don't you make sure your getting the best from the best first? Or do you just take their word for it, cause hey, they have a certificate that says they know what thier doing right? So it's not ok for me to question an associations board as to thier qualifications and backgrounds?
If you cared to look at any PPFA leader's success as a framer, you could easily contact any of them, especially those you assume can't run a successful frame shop.
I plan on it. I just started here with a simple question is all.


Arnold Palmer played his last trournament five years ago. Considering his age and medical issues, he's probably just a duffer today. Would you take golf lessons from a guy who's just a duffer these days?

Are you just reaching to make a point here? I was just using a familiar name for everyone. But in any case, even to this day he is no duffer. He can still play, and does. We do his framing also.;)
PPFA leaders change often; elections are held every year. To my knowledge all of them coming and going are, or have been, successful framers. Some of them are retired, but still want to contribute something to the industry. Most of them are actively framing, whether as storefront busines owners, home-based framers or employees.
Now see, where was this answer 30 some odd posts ago? While it's still not a complete answer atleast we're getting on the same page here.
In any case, all of them are interested in advancing the framing industry. They have good and noble intentions. What about you?

My intentions are to investigate for myself the answers to my questions. Rather than just rely on what someone who knows someone heard awhile back. I wanted to know what everyone here knows about the PPFA, who they are, where they are from, and how they got to be there. Before I decide to either waste or spend any more time looking into this. Why is that so offensive?
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Wrong. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're simply misinformed. If you're not misinformed you're deliberately lying.

Quite a few people here on the Grumble are very active with the PPFA and have held positions either on the local level, national level or both:

Jim Miller
Pat Kotnour
Ellen Collins
Barb Pelton
Rob Markoff
Baer Charlton
Cliff Wilson
Me

I'm sure there are more, but those are just the ones I know offhand. Every one of has has volunteered many hours of effort to make our industry stronger, without receiving a single cent in return. I might also add that all task force, board and committee members serve as volunteers and have acheived far more than your cowardly sniping ever has.

You owe a lot of people an apology.
Yay, I get another personal insult by a PPFA member under my belt. It's a good day.

My life here got a lot easier when I realized that some people pay into things and some people get paid by things. Of course I just screwed that up again. You can discuss the semantics all you want.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
That's very impressive.

Are you a conservator; a scientific specialist? Just out of curiosity, what sort of training and education does it take to qualify one to work on such valuable artworks?
apparently just a certificate saying that I am qualified. Sorry, that is mean spirited, and uncalled for. I apologize.

I have been doing this for almost 20 years. I come from a museum/archive background. I have a Bachelors and a Master degree. That is all I am comfortable to divulge here at this time.
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
Smooth wrote in response to Jim: "Now see, where was this answer 30 some odd posts ago? While it's still not a complete answer atleast we're getting on the same page here."

Scroll back up to post #26 in the thread, where I posted a link to all of the current PPFA board members, complete with their business names and contact info. That's plenty of information for you to contact them and inquire as to their qualifications.

I suppose I could have done that myself, but I'm not interested in doing your homework for you. You are the one making the claim that they are not qualified, the burden of proof is on you.
 

blackiris

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Here's my question.........

Why would you (smooth1) think that someone on a professional board would NOT be qualified?? :shrug:

There are no hidden elections, you dont BRIBE people to be on the board......IM CONFUSED by your statements!!!!!!!! :nuts:
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
So you admit you're a troll then?
I can't really see how you get from A to B. I admit that I've been insulted over the years and that I choose to not support an association that I've seen a lot of problems with and that is a much greater benefit to those who would compete with me on an unequal footing than it is to me.
 

Cavalier

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
...I left the Transformers fandom for this?!

When I went to vocational school, there was an educational trade association called VICA -- Vocational Industrial Clubs of America. (Now Skills USA.) There were dues -- students (rather, their parents) paid $10 for the year. There were tests -- professional-level questions about not only one's chosen vocation but on how to succeed in the professional world -- and competitions. My parents felt I could use that to better myself in my career, and I learned how to be professional (without losing my lovable quirks) and put pride in everything I did. I did this for four years. I had fun and I learned so much in that time that vocational alone didn't touch.

When I came to to work at the Framemakers in 2002, it was much different than the frame shop I worked at for two years previously -- a complete 180. I learned more in six months than I did in two years. I learned about preservation techniques and the difference between conservation and non-conservation materials (previously, I was told the difference was expense. Seriously.)

I'll be taking the CPF exam in June. Since I received the books for studying, I've learned so much about my chosen trade. The information in these books have been researched, lab- and time-tested. The information meets or exceeds standards set by high-end museums and conservators, such as the Library of Congress and the Fine Arts Trade Guild.

A lot of the questions asked are items usually taken for granted. There are charts to figure out moulding footage, but if one doesn't have that available, what happens next? If the CMC was down and one needed to cut a mat ASAP, would one know how to cut one by hand? What is the different between acid-free artists' tape and linen tape? (Rhetoric, by the way.)

Why am I taking the CPF exam? Same reason why I did VICA over a decade ago: to better myself. To challenge myself. Not only as a framer, but as an artist and a professional.

But that's just my two cents.
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
I can't really see how you get from A to B. I admit that I've been insulted over the years and that I choose to not support an association that I've seen a lot of problems with and that is a much greater benefit to those who would compete with me on an unequal footing than it is to me.
Wikipedia:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Yay, I get another personal insult by a PPFA member under my belt. It's a good day.
This seems to imply that you derived some pleasure by posting comments which lead to insults. If it walks like a troll, sounds like a troll...
 

DVieau2

PFG, Picture Framing God
Interesting morning on the Grumble.

I could make this statement on three different threads but I'll make here.

I think the level of scrutiny and criticism aimed at PPFA is completely out of proportion to the cost of membership. In other industries a trade group can cost a thousand dollars or more.

For pete's sakes PPFA is $50.00 per year for the first year and $150.00 after. The score on value is about 25 to 1 in favor of PPFA.

Such a big deal over such a small business expense.

Doug
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Ok Fine. I said something against the sacred societ... no wait I didn't even do that. I told that guy he should know who he's arguing with. And people do derive an income from those who sell out of their homes as well as those who don't... you can't deny that. They sell books, they sell lectures, they rep products, they appear at meetings, they give classes.

I'm not sure why you jumped down my throat.
 

wvframer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
When I was reading this thread last night, I was presuming that there was a genuine interest in accurate information. The posts since then indicate that this is not the case. I might understand this kind of divisiveness if there were two competing framers organizations with differing philosophies. But we only have one. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of PPFA, but those mentioned here fly in the face of the facts.

I also don't understand the disparaging remarks about home-based framers. Knowledge and skill are not determined by geography. Perhaps they as a group price things lower and have a small impact on the market. But if you did not know about this before you entered the business, you should have. Marketing information is readily available from our trade association.

As for the few that have the skills and have taken the risk to publish or present, I applaud them. Most of them I know drive or fly coach to such exotic places as Pittsburgh or Indianapolis (Randomly chosen cities that are not known to me as exotic tourist locations) and stay in mid-priced motels in order to keep the cost down for the sponsoring chapters. They answer emails and take phone calls from framers without reservation and without charge.

A trade association is made up of members from all areas involved in the trade. It is not an exclusive organization of practitioners. The whole idea is to have input from a wide spectrum of the trade. There is a certain level of self interest involved at every level.

To most of you, I apologize for the soapbox. But this sniping is ridiculous and counter productive. It demands a response. It is harmful to our business.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Here's a dictionary definition of incompetent:
"inadequate or unsuitable for a particular purpose"

Who said anything about being incompetent?
You did:
Those who can't,,,teach. Huh?
Who in their right mind would hand over a piece of artwork like that to a home framer?
I have seen my share of idiot framers that carry that certification on them as if to validate their very existance...
How am I to take someone seriously who they themselves can't make the final cuts to be a professional "Master" framing career professional?
__________________________

So it's not ok for me to question an associations board as to thier qualifications and backgrounds?
That's not exactly where you started.
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
Ok Fine. I said something against the sacred societ... no wait I didn't even do that. I told that guy he should know who he's arguing with. And people do derive an income from those who sell out of their homes as well as those who don't... you can't deny that. They sell books, they sell lectures, they rep products, they appear at meetings, they give classes.

I'm not sure why you jumped down my throat.
They sell book that they authored, through PFM, Columba Publishing of the PPFA bookstore.

They rep products and in return are paid by the manufacturer, distributor, etc. not the PPFA.

They appear at meetings as a member.

They give classes at PPFA events. In return they receive travel expenses and a token amount.

If the PPFA is handing out all this money I'd like to know where my check is.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
I've only skimmed this thread so forgive me if I cover old ground. Smooth, my inclination is to agree with you but cannot as I understand your argument.

As I look around our industry I find that most of the better operators are getting the heck out of this business (retail custom framing). I could name several but Rob offers up himself in this thread so I'll just point to him as an example. There are plenty more examples as we all know. That causes a real big problem with education. We end up with professional “consultants” teaching business classes. We end up with sales reps teaching marketing. If your argument was that people with no modern retail business experience shouldn't be teaching business classes, I would completely agree.
Exactly! Thank you!
I would disagree with Rob that classes are taugh by "very qualified" people. I believe that is the exception and not the rule. I haven't taken any classes in 2 years or so. Things may be different now but I doubt it.

I was unaware of this particular point, but another very good one!
Your argument is that a non-retail framer cannot understand the technical aspect of building a frame. That part of our business changes very slowly. It would be relatively easy to stay aware of the changes in supplies and materials available to framers. If the PPFA created an exam with marketing questions created by people with little or no marketing experience, then I'd be right there with ya. That isn't the case though.
Not what I'm saying at all. There are I'm sure some recently unemployed, very good framers that didn't loose all thier knowledge, skill, and ability because they are not there anymore. That isn't my issue here. My issue here is your first point, and the fact that to be on the board, I feel you should be the standard, or the goal.
I don't think there is any need to ever work at or own a frameshop to understand the technical aspects of framing. I would think it would be hard to be very excel at framing unless you did it often.
Agreed. But in order to be able to handle high value originals, you have to take the steps to provide the place for this type of work to occur. These steps don't have anything to do with the actual framing part. Which I'm sure there are alot of framers who may be skilled enouph for this type of work, but thier work enviornment is prohibitive of it. Hence, if a board member who would like to come in and give me good advise about framing who has only ever worked from home, I would probably end up teaching them a bunch of things they aren't aware of before we ever even start on the framing part. Yet they came in representing themselves as the standard to which all framing is done???? I have a hard time with that.
Also if your complaint was that there are people that are “CPF” who I know for a fact had no idea how to frame anything, then I'd be right there with you also. I've met a few and I think that discredits the quality of the title. You could always do what I and a few thousand other framers do and ignore the whole program.

Again, well said and to the point Thank you. This point is why I am asking the tougher questions and digging for myself.
To make your point clear, I would ask you to make the clear link between custom retail framing to technically understanding framing. If that was a reasonable bridge cross wouldn't that disregard the experience of some our nations most educated framers? Those like Hugh come to mind right away.
Thank you for the input.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
..I have been doing this for almost 20 years. I come from a museum/archive background. I have a Bachelors and a Master degree.
Lots of people have qualifications similarly described. Two degrees in a field unrelated to framing, as most of them are, would be irrelevent. Twenty years' experience is no assurance of competence in protective framing of valuables. Heck, even I have more experience than that, and there are 30-year framers who think it's OK to mount art using acid-free masking tape.

That is all I am comfortable to divulge here at this time.
Aw, shucks. I was hoping you would give us some indication of how you are qualified to question the credentials of any other picture framer. Instead, you've chosen to hide behind a cloak of anonymity.

You could be the world's greatest framer, but evidence of anything like that is lacking here.
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
They sell book that they authored, through PFM, Columba Publishing of the PPFA bookstore.

They rep products and in return are paid by the manufacturer, distributor, etc. not the PPFA.

They appear at meetings as a member.

They give classes at PPFA events. In return they receive travel expenses and a token amount.

If the PPFA is handing out all this money I'd like to know where my check is.
Ok, so I see... you don't disagree with my general idea but you hate how I said it and you're making hay out of the technicality of how much money actually flows through the PPFA itself.

My point is very simple. "If you are going to argue about the viability of home based framers don't expect to get very far with home based framers or the people who derive income from them." Or PPFA members or whatever else.

It's why I stopped arguing. The quicker you realize the politics and associations the easier your life is.

Note that I do not have a problem with people making an income from all these things I mentioned, not at all. I really don't think it's productive to argue with them in an open forum.

I thought whoever this guy is he might realize the same.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Here's a dictionary definition of incompetent:
"inadequate or unsuitable for a particular purpose"



You did:




__________________________



That's not exactly where you started.
Lots of people have qualifications similarly described. Two degrees in a field unrelated to framing, as most of them are, would be irrelevent. Twenty years' experience is no assurance of competence in protective framing of valuables. Heck, even I have more experience than that, and ther are 30-year framers who think it's OK to mount art using acid-free masking tape.



Aw, shucks. I was hoping you would give us some indication of how you are qualified to question the credentials of any other picture framer. Instead, you've chosen to hide behind a cloak of anonymity.

You could be the world's greatest framer, but evidence of anything like that is lacking here.
But I'm not posing as a board member of said association with great information to pass on to you about how to run a successful framing business. And both my degrees are related as well.

It's obvious that I must have hurt your feelings at some point. Apparently it was the "Those who can't.... teach." comment. To be clear, I meant run a successful business as the PPFA website seems to be so geared towards. So, if some apology on my part will help you sleep better tonight, then I am sorry if I said something that hurt you. Can or will you help me with the info? Or is your ego to bruised to look thru the steam on your glasses at this point? If so, then we should just part ways and agree to disagree.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Smooth wrote in response to Jim: "Now see, where was this answer 30 some odd posts ago? While it's still not a complete answer atleast we're getting on the same page here."

Scroll back up to post #26 in the thread, where I posted a link to all of the current PPFA board members, complete with their business names and contact info. That's plenty of information for you to contact them and inquire as to their qualifications.

I suppose I could have done that myself, but I'm not interested in doing your homework for you. You are the one making the claim that they are not qualified, the burden of proof is on you.
I am looking into your link. I am just doing some light info gathering right now. I'm talking to the people who talk the most first. Then I'm going to start my own research on the PPFA. Then I'll look into alot of other things along the way. This is just the very first step. Actually it wasn't even a planned step. I just asked a question, and got all this in return! I think I've learned more about the posters and the general attitude of the Grumble more than real information about the PPFA so far.
 

RParrish

PFG, Picture Framing God
It's more likely the way you said, like many internet postings, people shoot it off with little thought on how or what they are saying, miscommunication ensues.

I have a similar background and have worked in high end art galleries and then struck out on my own 15 + years ago. Two years ago I joined the PPFA and earned my CPF. After studying all the recommended reading I was awakened to how much more there is/was to learn and what I have learned was immediately put into practice in my shop.

Since I have joined I have attended a few meetings and in each one I have come away a better framer. Think you know how to wrap fabric mats and liners? Take a class with Baer!!! Mounting unusual objects watch Pat Katnour demo her Attach Ez. I am still trying to get to one of the conventions.

You get out of it what you put into it. If your such a wealth of knowledge joining would be a good way to share your knowledge with others and if you really have desire to learn the PPFA is just one avenue you can choose to take.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Here's my question.........

Why would you (smooth1) think that someone on a professional board would NOT be qualified?? :shrug:

There are no hidden elections, you dont BRIBE people to be on the board......IM CONFUSED by your statements!!!!!!!! :nuts:
So your the type that sees a degree on the wall and thinks Yup, I'm in the right place?
True story:
I went to a local ad agency to help come up with some designs for logos and maybe consider how to best appropriate a budget for advertising. The person they put me with was very well dressed, and seemed to be very knowledgable about advertising and how to come up with a good strategy. He claimed he was the chair person for some board of advertising here in the state. While I was in his office, I read his very impressive degree and certification display. (Not so very well framed though I have to say.) So I happend to take a picture of the framed degree to use as an example for another purpose. (The corners were v-nailed but never glued, and enouph time has gone by that the corners have opened up, or maybe due to some rough handling this occured. So I was going to show this to someone as a point. When I noticed something odd about the Masters degree. There were two words mispelled, and a grammatical error on top of that. It made me suspicious. So I called the college. No one had ever attended that college with that name. They have no records of him at all. So upon my next visit, I looked into a few more of his certifications and found all but some 3 day marketing course was all he ever really attended. I went to his employer with this info. Within a week, he was dismissed, my money returned and huge apology on behalf of the company.
I haven't accused anyone of being bribed, or fixed elections or anything of the sort. In fact, until this thread, I didn't even know that there was a voting process. So why is it wrong to check on someone who claims authority in any field?
 

RParrish

PFG, Picture Framing God
So your the type that sees a degree on the wall and thinks Yup, I'm in the right place?

I haven't accused anyone of being bribed, or fixed elections or anything of the sort. In fact, until this thread, I didn't even know that there was a voting process. So why is it wrong to check on someone who claims authority in any field?
Okay now your just putting words into peoples mouths, painting them with a broad brush yet asking for detailed accounting, if that is not insulting I don't know what is! Do you seriously carry on a conversation face to face like this?

Countering generalities with specifics or vice versa. Without a common level of understanding there can be no meaningful conversation.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Perhaps you should have done your info gathering first before hurling insults and innuendo.
You know, with the thousands + post counts I've seen on some of the members here, I would have thought them to have learned not to take things on here so personnally. I haven't hurled any insults or innuendos unless your trying to read that into them. I've just asked a question and it's been about home based framers vs. shop owning framers ever since. If it doesn't matter to you, then why does it bother you that it matters to me? For whatever reason.

Let me say this:

If the PPFA's website was geared towards framing craftmanship, knowledge, certifications, and classes only, I wouldn't have any problem with home based framers and thier status on the boards and as members. But, the PPFA's website claims they can help make sure my showroom doesn't look like mars. If that was written by a homebased framer, then I guess I have a problem with it. I mean, come on, what technique have they found works so well in this economic climate? Why aren't they practicing it in thier own shop then if it's so great?
"Well, I don't actually have a shop and a showroom, but this is sound advice, and I know what I'm talking about." My response would be "Really? How?"

So that's why I asked the question I did.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
But I'm not posing as a board member of said association with great information to pass on to you about how to run a successful framing business.
Most PPFA education -- presumably what you mean by "great information" -- is related to technical framing topics, and not about how to run a business. That said, the PPFA educators who teach business classes are pretty well vetted. If you have information to the contrary, why not name names?

On that score, what are your rules about who can give business advice? Would the teacher have to be a framer currently operating a million-dollar buisness? $500,000? $200,000? Would the teacher have to prove his/her net worth before qualifying to teach? If so, what's the minimum net worth, or annual net profit, you would consider worthy of a framer giving business advice?

How would you feel about a framer who has downsized, failed, or nearly failed -- and wants to help framers avoid his own mistakes? Could he/she be credible as a business adviser, or not?

How about a successful photographer or photo processor, who knows absolutely nothing about framing, that has ventured sucessfully into the framing business as a diversification, hiring framers to do the work? Would he/she be qualified to give business advice to other photographers pondering a similar path?
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
So, let's assume we've all had some misunderstandings.

You now know that officers in the PPFA at both Chapter and National (international?) level come from all areas of the Picture Framing Trade. They are nominated and elected. They volunteer their time to improve the state of the industry, with their best attempt at policy and program decisions.

They hold no authority, claim no authority, nor make any attempt to excersize any authority over anyone.

The PPFA Mission Statement:
PPFA leads, unifies, and serves the art and framing industry as an advocate for its members and by offering programs that elevate professional standards, enhance profitability, and expand sales.

The only thing in the statement that might be misconstued is the word "leads" and I hope we can all accept that the word is not intended to convey authority, but more that as a trade organization we need to get in front of issues and problems in the industry.

We are made up of a collection of individuals. Individuals with our own strengths and weaknesses, but we are all trying to better the industry collectively and individually.

We make progress and me make mistakes, but the more we band together, the more likely we are to succeed.
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
You know, with the thousands + post counts I've seen on some of the members here, I would have thought them to have learned not to take things on here so personnally. I haven't hurled any insults or innuendos unless your trying to read that into them. I've just asked a question and it's been about home based framers vs. shop owning framers ever since. If it doesn't matter to you, then why does it bother you that it matters to me? For whatever reason.

Let me say this:

If the PPFA's website was geared towards framing craftmanship, knowledge, certifications, and classes only, I wouldn't have any problem with home based framers and thier status on the boards and as members. But, the PPFA's website claims they can help make sure my showroom doesn't look like mars. If that was written by a homebased framer, then I guess I have a problem with it. I mean, come on, what technique have they found works so well in this economic climate? Why aren't they practicing it in thier own shop then if it's so great?
"Well, I don't actually have a shop and a showroom, but this is sound advice, and I know what I'm talking about." My response would be "Really? How?"

So that's why I asked the question I did.
You're really begging the question as to whether or not anyone on the PPFA board is a home-based framer. You yourself admitted that you had not even looked into it yet before you questioned their qualifications. That's assuming that home-based or not is even relevant.

Why does it bother me? Because I know a lot of the people you're bashing and painting with a broad brush. I know their qualifications, and I know that they and many others in the PPFA have put in many thousands of hours of work without the huge monetary rewards you seem to think they're all getting.

It's insulting when you come in here cloaked in the anonymity of your screen playing Internet Tough Guy and degrading everything they do.

As I said before, perhaps you'd be willing to put your name on next year's ballot and show us all how it's done.
 

RParrish

PFG, Picture Framing God
Smoothy so by your "standard" maybe the CEO of Micheal's of Jo Anne Fabrics should be the on the board, would that be okay?
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
... I noticed something odd about the Masters degree... So I called the college. No one had ever attended that college with that name...
If you are suggesting that PPFA leaders include fraudulent liars such as the one you describe, perhaps you may need a reality check.

In our little industry it would be very difficult for a fraudulent liar to gain a prominent position among his/her peers, over a period of years, as an expert in framing technology or business operations.

If you happen to know of a framer, especially in a prominent position, who claims credentials or authority fraudently, then we would all benefit if you rat out the lying S.O.B.

So why is it wrong to check on someone who claims authority in any field?
Oh, it's not wrong to check on anyone who claims authority. If that is now your purpose, then you should contact the individuals whose names were listed earlier, and require them to prove their credentials to you.

Let us know how that works out.
 

annaluna

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Smooth 1, If you think you haven't been insulting, I truly feel sorry for you. Your blaring arrogance and elitist air are disgusting. You may very well be THE MOST GLORIOUS FRAMER ON THE PLANET, but I bet you're one of loneliest as well.

I would think you would know that there is more than just black and white.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I've just asked a question and it's been about home based framers vs. shop owning framers ever since. If it doesn't matter to you, then why does it bother you that it matters to me? For whatever reason.
Perhaps because you are unfamiliar with history around here, you stumbled into the "third rail" of The Grumble; PPFA bashing. It has provided amusing sport in the past, and here we go again.

If you wonder why the responses are less than friendly, it is because we have already established (long ago and repeatedly) that the home-based vs. storefront debate is always brought up by storefront elitists who think home-based framers are all incompetent hobbyists. That is how your opening post came across, and that elitist attitude is still just as offensive as it always has been.

the PPFA's website claims they can help make sure my showroom doesn't look like mars. If that was written by a homebased framer, then I guess I have a problem with it. I mean, come on, what technique have they found works so well in this economic climate? Why aren't they practicing it in thier own shop then if it's so great?
And aside from bashing home-based framers, you have implied that PPFA is operated by people doing things they are completely unqualified to do. Where did you get the idea that a home-based framer would be teaching others how to put together a retail storefront? It makes no sense.

Just in case you're questioning my credentials on this, I have been an active PPFA member and an operator framing storefronts for 22 years. I have earned the CPF, MCPF, GCF, and served on more PPFA committees and task forces than I can recall.
 

blackiris

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
So your the type that sees a degree on the wall and thinks Yup, I'm in the right place?

So why is it wrong to check on someone who claims authority in any field?
Easy there turbo...............I never said it was wrong to check up on people and find out what they are about.

I think there is a lot of things to learn in this industry......weather they have "credentials" or have framed for 5 years......or 35 years.....they MIGHT just have something YOU can learn from..........

You take what you want from the people teaching in this industry......EVEN IF THEY ARE HOMEBASED OR NOT.......they are only here to help you!!! Who the EFF cares where they frame at!

Heck......sometimes I think they are smarter not to have the over head and barrage of stalkers I deal with everyday. :nuts:

Its just not cool to insult people. Seems like you are trolling and trying to get a reaction out of people to me! :shrug:
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Perhaps because you are unfamiliar with history around here, you stumbled into the "third rail" of The Grumble; PPFA bashing. It has provided amusing sport in the past, and here we go again.

Your right. I'm new here and I had no idea that this was such a sensitive topic. If I had known, I may have phrased my original question differently. I do apologize to everyone for that. Lets say that I type with my voice in my head, and I think some people here are reading it with another, and I should be more sensative to that.
If you wonder why the responses are less than friendly, it is because we have already established (long ago and repeatedly) that the home-based vs. storefront debate is always brought up by storefront elitists who think home-based framers are all incompetent hobbyists. That is how your opening post came across, and that elitist attitude is still just as offensive as it always has been.
I should have done a search first. As I realize now when it is way too late. So agian, as a senior member and PPFA expereinced person, maybe you should have also been more willing to hear me out first. I am unacustomed to this forum format. So I hope you can see my point when I say that this entire thread has been an opprotunity for some senior member to be more willing to put down the defenses and actually try to understand and listen, then give the information in a non hostile manner. I admit to my own hostility, but as the new person on your forum, I think it was safe to say that the attacks came swiftly and consistantly as well.


And aside from bashing home-based framers, you have implied that PPFA is operated by people doing things they are completely unqualified to do. Where did you get the idea that a home-based framer would be teaching others how to put together a retail storefront? It makes no sense.

If asking these question means implications, that's not my intentions. I truly have some questions. In fact alot more that I'm not going to ask now. I see this isn't the place for this.
Just in case you're questioning my credentials on this, I have been an active PPFA member and an operator framing storefronts for 22 years. I have earned the CPF, MCPF, GCF, and served on more PPFA committees and task forces than I can recall.
I'm not. But it does help to know that I am talking to someone with expereince in the PPFA. Which makes my point again. Should I talk to someone who is not a PPFA member to gain an understanding of what and how the PPFA works? Or, does the experience you have listed make you more qualified to answer those questions? Which was my original question regarding the business status of the board for the PPFA on how to run a storefront business. Thank you for helping me make the point clear again.
I'm not argueing the craftsmanship or the knowledge of a homebased framer. I was informed that the PPFA board members are all home based framers. So when I went to the website and saw it more geared to running a frame shop, I was puzzled. I thought it would be good to ask the question here and get some clarification on this. Instead it turned into all of this. I'm sorry everyone. I really did not mean for this to come out in that manner.
 

FramerDave

PFG, Picture Framing God
I'm not argueing the craftsmanship or the knowledge of a homebased framer. I was informed that the PPFA board members are all home based framers. So when I went to the website and saw it more geared to running a frame shop, I was puzzled. I thought it would be good to ask the question here and get some clarification on this. Instead it turned into all of this. I'm sorry everyone. I really did not mean for this to come out in that manner.
For the love of God...

Once again, and I'll type very slowly for you:

1. You should have verified that information before you stated your opinion of whether or not they were qualified. To do so is insulting and, well, uninformed.

2. You were given clarification and yet did not let it drop.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Easy there turbo...............I never said it was wrong to check up on people and find out what they are about.

I think there is a lot of things to learn in this industry......weather they have "credentials" or have framed for 5 years......or 35 years.....they MIGHT just have something YOU can learn from..........

You take what you want from the people teaching in this industry......EVEN IF THEY ARE HOMEBASED OR NOT.......they are only here to help you!!! Who the EFF cares where they frame at!

Heck......sometimes I think they are smarter not to have the over head and barrage of stalkers I deal with everyday. :nuts:

Its just not cool to insult people. Seems like you are trolling and trying to get a reaction out of people to me! :shrug:
Ok. well you asked me why I had reason to question them in the first place. Am I the first one to do this?

It's one thing to offer advice as a fellow framer, it's another to use the status of a PPFA "whatever" as a way to establish authority in this field. When you take that step, then you give the right to others to question you and verify you. So, How do we do that here? (Which should have been my original question I suppose.)

I'm not trolling. (I had to look that up. I've seen that reference here a couple times but not directed at me.)
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Should I talk to someone who is not a PPFA member to gain an understanding of what and how the PPFA works?
Huh? If you were planning to buy a car, would you ask Chevy owners their opinions of Fords?

Now that several of us have found our blood pressure meds, maybe we should try the conversation again.

If you want to know how PPFA works, your best information would come from PPFA. You can reach them through their web site, or you can call the headquarters in Jackson, Michigan; 517-788-8100.

Or, you can get all the opinions you want here. But in order to get reasoned responses instead of emotional reactions, try starting a new thread with a question something like:
"How does the PPFA work?"

But remember, PPFA bashing is considered good sport for some folks around here.

Oh, and one more thing. You will receive much better consideration by the majority of Grumblers if you fill out your profile. Y'see, we always wonder what anonymous people are trying to hide.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Huh? If you were planning to buy a car, would you ask Chevy owners their opinions of Fords?

Now that several of us have found our blood pressure meds, maybe we should try the conversation again.

If you want to know how PPFA works, your best information would come from PPFA. You can reach them through their web site, or you can call the headquarters in Jackson, Michigan; 517-788-8100.

Or, you can get all the opinions you want here. But in order to get reasoned responses instead of emotional reactions, try starting a new thread with a question something like:
"How does the PPFA work?"

But remember, PPFA bashing is considered good sport for some folks around here.
I actually have a new found respect for you Jim Miller. Thank you. I will call the number. I will ask my questions. I will determine for myself the truths I am looking for.

I am not here to bash the PPFA. or Home based framers for that matter. I offer a sincere apology if it came out like that. Please everyone, accept my apology, with the understanding that I had no idea that these topics were sitting on an active fault line. I do tend to be a very passionate individual when it comes to framing, and my business. And I do understand that many of you here probably feel the same way. It was actually good to find some passion in this dead economy. I hope you can also understand that really none of us can afford to make any big mistakes here. So I came here with the original intent to just get some information straight. I will say that I have seemingly found out that I have been somewhat mislead by a certian individual with whom I thought knew more about the PPFA, and the website. An individual who seems to have misrepresented their knowledge. That doesn't mean I agree with everyone here, but I will take this lesson on how to post seriously.

I have been reading the other thread titled " What do you want from the PPFA." It actually has been very helpful in answering some of my other questions. I have been reading and doing some studying along the way here.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Huh? If you were planning to buy a car, would you ask Chevy owners their opinions of Fords?

Which was why in the beginning I felt if it was true about home based framers making up the board and being the PPFA, I was concerned as to why I would want to become a member as a storefront owner, with regards to running the shop, not the quality of work, and knowledge base. I'm going to give a quick example ok? If I wanted to know if by removing the pictures in the window to allow more customers to see into the showroom, is that a good idea or have you found that images in large store front windows to be more appealing to outside customers? How would a 20 year homebased PPFA board member be able to help me with that question? Should I have more computers in the showroom or fewer? Does anyone here use the photo aid system for doing design layout in thier showroom? I have alot of these types of questions. Hence, my very first question needed to be answered. In which I do think it makes a difference if your a homebased framer vs a storefront framer. Just like I wouldn't be able to answer questions like how do you keep you work away from your living space at home or related issues to being a homebased framer.
Now that several of us have found our blood pressure meds, maybe we should try the conversation again.

If you want to know how PPFA works, your best information would come from PPFA. You can reach them through their web site, or you can call the headquarters in Jackson, Michigan; 517-788-8100.

Or, you can get all the opinions you want here. But in order to get reasoned responses instead of emotional reactions, try starting a new thread with a question something like:
"How does the PPFA work?"

But remember, PPFA bashing is considered good sport for some folks around here.

Oh, and one more thing. You will receive much better consideration by the majority of Grumblers if you fill out your profile. Y'see, we always wonder what anonymous people are trying to hide.
I hope that explains my original position better.
 

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Smooth 1-

I hope you will post on the other thread what your expectation would be for a trade association -

What I have found with the staff in Jackson and the board (past, present, and future) is that they listen and do respond.

I can assure you that I am taking a hard look at the website to see what information is there and see if I can see it "through your eyes." I know that through feedback, it can be made better.

Jay H-

I sure hope that you filled in your evaluation at the end of the class you were not happy with as the evaluations are scrutinized.

I also think your blanket statement that the people currently teaching clases are unqualified is unfounded and I think the education committee has done a great job in vetting those who are currently teaching.

Please tell me the truth- have you looked at the class offerings at this year's convention and who is teaching them? I don't think there is a single educator teaching who isn't tops in the aspect/subject of the profession they are teaching.
 

Smooth 1

True Grumbler
Smooth 1-

I hope you will post on the other thread what your expectation would be for a trade association -

What I have found with the staff in Jackson and the board (past, present, and future) is that they listen and do respond.

I can assure you that I am taking a hard look at the website to see what information is there and see if I can see it "through your eyes." I know that through feedback, it can be made better.

Jay H-

I have alot to learn about the PPFA and thier mission to be of any real value at this point. I appreciate your attention and attempt to understand first.
I sure hope that you filled in your evaluation at the end of the class you were not happy with as the evaluations are scrutinized.

I also think your blanket statement that the people currently teaching clases are unqualified is unfounded and I think the education committee has done a great job in vetting those who are currently teaching.
I never made that statement. As I said in that direct post, I was unaware of that point." As I agreed with the original poster who also said they haven't attended any classes in the last 2 years, but thought there might not have been any change.
Please tell me the truth- have you looked at the class offerings at this year's convention and who is teaching them? I don't think there is a single educator teaching who isn't tops in the aspect/subject of the profession they are teaching.
Yes, I have. In passing and with a distant eye. I am willing to "relearn" the PPFA and what it encompasses. Heck, maybe some day I will speak at a meeting regarding the misinformation on the PPFA huh? LOL!!!:D
 

Mike Labbe

Member, Former moderator team volunteer
Smooth1,

I think things got off on the wrong foot, and I'd like to welcome to the Picture Framer's Grumble Forum.

As you can see, many of us are passionate about the industry. I think this is a good thing. After doing some research, I believe you'll see that you were misinformed about PPFA and the volunteers.

Our shop has been involved as a PPFA member since we opened in 2002, and the benefits have far outweighed the small yearly dues. After being a professional framer at several shops for about 15 years, Andy studied the CPF exam books and passed the exam. We thought we knew everything about framing, but gained many gems that were immediately applied to improve the business. Best practices and treatments are always evolving, and PPFA keeps us educated and informed. This is why he attends periodic re-certification classes.

The local meetings are outstanding, and give us a chance to meet with fellow framers and with our local vendors. Guest speakers and experts are brought in to further our education at these meetings, and we work together as a common force to help each other out. We have made so many (peer) friends through PPFA, and keep in touch to support each other. PPFA offers a private forum, such as this one, monthly newsletter, framing competitions, a referral website, etc. Then there is the national convention, with many educational opportunities for those inclined. http://www.pmai.org/pma2010_ppfa.aspx?id=18440

I believe there is a strong chapter in central Florida, and I'm sure they would benefit from your participation. I can see that you share the same passion for this industry as other participants of this thread.

With the industry shrinking, I think this type of organization is just what we need to work together for a common cause. It's a win-win, and beyond bickering, in my opinion. My only confusion is why EVERY framer isn't involved with our industry's only trade organization.

Best Regards,
Mike
TPFG Moderator Team
Get The Picture
Lincoln, RI
 
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