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PPFA revamps Find-A-Picture-Framer website

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Cliff Wilson, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    Would you like to know how much my royalty checks for the three guideline books I have helped write have totaled? Exactly $0.00
    Care to guess how much money I have made working on the Certification Board the last three years? $0.00
    Go ahead and guess how much money I've made serving on the PPFA Board of Directors since last year. It's $0.00
    Who has had virtually no involvement in revamping the FAPF website? This guy.

    If someone is getting rich off of the PPFA it sure isn't me and I'm getting sick of this silly argument.

    Oh, wait a second, I forgot one thing. In the spirit of full disclosure I should reveal that I have received one free copy of each of the guidelines I have helped with.
  2. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    As a way to demean the CPF and MCPF programs, some framers say the credentials do not impress consumers and lack marketing value. Curiously, those same framers now realize that PPFA is providing the marketing value they have said is lacking, and they resent it. Do some framers undervalue that aspect of earning the credentials? Will some framers reconsider certification, now that the credentials are thought to impress customers?

    Note: The main purpose of the PPFA certification programs has never been to impress customers. The main purpose of PPFA certification programs is (and has always been) to provide the best-planned framing education in the industry, and to verify achievement of certain levels of knowlege and skill, and to provide continuing education. Certification is for framers, not necessarily for consmuer marketing.
  3. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Whoa...walk it back Osgood and read my question again. Don't get anything in a wad just yet.

    I asked if the people that write the guideline book receive money when those books are bought, AND are those same people people who wrote the directory that shows a preference to framers who have received the CPF/MCPF designation. Simple question...

    Sometimes I wonder if the people who serve in a volunteer capacity truly believe that they should be above reproach when members or potential members call out questionable practices. The old answer, "that's how we always did it in the past" just doesn't fly. Social networking is a lot bigger part of business then it was years ago when these directories were first written.

    Pat and Nicole's concerns are valid, regardless if the work was done by a volunteer or a paid consultant.

    If those who volunteer feel they are being criticized unfairly then that's their demon to deal with.

    I personally feel those volunteers don't get enough accolades for all they do, so here's my contribution.
  4. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Again you are missing the point. Just because a framer does not have a CPF or MCPF does not mean they don't have the same skills and someone with the credentials.
    And you guys wonder why there are so many framers out there that will never be part of this organization ......
  5. mbboston

    mbboston CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    We went quite far from the topic. We are talking about Find-A-Picture-Framer website
    If done right, we have a chance of being at the top of different framing searches.

    The key questions are:

    -Why are listings not uniformed- some go by the member's names and some not
    -Why is a zip code search not producing expected results
    -Business description is not always adequate. Consumers would benefit if this field could be expanded and contain more options describing a business. This should be the place to list certification.
  6. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Again, the question is not in the value, or lack there of, of earning the credentials.

    PPFA members pay dues, one of those benefits being a listing in a directory that they are found lower down in search queries. Do they pay the same price for this service? Regardless if those with CPF/MCPF credentials have paid more over time for books, classes, review materials, they should be on equal footings when it comes to searches.

    Search engines are not the place for it if the PPFA is charging the same price to all.
  7. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    No one is given preferential placement due to credentials. The credentials used to, but have NOT for some time, effect placement.

    Curiously, not that they wouldn't have been welcome to help, but, I don't believe anyone involved in the certification or guidelines was involved in the recent rework of FAPF. I can't speak to the initial design, because I wasn't involved.
  8. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'm sure the volunteers will appreciate your contribution!

    I mentioned the unrelenting criticism of volunteers, because it crops up on a regular basis and has been defended by someone stating that they are volunteers, on many occasions. It's quiet tiresome to have the same 'questioning of their motives' arising regularly!

    As others have said, PPFA is criticised for not promoting these designations enough and when they do promote them they are criticised for doing so.

    Some believe that it is important that CPF and MCPF framers have that status listed and some don't. I'm one of the people who do think it's important. If anyone doesn't, they are entitled to their opinion!
  9. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I'd like a straight answer. Are you going to change it or not?
  10. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    That's perfectly true!

    Also true:
    Every framer who has CPF or MCPF has a high level of knowledge!
    Not all framers who do not have a CPF or MCPF have a high level of knowledge!

    Consumers can review framers websites, social media, advertising, promotions or get personal referrals to gain information when they are seeking a framer!

    The PPFA find a framer site is another method for consumers to look for a framer!
  11. mbboston

    mbboston CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I just came across this:


    This business is listed three times. Do they pay three memberships? This is a perfect example of mixing apples and oranges. We are either going to list businesses or individual members. PPFA membership is not an individual one, therefore listing individuals is quite inappropriate.
  12. Grey Owl

    Grey Owl SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    First, thank you all for your efforts. This new version is much better than the prior ones.

    I did notice. If I click on the frame shop name, i get a link to my website site.

    However, if i click on " more info" I get the phone number and website name (eg Greyowlframing.com) but if I then click on the website name, it will NOT link to my website.

    I also note that the CPF or MCPF designation shows up after the name of the individual, not the shop. And the names show up before the shop name. Even though I do not have a CPF, I don't have a problem with this.

    Yes, I have studied all of the materials, (and continue to study), even taken the pre-test, but have not taken the CPF. But it is just like CPA 's, your company may not do all of the items on the CPA exam, and you may not agree with all of the questions, but the designation shows you have worked the amount of time required, and passed the test.
  13. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    You don't need a CPF to be framer. Thank god.
  14. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    And I don't know that there is a perfect answer to this. Yes, the CPF or MCPF shows up after the framer's name because that is who is certified. It is a designation for the person only, not a business. So that showing up in the listings is always going to be dependent on the member keeping the PPFA up to date. If you hire a CPF or MCPF, you should let the PPFA know so that it can be added to your listing.

    This is a good time for a reminder: Every PPFA member should check his or her information in the directory periodically and contact Nick Shaver with any changes.
  15. John Ranes II CPF GCF

    John Ranes II CPF GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Hi Russ,

    Actually anyone else who is a PPFA member should check their listing for accuracy of the information shown in the listing and email Nick Shaver at PPFA with any corrections.

    Our business is listed with several associations and vendor/supplier listing. It is always good business to make sure that they have the information correct! Not to mention the inbound Links! :thumbsup:

    I notice a number of framers who do not have the links to their website functioning.


    (Dave - Your post crossed mine in the mail!)

    P.S. Russ...I noticed that the web listing in everyones "More Info" page is not hyperlinked as it is on the results page.
  16. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    It gets overwhelming sometimes to see the same mud flung repeatedly. sigh.


    PS: Did you get your listing issue all sorted? If not, I'll be glad to email Nick on your behalf and ask him to email you.
  17. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Not yet. I emailed him this morning. Thanks Mike!
  18. Grey Owl

    Grey Owl SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    John, I'm not very computer literate. Is there a way to have the website hyperlinked on a results page?

    Again, thanks to everyone for their help. The new site is a great improvement over the old.

    also, I wonder how many framers even looked at this site before this thread was started,
  19. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Then maybe it should be addressed rather than put off and buried because some don't think it matters.
    I pay the same As any other member.
  20. mbboston

    mbboston CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Nick is trying to fix my link as well, it is probably overwhelming.
  21. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    Who's burying it? At least two people who are very instrumental in getting the site going have been responding in this thread. Sorry if the PPFA isn't jumping quickly enough to satisfy your demands.
  22. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Was I talking to you?
  23. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    I don't know. Perhaps if you want a response from a specific person you should make that clear.
  24. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I am not a CPF or MCPF or even a PPFA member, but I think that this is a step in the right direction. I have said all along that the PPFA was not relevant to my needs because they had no interest in marketing members. Revamping the Find-A -Framer site shows me that there is now some interest in promoting its members. My only problem with the listings is that they should be in order of closest first, so that they do not frustrate potential customers with irrelevant information.

    Cliff, so that you know exactly what I mean; one of my shops is in Ellicott City MD. I entered my zip code 21042 and a 17 shop long list came up. Frame shops in Washington DC, VA, and equally distant locations all come up before the one Ellicott City PPFA member. They are less than a mile away from my shop. They should come up first.

    I think that listing certifications might encourage some uncertified PPFA members to take the test, but I’m afraid that it is more likely to cause more to quit the PPFA if they think the listings are unfair. It may also discourage some from joining. I am glad that you are working to make the PPFA more relevant to my needs. Continue to keep me updated. You may win me over yet.

  25. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    We have been working hard for the last few years to make the "market a member" that we have always tried to do, more obvious.

    As I have posted in other threads there have been many failed attempts. I believe most of them required a critical mass to show progress, but they required progress to get a critical mass.

    This site revamp is just the "next step" in a long term project to improve business for members. In the last few years we have completely revamped the Framers' Corner which has public sections in it for announcements and design showings that are designed to attract search results. The Corner points to the FindAPictureFramer site, so if consumers find it they are directed there to search for a framer. We have built many Facebook pages, Linked-in accounts and Twitter feeds designed to attract consumers and promote PPFA. And, now the next step building a blog based search front end that should be extremely attractive to search engines and consequently consumers. Yes, we want to market PPFA members.

    There are a number of programs and benefits in place to make membership a no-brainer and we are working on more, but my hope is in the not too distant future when someone asks "Why should I join PPFA?" ONE answer will be, "Because you will get more business."

    The search results need work. Not to make excuses, but this is built on a somewhat proprietary platform that required consultant fees in the past. We CAN'T be tweaking this and tweaking that. We have to have a complete idea of what we want, then get a cost estimate, then figure out how to budget it. Sorry, it's not like how most of you can decide to edit a site and pop in and edit it. There are varying opinions of what should be done and they all will cost varying amounts of money. There are some simple things we may be able to do to make improvements without involving outside contractors. This is under investigation.

    This site has worked this way for YEARS. Again, not making excuses, but the backend is the same backend we've had running for a while. We just improved the front end to be more attractive to search engines and consumers. Next step is to look at what can be done.

    It is VERY important that the data be correct. Data entry has not always been robust and some shops haven't updated their information for years. emails and websites have changed among other things. Please verify your information if you are a member.
  26. John Ranes II CPF GCF

    John Ranes II CPF GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Hi Ed,

    I agree with you that accuracy in the listing making the search tool meaningful to the user is a key element to it's success and should be a priority. Unfortunately that software is in the old PMA servers and may be cost prohibitive to do a major revamp....let's hope that continued improvements can be made / adjusted on the functionality. (As Cliff just explained).

    BTW - I did a search with your Zip Code of 21042 at the minimum of 10 miles and only one shop shows in the results page: Still Life Gallery - 21043. I don't know if this is you or not as you don't have a link to your website from your profile on the Grumble. (Hint Hint).

    A 20 mile search generates 4 results all listed in Zip Code numerical order (None 21042)

    A 30 mile search generates 17 results, again all in Zip Code numberical order.

    What I see even with an accurate and improved database is that the results will not be in geographical order as the crow flies ESPECIALLY if one selects a larger radius.

    I agree that this might be a concern, but as long as PPFA sponsors and encourages the CPF and MCPF program, I think that it is appropriate that shops with certified framers on staff be listed as such. To your point, they should not be listed in a prioritized postion, but listed numerically or geographically.

    Of note is the fact that the Fine Art Trade Guild in the UK does the same thing with their Find-A-Member search function.... listing by search criteria in distance away with credential visible...

    FATG Member Search - Framers / 10miles / Birmingham

    Mary Fender and the other volunteers who have and will continue to fuel this FAPF page with relative information and inspiring framing deserve thanks and gratitude by all PPFA members.

  27. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Not a current PPFA member since my employer is not interested. Former member for years and a chapter officer. Can't join PPFA as an individual. Not a CPF or MCPF. Not sure if I care to test. Been framing for 52 years if you count pushing a broom in my grandfather's shop.

    Did a search by my zip code... 46530. First result was a single result in Colorado. I'm in Indiana. Tried again. Got about 100 responses from all over the US to Guam, Puerto Rico, Queensland, London....

    Search engine is absolutely useless, IMO. My potential customers would have a hard time driving to Australia.
  28. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Actually you can. It's not well publicized, but call Nick and he can explain how.
  29. mbboston

    mbboston CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I like this search, its logical and helpful. A program like this could have search fields for number of things we do, like photo frames, photo restoration, art installation, art material sales, art sales and so on. The question is how much would it cost to make a change?
  30. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I was alway told ''no''. Will check out. I do see real value in a trade association. I'm a former board member of NAMTA and was very involved in that association.
  31. John Ranes II CPF GCF

    John Ranes II CPF GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    It is a Great Search feature and is realtively new and the FATG paid for this, I am sure.

    Keep in mind that Guild membership is 4-5 times what PPFA membership is in the U.S.

    Still...I'm sure some research down the road, we should be able to get something similar in the future.

  32. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So what you are saying is...... Nothing is going to change.
  33. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I know a few people who are members as individuals!
  34. EllenAtHowards

    EllenAtHowards PFG, Picture Framing God

    No, I think what they are saying is .... we have changed a lot of things. Some things can't be changed on the fly.
  35. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think I just realized "you" is me.

    I would guess the primary answer is EVERYTHING is going to change, It's just not clear when or how?

    I think you are making a really bad assumption that any single person actually can change anything. I have been very careful to post about what was, what is, and what is under way now. I have been equally careful not to post about what will be, because I don't actually know.

    You will notice that my name wasn't in the original post? There are a lot of people who have done a lot of work. This is a collective organization of many individuals. We try very, very hard to operate on consensus and we often start with disparate views. There are no dictators and no "control" point. That means things take time and discussion. Couple that with the technical situation we find ourselves in and changes will continue to take time and effort.

    Will what you want happen? I have no idea, but I hope not. I don't agree with you. I think this is the exact place where PPFA SHOULD be promoting and advertising things like certification so in the future, one answer to the question "Why should I get certified?" Will be "Because you get more customers if you do."
  36. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well I think it's more likely to change in the spirit of what's been discussed here than the US Tax Code being made fair.

    Maybe if one more person says it in a different way it will make sense. Imagine that your business was owned by 10 different people in 10 different states and you've already spent all your advertising money this year. You just discovered that the TV ad you created and is being run 10 times a day has a typo in the text at the end. How long do you think it will take to change it?

    First, you have to let all the owners know about the problem. Then they have to agree on the severity of the problem, and a solution. Then they have to figure out how to come up with the money to fix it. Finally, it will be fixed. Unless the typo is the name and address of another shop I can guarantee it won't be fixed in 12 hours!
  37. mbboston

    mbboston CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I see this as very productive discussion. The search program needs to change and its good to talk about it and get everyone's input. The British example is great, it incorporates Google map, something we are all accustom to.

    All the changes done in the past year were positive and refreshing. This new webpage is well done, and we all know how time consuming this was.

    So far, no takers for helping with PPFA Wikipedia page. I would like to remind all PPFA members of importance of this page. This could be more powerful then any other pages we do. Wikipedia pages are always at the top of Google search. This page has a potential to come ahead of other large and powerful framing sites. If anyone can write the text, I would be happy to implement it. We need someone with good writing skills who would closely follow wiki guidelines. We are talking about 2-3 paragraphs, 10 sentences or so. When the page is approved, then we can all do edits and expand the page. The key is to have it approved, and this is not easy.
  38. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    A disambiguation link from the Planned Parenthood (PPFA) Wiki page would be nice.
  39. EllenAtHowards

    EllenAtHowards PFG, Picture Framing God

    Can you find a Wiki example of an association whose content is acceptable? I would be glad to take a stab at it if I could find the formula.
  40. mbboston

    mbboston CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

  41. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I don't agree with you.

    Do you have to be a CPF or MCPF to be a part of the PPFA?

    Is it the PPFA's view that someone that hasn't gotten those creditials... less of a framer?

    Your comment about GETTING MORE CUSTOMERS..... proves it right there. You know exactly what I'm talking about now. You would rather a customer go to another framer..... IN THE PPFA that has a CPF or MCPF even tho the other framer might be just as good if not better.
  42. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Nic, you'll never get the response you want. The people who you're arguing with are highly intelligent. They are aware of your complaints and will either obfuscate their answer, feign ignorance to the design flaw, or claim righteous indignation to questioning the heroics to volunteerism.

    Although joining the PPFA seems like entrance into this group, without continuing education and credential certification you are not much better to them then those who don't join.

    Elitists are what they are...
  43. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I know. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    and NO.
    I'm not sure that PPFA as an organization has ever made a definitive statement on the latter question, but I certainly wouldn't make that statement or expect the organization to take such a silly stance.

    I (please notice the singular) would like to make the CPF and MCPF credentials be viewed as important to consumers.
    Isn't that what many people keep asking PPFA for?
  44. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't think I deserved that Mark.
    I recognize her objection and disagree with her.
    The "organization" might agree and a consensus might decide to change, but I hope not.
    We welcome involvement.
    There are many "non-credentialed" framers on committees.
    But, they are committees and that means discussion and debate not fiat.
  45. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Many of you just don't get it. Nic is absolutely correct in complaining that the zipcode look-up is sullied by its touting CPF and MCFP in dominant paragraphs above the search results. It is unconscionable to discriminate against dues paying members with that marketing hype. There is nothing wrong with the information being available elsewhere on the site, or the inclusion of CPF and MCPF in the listings in normal font.

    Another reason for me to say no thank you to membership.
  46. wcox

    wcox CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    ditto to what pat just said.

    Also, if i am correct, PPFA also encourages people to shop NON PPFA members thru the CPF and MCPF program by not requireing CPF and MCPF to even be a member PPFA. This I have never undertstood, why a CPF or a MCPF does not have to be a member of the organization that "Certifies"them
  47. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That certainly is true, and nobody has said otherwise.

    It is also true that earning the CPF proves the knowledge, earning the MCPF proves the skills, and the required continuing education assures keeping up with new developments. That's how the programs work.

    Another truth is that those who have not yet earned the credentials, but actually do posess the knowledge and skills, probably would have a more difficult task in proving that proficiency to customers who consider proficiency to be valuable.

    Nicole, I don't recall you saying the knowledge and skills do not matter, yet you have not explained why you so vehemently reject the opportunity to prove your knowledege and skills. "...the test is total KRAP" doesn't add much toward understanding your complaint. Do you really expect anyone to react favorably to that?
  48. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Cliff, I could send this to you in a private message but I'd rather say it on the open thread.

    I met you in Vegas and found you to be one of the most intelligent picture framers I have met. I was not talking about you, rather everyone else that has chimed in. You've been the lone voice of reason as far as I'm concerned.

    I've learned through past experiences that if I disagree vehemently with any member of the PPFA directly, it triggers a defense mechanism, that causes the other members to run to the alert moderator button. I get infraction points and time in banned camp.

    I specifically did not name names, but I can see how you thought I was directing my post to you...since I did say highly intelligent.
  49. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Apparently you haven't read what I've said on the other CPF exam threads. Or maybe the PPFA hasn't forwarded everyone my comments on the test? :shrug: Good for anyone that has passed the test. GREAT JOB. I'm happy for you. I'm sure you agree with every single quesiton on the test and every single answer. I DON'T.

    What I find rather funny is that its like politics.. you guys are soooo one sided with the PPFA you are blind to any kind of change or question to your actions. And get all definsive when people quesiton it.

    I joined to PPFA to be with collegues and to share ideas and to kick ### in the framing competition. Not to be judged about having ####ing letters after my name.

    I'm sorry to the friends that have given great amounts of time to this organization. Good luck to you guys. I really hope it works out.

    FOR the others that are bleeding PPFA blood.... maybe you should take a step back and see how many people your are alienating, and maybe ask yourselves WHY?
  50. stcstc

    stcstc SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    i think its wrong, actually very very wrong

    to differentiate between 2 paid up members in a search where one has CPF MCPF and other has neither

    both are more than entitled surely to equal footing an any marketing, or does it say in the ppfa rules somewhere that by gaining one of their qualifications that they are entitled to preferential marketing!!!!
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