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Price check: Museum Glass

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I guess, based on this thread, we're going to start keeping track of problem lites per case and stop buying what seem to be problem sizes, since those who buy only some sizes seem to be getting perfect glass, then adjust our work processes accordingly. Pain in the ### if you ask me.
 

Puppiesonacid

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
i find it a pain to cut down larger sheets and wrap the rest and hope it stays perfect until the next time i have to use it.

I like smaller sheets pre cut... equals less waste and more money to me :)
 

Kirstie

PFG, Picture Framing God
Had a customer in the shop the other day. He's a photographer who comes to us for one-stop shopping -- we print, mount, and frame his work. He decided to splurge on Museum Glass for this job, but he hesitated at the price: our retail price for 20x24 Museum Glass is $136. He claimed that our main competitor only charges $90-something for the same piece of glass. We ended up giving him a break on the glass because he's a good repeat customer who's not likely to by MG very often.

So: what would you charge for 20x24 Museum Glass?
Tried to send you a PM, but your mailbox is full. We are more in line with your competitor. We are selling a fair amount of MG at this price. We do not cut from large sheets--too many framers in a space that is too small. No time to carefully wrap the remnants, so we stock in every size available as we do CC and washed. If you are running a lot of discounts you may have trouble with a lower price than you are offering. Groupon would kill our MG profit, but then those folks didn't buy that product anyway. I have not heard of more problems in any particular size and I have not seen to many lites marked for return lately.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Honestly, flaws have never been an issue for us.

If the size of the lites has anything to do with the flaw rate, maybe it would be helpful to know that we stock 8 different types of glass and acrylic in only these sizes: 24x36, 32x40, 36x48, and 40x60.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
...and that competitor applies heavy downward pressure on the markups I need to guarantee profitability...
Tell us about this heavy downward pressure.

Every time I have shopped the three mass-market competitors within a few miles of my store, their 50% discounted prices for optically coated, UV filtering glass have been within about 20% of my retail prices. I guess their truckload purchase quantities would account for at least that much price difference, with perhaps a bit more gross margin.

We earn customers' business with benefits other than the cheapest price on glass.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
We've had this discussion before.

I find small bubbles in Museum glass more often than I don't.

Lately, CC has been worse. It doesn't seem to matter which size it is.

I usually have the glass cut and on the art before I see the flaw.

Makes returning it problematic.

The last month, I've been circling the flaw, cutting a about a four inch square and putting it in an old wine box. I'm over a third full.

I figure to hand the whole box to my rep the next time he comes in and ask him to pass it on to TV.

So, you don't get flaws ... you're lucky. Enjoy it.

oh yeah, I'd beat your competitor jim_p. Maybe I should raise my prices on Museum!
 

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Less see More Flaws

Less sees plenty of flaws. Wasted time and product. It's hard to justify complaining about most of them, so Less ignores many of them. Less will ask for a free case now and then to make up for the hassle. No free glass and Less will retrun much More.

Less sells a lot of AR because he does not like the red tinting in Museum, and since most people only care about the LOOK. Less sells a lot of AR to artists.

So, Less would recommend AR to the photographer at $50. Museum at $80 - Less likes to round up.
Less is pleased there are More choices out there to keep TV in line.
 

blackiris

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The only time I ever had flaws....... is on the smaller lites......

16x20 mostly....... I usually ONLY buy 24x36 and up....... but decided to
try smaller......... I'll never ever do that again....... :popc:
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Interesting;
I only stock 32x40 and buy 40x60 when needed (cc, (c)refl contr and mg). Yes, I do get some flaws here and there; but nowhere near as many as puppies and johnny seem to get.

So; is it the size???? More problems with 16x20 than larger sheets. Why would that be?
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Maybe some of us are being too picky...
I'm betting that is the case Jerry. I also consider a 1/32" dot of gesso on a smooth black frame to be a flaw. Based on frames made elsewhere not many others consider them flaws.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I wish I was lucky enough to have little to no flaws.

Maybe some of us are being too picky...
Truthfully, I've wondered if I was being "too picky," just unlucky, or others weren't being "picky enough."

Do any of you have a consistent "test?"

If it can be seen from 3', 2', 1' -NG
anything like that?

Had one framer tell me if you held the picture vertically with your arms straight out at full length and you couldn't see it -- fine.

That just doesn't cut it with me. I look from different angles with a raking light and I don't expect to see anything. You?
 

Jerry Ervin

PFG, Picture Framing God
Most of the things I am finding including bubbles, scratches, and black specks can still be easily seen at arms length.

I do look at the flaw at different angles and am pretty critical about a flaw once I see it.

When we sell an $80 to $100 piece of glass, it should be right as rain.

Funny thing is, I rarely find any flaws with the Premium Clear.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Funny thing is, I rarely find any flaws with the Premium Clear.
I buy generic clear and find one flaw for about every 20 cases. My test for flaws is if I can see it then it gets rejected.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Most of the things I am finding including bubbles, scratches, and black specks can still be easily seen at arms length.
Actually, I would agree. Once they're seen, it's hard not to see them.

I do look at the flaw at different angles and am pretty critical about a flaw once I see it.

When we sell an $80 to $100 piece of glass, it should be right as rain.
agreed!

Funny thing is, I rarely find any flaws with the Premium Clear.
You know, now that you say it, the Premium Clear has an occasional bubble in it, but not nearly as much as the CC or Museum.

My guess is they have plenty of places to sell the "rejected" uncoated glass, but once it's coated there are fewer places they can pawn it off.
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I buy generic clear and find one flaw for about every 20 cases. My test for flaws is if I can see it then it gets rejected.
I switched from Premium Clear to 2 mil and haven't had any problems with it. We don't sell nearly as much of it as the coated glass though so my perception might be skewed. We use CC the most by far.

So far in September we have replenished cases of Museum Glass in sizes of 32 x 40 ( 6 lites), 22 x 28 (8 lites), 18 x 24 ( 12 lites ) and 16 x 20 ( 16 lites). And I'm notably unhappy.

I'd say the differences we are experiencing are the result of a combination of the volume of glass sold (more glass = noticing more flaws per day) and sizing (certain size cases seeming to be more flaw prone.)
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Tell us about this heavy downward pressure.
Really Jim?

Every time I have shopped the three mass-market competitors within a few miles of my store, their 50% discounted prices for optically coated, UV filtering glass have been within about 20% of my retail prices. I guess their truckload purchase quantities would account for at least that much price difference, with perhaps a bit more gross margin.

We earn customers' business with benefits other than the cheapest price on glass.
If you can sell your glass 20% above the competition and have untainted product then that's really great for you. That's not my reality though.

Their truckload purchases may very well account for a discount, as well as not buying through a distributor! But that's not what we're being told. We're being told they are buying the quality control rejects.

I think some of the lites I get should in fact be those quality control rejects, yet I'm paying top dollar.

Now I have waste of both time and materials to deal with, and market competition which makes it difficult for me to ensure I'm making what I need to on MG on every order.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The BB stores buy Museum from LJ to be sold at the stores. The BB store employees hate the stuff.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
... Their truckload purchases may very well account for a discount, as well as not buying through a distributor! But that's not what we're being told. We're being told they are buying the quality control rejects.
...
Actually, what we were told is that they are being sold glass with a lower quality control tolerance, which isn't exactly what you said.

My understanding of what was said is ... if a batch comes through "for them" it isn't looked at "as critically." But if it's perfect, they still get it.

It's not that they're getting rejects, just that it theoretically takes a bigger (?) or more numerous count (?) before a lite gets rejected for tehm. yeah, sure.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
The BB stores buy Museum from LJ to be sold at the stores. The BB store employees hate the stuff.
Sounds funny, but one BB emploee told me the same thing that the "real" museum glass had more problems.

I thought he was being funny and pulling my leg ... hmmm
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Here's the acrylic issues while we're at it:

Framed this jersey:

acrylic2.jpg

The customer wanted it to be large so it's 40 x nearly 60. Got it ready for glazing and take off the protective film on the conservation acrylic and it's got white lines all over it that don't easily come off. I hope you can see some here:

acrylic1.jpg

Now I had already cut this piece and taken off both sides of the protective film, I figure I pretty much own it. And I had already just thrown away a piece of non conservation acrylic because it had a big black spot on it. I wasn't in any mood to dumpster it so I cleaned it. I spent 3 hours fitting that thing. I polished every square inch of that with $10 worth of microfiber cloths and 210 polish. I stayed here working until midnight that night, could have been home by 9 if I could have gotten a decent product. I count that as a loss because if I was paying people by the hour it may very well have been cheaper to dumpster it.

Not that I had the ability to dumpster it because it was due the next day and when I opened up the next case it had pieces that looked like this:

acrylic3.jpg

The protective film was short 3/8" along all the long sides, the film was badly puckered all around it, and it was FILTHY along the uncovered edges and into some of the puckers. Since my project was 40" along the short size there was no way these were useable. I used them on smaller pieces and spent extra time and wasted product cutting along the 3 sides of the plexi instead of two.

So I wonder if everyone's plexi is awesome and I'm the unluckiest plexi buyer on earth.

By the time that project was done I was so infuriated I posted a rant on here but thought better of it and edited it out, then a mod deleted it.

Can't stand losing money.
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Actually, what we were told is that they are being sold glass with a lower quality control tolerance, which isn't exactly what you said.

My understanding of what was said is ... if a batch comes through "for them" it isn't looked at "as critically." But if it's perfect, they still get it.

It's not that they're getting rejects, just that it theoretically takes a bigger (?) or more numerous count (?) before a lite gets rejected for tehm. yeah, sure.
I was under the impression that flawed MG is kicked off the line and packaged as Masterpiece. I know I read that somewhere... maybe it wasn't accurate? Maybe it was in the nuked thread. Search on this site is difficult.
 

couture's gallery

PFG, Picture Framing God
Back to the original question...our price is $93.50, but we discount 10% to regular customers who use it all the time.
 

mike

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
We rarely have problems with Con Clear or Museum. Last month 71% of our glass sold was Museum and not one flaw. In the event that we find a flaw, our distributor will replace that one piece no questions asked.
 

RoboFramer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Maybe they save their best stuff for export!

We can't get all these different sizes, (main supplier would cut anything you want to size though) in Tru Vue boxes it's either 36x48 or 60x40 and imperfections are very few and far between, has never been enough of a problem to get even one sheet credited.
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Actually, what we were told is that they are being sold glass with a lower quality control tolerance, which isn't exactly what you said.

My understanding of what was said is ... if a batch comes through "for them" it isn't looked at "as critically." But if it's perfect, they still get it.

It's not that they're getting rejects, just that it theoretically takes a bigger (?) or more numerous count (?) before a lite gets rejected for tehm. yeah, sure.
Ok, you're right. I'm redoing a framed blueprint that Ms massacred the mounting on. If I stand the Masterpiece and the Museum side by side and run my white latex gloved hand in front of both of them the glove reflects purplish in the Masterpiece and slightly bluish in the Museum. Gotta be way different.
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Ok, you're right. I'm redoing a framed blueprint that Ms massacred the mounting on. If I stand the Masterpiece and the Museum side by side and run my white latex gloved hand in front of both of them the glove reflects purplish in the Masterpiece and slightly bluish in the Museum. Gotta be way different.
That's interesting, because they shouldn't be different colors?

Do they smear up and streak the same?
 

Cliff Wilson

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Been tempted to try but I don't wanna mess with the customers glass then have to clean it.
I don't have the time to make a special trip, but maybe the next time I'm near an Ms I'll see if I can buy a piece to do some comparisons.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Be sure it comes out of a Masterpiece box and not a Museum box.
 

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Does the Masterpiece glass have the brown edge.
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Tru-Vue gods are toying with me today sold 3 pieces of Museum so far, one on a dark fabric mat, one on a mat with fillet that will touch the glass and want to scratch it unless I spacer or something and one on a frickin pastel.

That'll teach me!
 

johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
You are a glutton for punishment aren't you?

Good luck with that.
I think that's the bonus of not having the salesperson do the work cuz I wouldn't have sold that! Ha!

On the Ms repair I spy a little fib. Customer said she got it as a gift cuz she would never go there but her name is on the sticker inside the mat.. hahaha. She got learned. So I called her in to look at the horrible mounting... framers tape hinged at the top and bottom with ATG down the sides to hold the mat even though it's also book hinged with the same framers tape. The piece is all puckered in the middle.
 
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