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Problem Remove Adhesive Stains From Jersey?

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by paintingpotato, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. paintingpotato

    paintingpotato Grumbler in Training

    I'm in a pickle.

    I'm framing several signed jerseys for a client, and was given one in particular that had already been mounted by a different frame shop. I do my stretching and my sleeves a certain way, and the client wanted them all to match, so he gave me this one to re-mount and put back in the frame.

    Upon taking the thing apart, I saw that it had been mounted almost entirely with a very sticky ATG tape. It held the jersey down to the matboard, and it held the sleeves down to the front of the jersey.

    The way he wants the sleeves done will leave the ATG exposed, so I carefully removed them with adhesive remover. I got all the adhesive off, but it left behind grey stain in the fabric that I can't seem to get rid of. Does anyone have suggestions? So far I've tried rubbing alcohol, denatured alcohol, good old soap and water, and a Tide To Go pen, none of which have worked.
     

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  2. Gilder

    Gilder MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Maybe you can ask dry cleaning people to take a look at it.
     
  3. paintingpotato

    paintingpotato Grumbler in Training

    The only problem there is that this is a jersey we are fixing up as a courtesy, while we are framing a dozen other jerseys for this customer. So, if we're the ones stuck with a dry cleaning bill for a problem we didn't cause, we're losing money.
     
  4. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Do you still have some of that "deadly" Unseal around. I'll bet it would work (tested on a non visible spot first, of course).
     
  5. Gilder

    Gilder MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    You will spend more time on it, $20 for dry cleaning is very well spent.
     
    alacrity8 and cjmst3k like this.
  6. bruce papier

    bruce papier MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    A dry cleaner may be able to help, but I know from past experience that dry cleaning fluid will leave a very similar stain on white uniform fabric if the fluid isn't allowed to outgas (i.e if the garment is left in the bag after cleaning). A customer of ours had three or four jerseys ruined that way.
     
    shayla likes this.
  7. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    First... A potato is in a pickle!!!

    Ok.. seems that you have taken on the responsibility of something for which you aren't responsible. You need to show the customer the problem and expain that you can't get it out without possibly making the problem worse.

    Why decide to do this for free? This is something you didn't know about when you offered to reframe it and now that it is revealed, they need to PAY you for whatever you might be able to do to fix it.
     
  8. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I was about to say that too. I'll never understand why framers seem willing to take on responsibilities and especially risks that they aren't paid for and which, if things go wrong, could put them behind the 8 ball, just for trying to be "nice". Can you think of any other businesses that would go out on a very risky limb like that?
    :cool: Rick
     
    prospero and Joe B like this.
  9. cjmst3k

    cjmst3k SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Look... perhaps the ATG itself (which is totally an unacceptable way to frame) left discoloration on the fabric. Just throwing that out there.
     
  10. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    Why would you just throw that out there?

    It's a given based on the OP that it was the ATG that caused the stain.

    Consider the facts:
    It had ATG on it.
    He removed the ATG.
    There is a stain where the ATG used to be.

    Pretty straight forward conclusion:
    The ATG left the stain on the fabric.

    . headslap.jpeg
     
  11. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Framah said that you have taken on the responsibility of something for which you aren't responsible. I normally agree with Framah but on this one I have mixed feelings. Someone else did some absolutely terrible, unprofessional framing and actually should be held accountable for what they did but who knows, maybe that is what they were paid to do.

    With that said, your 1st mistake was to try to remove the adhesive from fabric, are you a textile conservator or do you have any knowledge of how the adhesive & adhesive remover reacts to all fabric, 2rd you didn't consult with the customer about the problem before trying to remove the sticky stuff. So, if you are not a textile conservator you shouldn't have tried to remove the adhesive using the adhesive remover. In my opinion, you caused the dark stains by trying to remove the adhesive and therefore, even if you didn't put the ATG on the fabric, you should consider yourself responsible for the dark stains.

    I would definitely consult with the customer, just maybe they sill say go ahead and frame it as is, I would if I were a customer getting the framing as a donation. If they don't I would talk to a textile conservator and see what advise they can give you, maybe they will say bring it to the dry cleaner. If a textile conservator has to remove the stains it will be a costly mistake on your side.

    We all bite off more than we can chew at times and when we do we have to accept the responsibility to correct our mistakes. Just my opinion - Joe
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  12. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    Joe, do you think Hugh Phibbs would have knowledge of how to remove this?

    He seems to know pretty much everything.:confused:

    Maybe the op should give him a pm.
     
    Joe B likes this.
  13. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Hugh is really good and I'm sure may have an idea or 2 - good thought. He is on the Grumble now and then so maybe he will jump in or like you said, they should PM him. Joe
     
  14. cjmst3k

    cjmst3k SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well... lets review, framah, why I would 'throw that out there'.


    Consider the ADDITIONAL facts not listed:
    -OP is highly troubled ("In a pickle")
    -OP applied Adhesive Release chemicals on the exact spots the ATG was, so it was not only ATG.
    -OP is unusually concerned about a dry-cleaning bill.



    "It" was not specified. It could either be the "adhesive remover" or the "atg".


    Usually if someone brings something in to me with stains on it, I'm not in "a pickle", so I'm considering this a context clue.


    Usually, if someone brings in something to me which has stains, I don't worry about picking up a dry-cleaning bill, so again I'm chalking this up as another context clue.


    In my shop, in 100% of the scenarios where someone brings in something which has stains, I would have no problem telling the customer their item has stains. Whether when they are dropping off to them, or after it was revealed when working on. I would not worry about being charged a dry cleaning bill.

    Given the context clues about this concern, and the lack of definition of "it", I was believing there was a likelihood the OP thought the adhesive release he said he applied caused the staining. Otherwise, why be so worried? Just call the customer.

    My suggestion that...

    "perhaps the ATG itself ... left discoloration on the fabric. Just throwing that out there"

    ...was based on the potential that the OP thought the Adhesive Remover caused the discoloration, which is the only scenario in which I think someone would be concerned with paying for dry-cleaning, etc.

    I hope this answers your question and comments on 'Why would you just throw that out there?'.

    [​IMG]
     
    neilframer likes this.
  15. Gilder

    Gilder MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Over this I would not worry even for a second, take it to dry cleaners and they say we can't do it call
    the customer and ask him to come over and take a look. Not my problem!
     
  16. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    So lets make this clear so that we can all understand your opinion. You think that you would not have any responsibility for correcting something that more than likely was caused by your actions? Trying to remove the ATG tape may have cause the stain but you are not responsible? HUMMMMMMM!

    Like I said earlier, I had mixed feelings about who is responsible for the stain. Somebody else was responsible for using the ATG tape but a person without the knowledge of how to remove the tape tried and ended up with a stain. I don't know but to me it appears the responsibility falls onto the person removing the ATG since they did not first consult with the customer and second didn't consult with a person knowledgeable about the tape removal. If it were me I would 1st contact the owner, 2nd contact a textile conservator, and then maybe if the conservator recommended me to I would consider a dry cleaner, no mater what, I would do my best to rectify the problem. but that's just my opinion.
     
  17. prospero

    prospero SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I can only reiterate previous comments. Classic case of letting someone else's problem become your problem.

    I wouldn't do anything else to it. It's been damaged by persons unknown and not your remit to restore it. :(
     
  18. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    And I totally agree if they did not try to first correct it by removing the ATG. Once they tried removing the ATG they made the problem theirs because who was the one to cause the stain, the ATG or the Adhesive Remover.

    They should have consulted with the customer before doing anything and let the customer decide what they should do. Since they didn't consult the customer before trying to remove the adhesive they made another person's problem their problem. And that is why I said in post #11 "We all bite off more than we can chew at times and when we do we have to accept the responsibility to correct our mistakes." Again, just my opinion - Joe
     
    Grey Owl, alacrity8 and prospero like this.
  19. prospero

    prospero SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    :D I had a chap in this very morning with an oil painting for reframing. He asked if I could also clean it.
    I gave the usual answer: No. - Adding that I knew just enough about cleaning paintings to leave well alone.

    The last time I tried cleaning a painting it turned into a nightmare. Took me six years (on and off) but I did it in the end.

    o_O
     
    Joe B likes this.
  20. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    And I to have learned to only do things for a customer that I know how to do. It get pretty expensive if a framer practices something new on a customer's piece :eek::eek:
     
    prospero and Rick Granick like this.
  21. dpframing

    dpframing CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2


    Not that simple. Maybe the adhesive remover that he applied to the spot where the ATG was to remove the ATG
    has something to do with the stain. It is probably a solvent and very likely can cause a discoloration.
     
    Joe B, Jim Miller and cjmst3k like this.
  22. neilframer

    neilframer PFG, Picture Framing God

    I would agree with this.

    I take a cue from Chris and his signature line..
    "First rule of framing my father taught me: no blood on the artwork.";)
    I would add "No ATG on the artwork and No solvent on the artwork".
    Unless you really know what you're doing, don't use solvent or adhesive release on anything.
    We don't experiment on customer pieces.:oops:

    My rule is "When in doubt, Do Nothing":cool:
    (and then call the customer)
     
    dpframing likes this.
  23. prospero

    prospero SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I was about to post the Lincolnshire version of that: "If in doubt, do nowt".

    Same sentiment but it rhymes. :D

    Other wise sayings that apply are...

    "A little learning is a dangerous thing"

    and

    "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread"

    :p
     
    neilframer and Rick Granick like this.
  24. paintingpotato

    paintingpotato Grumbler in Training

    Thank you for your replies everyone. In retrospect, I should have simply given the jersey back without trying to remove the adhesive. My boss might have been cross with me for not at least trying, but you can see what happened when I did try. Unfortunately, my boss has more ideas than he has experience, and has often led to mishandled projects when he decides to get involved in the frame shop. If I hadn't tried, I guarantee he would have grabbed solvent and done it himself.

    One thing I wanted to clear up was that the customer is technically the interior designer who is working with the jersey's owner. He outsources the framing of the jerseys to us, while he does the design work. I contacted him about the problem and he steadfastly refused to take the jersey to a dry cleaner. He was too afraid that it might get lost or stolen. I can understand this fear, because in the end he is the one responsible for returning the jersey to the customer, but I thought he was being rather paranoid. It is a signed jersey, and I don't know what it's worth, but if he was able to trust it to a frame shop, why not a dry cleaner?
     
  25. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    What makes you so sure the dry cleaning fluid won't cause the signature to run or otherwise affect the jersey?

    This decorator needs to inform their client about the pre-existing problems with this particular jersey, and let that client deal with it. Neither you nor the decorator can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and you can oly cause problems for yourself by trying to do so.

    :cool: Rick
     
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  26. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes, and another possibility is that the solvent and the ATG chemically interacted to cause the stain. That might be possible even if neither of those chemical concoctions alone could cause a stain.

    But in that case, your conscience would be clear and the boss would have the monkey on his back.

    This seems irrational, unless he truly believed that you could do the job equally well.

    Perhaps he, like many of us, has had previous unfortunate experiences with dry cleaners. His trust of your shop is a good thing.

    When I have discovered unseen, previous damage/deterioration in a valuable item I have been asked to reframe, I have strongly suggested contracting a professional conservator to repair/restore the item, and I have always kept a list of them to recommend, with contact information.

    Since customers often decline such suggestions, my well-rehearsed response usually is purposely-conspicuous defensiveness designed to let him know I seriously don't want to be on the spot, immediately followed by my request for his signature on a waiver of my responsibility. It's funny how customers tend to rethink their cavalier "oh, just do it yourself" commands when you ask them to sign something.
    :rolleyes:
     
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  27. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yep. You have to let them know that you have no intention of doing something "above your pay grade", nor accepting risks/responsibilities that they themselves refuse to accept.
    :cool: Rick
     
  28. cjmst3k

    cjmst3k SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Speaking of which, does anyone have a good waiver they use, which can be customized on the spot?
     
  29. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Get yourself some Adhesive Release. International Moulding carries it, but I'm not sure if all locations do. I know that the one in MN does. It works great for taking off all types of tape and sticky stuff without doing harm. I've used it for years on all sorts of things, like our vinyl boat seats, my own clothes, to take atg off pictures or mat boards., for taking rubber scuff marks off the side of our boat and a lot more. I buy it by the case, which is 4 quart bottles, at a time and I wouldn't be without it. The only thing I would be careful about is using it on pastels that have a fixative on them or screen prints. It's always best to proceed with caution no matter what you are using it on.
     
    Gilder likes this.
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