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Should your suppliers pitch in on advertising?

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Paul Cascio, Jun 24, 2007.

  1. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob writes: >>if my suppliers offers to pay for my advertising would should s/he reasonably expect in return from me?<<

    There is a price to pay for co-op advertising.

    In the photo business Kodak or Fuji will make you jump through plenty of hoops to qualify and be reimbursed. They want to be sure you are prominently promoting their brand.

    Its not free or socialistic. Both parties benefit.

    It's too bad this thread became a pi$$ing match instead of a discussion.

    Delete this mess and start over.

  2. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I certainly don't see it as a pissing match. A lively discussion, sure, but I have no personal animosity toward Whynot and would hope he feels the same. We've both focused on our differing viewpoints which are obviously far apart.
  3. Whynot

    Whynot SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Indeed, Paul, what's the trade off here? What’s a supplier to get from it? What type local suppliers may feel tempted to join that ad campaign when chances are that every framer has at least 1000-1500 corner samples on the wall, of which only a small fraction may belong to that local supplier. Besides, of all the samples on the wall only15% are "winners". A successful ad campaign (and nothing is certain in this area) would bring perhaps a few more orders that would very likely score in favor of those 15% "winners". How can a supplier tell where his line sits in relation to that 15% golden bracket without doing an extensive search for his each and every client? Then what about framers falling for cheaper knock offs? All framers appreciate variety and freedom to buy and promote what's best for them. Their best is not their suppliers’ too. Buyer-supplier relationship has many diverging interests, conflicts and contradictions that are carefully kept deep inside, boiling in large pressure pots.

    Paul, it appears to me that you want to sell a product using a weak selling plan and poorly qualified sales people. A good salesman always tunes his pitch according to what his prospect’s needs and wants are. Many framers are good at selling frames but not equally good at selling life insurance, cars or coop ads to their competitors, and much less to their suppliers. Especially those who would make no effort to read their competitors' mind or their suppliers’ needs and wants are prone to fail at it. I am a supplier to the trade myself. Perhaps this coop thing doesn’t fit my profile, but I still have a sense of what sounds appealing or objectionable to suppliers in general. It doesn't matter how good your product is or how persistent you & JPaul are; selling same coop ad idea to framers and their suppliers requires two different packages and two different tunes. What works for framers may not work at all for their suppliers and vice versa. In my opinion people fast to accept that coop ad may work in frame industry just because it did wonderfully in photo or car industry make fast buyers, not good sales people.
  4. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I take it you're not in favor?
  5. stud d

    stud d SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Why not got to what i was thinking. In a way. If a local supplier goes along with this what will they get? When people come in will you only show them the local companies moulding? No? I don't understand, you just made them pony up to help your business pay for advertising, but you show them other mouldings?

    This could go on and on. If you are in business for your self, who stands to make money on what you do? You do. It is that simple. If you make it in any business it will be based on your work and efforts. If you depend on other people and they fail what happens to you? Take care of number one.

    And do suppliers ask manufacturers in China, Mexico, Us, Italy, Russia, or Germany to help in advertising? NOPE. This is a never ending chain.

    I will say if I was spending an absurd amount of money with a company, say 75K a year, I would look to them for big advantages. But these advantages are in pricing and other types of things.

  6. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Okay, I see your point, but that is already built into the program. The supplier is only rebating x% of what you buy from him.

    Example: If you buy $1000 from ABCD Frame Supply, ABCD is going to put $40 (assuming 4%) into the advertising. This is a win-win for retailer and supplier. If I'm ABCD, this is a no brainer that I should do this.

    All of the participating retailers would probably want to, whenever possible, buy from a supplier who is helping them increase sales by participating in a co-op advertising program.

    Taking part in co-op advertising is a way for a suppplier to gain a unique competitive edge, further relationships with retailers, and build customer loyalty.

    As for how far to extand the chain, I think you'll find that co-op relationships a 1-1 and typically between a supplier/manufacturer and retailer to promot consumer advertising.

    Note: There are other, more complex formulas that could also be used, but the one above is the simplest.
  7. Pang Shu

    Pang Shu Grumbler

    Hi. I'm the President of ABCD Frame Supply.

    I'd love to give you $40.00 in extra discounts (on top of what we are already giving you) to pay for advertising in the hopes that you are able to do more business with us in the future.

    So how would you like to structure this deal? Here's a couple of options that I think might be workable.

    A) We could design, print, and deliver professional point of sale displays that feature our products for your store (a $40.00 value).

    B) We could develop an ad campagin that features our best selling products, and has a place for you to enter your company's name at the bottom. This could be used in newspapers and other printed media (much more than a $40.00 value).

    We are open to discussing other options that may be available to help you sell our products, but we dont feel comfortable with contributing to your general "advertising" budget.

    We'd need to have some more input into factors such as how you plan to advertise, in what media do you plan to advertise, frequency of ads, is our product prominently displayed in the ad, and other issues before we invested into your advertising budget. I'm sure you understand that we need to make sure our interest are best served before investing in any advertising campaign.

    We wish you the best in your advertising ventures, and we'll help in any way we can. Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have.

    ABCD Frame Supply, Inc.
  8. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

  9. Pang Shu

    Pang Shu Grumbler

    Hehe - You caught me. I'm not the president of ABCD Frame Supply, Inc....

    I'm just the janitor.
  10. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Dear Mr. Pang,

    Thank you for recognizing that helping my business, helps your business.

    With repsect to:

    "A) We could design, print, and deliver professional point of sale displays that feature our products for your store (a $40.00 value)."

    Great idea. In fact, I just have to ask why you haven't done this already. Your competitor, Larson-Juhl has been doing this for years. Of course, your point-of-purchase display does nothing to put customers in my store, but it's still a nice gesture and one that I'm sure you'll agree is long overdue.

    "B) We could develop an ad campaign that features our best selling products..."

    Another wonderful idea Mr. Pang, that is, if you really want to waste money creating brand awareness for ABCD brand frames.

    However, once again I have to ask why you haven't done this already. Also why don't you do as your competitor Larson-Juhl has done and actually place ads in various publications at your own expense. Incidentally, have you noticed how much your competitor has grown?

    In truth however, I really don't think trying to brand your frames is a good idea. In fact, despite their efforts, I've never once had a customer come into my store and ask for a Larson-Juhl brand frame. You see, frames are a commodity item, so you would be better served helping me gain customers.

    Then, when I sell my customer one of your ABCD frames, you could show your gratitude (You are grateful, aren't you?) by rebating just a teeny-weeny little bit of the amount I spend with you - let's say 4% - to help defray my advertising expenses so I can have more customers to sell ABCD Frames to. You never know, I may even become motivated to want sell ABCD frames more often.


    Your Customer

    P.S. I'm a small business owner, so I'm the President and the janitor too.
  11. Pang Shu

    Pang Shu Grumbler

    Ok, OK! Just don't break my legs Paul! That was 4% right?!?

    Sounds like a quick way for your store to get $40.00 off your order for "Advertising Expenses", which may or may not be effective in any way. I might just be paying for you to have dinner out this weekend too....

    Hmmm, buying you dinner might be the best way to get you to buy more ABCD Mouldings... I'll have to think about that one.

    I'd think the supplier/manufacturer would want to have more control over how their advertising dollars are spent.

    ABCD Frame Supply, Inc.
  12. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    That's why the money could be put into a recognized co-op ad campaign and not given directly to frame shop.

    Most co-op that I received in my previous business life required submittal of proof of advertising for any rebates.

    PS. Hey Paul, I guess Pang Shu's sudden reappearance after so few posts over the last several years, proves that some of those 5000+ views on the other thread were by other than those participating! :icon21:
  13. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    JP has it correct. The rebate money goes directly into the ad pool to buy more ads. The retailer benefits and so too does the supplier.

    The dinner idea is appealing of course, but we'd end up with a lot of overwieght suppliers, and perhaps retailers too.

    John, I was wondereing where that one unnacounted for "view" came from. I guess it was Pang.:)
  14. Pang Shu

    Pang Shu Grumbler

    Ahh, I understand now.

    I thought Paul just wanted an additional 4% rebate to go out to dinner this weekend! (Which might be the best way for him to buy more of my mouldings. I'm still thinking on that idea....)

    I think that most manufacturers/distributors would like to be a part of their retailer's success. It seems like most of the questions about this idea lie in the structure. As Jim stated earlier in this thread, the devil's in the details.

    How do you make a standardized advertising plan that is fair and equal for an industry that is anything other than "standard"?

    Yes - I am a long-time lurker, and I'm usually comfortable with just spectating. :)
  15. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Paul, I think you are right on target in seeking to consolidate and professionalize the marketing and advertsing of framing to consumers. In the past we have collectively done nothing fruitful, and individually we have been woefully ineffective.

    To wit: the overwhelming, consistent consumer mind set that "framing is expensive". To consumers "50% off" seems like a good deal only because we, as a relatively unprofessional industry, have allowed that kind of ignorance to blossom.

    As I see it, two impossibilities have plagued the two best ideas that have come down the pike so far:

    1. The money has to come from someplace, and lots of it. The Art & Framing Council had a workable way to deal with this one, but blew it with dismal results and there was no accountability. Framer Select failed on this one, in spite of Mr. Goltz's huge personal investment and valiant efforts to make his otherwise-genius plan work.

    2. Even if the money were available, consensus about how to spend 0it is totally absent. Who can we trust to change the face of our industry and spend or money most wisely? This is about fear of losing, and I'm not sure any management and administration could attract enough framers to prove its potential to succeed. Confidence, credibility, and hesitation are the main issues. This was AFC's downfall, as there was absolutely no accountability. Nobody could figure out where the money went. Results were neither favorable nor provable, so the funding eventually stopped. Framer Select had great leadership and credibility, so the plan probably worked as well as it could have, with such a limited budget. I think framers hesitated to join Framer Select because the concept was new and unproven, not because they lacked confidence in the leadership per-se.

    I believe a national program would be most effective in affecting consumer perceptions of framing, but that is just too much for the typical small shop framer to embrace.

    It would be much easier to get a local or regional program off the ground. The results would be limited, but so would the risk be, to the uncomfortable, skittish investors who would absolutely demand clearly positive results.

    So, I think your idea to involve local and regional distributors makes sense. No, they should not be expected to provide the money. No, they are not professionals in the marketing/advertising business. But yes, they could serve as a catalyst for a cooperative effort among local framers. And they most certainly would benefit directly from a significant improvement in their customers' businesses, if they could take the bull by the horns and establish a cooperative program.
  16. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Jim I agree with almost everything you say, but a national program is out of the question because of cost. That was one of Framer Select's problems - it never reached critical mass. However, a national program could be a possiblility once an econmy of scale was reached.

    Of course, even a national program would be test marketed locally, or regionally.

    As for the suppliers, the main reason I want them to pitch in financially is to show the retailers that they stand beside us. A 4% rebate on purchases is really just token amount, but it says we support you and believe this the right thing to do.

    I think it would be hard for a supplier, who would obviously stand to benefit from increased retail sales, to say to a retailer, "You should advertise this way," without backing it up with at least a some financial gesture. As someone else (JPaul I think) stated, this would also accelerate acceptance by retailers to give the program a jump start.
  17. stud d

    stud d SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I have edited and cancelled about four posts, all long winded. I am hot with this, but there is no sense. It is all about what everyone should have want and get. Not what they are willing to do to get it, or make it happen. So I am done with this it has taken too much time. It is one sided for the shops nothing for the vendors, but hope. And that is the reason that this will not work in the business world.

    off of this

  18. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Not sure what you're so upset about Patrick, but if you have a better idea, we'd all love to hear it. BTW, am I correct that you are a vendor?

    I believe this offers benefit to retailer and vendors. Someone has to do something besides sit back and watch one large vendor and a few large retailers continue to grow. You don't have a problem with that?

    I can tell you this - if the suppliers don't start accepting some responsbility for the retailers problems, then the retailers are going to do more than just work together to bring in customers. They're going to form buying groups and buy from a few preferred suppliers who recognize that we're all in this together and that our problems are your problems too.
  19. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    A 4% investment is not a 'small gesture'. In the distribution business especially, where profit margins are much slimmer than in retail, 4% off the top would be called a 'significant investment'.

    If a supplier were willing to invest the personnel resources to organize and manage a cooperative advertising program, I believe that would be more valuable to the cause than the 4% rebate you mentioned, and it would represent a more palatable commitment on the part of the supplier. After all, if the vendor doesn't enjoy at least enough benefit to break even, it can't work.

    If one of my favorite suppliers offered to organize a program, I think it might start small. Perhaps a dozen selected customers could be invited to participate, strategically placed within the geography of a certain market or metro area, so as not to compete too directly. Each of them could pool, say, $200 per month.

    With ten participants, that $2,000/month could buy some radio spots or large enough metro-newspaper ads to be noticed. In each spot, all of the shop names would have to be listed alphabetically or mentioned equally. Or, how about coming up with a catchy name to promote, such as (City name) Art & Framing Association, directing consumers to a central web site for referral to the participating framers?

    All of the framers would have to commit to, say, three months of participation. Six months would be better. Then, if the program works for some and not others, it could be reevaluated and more could be invited in. If the program didn't work, nobody would lose big. But if it worked, everybody would win and others would want in.

    Heck, if just 25 of the framers in my market area wanted to chuck in $200/month, I think a professional ad agency could work wonders with that $5,000/month.

    If we were talking about such numbers, a pro ad agency would have to be involved. And with that, the supplier's cost and obligation would be greatly reduced, so maybe they could provide the advertised web site.
  20. lisamarie_b

    lisamarie_b CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2


    I believe that the major suppliers like Larson-Juhl and Roma already do assist in marketing independent retailers. They have marketing materials available to their customers that can be easily customized to be used as direct marketing tools like postcards, and also pieces that are ready for print in newspapers or magazines. These types of items save us small-folk a lot, as we don't have to pay a designer to create ads for us. I'm not sure if they have a responsibility to advertise for us, or pitch in on our advertising, simply because there aren't many industries where that would be a standard. For example, Pepsi doesn't advertise for Quick-E-Mart, but they will provide Quick-E-Mart with some store signage or displays. Also, to be honest, there are some suppliers out there that I use but whose corporate image is quite different than my own corporate image, and I'm not sure that I would want their ads tagging my store. There are also other suppliers that I want absolutely nothing to do with. Therefore, I think in a cooperative setting (if that's where this is going), it would make it a harder sell.
  21. lisamarie_b

    lisamarie_b CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    PS- I meant Paul, not Jim....apologies! I was responding to the original post, not the post above mine. :)
  22. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    What you describe Jim, (with some numbers changed) is essentially what Paul Casico has put together already with his "join together" program. The problem remains that you have to figure out how to get local framers to agree to work together to begin, hence the need to get local suppliers behind it. (I sent out letters to everyother independent framer in my area and did not recieve on repsonse.)

    I think it would be great if they (supplier) want to kick in something, but I don't think that is absolutely necessary at this point. What we really need is help to organize co-op ad groups in each area.
  23. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Thanks Jim and and Lisa for your input.

    Jim, I agree, that a local wholesaler's adminsitrative involvement is much more important than financial participation, but I prefer to see both, at least to jump start things. Any money that the wholesale supplier contributes is used to buy more advertising, so it's not just handing cash back.

    As for a professional ad agency, would you mind researching that option a bit. Anything that get's our industry's small businesses started in co-op advertising has my support. I truly believe that independent framers MUST do this if we are to see a shift in the buying habits of consumers.

    Lisamarie, nice to hear from you again. Larson-Juhl and Roma have done some things, for us and we need to do things for ourself too. I'm not placing the burden squarely on the suppliers shoulders, I just want to see them get involved and recognize that they can be part of a solution.

    The Pepsi analogy is a bit different. Pepsi is selling a branded product, not a commodity item, that every retailer wants to carry. Pepsi spends hundreds of millions of dollars each year promoting it's product and that helps every retailer who sells it.

    I heard on the radio not long ago that it costs Coca-Cola more for the bottle than the product inside. How'd you like to have margins like that? Of course, we have customers that complain that the product inside our frames costs less than the frame.
  24. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    It was John's (JPaul) experience that made me realize the need for a supplier to be the local hub if co-op advertising is to ever get off the ground.

    Please don't get hung up on my suggestion of 4%, or any financial contribution. If that is the major stumbling block to a supplier's participation, I will certainly not stand in the way.

    Also, Jim suggessted a smaller monthly particpation by the retailers ($200/mo vs my $100/week suggestion). The key is that the amount be enough to buy advertising in the quantity need to make a real impact.

    Rgardless the parameters, I think the key is for a local area supplier to get involved. However, I honestly didn't think asking the suppliers to kick in a little would be met with this kind of resistance even if it is a new to them. I'm lloking for something that can help the retailers and that the industry can embrace.

    If the few suppliers who have responded here constitute a representative data sample then I will have to reconsider my suggestion. This whole program is new for our industry and, just as with anything, adjustments will be, and have been made.
  25. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    Rather than negotiating with Grumblers, have you ever made such a proposal to a "local supplier"? Have any of them laughed you out of their office? The problem with this idea is that it is like shooting a shotgun into a woods and hoping to hit a grouse. Most local suppliers are not "branded" - they are resellers of manufacturers brands. A far more constructive approach would be to encourage brands like Studio and Presto to advertise to the public like LJ does. My favorite local supplier Forest Gallery, who sells Studio and Presto among others, should aim any advertising that it does to the trade - that is, after all, their business.

    :D :D
  26. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Thanks for your comments Pat, I truly appreciate them and find them helpful.

    I've found this forum to be helpful for brainstorming, and also as kind of a focus group to evaluate ideas. Opposing views, and shared experience actually provide the most helpful information. My challenges are typically made to get a better understanding of the reasoning behind an opposing view.

    I haven't tried to sell this to suppliers yet. In fact it was really only through my emails and conversations with retailers who tried to recruit a local group that I realized that I needed a different messenger. Suppliers.

    However, as there are a limited number of suppliers, I wanted to send up a trial balloon.

    BTW, I'm not looking for branded supplier as it would only confuse the message of an ad for indie framers. As a retailer, I was always leary of their motives too. Why does Larson-Juhl brand advertise a commodity product? Do they plan to open a chain of stores someday? How any framers have hada customer come in and ask for an LJ frame?

    I would welcome an opportunity to speak to you via phone to get more in depth views from you. If this would be okay, please PM me your number.

  27. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    Your coop advertising proposals have a modicum of sense, even though they're not for me. My comments are directed toward the lack of a connection between the advertising needs of a local supplier and a frame shop. The two biggest disconnects are the lack of branding and the inconsistencies in territory.

    I think you have the branding issue backwards. It makes sense for LJ to advertise their "brand" in order to create a demand for their product when a customer walks into the local frame shop. It also makes sense for LJ to do the reverse of your proposal - that is to approach the frame shop with an offer to mention them in localized ads for a fee paid to LJ (or meeting "partner" requirements). This all works because there is a brand to advertise.

    With a local supplier, who is usually just a reseller of many (often competing) brands, there are no connections with frame shops that make sense to advertise. He's better of just giving me volume discounts and leaving advertising decisions and costs to me.

    BTW I don't mind public back and forth on this. I only suggested talking to suppliers first because IMO it would have put the issues I raise before you sooner rather than later.
  28. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Pat, I disagree. Unless LJ has plans to open retail outlets, their ads, IMO, have no impact on consumers choices. The customer buys what we recommend or what they like regardless of brand.

    However, since you feel strongly that I am am wrong, I am going to post a survey (if that's possible) and see what experience other have had.
  29. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    There have already been anecdotal posts on the Grumble of customers asking to see the LJ stuff. It has also happened to me.
  30. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Just so there's no confusion, I do not consider Vermont Hardwoods a "supplier" in the sense of the term you're using. We really are a manufacturer that happens to be so small that we sell direct rather than through a distribution channel. So please disregard anything I've said as from a supplier.
  31. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Company ads / IF

    We have had people call to ask if we carry LJ or Roma moulding. I think the ads are good because the raise the awareness of custom framing. I sure would like to see some more variety though. On thier budgets why do they have to run the same old empty frames or woman gazing from her couch? Bleah. Roma has some new Tabacchino (sp?) ads that aren't too bad. We sure sell a lot of that stuff. Yesterday I had a woman in who inssited that her already attached float mount reveal only an inch of white matting with a 1.5" Tabacchino moulding around it. I quickly moved it under the camera, fired up IF, and she said "Oh, that looks terrible! Let's see it with 3"." Sale made. Love that visualization.
  32. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    CMC ads?

    Speaking of company ads, I would love to see some from the CMC makers to raise awareness of what custom framers can do with matting. And, I would like to have a selection of really good visualization ad slicks to use in promotion. That is this week's project--take some before and after pics and make my own. Wizard did give me one, which I have used in press releases, but I want a whole page of examples for a web page. Any great ideas out there?
  33. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    There is no doubt that type of customer is so rare, it's hardly worth mentioning. I'm sure closely following this post will be an "all the time" response. LJ and Roma's combined budgets won't make a frog-hair's worth of difference to the general public. Yet I'm sure the money they currently spend have already increased wholesale costs.

    I still view this as a situation where those in support think the grass is greener. Why not, it's not like its OUR money. Or is it?

    Now I guess if I already own a CMC (not rent) and neven intend to buy another one then it really isn't MY money. Selfishly, I welcome them advertising to the public. I think they should at least spend something like $4,000,000. That should get the word out there and what do I care...its like free money.
  34. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yes, a rare occurance indeed, but it does happen.
  35. Candy

    Candy SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Nelson's Moulding had their annual educational seminar the first of June. As one of their door prizes, they gave a "grant" to be used in advertising or promotions. The shop will then report back on the effectiveness of the use of the grant. I wish I could remember more of the details (obviously my name was not the one drawn for this great opportunity).

    You could contact Travis Nelson, Nelson Moulding and Framing, Traverse City, Michigan, for more information on this.
  36. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I must say I haven't read this entire thread, so this may be redundant.

    The largest vendors in this industry are tiny. They can't truly make a worthwhile dent in public awareness except in some isolated situations.

    What I would like to see is more help with POP displays and instore merchandising. A potential DIRECT benifit for the supplier and the framer.

    TruVue has done a credible job at this and Bainbridge (a little bit) and LJ are trying. (I particluarly liked the LJ Gilding display! But, HATE their poorly constructed, too expensive, looks the same as everyone else, "framed models.")

    How about Neon Open signs with the company's frame around it and their logo? (ala Coke displays) How about lighted window displays with replacable signs and company products used and displayed?

    The CMC, software, and visualization vendors could CERTAINLY help in this arena! Even if it was just a combination of professionally done poster displays and "cut art" so we could put our own displays together to promote the products!

    Co-op dollars for LOCAL ads would be welcome. (I understand LJ had(has?) such a program, but there are "qualifications" that apparently I don't meet because I haven't been able to get a reasonable response.)

    We and more importantly the VENDORS should think locally for spending their advertising dollars! I believe we'd all get a faster, direct, and larger return than national advertising that can't be sufficient for impact given the potential dollars!
  37. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Ok, so I went back and read the entire thread (sighh) ...

    It would be nice if a local supplier "helped" with the organization and presentation of a co-op plan, but I would not expect or want them to "use dollars" which clearly would have to come from ME except maybe in a small way, like a rep's or other's time.

    I am with Jay on this one. Give me the best price you can and let me decide how to best use "my" dollars.

    However, having talked to a number of framers in my surrounding area I must say it would be easier to "herd cats" than to get them to agree on anything.

    And, I include myself in that herd. I don't feel/see the pressure from the AOSFs because of my geographic/demographic situation, so Paul's proposally isn't particualrly interesting, and the things that are hot buttons for me just don't seem to be for the other framers.

    A true Co-op anything has to address the needs of all participants.
  38. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    CMC vendors and advertising support

    I don't see much return on LJ and Roma national ads. My customers must not read those magazines. We have a few people ask for LJ or Roma, but that's it. In reality, though, I think this would be hard to do all over the country in various publications. The only ones I can think of are the city slick magazines often published by the same companies--San Francisco, New York, Diablo, Los Angeles, Dallas, Oakland, etc. People in the local areas actually read these.

    Redarding co-op advertising. Perhaps it would work for some but not me and certainly not my neighborhood framers. A few maybe, but not most. I did view the video. We would not participate because we already have a marketing plan and advertising budget in place for our shop and our shop only. For all the comraderie, this is, after all, a competitive business.
  39. lise

    lise CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    What if scenario. Since Big Box apparently has alot of pull with their suppliers, how do you know that they are not already getting this 4% advertising rebate, and if they don't, but all of sudden, now that they qualify, how do you think that will impact sales for them (and us)?

    My experience with supplier rebates is that they are only given when you are the exclusive dealer of that product in any given territory (usually city). We are exclusive dealers for two lines. Only one gives us a 4% advertising kick-back, and they do this because we devote full page ads showing their product.

    I don't agree with suppliers such as Larson, ect, giving any kind of financial kick-back for many of the same reasons as above. For one, I don't want to feel bound to push any one company. Secondly, my product line is a little more diverse. I tend to feature 2 items in one ad. Thirdly, why should we expect anything if we are not sole dealers. Hey, if I were the only Roma dealer in Calgary and Roma were in hot demand, I would put a full ad in every month. People really rarely come in asking if we have Roma or Larson, even after the sale, they don't really ask what they are getting. They just want it because it is most beautiful with their art. I don't want my prices going up because some loyal dealers are getting cash back incentives and I definately don't want Bix Box to be getting these rebates either!!
  40. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Who pays for the Artcare brochures with Aaron Brothers name and logo on it--not just on it, but embedded within it throughout. A customer brought in one of these.
  41. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    My gut feeling tells me that it is not Aaron Brothers.
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