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Suggestion Sledge Hammer Business Model

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Jeff Rodier, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I see all of the time that stores that are staying in business and not struggling to survive are selling old used equipment for basicly nothing. Much of this equipment brings a couple hundred bucks and effectivley sets up competitors that do framing for an extra $20 over cost.

    Here is my suggestion, rather than setting up hobbiest competition why not take a sledge hammer to it and take it to the scrap metal dealer in the area. Many of the very old dry mount presses are selling for a hundred bucks more than the scrap dealers would pay. A good whack to the thermostat, one to the platten and another to the arms that the platten swings on. The industry has become so dilluted that an ongoing business would be well served by not putting it in commission to create competition.

    Recently Fletcher went through a Bankruptcy and a piece of that is 25 year old cutters are being recycled to death. A couple whacks to the head and bars would help protect them in the future. We tend to keep this stuff in service for decades to the demise of much of the professional trade.

    The best analogy would be like Israel selling well maintained and fully functional but aged fighter jets to Iran. Heck the U.S. might as well sell the old nukes to N. Korea.
    American Picture Frame Academy 1-888-840-9605

    The American Picture Framing Academy Learn Picture Framing Now
  2. Rocco Penny

    Rocco Penny In Corner

    As an owner of all used equipment,
    I must ask,
    at which point in my progression to make beautiful things could I beg entry into this very exclusive guild.
    Well I guess if you're not born into it 'eh?
    Or maybe if I could manage to not be an @$$whole everytime someone tries their best to elicit pity for their inability to move through life as a giver and not taketaketake until the only thing left is what you might let me lick from the pool of your own parsimony?
    I mean this seems a little short sighted
  3. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I live in an area where there are thousands upon thousands of pieces framed each month by hobbyest for a fee. I have not met a single one that collects and/or pays sales taxes. Regional unemployment is 23% so in addition to the local economy not collecting payroll taxes the counties and schools are not receiving their fair share from those working under the table. The economic impact is huge.

    There are enormous amounts of cutbacks on services and spending by the local government which in turn causes businesses to fail. When those businesses fail other businesses lose receivables which causes more business failings. This all occurs in the name of letting a hobbyist just frame a few things for a couple extra bucks. Every hobbyist that is not collecting and paying their fair share of taxes deepens the recession. Every hobbyist says what can it hurt if I just frame a couple dozen pieces a year under the table. Now multiply that in my area by 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 hobbyist (these are realistic numbers here) and you have multiples of tens of thousands of framing jobs that take from the local economy and do nothing to contribute.
  4. Richard Darling

    Richard Darling SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Wow Rocco. Sounds like perhaps you disagree with Jeff's idea.

    I think Jeff has made an intriguing point worth some thought.
    I'd like to hear thoughtful counterpoints and discussion.
  5. Luddite

    Luddite PFG, Picture Framing God

    All of my stuff is "USED" ...Well Ok the 2100 was unopened ,new in box...but a closeout when the transition to th 2200 hit. What`s wrong with recycling equipment? No way in 7 kinds of quick drying cement I could get anything for the catalog(wholesale,or not) price.If you don`t want to sell to a hobby user,ask questions...lots of em.Sledgehammer?! Isn`t that like the wealthy wahackjobs that euthanize the pets because they don`t match the new furniture? L.
  6. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Reminds me of when Hendrix or the Who used to destroy their equipment on stage at the end of a concert. My thought was always, "NO! Wait! Give it to ME!".
    :popc: Rick
  7. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    I guess you could try and reduce the the competition but cutting off the supply of used equipment.... Good luck with that.

    A much greater threat to existing professional frame shops is the free exchange of information here on the Grumble. Sheesh... anyone can just come on in and browse around and learn all the trade secrets of experience framers who give it away for free.

    Jeff... How many posts do you have on the Grumble?

  8. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    4,712 including this one. I think that you will see that much of the information shared on the G shows the amount of expertise and incredible amounts of inventory items it requires to frame a picture. There are thousands of resources that teach how to frame a picture using hack methods that are the default by the masses.

    I take no issue with someone that wants to open a framing business and many will tell you that I have assisted them. When Jim Miller was in his early years of framing he was just a few miles from one of my stores. He will tell you that I was always willing to assist in any way and as I told him there was plenty of room for the two of us in nearby markets. I even bought Jim's Pistoius and a Fletcher manual mat cutter from him when I opened this business.

    I do take exception to those who have decided to run under the table operations that dillute the industry and return nothing to the community or tax base. I welcome anybody to open a store even right next to mine. Two businesses going head to head is what made this country great.
  9. rmehoves

    rmehoves CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I don't get your point.
    Everybody starts at the bottom and works there way up. According to your theory you could pick a trade and using your advice everybody would not be able to start a small business unless he/she were independently wealthy, any trade you can think of! And I know you state that the used equipment goes to non-tax paying cutthroats..........how do you know that?

    Aren't you the one who is always starting threads about how bad the economy is because of the current admin and yet you are forever posting threads about how great you are doing and business couldn't be better, blah blah blah....

    Now a thread about how to eliminate competition, jeez.............
  10. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    A business is competition that is welcome. An under the table operation would qualify as an unlawful or illegal activity. The poor economy has worked very well in my favor because I operate in a manner that does not allow even under the table framers to compete with me. I had an under the table framer cause me some harm to the point where I put 3 of them out of business at the same time since I didn't know which one had done it. All three were framing from home and collecting cash only with no sales taxes being collected or paid. I am curious in the manner that you operate that you are offended by my comments. Do you collect and pay sales taxes in your business. If so good for you, if not then shame on you.
  11. palmettoframing

    palmettoframing Grumbler

    Now let's lobby the cmc companys to quit renting out their mat cutters. After all, if you can't afford to buy a new one, you should not have one.
    How could they allow folks to have a rental for $125 a month. Seems like they are supporting homebased framers. Oh MY!
  12. rmehoves

    rmehoves CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I work for a tax-paying legal framing business. If you are just against under the table framers fine but again how can you be sure that all used equipment goes to law-breaking individuals?

    Just because someone works from there house be it framing for their selves and friends or just trying to learn the business doesn't mean they are not paying taxes if and when they become a viable "business"

    I take offense because I have had several part time businesses and bought a lot of my equipment used, I am not rich! Using your business practices you not only hurt yourself but newcomers trying to learn a trade.

    If I recall correctly you are also a photographer and I'm sure you are following your own advice and destroying your older cameras when you get new ones so as an amateur won't learn from your used camera and cut into your sales..............
  13. Luddite

    Luddite PFG, Picture Framing God

    THREE states+ Fed. business tax..Sales tax is my discretion,someone picks up art here....well,at a show,YES!.L.
  14. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    As I have said I have no problem with used equipment since all of mine is used. I do have a problem with the $100 used equipment going into black market framing industry. I have never sold any of my used cameras but just kept it around gathering dust or passed it on to loved ones.

    I joined the Board of Directors of the camera club in order to assist those that wished to sell their photography. Those that I have worked with have then purchased vendor space at local arts festivals. Some have actually created financially sound businesses doing so. Others have placed their photographs for sale in local consignment galleries. I can only hope the galleries are providing them with 1099s for thier sales and I know the galleries are collecting and paying the sales taxes. I take no exception with honest competition.

    Palmetto can tell you that in this state the distributors won't talk to unlicensed businesses but out of state vendors will sell to them no questions asked. One of the most common moulding/chop vendors hung in licensed businesses around the country will sell to anybody with a pulse. Many of my customers used to purchase moulding from this company.
  15. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Laura we all know that you are a business. I would gladly sell you any of my equipment when it becomes no longer of use to me. The venues where you show and sell your merchandise require you to show proof of your business status.
  16. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Anyone want an old Oval Master? I'd rather not sledge hammer it for the landfill.
  17. Luddite

    Luddite PFG, Picture Framing God

    Yeah,but I work out of the house,so that kinda hurts....:DL.
  18. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Have You Hugged A Basement Framer Lately?

    Jeff, please tell me you're joking.

    Ummm, you're not, are you? You actually want to prevent competition by doing what? Sort of like the "Cash for Guns" program, but without the cash? Rest assured that if you don't sell your rusted out equipment to the infilltrators, the Iranians will.

    Hey wait, aren't you the same euphoric guy who jumps on here to shout to everyone in cyberspace that you had a good week of sales? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're also the guy who starts a topic just to let us know when you expect a throng of people to visit your gallery to enjoy some free Triscuits and Cheeswiz? Well, now I'm confused, because now you sound like a desperate man who fears even a Basement Framer using old equipment that's worth almost nothing.

    Rocco put it beautifully and concisely, BTW. But I want to also point out that probably half of the retailers in our industry started as home-based frames. Many of us will enjoy a nice income framing at home in our retirement too.

    Some people here hit the panic button everytime some budding framer expresses any interest in entering our industry. I especially love the ones who tell them how complex it is and what a poor decision it would be, or how they're making no money. Of course, these people remain in the business. Makes you go hmmmm, and scratch your head, doesn't it?

    Here's a link to an article I wrote, about some framers who needed sensitivity training :). Interestingly, it was published in January 2000, almost 10 years ago to the day. There will be a quiz on it.

  19. Luddite

    Luddite PFG, Picture Framing God

    A quiz?!!But I still have that book report!!!!!! L.
  20. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Maybe it stems from the numerous framing attrocities I witnessed among the nearly 300 pieces that came in for the show. A large number of pieces had by framed by a couple of "Guys" that frame on the side and collect and pay no taxes. Many that had me do the framing complained that their "Guy" doesn't charge them taxes for the framing even though they are not exempt.

    Fletcher-Terry would have benefitted if some of ancient equipment was taken out of service. All of the vendors that distribute the equipment would benefit greatly as well.
  21. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    "Out of a House" and "Under the Table" are two different things completely. My comments are aimed at under the table framers.
  22. Rocco Penny

    Rocco Penny In Corner

    here I am pounding on the door of doom again...

    I have a longtime associate that used to be my employer.
    He employed me for approximately 10% of the time I've been in my career.
    He thinks he's the last word in the very dynamic world of contracting.
    He wrote letters to all the local generals to warn of possible sanctions and illegalities from using unlicensed contractors.
    Some of these letters went to long term clients of other contractors, that were never his clients.
    He's now the laughing stock of all of us mavericks and hustlers.
    What a rube-
    He uses illegal methods every chance he gets.
    I suspect this thread is no different.
    Not to say, Mr. Rodier, that you are like my associate to the degree that he'll use any method to make a buck and even persuade clients to use him,
    but that this is reason to examine what you've become,
    and that some dummy like me poses no threat to a professionally trained, high quality framer, that uses the right way and material every time.
    Shoot, a few disasters like delaminating canvas, or so many other problems that arise, and you pros will have more work, not less.
    I wish my associate wouldn't be such a baby about things.
    If anything he should be canvassing the police to stop loitering in front of the places illegal laborers get picked up from, and taking the license plate numbers of every person picking one up.
    Oh well, that won't happen either,
    so what we're left with in both events is what can only be described as a poorly played exercise in futility.
    No offense,
    but I'll keep framing with my used gear, trying to keep the costs for my eventual studio gear being somewhere under 20K
    I'm above 10k now.
    Maybe it should be confiscated for my not having the proper approach?
    Ah well, I'm spending too much time grumbling and not enough working, so I'm out-
    all that gear helped me make one 7.5"x10.5" plain redwood frame all day yesterday which I promptly ruined upon final assembly.
    frustrating :nuts:

    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Maybe this thread should have been about people who do work and do not report it as earnings or sell things that sales tax should be collected on but don't collect it.
  24. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Okay, let's get back to the original post, that I personally thought was interesting and at least food for thought. As I understand it, what Jeff is saying is why make a little extra with the risk of setting up your competition, or sell it as scrap. Nothing more, nothing less.
    It doesn't mean that that scenario will play everytime of course.

    However, this is how my story went:

    I started my new frameshop. It used to be a frameshop, but I didn't take over the existing one though. The owner of this previous shop was bankrupt. He had equipment (old, but usable).
    We offered him money for this equipment and work tables. Not to use this equipment, but to eliminate possible competition.
    He was happy with the extra money. We helped him in more ways too, in case anyone will start biting my head off and after all that, we didn't want him to set up a new business and to worry about him taking his old customers with him.

    (In hindsight; it wouldn't have mattered much, as I could have handled the competition, but I didn't know that at the time).

    I'm not saying that all used equipment should be scrapped, far from it. But I think it's an interesting point and something you should give some thought to.

    Besides that, I think most framers in business, are hanging on to their old equipment anyway for the 'just in case' scenario. I assume (and again, I don't have facts to back it up) the used equipment on the market is mostly from going out of business and you wouldn't worry about possible competition.
  25. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    Two of the Times I sold used equipment, i sold them to small time above board framers who weren't any sort of threat to my business. I figure that I made money from my competition. Plus, at times i sold them materials they needed but they still had to figure out how to get all of what they needed to their place. Eventually, they went out of business for lack of a cost effective method of getting materials. Glass is usually their downfall.
    The one time i sold to a hobby person, they were an old couple who were trying to add a few extra dollars to their pocket. She made little dried flower arrangements and he cut the mats. I sold them the Green machine oval cutter.

    I think a better way of looking at Jeff's problem is for the companies to take the old equipment back and give a small "rebate".

    When i bought my Creo scannner, they offered me $1,000 off if I sent them the mother board from my old scanner. I took a sledge hammer to it like a kid with a piggy bank!!
    A two-fer for me!! I got a discount AND the pleasure of exacting revenge on technology!:thumbsup:
  26. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jeff Rodier said:
    That is true. Jeff also built my first 40"x60" vacuum press in 1989.

    Let the record show that I am rumored to be a Fletcher-Terry consultant, but I did not offer to sell my sledge hammer.
  27. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    Maybe Jeff's intention with this thread has been misunderstood. It seems that he is campaigning against hobbyists in business illegally, evading the required taxes and fees paid by legitimate businesses.

    Aside from operating illegally, some (at least) of the aforementioned hobbyists do not consider profit to be an inspiration, and their work may be less than acceptable.
  28. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So if your worried about the under the table businesses competing with yours, wouldn't a better solution be to anonymously report them to the taxing authorities? I know professional photographers who have done this to weekenders who weren't collecting taxes and were producing sub par work.

    If a hobbyist wants to get equipment, they will. Many of them actually have more money to spend on it than alot of full time shops who rely on their business for their income. There are hobbyists out there charging next to nothing and not paying taxes who have all brand new equipment since they can put 100% of what they do take in back into buying equipment.
  29. couture's gallery

    couture's gallery PFG, Picture Framing God

    The problem is the vast " underground economy" here in the U.S.A. ( and I'm sure elsewhere ).....I know what Jeff is referring to, but the underground economy will never cease to exist....it is in all fields....I know 3 "sign" painters who work out of garages..no license, no tax collected, etc etc.....I know a bunch of auto '"mechanics" same thing...and plumbers, electricians, rv repair guys , computer repair and programming guys etc, etc, etc.....all combined they collect no sales tax or have any proper licensing, or insurance or anything else we have to have in a ligit business...you can turn one in and 3 will take his place.....it probably amounts to millions of $ in "lost' revenue for our state and local programs...and how about the IRS cracking down on them...they won't bother because it's small potatoes...they would rather go after businesses where they can justify thier jobs by occassionaly collecting some $.....
  30. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yep-instead of the sledgehammer business model, it's more like the whack-a-mole business model. You beat one down and another three pop up. It's killing professional photography right now.
  31. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey Jim, maybe Fletcher-Terry should offer a promo on a green and yellow sledge hammer. I would love to own one.

    Thank you to those that recognized this post for what was stated and not a slam on those that operate LEGITIMATE BUSINESSES from their homes. A post like this always get the usual responses. There are those offended since it is pointing out illegal activities, those that did not actually read it and responded in a knee jerk reaction, those that entered the business with the mentioned product and of course those that did not read the recycling scrap dealer part and choose to be green.

    Taking some of this stuff out of service benefits the manufacturer and those businesses that close and really need the money. If one business is giving away a piece of equipment it lowers the value of the piece of equipment that another is selling so they can feed their family.
  32. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I can see a new line of sledge hammers with company logos on them.

    The Fletcher-Terry Scrap Master

    The C&H Oval Masher

    The Wizard Whacker

    The Bienfang Basher

    Collect them all now....
  33. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Pistorius and CTD would have to use cannons.
  34. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner


    Scrapping a used piece of equipment will not eliminate competition, underground or not.

    It's the knowledge (gleaned by the underground economy) on how to use it and how to frame something correctly that's more dangerous to your business.

    This information, advice and discussions are available to both, the tax-paying and the tax-evaders, in places say like the......Grumble!

    I am stopping by to remove your hammer before you get destructive ideas about the forum.....;)...after that we'll hit the Bimini bar....;)
  35. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Jeff, the sledgehammer suggestion is a sledgehammer approach to a complex problem. The availability of used equipment doesn't enable illegal competition disproportionately, and taking used equipment off the market probably won't have much of an impact either. These people will simply go to Woodcraft and buy hobby equipment.

    If you really want to strike a blow against illegal competition, then befriend a cop or someone with your state department of revenue, and work with them to set up a sting. Provide them with one of your photos and send them to the illegal competition.
  36. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Now that is funny. Your observation is accurate. There really is nothing about our industry that should warrant such elitism.

    I have always befriended framers of all levels. I tend to benefit the most from our relationship. Even though the act of building a frame is relatively easy, making them profitable so that it is worth your time is not. People learn that rather quickly. Those that wish to continue for the love of the art, like I do electric guitars, are welcome to continue. I don't build enough guitars for Fender to be concerned. I suspect it would take 10-20 garage framers to do the volume of the smallest storefronts. I'm glad Gibson isn't snatching up table saws and joiners and destroying them so I can't build guitars.

    As far as I'm concerned we should offer up our used equipment for free. After the hobby framing empire crumbles we get the customers they cultivated. It's happened to me several times!

    I am curious, though, how exactly yall are so in-tuned with all the fine details of other businesses. Like how would you know a business isn't paying sales/income tax? Perhaps the time spent on such investigations would be better used tuning your own business? Storefronts don't have a reputation for paying taxes by the book BTW.
  37. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Let the record show I saw your "rumor", wearing a Fletcher-Terry shirt, working in the Fletcher-Terry booth, and pushing Fletcher-Terry products at WCAF. Jim, we really gotta' get you into one of those 12-Step programs or something. :)
  38. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    They buy moulding and matboard and other supplies from me. The ones that run as businesses present their resale certificates and the others don't. Most of the ones that don't were buying moulding from the vendor up north that sends out the full color sales flyer monthly with 49 cent a foot moulding on it. You know the one and even have their corner samples on your wall.

    I collect and forward the sales taxes of those who are not exempt. I also appreciate your concern for my time as I take a break from the photography show where many of the do it yourselfers took time to brag that they buy direct from the one moulding vendor primarily. I love to hear them whine about the shipping charges. Especially the residential delivery charge on top of the rural area delivery charge.
  39. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    I have sold products to several people only to have them say many transactions later "ya know I have a tax exempt number for this....". They had it all along and never considered using it to purchase from me. Some are wise to that from the beginning. I don't think there is a strong relationship between those that fail to present a resell certificate from tax invaders.

    This wouldn't apply to framers as much as artists and photographers but many sell at arts and crafts events. During those events the local revenue cabinet sets the vendors up to collect/pay sales tax. Under that circumstance the seller may still not appear to be legit but in fact is in compliance with tax laws.

    The great news is that they are obviously not selling much right?

    I'm not worried about your time. You may be the best time manager I've ever heard of. You fight with the local photoclub, send a 10 or so customers to Walmart, take in a few dozen orders made while they wait, hand craft 400 - 500 Italian ready made frames, and still drop 2 or 3 dozen posts on us all in a typical afternoon. It's no surprise to me that you could also investigate the tax status of (how many 1000?) garage framers.
  40. i-m-chickie

    i-m-chickie SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Hi folks. Opinionated hot headed blonde here...I'll be nice.

    Storefront. check. (Not for everyone, I know, many of you are fantabulous without it...without a glass door I wouldn't get out of bed!)
    Sales tax. check. used equipment. check. 5 pound hammer. check. But Jeff I use it to take down walls...
    And I too am selling an Oval master..didn't know I had two, Hate it! but won't bash it beyond verbally!

    Jeff, puddin' pop, maybe we ain't charging enough for used equip, or there isn't a Kelly bluebook for what a 1983 Pistorious foot power V-Nailer would resale for Cause Paully baby is SOOO correct it would take a cannon to take that badboy out!
    Info should be where we unite not Tear down! Rocco and Jeff you guys are saying some of the same stuff...in different flavors..hang on I'm gonna bold some of that.

    Maybe we need an advisor spot on the G for pricing to sell equip.
    A thought....somebody read that and think about it!

    Otherwise. BBstore just 30 minutes ago sent me two "nice people" that wanted to self frame something AND HAD NO IDEA how..but wanted me to cut a mat...what do I give them all the info, deduce they had no idea what they were doing and educate them enough to know that they need my or someones help...
    Knowledge, service and pricing are powerful. Will they do it themselves maybe...but now they'll now the difference...JoJos was smart enough to at least send them here.

    Business sucks for the world right now...we just got to know where to lay blame...make sure were looking hard before we go bashing anything.
    My penny and a half. Oh and pay your taxes!
  41. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Thanks Cathy. I agree with you completely.

    Wasn't there some cat around here recently whom had a CMC and claimed to be a "hobby" framer. He was bashed also and it seems the claim was that he couldn't possibly be legit with that mat cutter. Framers have become a rather judgmental lot. It's sad and will only speed it's current direction of the industry.
  42. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That was what I was referring to about the hobbyists being able to afford brand new, top of the line equipment. Not all of them are buying used, so trying to stop them that way would be pointless.
  43. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Cathy, I agree with you too. I didn't perceive this thread as bashing the amateur/hobby/garage and so on framer. For me it was; how much money do you make by selling it to possible competition, against how much money do you make by selling it as scrap. And what is the difference when you balance the two against each other, taking all factors into account. With which decision do you really loose money.

    Everyone's business is different. For me; I'll survive on services and knowledge and design capability. It might not bring in volume (customers), but it does bring in customers that are willing to spend a bit more. (yes, business is slowly picking up again)

    I had 2 new customers yesterday, one needlepoint who was referred to me by another needlepoint customer, and one who was at a friend's house and saw a frame job I did and was told how I took all the time for design, showed different options and the whole process was 'so much fun, you should go there'.
  44. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    If you have used but serviceable equipment you don't want, what about donating it to a school or church where they have art programs for kids. When I got my new wall cutter I donated my old 40" Keeton wall cutter to the Art Academy of Cincinnati, and they were tickled to death to get it. Art budgets for schools are always the first thing to be slashed when funds are tight, so you could be just the hero they've been hoping for.
    :cool: Rick
    (Don't forget to give them a stack of matboard scraps--- uh, I mean fallouts to practice on.)
  45. Rocco Penny

    Rocco Penny In Corner

    It's true Jeff and I fundamentally agree.
    I agree that a resellers license is required to operate a business.
    If you make and sell something, that's a business.
    If you don't pay sales tax on your material, and resell it, it is a flawed business model that will get you in trouble.
    You may not under any circumstances claim a write off and not claim income of some sort.
    Unless you are a legitimate entrepreneur in the business of selling services, and charge for product based on those services.
    So I pay for everything, deliver something, and charge for my time, writing off every used piece of framing equipment as I want, and for that matter any other purchase I feel or deem necessary in the pursuit of my prize.
    Having one of my pieces larger than life hung up somewhere y'all will be unable to ignore it.
    Like a restaurant, some office he!! I don't care!
    Note this piece probably won't make back the money I have invested, or will it give people some high estimation of value of my other junk.
    I just want to cause I can.
    My Mom did, in 1976 right around these parts,
    and now it's my turn,
    maybe I'll burn out before I accomplish even 1 public show
    but it won't be because the business climate restricts an honest man with determination.
    I wasn't thinking about a fictitios nanme or tax number, but with this thread, I'm definitely going to do it before I transfer my liability to the venue, and make a bunch of refreshments there available at taxpayer's expense.
    I wonder if this is what you meant really, that I shouldn't have a show or go into business for myself because you were here first.
    Like my associate with his substantially less time paying his dues than I have and my thinking he's short sighted,
    I'd think getting out there with the masterpiece frames you all make here would assure that hacks like me couldn't compete based on interest alone.
    OH well, I don't know
    I want a v nailer
  46. i-m-chickie

    i-m-chickie SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Thank you for agreeing with me...but I prefer when people tell me I am right!:D

    Seriously, I have said this before and here again....Price, Quality, Service...Pick any two. That's how business works...

    So for hard working conscientous people we, or I, I can speak for me but presume for many, to offer quality and service and a respectable price...So we nip corners by buying used equipment, glass from outfits that will save a few pennys, free shipping, a rebate, volume pricing so we can do our other bits with dignity.

    Others, will opt out of tallying for uncle sam, or skimming in whatever way they can.
    I talk alot, heck I post alot, chatty Cathy, yup that's me, the people with the mats...I think they woulda given me $80 to stop talking...cause I told them everything they didn't know, they didn't know about framing....and compared to some of you that ain't much...but I can go on!
    So, she'll go home make a mess of it...maybe not, but she will see something that she didn't before...SHE NEEDS ME!
    Ylva, you said the same when you said about the NP chick and her referrel, that just didn't happen, good work, good service and talking to 'em and showing that you can make a difference.
    I have EGA gals that used to get their stuff done out of garages..they miss the prices...but that's all, I offer service, consistency, quality service. And a steady pricing model. Upfront business style based on a relationship with the people...
    the peeps that go back to the garage folk in the other town it was just about price and they MISS my work.

    Hang on and stick to your guns....it will all come out in the wash.
    And if you folks are working out of your garages and doing it straight up, I wish you well and make a mint, just do it honestly. I want to compete based on legitimacy then the field is even...you can have the lower prices and I have to pay for the foot traffic...it's all a trade off. Best Wishes, I mean it.
  47. Jeff Rodier

    Jeff Rodier SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I knew that Ylva got the point after her first post. Excellent summary statement here Ylva.
  48. Luddite

    Luddite PFG, Picture Framing God

    Oh WOW....I actually agree with you for once...Well said! L.
  49. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Thanks anyway, Paul, but it will take a lot more than 12 steps to get me out of that job. It's waaaay too much fun.

    How did you like the new wall cutter and the laser sights? And how 'bout that new aluminum composite shadowbox, eh?
  50. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Not sure how I feel about those things, Jim. Once I discovered that you're a lot bigger than me I was afraid to step into that booth. :)
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