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Switching from pre-joined to length

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by KevinAnnala01, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. KevinAnnala01

    KevinAnnala01 True Grumbler

    Based on conversations with reps, etc, it seems that most are going from cutting and joining their own mouldings, to either chop, or pre-joined. I've had 2 reps suggest to continue having them do the joins, however, being in sales, I can see how that ads to their bottom line. I'm looking to be able to offer a few package pricing mouldings in studio, and to sell online while increasing margins a bit. I realize that labour is more, and there's a waste factor, however, at the end of the day when factoring this in, the COG are simply much lower. Canvas bars by box, plus a very limited selection of basics. The rest, either chops, or joined on more complex items.

    It seems that cost of space may be a main driver, to house the equipment and stock. Could be wrong though.

    It also seems that if "most" people seem to be going the route of purchasing joined, am I missing something by doing the opposite and going towards chops, length, and some boxed when everyone else is switching to joined? What am I missing here? What are some of the main factors that had you switch? I'm not doing so to decrease prices, I'm doing so to get a better margin, and to be able to capture some commercial work, from people that simply do not purchase at retail.
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  2. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    So tell us about your space: do you have sufficient space for storage, cutting, joining? Do you have enough time in a day to chop and join? Do you have enough retail space to display ready-mades?

    Can you handle the dust? Do you have the equipment?

    If you're comfortable doing it yourself, go for it.
  3. KevinAnnala01

    KevinAnnala01 True Grumbler

    I can store some limited stock on the roof, horizontally if I rig a bracket system up and support so that it does not sag. My dust and noise tolerance is very low, so I'll be getting a chopper, and using it mostly for canvas stretcher stock, and the limited box moulding will be chopper friendly. I have limited space that I can make work, however, right now no retail space, but that will change by the end of the this year.
  4. KevinAnnala01

    KevinAnnala01 True Grumbler

    As far as time goes, as of right now I am happy to trade some time for an increase in margin. Currently I drive to pick up stretcher bar every other day, so can offset and likely come out a bit ahead on the time factor.

    Thanks for asking the questions, as it helps with some things I might not have otherwise thought about...
  5. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    Once you have the capability, time, and space, all you need is money. Money to pay for the opportunities that will come your way: volume buys, close-outs, deals from reps or suppliers who will hunt you down and entice you to buy.

    You'll be surprised at how fast you can sell ready-mades to artists and the public in general, and if you have the rest of the package on hand, you can sell the whole thing on the spot.

    But there are negatives: you'll be seeing bad lengths, just like the hockey sticks I had to work with today. You'll be expanding, whether you want to or not.. You'll be screwing up more than you'd like. Your waste will explode. Your suppliers will ship 18 feet when all you needed was 9. And if they do ship 9, there will be a dent right in the wrong spot, and you'll miss your deadline.
    artfolio and neilframer like this.
  6. David Waldmann

    David Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    As my (rather astute) uncle used to say "having the same people 'tune up' your furnace as sells you the oil is a bit sketchy, no?".

    Of course the reps want you to buy chop. It's a Value Added Service, and the more they sell the better off both they and their company are.

    Anecdotally (I figure we service a statistically insignificant level of frame shops) the vast majority of our "retail custom frame shops" do buy chops. I would guess that over 90% do so. Does that mean it's the "best" way to do business? Only YOU can answer that question. Just because it's a trend doesn't mean it's something for you.

    Chop works for a lot of people. Are you "a lot of people"? If so, buy chop. OTOH, if you can make it work, there is a lot more potential for profit in buying length,.

    IOW there is no one simple clear-cut answer, other than "you must make a profit" (otherwise you won't be around long enough to even pretend to have an answer).
    TurnerAssociatesdy likes this.
  7. Andrew Lenz Jr.

    Andrew Lenz Jr. MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I want control. Ideally, the only time I'd order chop is if it's a moulding that we couldn't sell on a regular basis . . . such as a very wide ornate moulding. We have probably 40,000 feet of moulding in our warehouse, I'd guess. We want to be able to recut a frame side (defects) and not delay our customer's order. We want to assemble the frame perfectly. I can't rely on a warehouse worker to do it as well as my staff can.

  8. framestudio

    framestudio CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I order length from vendors who offer truck delivery in my area. Chops from all other vendors, never join, I don't trust someone else joining my frames.
    I do price things out between length and chop and order the most cost effective solution. All scraps cut down into table top frames.
  9. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Kevin, you need to find a new sales rep, and possibly a new supplier. That is total BS.
  10. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The opposite - truck means joined. My suppliers with join programs do a superb job on joins. No more waste, warped, or mismatched length or chop. The join prices are cheaper than the labor in joining chops myself. I don't inventory frames, so I can comfortably sell any of my 2000 plus samples.
  11. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    Whether you chop and join your own materials or pay to have that done should be reflective of your business model, and it should be flexible enough to adapt to changing markets.
    When I started we didn't do chops. All mouldings were purchased from one of a few regional vendors and we stocked about 100 profiles. Chops became more important as volume increased and we started seeing an uptick in metal moulding sales. It also increased our range of offerings and increased productivity. Worked great until a recession hit with freight charges and material costs needed to be better controlled, and our time wasn't as valuable. Your model changes a bit depending on feast or famine. There are many other considerations including local and regional economic health.

    Take what a rep says with a grain of salt. What I see locally is more length purchasing vs. chop/join.
    TurnerAssociatesdy likes this.
  12. KevinAnnala01

    KevinAnnala01 True Grumbler

    Thanks for the insight you guys.
  13. 1banjo

    1banjo Grumbler

    I would say that we used ready made frames at the first shop I worked in the second job chopped their own and was pisse poor chops! in my own shop I use chops as I was not set up to start with to cut my own and one of my suppliers chopped sucked so I got motivated to get the equipment to cut my own but like some have said & I too use some chops on the more expensive moldings that I will not stock
  14. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    might I suggest a mixed hybrid system? We did a few frames and found on items we sold often we bought box, for some things once in awhile length by bundle, for difficult or very expensive mldg we would by join. Imagine a $20ft/mldg you sell once in a blue moon with a distinctive profile. You need 8ft; bundle is 15ft. 7ft times $20 is a lot of dust gathering inventory. Chop cures a part of that, but some mldgs tougher than others to join

    Like I said, we had a mixed program

    side hint: ask for a discount from rep if you are doing many c/j. It's the highest margin product they offer. Think you have no leverage? Tell rep a competing lne has offered a discount on c/j if you shift a bunch of biz to them. No one wants to give up biz to a competitor. The worst thing is to 'not ask'
    TurnerAssociatesdy and shayla like this.
  15. framer1

    framer1 CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    I'm doing the reverse, I'm going from chopping and joining to 100% joined.
  16. tedh

    tedh PFG, Picture Framing God

    One other comment:

    Listen to your Rep, but talk to your driver.

    My rep was pushing chop and join, because "90% of his customers bought chop and join".

    Next time I had a delivery, I asked the driver if he had a lot of join volume. His reply? "Nah. Everybody buys length".
  17. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I did an experiment over 3 months on three different occasions. Then I asked a half dozen framers to do the same experiment. Goes like this ...
    for an extended period (one week minimum) buy length, but get and record your best price chop cost for the same frames.
    (If the chop is less, like for very wide frame on an 8x10, by all means buy the chop.)
    Cut the frames and time how long it takes you to turn the length into chops. Be generous and take your time. Don't try to hurry.
    Record the time. At the end of the period, add up the time. Add the cost of all the chops and add the cost of ALL the length you had to buy.
    Pretend you threw away the extra length. Even if you had 8 feet left of a two stick buy. (Of course, I save it, or turn it into photo frames.)

    Then, subtract the cost of the length from the cost of the chops. Divide the savings by the time.

    For EVERYONE that has done the test, the hourly "earned rate" (what you "got paid" for chopping by spending less) has been $200 to $250 per hour.
    Yep, I'll take that pay any day.

    I buy short length for everyone except Vermont Hardwoods. I don't have a Hoffman and the resultant joins they get are better than I can do with my joiner on their hardwood mouldings.

    For Joins, I find the savings in time vs $ to be a wash, but none of my vendors actually can produce an acceptable join on a consistent basis.

    So, over $200 an hour? You still buying chop?
  18. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    I'm curious, as to how many of these were 'one frame' length buys, or for batches of the same frame size/design.
  19. DSR7

    DSR7 True Grumbler

    I think there's a little bit more to it than just that. The time used, whether it is worth $250/hour or not, might be better used (more profitable) or even necessary for other endeavors. This can be especially true for smaller shops (1-2 employees) where time can be even more valuable. The time saved not inspecting and chopping length (not to mention chopper/saw blade wear & tear and maintenance and the added chance of losing an appendage or two :) ) could be used toward speedier turnaround time, waiting on customers and cultivating more sales, or focusing on other aspects of the business. The added "cost" of chops can be easily nullified in POS programs. Sure, you could work 70 hours every week and "make" an extra $250+ by chopping your own length, but let's not forget that we all would like to have a life to enjoy on the side of the business as well. Or so we tell ourselves, lol.
  20. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Better used? on what? Marketing? for over $200 I can hire someone to work comparable time and still have money left over. And, i get the added benefit of hiring someone who knows how to do marketing, accounting, or whatever I need done that I'm not as good at.
  21. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    all kinds but mostly (by a significant amount) one frame length buys.
  22. Larry Peterson

    Larry Peterson PFG, Picture Framing God

    For those buying length, inventory management is an important consideration.

    99% of my sales are online; thePaperFramer.Com since 2001 and Etsy since 2015. I sell over 300 mouldings, all of them kept in stock. My goal is to ship every frame within 48 hours or receiving an order. I can only do that if I have it in stock. Buyers online expect things right away and I try to deliver.

    I have about 18000 feet of moulding in stock and keeping track of it is part of the daily work. A POS isn't of any use to me online but for those that have a POS, I would presume that it allows you to keep track of inventory. I use an Excell workbook where I keep count by full stick, 3/4 stick and 1/2 stick and by rack#. Anything smaller is kept in a wall of shorts as I sell a lot of small frames. Every time I make a frame, I update the workbook.

    One of the worst things that can happen is to make a sale and find out I don't have it in stock. Luckily I don't remember the last time that happened. Or to show it in stock and not be able to find it.

    The majority of my mouldings are sold on both sites but some are sold on only one. The type of customer is very different on each site. Basic black is the norm on thePaperFramer. Everything except black on Etsy.

    I have discount deals with most of my vendors based on certain footage. Some are 35%, some are 45%. Because of that, I only order when I have enough footage to get the discounts. I also scour the clearance mouldings and sometimes buy out what they have left. My most popular mouldings I buy by the box. Ordering only periodically means I have to stay on top of what is in stock. I will remove a moulding from the sites if I have low stock and won't be ordering for a while. Then I have to remember (sometimes I forget) to put it back online.

    My sales/inventory model may not fit many of you but perhaps there is a tidbit here that might be of interest.

    BTW, for whatever it is worth, I have never ordered chop or join.
  23. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    i think the 'uncalculated' cost is the 5-6ft short left over that may not ever get used

    as I said, we used all three methods depending circumstances; 90% length with over half 'box pricing'

    the other big 'profit drains' I saw were 'too many' vendors reducing the volume to qualify for volume discounts and ordering single chops with increasing shipping costs

    I realize most shops nay not have many choices but 'better' buying can easily be the quickest path to better profit

    another thread unto itself
  24. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    On his site, Ken Bauer used to have a free download of a worksheet for doing a length, chop & join pricing analysis.
  25. David Waldmann

    David Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Not to belittle it (or anyone), but if you can't do that on your own, should you be on your own? To me, that is one of the most fundamental questions a frame shop owner needs to ask themselves on a per-order/daily/monthly basis.

    Then again, looking at it from an outsiders view may give perspective. But the basic question remains - do you really know what you're doing?
    Joe B, tedh and Bob Carter like this.
  26. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    And that's probably why he put the worksheet there, lol. Besides, there's no significant correlation between IQ and wealth.
    shayla likes this.
  27. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Bob, in my experiment, you THROW IT AWAY and you still make well over $200/hr

    IMO, Ken's analysis is flawed in at least two ways.
    1) He incorporates storage, inventory, and equipment costs into his calculation. This is valid for a shop trying to start out, but an established shop has already made commitments in those areas. Unless your landlord gives you a rebate on space you don't use?
    2) He assumes that the time you save you will use "to improve your business." The example is usually marketing or social media. The biggest flaw there is that this is probably not your skill set or you would be doing it. (better to make more money so you can pay someone)
    Joe B likes this.
  28. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Interesting comments here.

    Before selling my shop in 2015, I stocked about 50-75 profiles, which I purchased in various lengths. mostly they ranged from 20-50 feet per purchase, and I bought only a few in box quantities. Mind you, my business was (and still is) quite small, employing only 1-1/2 people. So, 1,000 to 2,000 feet of moulding is a lot to keep on hand.

    Those stock mouldings accounted for about 50% to 60% of my orders, but a smaller percentage of my revenue and a larger percentage of my gross profit. The rest of my orders were assembled using purchased chops, but I almost never bought joined frames.

    The subject of this thread involves decisions about cost-per-foot, investment of labor to cut/join, the what-to-do-with-leftovers quandry, and quality considerations related to depending on suppliers to cut/join (they're seldom the best and sometimes unacceptable).
  29. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    hi Cliff not following; could you supply the Cliff Notes version of your experiment:D. $200/HR? Means making over $400k yearly. Not sure how many shops even approach $400k in revenue
  30. cvm

    cvm PFG, Picture Framing God

    I think I misspoke. I thought I had seen a link to a worksheet on Ken's site a couple years back, but it must've been somewhere else. I just looked for it over there and there is no such thing.

    FWIW, we stock about 20K feet.
  31. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I know a long-established framer who never buys chops - always length. It is not uncommon to use 20 feet ($40 worth) of moulding, plus $20 shipping, to build a $100 framing order requiring less than 10 feet of moulding. Due to warps, twists, and finish flaws, it is often necessary to cut a couple of extra rails, but left-overs go into the trash.

    Considering that it takes 15-30 minutes of applied labor on the moulding to receive, unpack, inspect, set up the tools, cut, join, and clean up; plus labor and materials for matting, mounting, glass, fitting & finishing, could this be profitable?

    It would seem that for one-off custom framing orders like this, when moulding is not already in stock, buying chops makes more sense than buying length.
    shayla and ckelley like this.
  32. David Waldmann

    David Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'm sure the CLIFF notes (LOL) will be more relevant, but my take is that he's saying "during the time spent chopping versus buying chop you can earn $200/hour or more".
  33. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    hey David -perhaps there is an explanation, i'm not very good with numbers

    it was just our experience that we used all three methods on occassion. May I suggest that we used three suppliers and I will venture that each may have cut more chops in a day than many stores would do in two weeks. We just never had any issues on quality of chops or joins. They were as good as we did with an occassional snafu

    never forget all prices are negotiable. From memory, we paid our 'negotiated' chop price plus $4 to join. During heavy volume periods like Christmas we may order 20-25 C/J's a day. We could never keep up without it

    Bottom line: do what works best for you

    may i suggest if your pricing is off the printed page, then all bets are off. Negotiate, negotiate, negotiate
    TurnerAssociatesdy, DSR7 and ckelley like this.
  34. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

  35. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    There is an article on his site that details his process pretty well. There is a link there for a worksheet, but it won't let me download it. Maybe you need special permission or something. But, given the description it shouldn't be hard to create a worksheet if you want.
  36. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    yes. Maybe I need a different terminology. It's "per hour savings" by not spending the extra money on chops.
  37. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Ken Baur is an excellent instructor on business issues for framers, a successful framing business owner, and consultant to the industry. Ken is a friend and I know a few framers whom he has helped. They report excellent results, so I have a great deal of respect for his advice.

    For more on Ken and his work, go to KB Consulting.
  38. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    thanks Cliff been away from actual numbers, but guessing average joe cuts and joins one frame every 15 min, did you find an average savings difference for length vs chop $50-60? Compared to just joining chops at maybe every 10min

    We always found orders per day to help in deciding. However, we stocked the majority of orders from Box pricing which makes theargument moot

    I know you are good with numbers, so absent hard numbers let's agree that your findings were valid in your operation

    and, isn't that the point? Find what works for you?
    TurnerAssociatesdy likes this.
  39. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'm sorry, but if it takes 15 minutes to cut a frame they are going out of business.
    Remember that the experiment is not including joining.
    When a chop comes in it still needs miters colored, and whatever joining method you are using.
    The only time that is valid is the time to cut and/or a little time to unwrap, but remember, you have to unwrap the chop too.
    I will also note that I asked others to experiment. Mine was the lowest number.
    I actually did the initial experiment using my single miter saw. back and forth, back and forth.
    I have a double miter Pistorius now. MUCH Faster! I'm sure my numbers are even better now.

    OK, I just reread your post. I guess you're saying five minutes to cut a frame. I still think that's a long time, but maybe if they are really slow. So, ONE example. Larson 471570 13 x 10 3/8 chop @ 30% off is 61.05 9' is 56.70, you throw away 3 feet. IF it actually takes you 5 minutes (I think it's less than half that) then you are saving at a rate of $58/hour.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
    Joe B likes this.
  40. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    like I said, I'm not very good with numbers
  41. artfolio

    artfolio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    5 Minutes to cut a frame?? That sounds to me more like the 400 yard golf drive or the 100 yard fishing cast - heard more often than seen.

    If you are cutting a batch of frames all the same sizes with the same moulding with a good double mitre saw you may manage it but with mixed sizes and different mouldings it would just about take that long to fetch the moulding and put the offcuts back on the rack. If you are nibbling through the sticks with a guillotine or using something like my Prisma and taking any care at all with your work 5 minutes would be pretty good going.
  42. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I agree with Cliff, 5 minutes is no problem with a guillotine or a saw. I'm are just talking about cutting the frame. Even moving the cut-off back into the bin along with the cutting shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.
  43. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I just broke out the stop watch and including starting the clock, putting it down safely away from the saw, chopping the frame at a careful and leisurely pace on a single miter saw, and walking back over to the clock to stop it, it took 1 minute and 48 seconds. That was for a one off, not a production run.

    neilframer likes this.
  44. David Waldmann

    David Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    We just finished a very large production run. It took 1 minute per frame to Hoffmann 35mm deep slots. The "Hoffmanner" was always behind the chopper. And that's using a manual foot operated Morso, not a double miter saw.

    So, 5 minutes does seem very generous.
    FramerCat likes this.
  45. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think when you amortize your time over a few months it's even less than that, but, if you use 1 min 48 sec and the single price difference I pointed out [which I think may be low] ((cost of chop - cost of length) * minutes ) / 60 == ((61.05 - 56.70) * 1.8 (48 sec is .8 minutes) / 60 == you get $145 / hour.

    As I said, a bunch of us running the experiment over 1 week to 3 months all were between $200 and $250 an hour. I think even at the $145 it's a really hard argument to say buying chop makes sense if you have the ability to cut.

    {not to lose the caveat that some small number of cases have advantages not factored in like Vermont's handling of their hardwoods.}
    FramerCat likes this.
  46. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    so, where does that $250/hr end up? P/L? Bank Account?

    Numbers aren't my long suite but I might be more willing to accept that, in this case anyway, you saved $4.55 (61.70-56.70). Since I never cut frames, i'llaccept time value

    Personally, I always thought the cost differences were much greater

    My favoritechop v length story involved a company with fairly expensive mldgs. We didn't sell a lot so stocking was not wise and our discounts were industry average. Everytime we neeed 12ft we ordered 12ft but received 15, 16,17ft. With a mldg at $6/ft that extra 5ft was at this case $30 more or about 40% higher. Questioned why always the overage? To be certain we had enough. In this case chops were cheaper, especially considering freight.

    Wouldn't you love to be able to tack on another $30 to your orders? Their policy was to grab a 'longer' short bundle than ordered

    Bottom line: we adjusted 'retail' prices in POS to make sure 'we had enough'. Result: price zoomed out of our 'customers happy zone'. Shortly after, those samples simply didn't support the 'value of our wall space' and were replaced with product that turned better generating some 'real' bankable monet

    But, like I said, I'm not that good with the numbers
  47. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Yes, the $200 - $250 winds up in your back account because it doesn't come out to pay a bill you didn't create.

    Also winds up on your P&L, because your expenses are less. Which might send us into a different rabbit hole, "variable labor." Mr. Wedgewood was brilliant in the early 1800s when he invented "Cost Accounting" to analyze manufacturing systems. But, we apply the tool in too many cases today, frame shops being one of the mistake places.
  48. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    reminds me when Sandy comes back from shopping loaded with bags and says she saved me $500 with the things she didn't buy:D:D:D. Bottom line: Went to 'well known' Price list. Item showed with 20% Length Discount @ $4.31. Chop @ $10.48ft. Lets say we need 7ft and Chop will cost you $73.36 assuming no freight. Order short bundle and you will likely get 12ft or more. Assuming 12ft, that will cost you $51.72 saving about $21. Freight can be a factor, chop probably a couple of bucks less

    Unwrap chop, then join-couple of minutes
    unwrap length, cut, find new home for cut offs, then join-couple of minutes more, I'm guessing?

    walk me through that $250 againo_O

    now, box pricing around $3.01 and it becomes another matter

    never was much good at numbers but if you 'save' $250 in that scenario then I guessed she really did save me $500. Next time she ought to hit a few more stores and 'save' me a ton more :eek:

    i agree with premise of chops v length pricing difference, just not your 'savings'

    but, it is nice to chat again
  49. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    The big difference is you have to buy length or chop, she doesn't have to buy the dress. You will be spending money on a frame, the only question is "how much?"

    Forget join. you have to do it no matter what. assume you throw away the left over. you decide to keep it or not with different criteria. the only time that "counts" is cutting, because that's the ONLY difference. apply your savings to the time you cut. normalize the time to an hour. my claim is that if it takes you two full minutes to cut a frame, you're a sloth. Of the 7 of us that have actually done that with OUR discounts and timers, the LEAST any of us calculated was $200/hour
  50. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Great! go send your wife shopping for a dress with that $200:p:p

    Maybe a fun question might be did you turn that $250 savings into 'real' revenue? Or are you saying that had shop "B" used a chop they saw revenue reduced by $200?

    awhile back some guys from ENRON went to jail making assumptions like thato_Oo_O
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