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The Industry Needs a Marketing Association and Affiliation With Home Furnishings

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Paul Cascio, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Ed, although I'm a PPFA member, I simply don't know.

    I am tired of hearing 'what's in it for me'. Membership dues are 175, for a year. That is less than $15 a month. Are we seriously demanding 'what's in it for me' for that amount????? Talking about being realistic. (not talking to you directly, you know that I hope!)

    My own, personal impression: if there is a well thought out plan, with a clear budget of cost and new ideas, they would be listening. Look at how FrameFest took of. With more vendors wanting to join next year, with more people keeping it in the back of their minds to maybe attend.

    Right now there is a lot of talk and no direction. It's not the first time, it's not a new idea. I think most people do have a little 'sit back and let's see what happens' mentality. We would need a kind of business plan, same as when you set up a whole new business and want to talk to the bank.

    I am not an organizer. I don't know how I would go about this. Maybe start with the content, start with the message we want to send. Then explore how it can be done, cost effective. It has to be pretty general if everyone needs to profit from it.

    You will be stuck with general tv clips, with will benefit the whole industry. But if I see that people don't want to join the PPFA for less than $15 a month, why do we believe this will work?

    This does not mean I want it to fail. Just in case that will be implied
  2. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    Oh Ed, you couldn't be more off base and have totally misinterpreted my intent. If you re-read what I said, I am on the framer's side. There is no defensiveness or wish that there would not be new educators or a new show. My post was about hoping that framers would not put off for nine months (January vs September) attending what is the biggest educational venue in the US. This isn't disparagement on what any PPFA or DECOR or other education might be at the DECOR show in Atlanta.

    You have never been to WCAF nor have been to a combined PPFA/WCAF venue. There is nothing like it anywhere. I have taught and taken classes at both. Even with the 8 classes I taught last year, my classes hardly made a dent in the overall education. There are SO many classes on SO many subjects. There are "hands on" workshops and also lectures. Even with the "all you can possibly cram into a 24 hour day pass", it wouldn't be possible to even attend a fifth of the offerings. The National Conference is a well run "machine" put on by people who really know what they are doing.

    I have not been asked to teach at either venue in January and my posting is not me "brown nosing" the promoters in hope to get a job. Nor have I ever used the fact that I teach as a component of marketing or promoting my company.

    I have been in classes where the "instructor" clearly was unprepared to teach the class and also in a PPFA/PMA sponsored class where an "outside" educator (who was supposed to teach "retail strategy" to framers) admitted that his entire "framing experience" was visiting a "big box" store and felt that all framing retailers were "exactly like that." He was so out of touch with the needs/experiences of an "average" framer that the class was a "complete waste of time."

    My wife, Barbara came to me after a class (and so has Kirstie Bennett) who also felt "robbed" that they devoted 2 precious hours of their time (and paid for the classes) for an instructor who clearly didn't know what they were talking about and couldn't string three words together in a sentence. So I wonder about poster who said they would "willingly take a class from someone who hadn't taught before." It isn't my "fear" of new blood as a threat to my teaching- but my fear that others would have a similar bad experience.
  3. art goddess

    art goddess Grumbler

    I can't imagine why anyone would not want to do their own marketing and branding vs. a one size fits all approach for the entire industry. . There is so much good information in trade magazines and at shows and PPFA events to get effective and diverse marketing ideas I can't imagine why we should expect PPFA or our vendors to provide that. Why wouldn't we each be responsible to promote "need frame" in our unique ways in our communities instead?

    And, Rob, why wouldn't you use your credentials as an industry leader to promote your business? An impressive resume that shows experience and expertise shows a level of credibility few of us share. Why would that be wrong?
  4. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Here's a link to a November, 2007 Grumble thread discussing the PMAI/PPFA plan inspired and led by Dennis Conforto:

    There were several other threads around the time of the 2007 DecorExpo that consisted of similar context. The conversations back then, and in every such thread I can recall, have all been very similar to this thread. That is, every one of the ideas was worthy of consideration; some were highly developed and others were, like this one, purely conceptual. Some of the concepts could have succeeded, except that they never got off the ground because a critical mass of framers were, for an infinite number of reasons, unwilling to make a financial commitment.

    Ed, there's a terrific amount of information in the Grumble archives about past efforts to gather framers into group marketing programs.
  5. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Randy, I don’t want to name names, but I have repeatedly contacted several members of the local PPFA chapter and I never get a useful response if any response at all. If no one can simply answer whether a PPFA event is open to non-PPFA members why should I drive an hour away to find out I can’t get in. I am not going to waste my time calling every local PPFA member to find a better impression of this chapter. I really don’t need any hand holding. I have formed my opinion of this chapter and now if the chapter cares it is up to them to change it. I only mention these things because if a customer of mine had an inaccurate opinion of my business I would want to know so that I could make an informed decision as to whether to try to win them over or let it go. I am simply extending the same courtesy to the PPFA. In another thread I explained that I used to go to the Décor shows and Framarama or whatever it was called. I just haven’t been to the Vegas show mainly because of personal issues. I have however, gotten a lot of useful information from members of other chapters. I do not have a bad impression of the PPFA overall, but if I were to join a chapter that is not active or responsive how can I be of any use? What do I do, sign up, march in (to where by the way) and declare that I am taking over some aspect of the chapter? I really have no idea how the organization works. Maybe somebody can explain how the chapters are set up, and specifically mine.

    Rob, that is not my assertion I am only saying that the appearance exists whether it is true or not, otherwise other people would not be saying the same thing independently. You have repeatedly explained your position and I am willing to believe you. By educators, I am not necessarily referring to you. No names were thrown around. Some parts of these conversations may apply to you and some may not. Just for the record, I have never put down the offerings of the Vegas show. I wouldn’t be able to offer an opinion since I have never seen it, but I hope to see it one day. Just like you have not seen what Décor will be offering this year. Anything any of us say about the Décor show is just speculation. In the other thread I agreed with you that an educator needs to know how to teach and that is a separate skill from being a framer. Does the PPFA have classes on teaching? Maybe it should, because what happens when you retire? I really don’t think that framers are making a choice between the two shows. I really think that framers happy with the west coast show are still going to go to it. It really seems we are in agreement on things once again we just seem to have a hard time reading each other. Sorry, I know most of what I said here should be on another thread but I thought I would answer some questions.

    Back to the subject, if the PPFA wants to run an ad campaign I am all for it. I’d even join and help out if they want me. If they can’t I understand. Until I get an official answer I am going forward with my attempt and Paul should move forward with his. It’s our time and money to waste. We have made attempts like these before and we know the obstacles. Constructive input is always welcome but saying we can’t do it is contrarian and defeatist. We can’t wait for the PPFA especially if they are not interested and I have no idea whether they are or not.

    Thanks Jim, I have been going through and I have learned a lot from those conversations. There are some brilliant people here.
  6. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    This sure looks like the PPFA equivalent of a filibuster. Hijack the thread and talk about anything but the idea that the industry needs a marketing assocation. And Markoff of course is going to tell us how wonderful he is and do some sucking up to PPFA and WCAF. And in alternate posts he'll tell us that his speaking fee is $1000 for two hours; and that he makes hardly any money from those gigs.

    So how about staying on topic or start your own PPFA thread about how wonderful it is.
  7. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    Excuse me Paul you made it about the PPFA! you dropped the chum in the water and got the exact response you where looking for.

    Ed "Randy, I don’t want to name names, but I have repeatedly contacted several members of the local PPFA chapter and I never get a useful response if any response at all. If no one can simply answer whether a PPFA event is open to non-PPFA members why should I drive an hour away to find out I can’t get in."

    Chapter events are ALWAYS open to everyone, no one is ever turned away, as member you get a discount to attend typically. If you have an issue with your chapter contact Ellen Collins you wont get any bull ####.
  8. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    "Back to the subject, if the PPFA wants to run an ad campaign I am all for it. I’d even join and help out if they want me. If they can’t I understand. Until I get an official answer I am going forward with my attempt and Paul should move forward with his. It’s our time and money to waste."

    The quote thing is not happening. The PPFA promotes framing in general and good framing practices and standards, we provide special deals on insurance and vendor discounts, the job of 99% of any trade organization. Years ago we produced an number of ads that members could use at considerable expense, most do not use them because it does not fit their concept, they are still on the website. You cannot create individual campaigns for hundreds of members. If you want to learn about marketing, ads, social media, when the best time to boost a post on Facebook is then join the PPFA and get to know your framing buddies, we don't compete, we each learn from on another and are very giving. You can get it from a forum but it's not the same. If everyone agreed to pay $1000 a year for dues it might, until then I would keep your extra money and redo the samples on your wall.

  9. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Quick comment about $1000 gigs

    I used to teach a lot; classes cost $95, I think, because I wanted no corporate sponsorship. normally had 75-100 attendees.

    Never got paid even half of the posted fee. Always needed some one to travel with me. Between 2 airfares, hotels, meals and cabs usually lost money. Add what I lost at Blackjack tables?

    enjoyed every minute getting to visit with old friends, meeting new friends, teaching, sharing, learning

    Get rich? Had I stayed home, worked the stores, would have made a ton more

    Fame? Fortune? Are you kidding? Fame amongst 3000 people of whom 15% can't wait to tell you how stupid you are? LOL

    I think almost all educators can share similar.

    but, the big payoff?

    some framer walks up to you and says "i took your class last year and used your xxxxx and has made such difference. Thanks'

    one of the few times I get speechless

    Get Rich? Get Real!
  10. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    Paul you are such a bitter troll. Show me where I ever said that my speaking fee is $1000 for two hours. I never said it.
  11. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    Guys, even if you strongly disagree with one another, getting mired in a defensive back-&-forth,
    especially when it devolves to personal slams, does nothing but harm to your stated goals.
  12. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Paul, you and I must be reading different threads?!?
    What I have seen is
    • most people supporting the idea of some form of national campaign.
    • supported to the extend that they DID support many of the previously failed attempts.
    • A call for PPFA to get involved, with responses explaining what PPFA IS CURRENTLY DOING!
    • some people trying to get their head around how "this" attempt might be different than the past ones.
    • very little derailing except to answer posters questions.

    How's this ...
    If you (or anyone) can put a proposal together that I think has a chance, I will find the right PPFA committee to discuss it and bring it to the International board for consideration.
  13. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    First of all I did not start this conversation to bash the PPFA, it was started to discuss what many view as critical needs of the industry. But apparently the collective and chronic insecurities of the PPFA, and its representatives who post here, produces a knee-jerk defensiveness.

    I am happy to let the PPFA do what it does. However, after watching the industry shrink by about 50% during the recession while the PPFA was insisting that marketing was not its role, I realized that the industry needed an association that would embrace such a role, and that association could not be the PPFA.

    For a long time, I've also felt that the DNA of our industry is far more similar to the home furnishings industry than to the distant cousin photography industry. So I start a thread to discuss these things and I get attacked.

    So now the PPFA all of a sudden is interested in doing more than barely paying lip service to a role that should have been at least equal to its other interests.

    But now, it's too late. The PPFA no longer has the confidence, support, and respect of the rank and file of this industry. And it will never be the marketing association of this industry after saying for the longest time, even while operating under the auspices of the Photo Marketing Association, that marketing was not its function.
  14. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Now that you declared yourself spokesman for the rank and file of the industry use your charming personality, leadership skills and keen knowledge of business issues to start a new marketing association.

    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2014
  15. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Oh I get it. If I criticize the PPFA, or even just ask for views about the need for a marketing association, the stock response is that I should solve world hunger and produce world peace. Let me reach into my left pocket and pay for it all too.

    Love that PPFA bunker mentality.
  16. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm editing my reply to Paul because it was too personal. Gotta go because if I post again I'll surely be banned.

  17. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    Okay, you say you are not bashing the PPFA. Please reread how you started this discussion.....

    How are the areas I highlighted not blaming the PPFA for our downfall? If you weren't bashing you could have started with Since the PPFA's primary purpose is to provide the industry education I think it is time we address the need of a marketing and advertising association possibly aligning with the home furnishing industry. Simple as that. Nobody would have gotten defensive with that. Your intended goal was to get a rise out of the PPFA people. I'm no longer a member since I no longer have a store but one of the best things I did for my business was join and become very involved in our chapter. It is hard to see the same old attacks on people who give their time to make the industry better. If you really think the PPFA is hurting the industry and themselves then quit with the Rush Limbaugh tactics and offer a viable solution.

    Please explain exactly where the money would come from from our current association to accomplish your goals? Take their budget and appropriate it to the proper direction and show them what they have done wrong. Lets see how far you can get on their funds to set the world on fire with your big master plan. Quit pointing out all their faults and show them how to fix it.
  18. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Doug, I really didn't have a problem with your comment. I didn't agree with it of course, but I didn't think it was below the belt.

    Emibub, nice job, I do wish I would have written it exactly as you did. However, what I stated was true, the PPFA has steadfastly maintained that it is not a marketing association, despite marrying into the P Marketing A.

    I did note that my intent was not to knock the PPFA, that I was accepting of its role, but felt we needed an additional organization whose mandate was marketing.

    If you look at the similar reaction from many of the same PPFA respondents who went out of their way to urinate on the thread announcing an Atlanta trade show, I believe you would see an ugly trend that I and others have seen.
  19. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    We are talking about advertising - aren't we?

    I have stayed out of this so far as it was not really going well.

    i am very interested marketing, but at my own level, to benefit me.
    If a group of framers were to run a combined ad, then we might all benefit a little, but probably not as much as i would had i ran my own ad.

    the way i look i at if i am doing well then my suppliers are also doing well, it is a flow on affect.

    So, if you are looking at raising awareness for framing in general, look at framing suppliers who will benefit from a generic advert raising the awareness of framing.
    They will benefit more then any one individual shop.

    Once awareness is raised in the general public from suppliers, then you may see more framing shops jumping onto advertising media, so as their name is recognised. Therefore creating even more awareness, and perhaps to the point where the suppliers don't need to.

    In nut shell. If i was to spend money on advertising, it would be to directly benefit my business, not mine and my neighbours.

    If the suppliers were to advertise, then i would think they are not only doing something for their customers and the industry as a whole, but also to help their own sales. I think i would support this supplier more over others that did not, particularly if the ads were displaying their mouldings, potential customers are likely to want something they have seen.
  20. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Absolutely, I-Framer. Suppliers shouldn't get a free ride, but I think their participation can be accomplished voluntarily if the retailers favor those suppliers who are contributing a percentage of their sales to the marketing programs. It's verifiable and reasonable.

    My question was to see if framers thought there should be a marketing association, and should it be aligned with the home furnishings industry?
  21. Jennifer P

    Jennifer P True Grumbler

    I did have customers come in asking specifically for Larson Juhl because they saw the ads and if they were going to spend that much on a luxury item, they wanted something special, like a Name Brand!

    I don't think "Got Framing" is going to do us any good. I think if we support our suppliers we would get a lot further to what we all want, and that is business coming in our stores.
    I do believe in branding and the fact that most framers don't may be the whole problem.

    Again, just my humble opinion.
  22. Jennifer P

    Jennifer P True Grumbler

    And as far as "what do the 80s have to do with it"... My point was that people aren't framing like they use to in the 80s. Use to, in the 80s, if you put a sign out that you do framing, you were in business and doing well. It is not like that any more. That was my point. There are way more choices for your wall these days. A lot more competition for those walls. Styles and trends have change and we have to compete on a different level.

    And as far as education, what is it about framing that you don't understand? Marketing classes? yes. Options of tools for framing? yes, but framing, get real. There is just so much you can do with mats and frames.

    I spend my money wisely. I was a member of PPFA for years. Nice group of people, but since I don't take framing classes or fly to Vegas every year, they did not benefit me any longer.
    And since they don't do any marketing for me it was just a business decision to stop joining.
  23. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    Larson also provides lots of photos, Facebook posts, Tru Vue has promotional material, again the problem is hardly anyone uses it.
  24. Jennifer P

    Jennifer P True Grumbler

    I do and I have seen it work!! We need to support those that actually support our efforts!!
  25. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hi Jennifer

    I appreciate your comment on the 80's; most of us would refer to the 80's &90's as the good ol' days LOL. But framing continues at greater numbers-just not with independent framers

    We used the LJ cards aggressively. Don't remember anyone ever asking for a specific frame featured, but some did want to know where to get a print of the art in ad LOL
  26. Jennifer P

    Jennifer P True Grumbler

    Im glad someone remembers the good ole days! lol I must be showing my age!!
  27. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    My take with the PPFA is that should not be involved in a national campaign.
    And if they did, then it would be to get the message across that you should only visit a PPFA accredited picture framer.
    They have nothing to gain by promoting all picture framers, but should be promoting their own members.

    I believe that if the PPFA are providing assistance with advertising and promotional material, social media, tips tricks and ideas for marketing then they are fulfilling their role.

    Suppliers on the other hand, do need to be doing more.

    take the car industry for instance.
    Ford doesn't just advertise to the car yards about specials, hoping the car yards will buy more.
    they run adverts promoting their cars, raising awareness about their brand, making demand from the public.
    Ford then benefits when consumers start buying more Fords. Their car yards are also benefiting. And ford didn't have to discount their products.

    Also, if the independents whittle away, the bottom line of suppliers will be lost.
    big boxes as they get bigger don't rely on local suppliers, but go straight to the source.
    SO while it may seem the big boxes may also benefit from national advertising, it may also help to keep the indie's alive, and therefore the suppliers alive.
  28. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    in case you a wondering where the money might come from for the suppliers to run adds.

    Lets see.
    My average suppliers bill is around $10k a month.
    And i know there are framers that do a lot more then this and also some that don't. So lets call it average.

    If suppliers were to take just 0.5% or even increase prices by 0.5%. that would give them $50 a month per framer
    I know in Australia there is somewhere around the 2000-2500 framers.
    But lets say 2000 framers at $50 that is $100k a month for advertising.

    All the suppliers throw in 0.5% of there sales per year and that is a good lot of money for television campaigns.
    Don't forget it is also a tax expense they can claim as well.

    So all you need is an advertising agency to make ads, air them and invoice the suppliers, we are all happy then.

    Before making alliances with other industries don't you think we should have our own industry campaign.
  29. William Ross

    William Ross CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    PPFA had this program before. The vendors were asked to support a general advertising/Public Relations program, but the PPFA could not get vendor support in numbers to make it work. What the PPFA should be doing is providing the method to getting information about the values of Custom Picture Framing to the public with industry targeting programs. When the PPFA started in Califorina by Bill Korn and other industry leaders, they had the vision of promoting picture framing in general. When we started our local chapter back then it was to help each other and get more people to have things framed. The PPFA was in the business to promote and educate both the framer and the public with public promotions--local newspaper releases, radio and TV programs that the local framers could use. The PPFA even had a book showing how to do this on the local level.

    Yes, We're not in the PPFA. That is a long story which I will not cover again because I don't wish to open old sores. The National PPFA had money problems and they asked (or stronger) that we send our chapter money to them--the program didn't work and the independent PPFA was gone. As a local chapter we published a newsletter for the framers monthly (500 copies) supported by our vendors, we had tabletop shows and chapter monthly meetings attended by up to 300 people (50-60 each month). We even showcased one or two framers in chapter press releases to the local newspapers each month. Yes, I do think it is possible for the Chapter system to work, but only if the National PPFA is in the business of promoting Custom Picture Framing. Education is very important, but if the core base framing industry does not grow it is not the answer.
  30. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    i have seen 3 suppliers close their doors in the last 10 years.
    the only thing they did to stay a float was to offer framers more discounts.
    If framers have nothing to frame, and there is no demand, then no matter how big the discount framers won't buy.
    Then the supplier closes.

    None of like to see suppliers close their doors as it is a reflection on our industry, so perhaps we should all be getting behind and pushing our suppliers to do more to help themselves as well.

    I would personally throw in some money to a pot. So perhaps, it could be come an annual fee from the suppliers as an industry marketing fund. Suppliers could then match or throw in a percentage of their sales.
    All framers should have to contribute as well as suppliers. Without the contribution certificate you could not purchase from a supplier, this might also help to rid us of some of those one timers that go directly to suppliers.

    What are people thoughts on this. Who would agree to this and how much?
    I would and i would pay $500 a year to be part of Picture framers purchasing membership program.
  31. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Our market is shrinking. I don't think younger people ever thought about framing in the past and they don't do now. So that hasn't changed. There was a comment quite a while back, and I can't find it right now, that only 5% of the population (I can't remember the percentage, but it was low) will EVER frame something.

    You can brand all you want to that 5%. I am more interested in trying to get the remaining 95% into the door.

    It would be nice if our suppliers would run campaigns. But don't kid yourselves, they don't do it to support the frame shops. They don't even do it to sell more to those frame shops. Every supplier I deal with has the possibility to build a frame cut the mat and send a finished product to a customer. That does not bother anyone?

    Yes, I did get one customer asking for a Larson frame, when they ran their ads in home magazines.
  32. CB Art & Framing

    CB Art & Framing SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think Marketing is crucial. In fact I'll go as far as to say "It's Everything".
    Affiliations with any industry that furthers the cause is worth looking at.
  33. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    I think we should consider the different kinds of collective business systems that exist and not get them mixed up with each other.
    Trade Associations, Co-ops, Consortium's, Buying groups and Franchises.

    So many framers expect the PPFA Trade Association to provide the services of all five.

    From Wiki:>>>>The trade organization imposes relatively low membership dues on its members......, the trade organization lacks the ability to engage in offering its members national marketing capability,.....and cost-effective purchasing programs...... Furthermore, being non-profit, trade associations do not have the management mentality necessary to sustain major projects such as national sales and marketing. While offering potentially valuable services to businesses, few trade associations offer much direct help in the major business areas of purchasing, production or marketing.<<<<<

    The PPFA fits this description and it's rather pointless to carry on with the desire for it to be something else.

    For a decade I was involved in a photo franchise. I has some pretty good years as a franchisee. The Framing franchises in our industry nicely provide their members with a marketing association. The buy in and royalties are probably 100 times the dues of PPFA. 100 TIMES! Know that many find franchising a viable business model and succeed. Some also fail.

    For a decade I was part of a photo buying group. $2000 to join and $1200 per year. In the days of Go-Go photo this was money well spent. As photo waned I ended my membership but I watch my friends from the sidelines I see that it has turned into a marketing and business service provider. I believe this is a trend among buying groups.

    Instead of raging against PPFA step up and form a buying group, consortium or Co-op.

    The expectations and criticisms of PPFA far far exceed the cost of admission.

  34. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    For $175 a year too!
  35. John Ranes II CPF GCF

    John Ranes II CPF GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    Your last posting breaking down the business systems and expectations was excellent....

    Agreed and this is why I have been a member since 1978...36 years. The education, camaraderie, insurance benefits, certification have all contributed to our business getting stronger and myself becoming a better picture framer.

    When it cam to marketing and co-op marketing, I jumped into programs that were available at the time, like FramerSelect and the joint TV advertising with other local framers (as described previously). Those types of programs work and can work, but they require funding.

    We've discussed here Cliff Wilson's co-op TV spots as well with a group of Massachusetts framers. I just recalled that as a pro-PPFA distributor, Nelson's Moulding in Traverse City, Michigan did a subsidized TV spot for a group of area framers sometime in the past 3-4 years. As I recall, 10-30 frame shops were involved, so if anyone on this forum participated, perhaps you can share this experience.

    My guess is that after the under-written campaign was concluded, the framers themselves did not continue. Organization? Someone taking charge? Regardless, any program like this takes a dedicated marketing budget and this is where many of the independent frame shops fall short.

    As I mentioned previously, the The Art & Framing Council, once an arm within PPFA did create some excellent generic TV Spots that could have been utilized by members or a group of framers. They were test run in two-three markets (DC-Virginia comes to mind). I still believe that a shared TV Spot between 2-3 independent shops that share the same TV market can be an effective way of marketing.

  36. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    Regarding the OP, if you want to bring framing into the public view, here are few ideas.

    Partner with celebrity fashion designer, interior design, style guru, and other public figures across a board range of interest with influence. Then ever so deftly have the tweet, post, Instagram themselves with framed works, once in a while they can mention how much they love this frame by Larson Juhl or the Museum Glass by Tru Vue. Have them tweet that they are in the frame shop having a signed memento framed, which writer Neil Gaiman has done on occasion. Then build Pinterest boards for them to further influence people. You have to make it something people desire and here envy is a tool.

    Now times that by 10, and slowly plant your product placement seeds.

    Of course, all this will cost money.


    This picture is from Designer Nicole Gibbons, off target here but bring in someone like Nicole Gibbons or Neil Gaiman and paying them to be our Keynote speaker in Vegas, just might get the relationship going that we need.

    The world always seems brighter when you've just made something that wasn't there before.
    Neil Gaiman

    Here are our stats from the last Consumer Awareness Committee Midyear report, with current numbers.

    PPFA main page – 1/21/13, 316. 12/10/13, 604. 6/4/14, 746 9/25 813

    Twitter 1/21/13, 389 12/10/13, 653 6/4/14, 755 9/25 819 followers
    Pinterest 1/21/13, 219 12/10/13, 403 6/4/14, 502 9/25 561, with 65 alerts to current activity in one week.
    Instagram, New account 1/1/14, Start 6/14/14, 94 9/25 120 followers

    LinkedIn, New account, 6/14/14, 978 9/25 1009 members

    We also have several other Facebook pages and Google+ pages all of which need attention. We need people to write 300+ word blogs about framing that educates consumers. We need help posting on Pinterest, any one with a passion and understanding and willingness to help would be so welcome aboard, we need help posting, because it's more than posting pretty pictures, it is building influence.
  37. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    I start reading these threads because they are of interest to me. Shortly thereafter they devolve into a he said, she said, pissing match. That's when I stop reading.

    I never hit the moderator alert button because I choose to just stop reading and I probably miss out on a lot of important discussions between the pissing matches.

    All of you involved in the back and forth nonsense are starting to look like fools.

    There should be a difference between standing up for your cause and acting like asses. There no longer is.

    I suggest the moderator just lock the threads as soon as the vitriol starts flying.
  38. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well Mark, Welcome to the discussion. Your asses and fools remark doesn't exactly "Rise above the fray"

  39. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Randy, are you looking for PPFA members to write articles or would you take articles from anybody? I have written articles for local magazines that are directed at consumers, but I don't know anything about blogs and such. PM me if it's something you want to discuss.

  40. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Now we're getting somewhere it seems.

    Ed, did you realize, before this thread, that this is something the PPFA does right now?
  41. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Nope, I don't know much about the PPFA. It always seemed like a mysterious secret society to me. The people I spoke to always acted like the benefits were self evident.

    Of course the other question is if I don't know about it as someone inside the industry how would those not in the know stumble across it? That is not disparaging the efforts, it is just a question that could use some thought.
  42. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    "Well Mark, .... Your asses and fools remark ..."


    Doug, you're no fool, I guess we know what that leaves. (btw the mod alert button is down on the left there)

    Doug, you are as much a problem as to what is wrong with this message board as any of the others here. I have no problem with free speech, I wish we could say whatever we felt like saying whenever we wanted. My issue is when meaningful threads get sidetracked as they have.

    It's not about me being above the fray. My involvement doesn't make it right. My suggestion is that it gets locked as soon as it happens so that 9 pages in we don't have to see the peanut gallery weighing in. Doug, you and I are that peanut gallery.

    I get it, the PPFA sticks together. Paul is the enemy. Rob gets attacked (wrongfully in my eyes sometimes) and he gets defended by all of his minion. You Doug are of his minion. Find your own cause to defend already Doug, others have Rob's back.

    Paul has a bone to pick with Rob and he chooses to bait him constantly. Paul, your comments do not make you look good. You have potential customers reading here, act accordingly.

    Rob is above the fray, in so much as he is almost never rude, but he has many here stand up for him. When others don't stand up for him he walks away... like the Facebook Picture Framer Group. It was a loss to that group, but I don't think that inaction to condone a bigot makes the rest of the people in that group part of the problem.

    Pat Kotnour has a beef with Rob too. He can never say anything without her taking it personal. She comes across as an amateur when she does that. I've bought her products, I've tried to visit her booth at the show. She needs to improve her ability to sell at her booth to reach more then just the 4 people standing in front of her. She probably won't.

    Me, I'm not above the fray. I'm smack dab in the middle of it. The difference is I speak my mind to the people I dislike.
  43. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    We prefer to post article from members, we prefer it to be original content, we do this to help promote them. You probably can sign up as a new member for the trial price Of $95 or .26 cents a day. Part of joining the association or any organization is the networking, you meet people in your chapter, across the country and around the world. The PPFA is a a big spread out, sometimes disjointed organization, there is no one spokesperson. There are many heads wagging the tail and we are all volunteers because we love what we do. There is no map that says, do this, go here, do that. It's strength is educating framers, exposing them to the best practices, in that we influence industry standards.

    Ed I assume your on here, to learn and you have something to give back, take a look at the blog, our Facebook and other social media efforts.

    http://findapictureframer.com/ see blog




  44. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Mark, I must really have touched a nerve to set you off like that.

    Please reread this and other threads and let me know which of my other posts you find so egregious.

    Looking at your contribution to Paul's Original Post I see you have only contributed by mocking different people and called them names.

  45. Ylva

    Ylva SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I am a current PPFA member but am not actively involved. However, I do try to keep track of everything going on and I realize it's working, as I know of most of the active things going on. I pay my dues, go to meetings when I can.

    Ed has a great point, about not knowing what the PPFA is doing or can do. I also realize that it is extremely difficult for the PPFA to get that word out, beyond what they already are trying to do (remember everyone, we are talking about framers like you and me who devote a huge portion of their time to volunteer).

    I don't know why no one ever got back to you Ed, there are communication problems (as everywhere else in the world).

    Just jump in both feet, become a member. New member price is fantastically low. If it's not for you at the end of that membership, simply don't renew.

    Sign up for the Framer's Corner. Even if you are not a member, you can still access some parts of the forum and general PPFA information is posted there, or you could start a thread. Yes, you have to sign up for this forum, but can do so without being a PPFA member, you just won't have full access.

  46. Artrageous

    Artrageous PFG, Picture Framing God

    Sorry no nerve touched here. I merely made a general point, you took it personal. Please don't think these comments are what I would write if I was set off. It would take far more then anything you're capable of writing to do that.

    I have not read this entire thread. I stopped once the nonsense started up. I won't read through pages of carp. That is my point. No one should have to.
  47. D_Derbonne

    D_Derbonne PFG, Picture Framing God

    Mark, you summed it up very well.

    One thing to depend on here, if a thread has a lot of responses there is probably some drama going on and it's usually the same cast of characters playing the lead roles.
  48. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    A thread with this many views means there's traffic on this site, and that people are hanging around and reading.

    Mark, a good forum is one with light moderation. Look at views and posts compared to even a year ago and you'll see that the numbers go way down when the only posts have either become either narrow interest, pandering, or self-serving promotional spots by individuals, businesses, or organizations. That's not sustaining content for a forum.

    When advertisers don't get what they want -- eyeballs. Then, you have no advertisers. Finally, you have no forum.

    You can't brag about calling people out, but criticize me, Doug or others when they we it? No fair.
  49. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    Just because there has been some interest shown and there is a looming deadline I ask to interject:
    Point of clarification and a not so shameless plug. For those who are not currently members of PPFA there is a short window to join up at a reduced rate. The membership special is currently good only through the end of September. Check out http://www.pmai.org/ppfa/ for more info.
    One of the best ways to affect change is to work from within.
    Thank you.
  50. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    hey Mark

    been around a looong time, probably too long

    if I have learned anything it might be to follow Ellen Collins advice to take what you can and ignore the rest. Wedged between the goofy comments might be a nugget or two. Consider it 'panning for gold' LOL. Used to read the trade mags cover to cover in search of that one item that might be really helpful. Way too easy and sit back criticizing how much drivel it was or how stupid that idea was. Turned into 'not for me, but someone might do it'

    Used to take it personally when I would share a Generally Applied Biz Practice that i learned and it was met with a few 'in the weeds' critics; often the same snipers. Saving grace was perhaps 10-20 people might put some thought into the idea. Then it came full circle-worry about the 10-20 others

    Another observation is more likely true than not is the accuser is often guilty of his own accusation. I mean, how arrogant must one be to call someone else arrogant LOL

    spoken by someone that has seen the inside of some dust ups himself

    Bottom line: lots of good people here, in PPFA, at the shows. Play for them
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