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This idea ought to make a Nobel Prize Winner

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Bob Carter, May 2, 2008.

  1. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    We are now dragging partisan politics into the health care discussion. Fair enough

    Both sides need to bend a little, don't they?

    So here is pure genius that will solve a couple of problems with a flic of the Bic

    We are paying too much for gas, we don't have any great alternative fuel options and we are paying too much for health care

    All agreed?

    So, here is the plan

    We decide to tell the 4 or 5 caribous to take a hike from Anwar and drill that place with more holes than a first time dental appointment in Appalachia. Make it look like a piece of swiss cheese

    Opec is telling us to expect $200/barrel; today it's about $120. Why are we sending any money to these petro-terroists? We ought to be sending to our own brand of terroists right here with one exception

    We tell Mobil and whomever, they have three mandates. They pay "the fund" $40/barrel and The price at the pump cannot exceed $2/gal (I remember those days) of that $1/gal will be a Medical Plan tax (they are paying over $2 to buy it and have to get it here

    Now who is going to stand up for a mini-me Rudolph when Rafael and Sheniqua don't have healthcare?

    They have to devote $1Billion dollars a year to alternative energy with all Executive Bonuses tied directly to that matrix

    And, they must relocate any humans presently living 50 miles of this field (Okay, I tricked you, there are any people living in that God-forsaken edge of the earth)

    We get to tell Prince Amir Bin Framen to take a powder with Hugo Chavez and some paper dictator from Nigeria-"Thanks, but, No, Thanks".

    So, who is still dead set against drilling when we can offer Tomas free health care

    We are the smartest country in the world. We need a challenge like D-Day or sending a man to the moon in less than 6 years

    I'm sorry Donner wanna be, forget about it no-you-can't dance Dancer, you are just a casualty in the war on energy and health care. Just mosey over a few miles you will never know the better

    We have 45 million starving kids and poor people to get healthy

    Some darter snails and caribous just need to get over it
    American Picture Frame Academy 1-888-840-9605

    The American Picture Framing Academy Learn Picture Framing Now
  2. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    I read an article the other day about Brazil changing over to all E85 from gasoline.

    The real underlying reason that they did was not because they thought it was environmentally correct thing to do, it was because of Hugo Chavez. All of there oil was coming from Venezuela and now they have cut him off.

    Done deal.

    Why can't we do the same and get the heck out of the Middle East.

    We could take that money we give over there and spend it here.

    Heck, all those Billions might even pay for this health-care system everybody wants.
  3. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Stay out of ANWAR! The projected reserves up there is 6 months worth of fuel and it'll take 6 months to see the first trickle.

    Take the next 200 Billion they want to blow on the war and develop alt fuels with that! Put solar panels on every roof going across the middle of the country from East to West. Electricity will be too cheap to meter! (anyone else remember THAT promise!) With God providing us with abundant wind, sun, tides, weeds and fast growing hemp (hemp oil for bio fuels) we could stop relying on dead dinosaur era swamps to fuel our cars!

    Hey right wing friends, let the lefty hippies grow their weed! They could become oil barons and tycoons and stop being a "burden" on society! You know they have been growing it, make it legal they'll lose interest and start turning it into fuel for the rest of us. Like George Carlin's character in Cars! But maybe it would be too much for you to then have to ask the burnouts for money to fund your political earmarks. Remember that hemp was made illegal by the wood pulp companies to produce paper, that the dollar used to be printed on hemp paper....
  4. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    I think politicians from both parties have let us down by their lack of fortitude and leadership on health care reform. The most anyone does is nibble around the edges; the rest pay lip service or not even that. A pox on both their houses, and may they use my cr*appy plan to seek a cure for that pox.

    As for our oil dependence, same thing to a big extent, except it's now a national security crisis. What I'd like to see is a government challenge to the automakers, kind of like Kennedy's challenge to put a man on the moon within a decade. Challenge them to come up with a car that runs on air that handles as nimbly as any current vehicle, at prices as low as $15,000. The first automaker to come up with a commercially viable auto that meets those requirements gets a 10-year corporate income tax holiday on all such autos sold.

    I went to school with people who work in Detroit, and they are bright folks. I have a hard time believing they can't come up with something within a year or two. Heck, I bet the plans have been sitting in a vault 20 miles under Ford HQ for the past 35 years!
  5. CAframer

    CAframer SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    And here's the real kicker ... the true supply/demand driven price today is somewhere around $60. That's all!

    Everything beyond that is driven by large scale investments in oil futures. Many big investors (pension funds et al) have turned away from stocks in favor of oil futures and are artificially pushing up prices.

    Can anyone spell tulips, or dotcom, or housing? Or oil? Oh gosh, they are all spelled the same ... "G R E E D".
  6. rsee

    rsee CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Probably not a nobel idea

    Novel? well, not even that. There's not enough oil up in ANWR to make a difference. Here's an (unfortunate but accurate description of what's happening) "The energy crisis we are in today is entirely different from the temporary problems we experienced in 1973-74, 1979-86, 1990-91 and 2000..... There was always sufficient worldwide geological capacity to produce additional barrels of crude oil to meet the world's needs. No longer. In the next major energy crisis, that capacity will likely be eroded. So the crisis should have a severe impact, be global in scope, and be difficult to solve. Plainly, it will be unprecedented.... Over the next 25 years, a new world energy economy will arrive in three waves. We are near the top of the first and smallest one, a warning wave. A second more powerful wave likely will hit in the 2009-2010 period when the non-OPEC world may reach its all-time highest output of crude oil, subsequently declining to become ever more dependent on OPEC for incremental barrels of production. The final wave should break around 2020, or earlier, as even OPEC's vast reserves are tapped at a maximum rate of production. After that, oil volume should head down and keep falling, never to revive..... An international economic disturbance of this magnitude will create potential conflicts between nations and civil competition within societies. These could be a trial for us and for our children, made worse in the early years by our lack of preparation and our failure to understand what is already happening to us."
    The Gathering Storm
    Energy Bulletin, 15 November 2004

    Unfortunately, for the last 5 years, instead of people really worrying about what is important like truly supporting our troops (financially), doing what they could about ecological impact to the planet, or cutting resource use, everyone was asking "where's my tax cut?" My family, who served in WWII, talk about it frequently - how during the 40's America truly "did the right thing" and supported their troops, did what was best for the country.

    We've become a selfish society and there's no magic pill in ANWR. If we think that it's that important to drill for oil here in the US, let's start in the grounds of the White House, that would set a great example to the rest of the citizens of how important it really is. Hey, it makes as much sense as drilling up ANWR. Besides that, as oil gets more and more expensive, it will make more and more sense to drill up there. Let everyone else drive the price up, position ourselves to develop and be a leader in alternative energy, then when the Arabs are out, we profitably drill for profit, after we've already cut our consumption.

    That's my view, anyway.

    Ron C.
  7. CAframer

    CAframer SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    And this from UCEI is an excellent synopsis, illustrating the modest impact such drilling would have:​

    "In 2007, the quantity of oil produced in the U.S. was equal to slightly less than one third of the U.S. quantity consumed. This shortfall of production in the U.S. is frequently presented as the primary energy challenge the country faces, particularly by advocates of expanded exploration and drilling in the U.S. In reality, expanded production in the U.S. would have only a very modest effect on the price of petroleum products. Oil is bought and sold in a worldwide market, and prices are set based on the balance of worldwide supply and worldwide demand. This means that additional production of oil in the United States has effectively no more benefit to U.S. consumers than production in any other part of the world that has sufficient geopolitical stability to deliver reliable supply. It also means that any increment to supply must be seen in comparison to the world oil market in order to evaluate its effect on prices. Drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska, for instance, would most likely deliver about 1 million barrels per day to what would likely be about a 100 million barrel per day oil market by the time that oil came online. That 1% increase in oil supply would have a very modest effect on world oil prices. The fact that it would expand oil production in the U.S. by more than 15% is entirely irrelevant for evaluating its impact on prices to consumers."
  8. rsee

    rsee CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    from Trucks to Wind

    There's one politician here in MN who has proposed (and others have endorsed the idea) of recommissioning a closing FORD plant here so they could produce power generating windmills. We've got plenty of it here in west central minn. Puts folks back to work, cuts down on power that would have to be generated with coal or oil, and since energy can't be created or destroyed (I think I remember that from physics class somewhere), it seems to me that means less wind for me to deal with when I'm trying to enjoy an afternoon fishing on the lake :shrug:

    I know they've got a lot of these windmills outside of Chicago, and it doesn't seem to me that it's as big of an aesthetic concern as everyone used to say. Besides, I think when gas hits $5.00/gallon here, the tolerance of aesthetic disturbances will probably wane quickly.

    Ron C.
  9. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Yes, as Andrew / ACFramer mentioned, oil price is driven not only through supply and demand, but also through the weak US dollar (gee, is that a surprise??) and a lot by speculators and commodity trading on Wall Street.

    If somebody sneezes in Nigeria (they have oil, btw) for example, the speculators drive price (Oil Futures in the trading lingo) up by a few $$. Some hedge funds are getting very fat over this, till the oil bubble bursts and the guvment runs to bail them out, as usual.

    And BTW, our esteemed politicians have not renewed the subsidies for alternative energy but they did for the oil companies.
  10. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I am not as bright as several of the posters here, but I cannot understand why these behemoth oil companies are so eager to spend years and years on construction and countless gajillions for 6 mons of oil? I guess these guys are pretty stupid, eh?

    I was watching Cavuto this am and they bounced this thing around, too

    Several key items caught my attention

    Continental shelf drilling (off Fla keys) has been banned for US exploration by Congress, but the Cubans are doing it. Question? Whom do you think might be more "environmentally sensitive" in that match up

    We are the only major industrial country not exploring new drill sites aggressively

    Canada has built more refineries since our last one

    Expected construction time in ANWR approx 4 years; with expected environmentalist challenges and court delays, 10 yrs

    How come the environmentalists (since this is a world issue) don't complain about the goings on in Nigeria or Venezuela or Russia

    My concern for energy independence is more than the price per gallon. As it is presently, we are getting benefit of neither

    I wish we could discuss this a little more non-emotionally than to suggest we drop a rig at 1600 Pennsylvania

    If we controlled our own energy, we just might be able to find ways to fund the other programs we feel necessary

    Aren't you glad that when your own house was built that the same environmental issues were not in place.
  11. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Amen Brother!

    Bob Carter for President!
  12. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    here's a snippet from todays FactCheck.org email.

    What's wrong with researching windfarms, solar ands tidal energy? If it takes 4 years to get results and the results only yield 5-10% of our needs, then it'll match ANWR. And the long term prospects of renewable beats the short term benefits of digging dead dinos out of pristine lands.
  13. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Absolutely nothing.

    However none of those things will push my pickup truck or Cadillac down the road.
  14. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey Bob-Hold your hat, but we sorta might be in agreement

    I'm not against windmill farms or solar panels or hydogen or any of them. The more we can develop the better, including our own oil reserves. The key is independence

    The land your house sets was once "pristine", too.

    We simply cannot allow this fear to paralyze us from action. A few termites and scorpions are just going to be disturbed. I truly feel ANWR has become one of thos lines in the sand to environmentalists. If we used thatstandard, nothing could be built anywhere ever again.

    Do you think the Arabs or the Nigerians or the Venezuelans will be better for the enivironment?
  15. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    "Do you hear that sound, Mr. Anderson?? That's the sound of inevitability....."
    In this case, the sound of the last oil well running dry.

    We are just prolonging the inevitable. Oil WILL run out. Sun, wind and another energy sources will not. GM never thought oil will be expensive, now they can't give their gas guzzlers away!

    But our generation seems to always shift the burden (beside the Trillions of borrowed money) to our kids and let those suckers solve the problems.
  16. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    We don't need oil Paul.

    Ethanol is the the way to go.

    We can use that while we develop something else like Hydrogen power.
  17. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob I think we are in agreement on many issues. I too agree that we need to do more to become energy efficient. But I think that oil is finite and will end. It is also releasing carbon that has been buried for eons. Which will open a can of works that we can't continue to ignore.

    Jerry, electricity will push your car, truck or caddy. As will H2. Our engines are currently less than 30% efficient, can we improve on that? Don't have to go to lighter cars, smaller engines, just improve the efficiency of what we use.

    Bob I did build on pristine land. Cut the trees down and dug and built. Put up a loghouse, which uses more resources than a conventional stick built house. I mean each foot of wall height is an actual tree slain for my benefit. And no insulation in the walls, as they are trees, non voids to fill with insulation.
    The foundation had to be 10" instead of the standard 8" so I used 25% concrete than everyone else. All because it cost less. I didn't put in solar and go off grid, as I wanted because the electric company, once they learned we were thinking off-grid, dropped the per foot line fees. That was 12 years ago. If we had gone off-grid our solar system would finally be paid for, and I would be looking at replacing components of it.
  18. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Actually, no it want. All three of my vehicles was designed and built to run on gasoline. I can and do put some E85 in them when I'm in an area that I can buy it. Nobody in my town has the gumption to sell it.

    I would have to purchase some other vehicle to use any of the things that you mention. And then someone else would have my gasoline/ethanol burning vehicles.

    If I had an extra $110,000 laying around I would really like to own a Tesla. Really cool cars, 0 to 60 in 4 sec and goes 200 miles on a charge. But wouldn't the power company have to produce more power to charge my car? In my area, we have both a coal fired power plant and a Nuclear power plant.

    And I haven't seen an electric pickup truck yet.

    How many cars and lite duty trucks do we have on the roads in the US? How long will it take to transfer all of these over to some other fuel source? And how long will it take to get a supply distribution chain in place?

    If we switched over to Ethanol, it could go pretty quick. Brazil did it, why can't we. They even sell their surplus on the open market as does Cuba. The wholesale price is way lower than gasoline.

    And before anyone starts whining about the price of corn, Brazil and Cuba uses sugarcane, not corn.
  19. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    As Bob has suggested, the simple answers are that we all can and should do more than we presently do

    Let's just say that we mandate no more oil tomorow

    How many of us could make that change. Heck, how many will scream bloody murder when HD TV makes a conversion?

    We need transistions, not rheotoric.

    I was a young lad when JFK vowed to put a man on the moon in that decade

    Can this be tougher?

    I just don't remember all the partisan and eco issues that we could not find compromise

    Supposse any one solution yields "only" 10% independence? Is that like saying we want to eliminate cancer, bit only 100%; 10% isn't good enough?

    And, Bob, I know we agree upon much more than not, too. I remember somewhere that you had a "homestead" type home. I am sure to some, you may not be as "enivironmentally" sensitive as they would wish; that they would wish you left that land in pristine condition. While, I and others, I'm sure, probably you think you did an admirable job

    It's that difference of perspective that probably is holding up a solution
  20. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    You can't win for losing, when it comes to energy. We have one of those windmill farms on the edge of the Bay Area, at the Altamont Pass. It's quite an impressive sight. Nevertheless, there are some environmentalists opposed to these windmill farms because birds fly into them and get, ahem, shredded.

    And then there are biofuels, made from various vegetable products. There are some activists opposed to these, too, because it diverts food resources away from feeding hungry people.
  21. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Have a good weekend folks. Bob this is a good idea for a thread, I think the turnout is low because of the title. But I think gas the caribou would have brought out more angry discourse than thoughtful discourse! Interesting test though would be to cut and paste your first post into a new one and see which draws more attention!
  22. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Maybe, Bob

    I thought thecaribou was a great metaphor on how easily we take our eye off the real goal, that of oil independence.

    When we bring up the emotional connection, we lose sight

    I am certain that an extremist would react that you displaced some bluejays nesting spot when you built your home

    My position was that Mr Bluejay probably simply flew to another tree not far away. I suspect the caribou will, too
  23. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hydrogen is nonsense - with present technology it takes far more energy to produce than it yields.

    Ethanol is nonsense, too - while originally a good idea as an additive to deal with emissions, as a fuel it is a disaster. It takes huge amounts of energy to produce. It can't be transported in pipelines, thereby, wasting more energy hauling it around. And, worst of all, it takes vast amounts of farmland out of food production. (Don't talk to me about Brazil without explaining why it's a good idea to cut down rain forests to produce sugar cane.)

    Electric cars - what a joke. Just exactly how are we going to generate enough electricity to power all of the cars in this country? When the grid is barely growing enough to keep up with present demand? And, when the same folks who believe in the clean energy "fairy" won't permit the construction of a single Nuclear power plant?

    No one has yet to develop a more perfect power plant for an automobile than the gasoline powered internal combustion engine. But, maybe, coming soon, is a new diesel technology from Europe.
  24. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    I bet someone has, Pat, but the blueprints are under lock and key in a vault deep under Exxon headquarters.
  25. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    There's a good reason for that. Canada actually has the second largest oil reserves in the world, right behind Saudi Arabia. Currently, we import more oil from Canada than any other country. The Canadians have only tapped a fraction of their potential oil reserves because much of that oil is tied up in oil sands in western Canada, which up till recently were considered to costly to develop. That is changing with the increasing demand for oil and new technologies to refine the oil out of the sand.

    There have been calls in the last few days to stop using ethanol because the price of food world wide is going up. This morning I was reading that one of the biggest things increasing the cost of food is the cost of fuel and petroleum derived fertilizers to grow it. That combined with increased commodities trading in basic foods like wheat and rice sounds more likely than ethanol production since the wheat and rice are most effected and corn is used most for ethanol.

    There are several projects to develop ethanol from alternate sources, one uses switch grass which can be grown on marginal land. Another they are working on here in Wisconsin uses the waste from paper mills and saw mills. And then there are the kits you can get to run your diesel on used fryer oil. I like the idea of turning waste into energy. It takes care of 2 problems at once.
  26. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. While a bluejay would move and adapt, caribou live in herds that follow the same migration routes they have used for millions of years. If you disrupt that, the herds (which are vast), die.

    And caribou aren't the only things living there. The tundra ecosystem is complex but fragile. It's already showing signs of stress from climate change. It takes a long time for damage in that region to heal, longer than in other parts of the world.
  27. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Oh Oh-Both Bob and Anne are sorta agreeing with me?

    I would love to see more refining capacity in this country. You want to see those huge oil profits go down? Let's let them build 4 or 5 more modern refineries

    I just think if we "pay" ourselves first and use a lot of that money that is now going to people that don't much like us into R&D for all the things that are simply not effective...

    If we develop a NASA scale commitment....

    So, how did those caribous get way up there? Or anywhere else? They didn't do a little wandering?
  28. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The caribous have always been there. They migrate yearly from their summer range to their winter range, but those ranges have remained the same for thousands of years. They moved there after the last ice age when the glaciers covering that area melted and have been there since.
  29. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Another part of the problem with the cost of gas is that China and India are consuming more and more, as they industrialize. That's been one of the major factors in the increase in oil costs.
  30. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So, the caribou do move and adapt. They'll be fine again, I'm sure. I think there were some arguments like that when the Alaska pipline was first built. How did those arguments hold up after all these years

    Paul-India and China are great reasons for energy independence.
  31. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Indeed, Bob. But when it comes to China, our politicians are even more feckless than with Saudi Arabia.
  32. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    OK Pat

    We can keep getting our supply of oil from the Middle East until we are broke or they kill us.

    Glory be to Alaha.
  33. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    All this reminds me of things going on in the northwest. Not many salmon left, most of the old growth forest is gone. The fishermen and loggers will fight over the very last fish and tree.
  34. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    They move but they don't adapt. They can't move to a new area or find a new route that easy. They have been using these same areas thousands of years, there aren't other areas because other caribou are using them. Each herd has it's own range, disrupt that and that herd dies out. They spend their summers in one area of it, their winters in another but they stay in the same range their whole lives, going back and forth between the same areas. Kind of like snowbirds who spend their summers in Wisconsin and their winters in Arizona. You don't want to disrupt their migration patterns either.
  35. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    But, they found a new way when they were displaced by climate changes that didn't wipe 'em out.

    Any update on the caribou after the Alaskan pipeline? They didn't die out, too, did they?
  36. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Humans aren't the only species, we just act like it.
  37. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I'll have to ask my cousin in Alaska what the impact was. Her husband worked for the fish and wildlife department there till he retired. However one pipeline is less of a disruption than a whole oil field.

    Doug, I was voted most likely to save an endangered species in high school. :p I actually have a degree in natural resource management with a minor in biology. Gave it up when I had a kid, but I'm still try to follow what is going on in the environment.
  38. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    As everyone should AnneL, as everyone should. You obviously keep up more than many of us!

    I nominate you as the resident Grumble environmental expert. We know that BobC is the resident Grumble business expert. Too bad business and the environment don't always see things eye to eye.
  39. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I'm a news junkie. I need my fix or I start to feel out of sorts. :icon9:
  40. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Those businesses that know how to adapt and be environmentally responsible will do well.

    Others, look at GM for a good example - the last few days sales are down substantially, laying off 3500 employees because people are buying less of their gas guzzlers) will not.

    Being able to adapt is smart. Applies to framing business too.
  41. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    I've learned more about Canadian oil extraction and the mating habits of carabu in this one thread than all of my previous 30 years. I think Anne has forgotten more than the average person will ever know.

    I think that animals have been attracted to the Alaskan pipeline because of the heat it produces. I haven't confirmed this on Wikipedia yet so it could be urban legend. I suspect it may well be true or Anne would have shot it down. Maybe thats why its being ignored. Maybe she will also ignore the flourishing carabu population just a few miles west of Anwar. Its big and old and dirty and the stupid cows are growing in numbers there. Maybe this particular herd are ultra-sensitive?

    I have worked at 3 oil refineries in Illinois. Connico Phillips in Alton was in bad shape. I'm told that dump was in “good” shape compared to most in the country. I don't think we have the compatibly to refine enough oil even if we were handed a life time supply. The refinery across the street from Connico was just dangerous!

    Like you said Bob, this is just slight of hand. There is a real problem and we know who (not what) they are. These lunatics have plenty more reasons to stop forward movement. They won't even let us explore Anwar in the dead of winter driving on frozen water complaining about pregnant polar bears.

    It also doesn't matter how much is up there. If a company couldn't collect the oil and make money, they wouldn't go there. So we really need not worry about how much is there. Private business will take care of that.

    Why don't we hear more about coal to gas plants? Its clean. It's more efficient than ethanol. There isn't a coal shortage. I can assure you the deer or fish population isn't harmed in Kentucky from vast coal fields.

    What about the reserves in the gulf of Mexico? That would possibly increase our untapped reserves by as much as 50%. Is there a rare ocean bacteria that need protecting? What do want to bet that the tree huggers are researching reasons to not drill faster than Exxon is looking for the oil?

    Why do we allow people to divert our attention to silliness like windmills and corn for energy and ignore/disregard proven and reliable energy right under our noses? If they want to chase a dream, I'm happy for them. Just don't handicap the rest of us who don't share your fears.

    What I have come to believe is that those that are anti-energy are causing most of the problems. They will be our demise if we keep giving in to them. I only hope my kids have the gumption that I don't to fight against their ideas. If they don't their future is in jeopardy. This group is the wolf in sheep's clothing – they're dangerous.

    Perhaps in keeping with this socialism that is so popular these days why don't the government just buy our gas? There that will solve all the problems.
  42. gemini

    gemini CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Keep your head in the sand, everything will be alright.
  43. rsee

    rsee CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Not emotional (really)

    Actually, the "environmentalists" (incidentally we all should be "e"'s because our children will have to try to live on whats left of this), have been going after China (which has been buying record amounts of crude, doesn't have environmentally sound industrial practices, etc.), and I know of that personally. I believe the idea of the largest countries, who would have the greatest impact, to change and set the standard, is a good one. It would be nice if UK, China, US, Russia could do that. Our country was built on the industrial revolution, when we didn't have all the standards we have now. Of course we didn't know then what we know now. Amazing what a few lakes catching fire will do.

    As to the 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. comment, it meant as comic relief and to punctuate my belief that many of us like the idea of things that will benefit us, if it's not in our backyard. How many times have you seen towns turn back developments, etc., yet if the folks there before these protestors built their houses had done the same - well, you get that, because you eluded to it in your comment about houses.

    Here's an interesting link, and I could provide you with many others, describing about how disappointing the drilling up there has been. BP had pulled out a few years back, because of the EXTREME low production, versus investment. http://anwrnews.blogspot.com/2005/06/bp-may-restart-badami-wells-near-anwr.html

    If we really want to learn the truth about these issues, one must search way beyond Cavuto and the other cheerleaders at FOX. Watching the BBC news, they're a little more "fair and balanced", even getting AP items off line can provide better info than the parroted bullet points they keep regurgitating on FOX.

    In my view, the short term solution now is not too dissimilar from what it was in the 70's - CONSERVE. Take a look at this chart on CAFE standards http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5448289 Imagine if we had continued with the progress we made in those few years from 1974-1980. Unfortunately, in the 90's, under Clinton and the "environmentalist" Gore, they exempted SUV's from the standards, the cars kept getting bigger and bigger - and here we are. This isn't about the "environmentalists", it's about all of us, realizing the problem has been caused by us all, and the solution lies with us all.

    That's my take - and I'll even admit I have a battery and gas lawn mower, and I don't use the electric as often as I should (but at least I try).

    for better or worse, we are all one - - - Ron C.
  44. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Interesting how you could learn about the mating habits of caribou on this thread since they weren't even mentioned. Your probably right about me forgetting quite a bit since it has been almost 30 years since I learned it.

    I haven't responded to it because it hasn't been mention on here before and I have been busy doing other things. I don't think about this stuff 24/7. As I said before, a pipeline is different than an oil field.

    Isn't Anwar a province in Iraq? Last time I checked there weren't any caribou or polar bears there, just insurgents. The response you would get from disturbing a pregnant polar bear wouldn't be much different than that of an insurgent so I guess they are similar.

    What incentive do the oil companies have for increasing their supply? If they increased their supply, that would lower the price of oil, and their profits would go down. I think that is a bigger reason why they aren't drilling in these places, or building new refineries, than any environmental concerns. That's just their "official" excuse. They have so much influence in Washington, that if they wanted to do these things they could.

    Windmills and corn for energy are reliable and proven forms of energy that have been in use longer than oil has. Henry Ford originally designed his cars to run on ethanol. He wanted to provide American farmers with a new market for their grain. The oil barons of the time managed to convince his rivals to use gas, so he had to change to compete.

    We bother with alternate technologies because the supply of oil is finite. No new oil is being made and one day it will run out. The only big question is when since the amount in the ground is hard to estimate. We aren't antienergy, we just realize it doesn't make sense to rely on one limited source for all our energy. If we don't explore alternatives, then your kids futures really will be in jeopardy when we run out of oil.
  45. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    For Bob C.

    I saw this piece in the Sunday editoral section of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and thought you might be interested in it. The author is a republican representative from Janesville. I don't neccessarily agree with everything he says, but some things I do, like exploring alternate sources for ethanol other than food crops.

  46. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    It is funny that so many whine about corn to ethanol production.

    In the state of South Carolina, there are 16 plants setup to produce ethanol. Only one of those uses corn. The reason given was that there is nothing else readily available in the immediate area to use.

    And every year we pay farmers to NOT grow crops.

    Funny old world ain't it?
  47. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I agree with most of that statement. Pumping more oil is only a short term solution, not the solution for the long term.

    Conservation will do more to help our economy, than just pumping and using more oil.

    I believe the long term solution is to give tax incentives to individuals and businesses to conserve fuel, install solar panels, build windmills, and drive more fuel efficient cars.

    China is building a city with as many skyscrapers as Chicago, every year. Also, India is using a huge amount of energy.
    We must find a better way to fuel our growth.

    There have been several comments about not worrying about the environment, which I think is very short sighted.
    There is a great book out by Jared Diamond called "Collapse", that talks about how almost all past great civilizations collapsed into ruin because of pollution, cutting down all the trees, and not taking care of their local environment.

    Disclaimer: I own Exxon stock, I drive a Tahoe, and I own a boat with twin outboard motors that gussle gas, so I'm part of the problem. :D
  48. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey Surf-We are all part of the problem; too many of just keep looking for villains to justify a political position. Theyare just too inflexible

    We are going to have to break a few eggs to make an omelete

    We need to drill more because we all rely upon our gas driven cars. But, that doesn't mean that we cannot explore more fields while at the same time we explore for altrenatives. Too many extremeists are simply not realists. We cannot turn off one spigot today and another switch tomorrow

    It's just like soo many "activists" that all drive cars (many single occupant) to rallys telling the rest of how wastefule we are

    I do not know a single person that doesn't want clean air and water.

    We simply need to quit spending so much time and energy of fighting each other and find some compromise

    We really all do need to set a "moon in this decade" mentality if we expect resolution
  49. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Keeping in mind that I'm not a micro zoologists or anything but I'll continue.

    I saw a show about an OIL FIELD about 50 miles west of ANWR called something Bay. Either you didn't know about this or you know about it and would rather poke fun at my misspelling than address the topic. This OIL FIELD is more than double the size projected for ANWR because of drilling advancements. Its huge and old and doesn't seem to upset the carabu population one bit. If I remember correctly they have grown something like 10 times in the last 20 years from 3k to 30k. This isn't across the state, its less than an hours drive. I suspect we don't hear about it much becuase the animal population isn't harmed and its not on protected land.
  50. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    That's what I suggested way back at the beginning. Challenge the automakers to come up with a car that runs on air, and give the first one to develop a commercially viable air-car a 10-year tax holiday on air-car sales. Betcha one of the big automakers rolls one out within a year.
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