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This idea ought to make a Nobel Prize Winner

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Bob Carter, May 2, 2008.

  1. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Sounds like a good idea Paul, however, no matter how hard we try, we just can't overcome the laws of physics.

    Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only converted. We can convert liquid energy into heat energy, and we can create mechanical energy from heat energy, but we can't get something from nothing.
     
  2. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    OK so the best that has come up is let's keep burning oil? That and "ethanol?, stupid, burn oil". Oh and conspiracy theories about Exxon buying up the developing technology and hiding it in vaults. Meanwhile the biggest maker of solar panels is BP.

    Why dump millions, billions into making a dying source last longer? They didn't try to find a way to make a biplane fly higher and higher to get out of orbit, they branched out and tried something new. The beginning attempts were not the best but they got better. And still need to improve to meet needs that continue to arise.

    So let's look into new technologies. Solar good, with use could be made better. I read of a solar technology that would use the heat generated on the panels to vibrate and somehow create electricity with sound waves. Seems like if they could use the sun to do this then they could use any heat to do this. Thus why not use the radiator of the car to create electricity? Or the waste steam in cooling towers? Does anyone remember the speculation that was abuzz just before Dean Kamen came out with the Segway? Everyone thought he had perfected the Sterling Engine. Why was the research on that dropped after the Segway came out? If this new solar technology comes to fruition it could be the Sterling Motor on steroids!

    Ed Begley's book (haven't read it yet) mentions that if the ancient egyptians had created a poison that could kill you today if you stumbled upon that that would be a really bad thing! Yet Nuclear waste makes that scenario look like a short term "issue". There are semiotic experts trying to come up with a symbol set to warn future generations, and maybe if man ends and gets replaced by a new species, literate or illiterate that there is a bad thing buried in the area and to stay away!

    Before we dump more money into Nuclear shouldn't we find a way to deal with the waste? I know earlier I said use burgeoning technology and deal with the shortcomings as we learn more, but Nuclear was sold to us as being clean, and that while we didn't know how to deal with the waste we would know before the first station was to be decommissioned. That has come and gone, and so has Nuclear's day.Just like cotton filaments got replaced by tungsten so should Nuclear, (man made solar) be replaced by the real thing.
     
  3. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Paul there is an "Air Car". The production rights have been sold to Tata Motors in India. The cars are to be made of a glue composite and as such will not be for sale in the US.

    The air it runs on is compressed air. High pressure compressed air. Looked like a cool technology, but the compressors had to be powered. The original web site had some really cool prototype vehicles on it, I really liked their Pickup and would have paid the $10,000 asking price for it.

    BTW Tata is the company that Ford sold Jag to. They are also trying to make a $1000 car for Indians to buy. I would like to see India and China buying building and driving electric, air and alt fuel cars as they will be buying millions of them! Why should we be limiting our discussion to energy independence and not broadening it to energy supplier? If we can make a "clean" engine that runs on an American made fuel, that we could sell to the world..... Like ethanol cars to Brazil... why shouldn't we strive for that. Instead of "blaming" migratory animals for our "plight"?
     
  4. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Slap me silly and call me Sally, but how do the French handle their nuclear waste. I uderstand that 80% of al electricity is nuclear powered
     
  5. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    You've heard of the Smart Car, which is just now available in the US? Well, I'm gonna call my air-powered car the F*rt Car.
     
  6. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    Well PaulSF, you may just have hit on an inexhaustable source for energy....flatulence. If we could only capture and direct the methane produced by the cows living on this planet we would 1). have a fairly good source of fuel to drive genrators and such 2) Reduce the carbon footprint (hoofprint?) of the bovine population, and 3) make the air smell better.
    I wonder how much gas Caribou produce?
     
  7. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    OK according to this google page they do everything from shipping it to Russia, to hiding it in the US. The "recycling" may be like ours, namely DU bullets that our soldiers are using. The "repository" in France that Cheney touted still doesn't exist.

    So how does France deal with their waste, Egyptian river treatment method. De Nile. Same as ours :)
     
  8. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Electric cars - we keep going back to that "magic" - just plug 'em in and away we go. Has anyone bothered to figure how we are going to generate the KWs necessary to push all those cars around? We can't use hydro-electric because of the fishies (and the earthquakes in California). We can't build enough windmills because Teddy doesn't want to spoil his yachting paradise. We can't build Nuclear plants because Jane Fonda says it's too dangerous. We can't burn oil or natural gas because: isn't that the problem? We don't know what environmental damage might happen if we harness the Bay of Fundy - but that will only take care of Nova Scotia. We could build a bunch of those mirror farms but it turns out that they are not holding up very well - maybe someday. I guess that leaves coal - great solution. And all this is not to mention the huge in vestment in grid construction.

    I agree that some day some alternatives will work and take the place of oil, but for this crisis it is time that we start producing more of our own oil - it is there in vast quantities.
     
  9. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Paul, Wally, in a Homesteader book they mention building a home methane collection system. It says that something like 15 cows and 4 people can be used to produce enough methane for home lighting, cooking, and refrigeration. I'm assuming they are using a modified propane powered fridge! Cooking with the gas produced from your own food, talk about a closed loop system!

    The system is basically a 2 part septic tank. the first being "fed" and emptied through below water level pipes, If interested I can find the book for you!
     
  10. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Pat, even if we converted cars to burn bio diesel, we will still need petroleum to make the oil to cool and lube the engines. There have been attempts at making oil from the glycerin left over from biodiesel production, but still no cigar.

    If we want "gas" for our cars, then why not try to find a source for the gas, besides petroleum? A big issue with the CO2 from burning coal and oil is that it comes from "naturally sequestered" carbon. If we could burn the living carbon then we aren't adding any to the carbon loop. That'll help with Global Warming and maybe buy us time to come up with ways to extend our "oil addiction" to use their words. Surely if petroleum comes from swamp matter that has been compressed and liquefied we must be able to find a way to replicate that. then replicate then in a profitable way.

    We make synthetic oil for motors why not syn fuels? (George Carlin in Cars! It's Organic man!)

    Long term thinking for a short term issue? Maybe, but if the ideas that came out in the 70's, during that short term crisis, had been followed through to fruition then maybe this short term crisis could have been averted. AMC had plans for a stirling motor powered car, but AMC? Why not Ford, Chrysler, GM?
     
  11. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    When I read that I pictured a slightly differently-configured version of a CPAP sleep mask connected to a vacuum pump and storage tank.
    :eek:Rick;)
     
  12. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    You don't need 15 cows and 4 people. All you need is my brother.

    With the F*rt Car, all you have to do to refuel is pull up to the drive-through window at Taco Bell.
     
  13. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That's good, because a micro zoologist studies microscopic animals. Last time I checked, caribou are pretty big. As far as the rest of your reply goes, it is really irrelevant to this discussion, which is about new sources of energy, not existing ones. And except for your replys, it has so far been a very civil discussion even when we disagree.

    I wonder how much methane a dairy farm or a city sewage plant or land fill could produce? Some farms and paper mills in this state are experimenting with methane production and have been able to use it to generate enough electricity so they are selling back to the grid.

    In Bangladesh, they have a program where families can get microloans to have a solar panel installed that is enough to run a few lights and a hot plate, maybe a tv too. It has made a huge difference in their standard of living. The same microloan program helps families with livestock install methane generators. Often, they produce enough gas to sell some to their neighbors too. It's a much more reliable source of fuel for cooking than wood or other fuels they might use and better for the enviroment. The best part is since they get these with microloans, there are no government funds involved. They pay the loans back and the money goes to help other families the same way. It's a good example of basic technology being used to solve their energy problems.
     
  14. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    C'mon, Anne, it has been pretty civil, but Jay's replie weren't much different than your micro comment or your Anwar comment.

    I'm pretty sure we all knew what was meant, don't you?
     
  15. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yeah Bob, I knew what he meant, but you have to admit his original post wasn't very civil. And I know I'm being naughty making those comments but I can't help it. He gives me such good material to work with. I've actually refrained from making others that would have been worse.

    I promise to be good if Jay will. :p

    By the way, did you read that editorial I put the link to?
     
  16. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Anne, I always wondered if the sewer plants collected the methane and powered the plant with it how much power could they produce? We have a small utility in this town that does produce some hydro, but if they could tap into the towns people's by-product would they have to pay us to provide their fuels?

    Also makes me think of Thunderdome! But I think the methane production would work.

    The "clean coal" gasification plans make me think of the RoundHouses in small cities, like Northampton Ma that dumped water on coal, collected it and used it to light the streets. So in order to improve our coal we have to go back to 1890's technologies? Can't we do better?

    Sure methane collection could be equated to old technology, but it is also reuse, reduce recycle. The methane is there, being thrown out, degrading the ozone layer. Whether we use it to produce electricity or let it escape it'll still be there, why not use it?
     
  17. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well I guess it was relevant when you were educating all of us about the sensitivities of these sickly looking animal. When pushed with a really basic question it's all irrelevant. I figured that because these sickly looking moose were your area of expertise you would be thrilled to elaborate. Anyway I agree with you because they were always irrelevant to me. .

    Bob D, who is suggesting we not look for other sources of fuel? Right now there is no solution and there is plenty of oil out there. Anne will probably tell you to the tablespoon how much oil is in Canada right now. I think the scientific measurement is a "buttload". From Mexico to Canada this continent is quite oil and coal rich. Why exactly is there so many barriers to getting it? If our government were to tear down these barriers we probably wouldn't have anything at all to worry about for a few decades. That's alot of time to really hone some of these other ideas.

    Bob C...thanks for the civil comment. I'm not accused of that very often.
     
  18. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Jay, why does it bother you so much when I post information about things relevant to this discussion on here? I don't see you attacking others who do the same thing the way you attack me. I never claimed to know it all. I just don't believe in hiding my knowledge or playing dumb.

    For the record, I don't know how much oil is in Canada. Even the geologists are still figuring it out. It is a fact, however, that there is more oil there than in almost every other place in the world except Saudi Arabia.

    And caribou and moose are 2 different species. I never said caribou were sickly, just that they are creatures of habit and don't adapt well to changes in their migration routes. If, however, they can find away to drill for oil there with out causing too much disruption to the animals that live there or the environment and the amount would be worth it, I'd like to hear more about it.

    You might want to check out the link I posted for Bob C to this weekend's editorial page. It appears there may be new methods that would be more environmentally sensitive. That editorial, by the way, is by a conservative republican from our state that I don't usually agree with. Sometimes, though, he has proposals that I do. I'm willing to listen and analyse information from all sides.
     
  19. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Anne, I think Gemini responded best to Jay's comments.

     
  20. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Ya see folks, this is the very reason nothing ever changes.

    We are a sampling of the population. The rest of the people out there are just like us.

    We will never agree on anything.

    Status Quo

    At least we keep hashing it out. When we stop debating is when the real problems begin. Apathy
     
  21. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    NUKE THE GAY BABY WHALES!
     
  22. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob Doyle,

    I'm not advocating additional coal burning power plants to power electric cars - I'm suggesting that they would be a short term consequence of a rapid conversion from gasoline.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of bio fuels but there are unintended consequences to rushing into conversion. The biomass that the Earth will support is as finite in its own way as the supply of fossil fuel. We should be wary of proceeding down a path that will seriously impact food supply in the future, if not now. The biomass (flora) is the primary consumer of CO2 in the atmosphere. In fact the Carbon content in fossil fuels was at one time in the atmosphere. Those fuels are a consequence of an abundance of CO2 over the eons. We should be very wary of zigging when we see a problem with zagging. Neither course may be a good idea.

    You have probably guessed that I am a skeptic of significant global warming being a serious consequence of human activity. I believe that the natural forces that have caused climatic cycles are far more important. In fact, I believe that we may wish that we had the power to create some warming in the not to distant future.

    This all leads me to my view that we should be pursuing the many variations of nuclear energy as safely and rapidly as is technologically possible. I believe that there is no other alternative to the long term survival of the human race. Solar energy from the Sun's Thermonuclear engine is of course one of the variations.
     
  23. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    I can assure it won't happen again. I've taken out insurance to be sure. Carry on.

    That's funny Bob. Now it's interesting how often it gets to that level. I have thick skin and can handle it. You are free to just come right out and say what's on your mind there's no need to be coy. I do.
     
  24. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Aren't there some forms of nuclear energy that don't produce harmful radioactive waste? I'm thinking it's the same kind that takes place in the stars like our sun (fusion?) I know it's something they have been trying to get to work since the early days of the atomic program and they are getting closer all the time.
     
  25. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God


    Nope

    There comes a point when the 'nuclear fuel' no longer produces enough heat to be useful, but it is still radioactive and dangerous.

    The only thing it is good for is to make a 'dirty bomb'.
     
  26. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    Not so much being coy as showing Anne that she wasn't the only one feeling frustrated by your comment.

    I will say that I didn't read your whole comment until I went back to repeat Gemini's comment. But having read your post it is hard to be civil in return. When I went to "think tanks" the idea was to throw all kinds of ideas out there and then dig into them and then, maybe, discount them as unworkable. You just bypassed the whole process and dismissed all ideas that contradicted yours.

    So I threw in some flip "solutions". Maybe someone will read one and say, "stupid idea, but if you did this, it could work". Levity can help discourse, arrogance doesn't.

    Please look back, your comments are not "inviting", they are pretty much telling Anne to STFU because she is saying no to drilling in ANWR. But really, there should be no drilling in ANWR. The solution should come from another source. Drilling would be a bandaid, the crisis would be there after the drilling is done.
     
  27. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    This was a kind I remember hearing about that was experimental and they hadn't yet produced a working reactor that created more energy than it used. If I remember correctly, it fused basic atoms together to make other elements but I'm not sure if there was radioactivity involved. I'll have to do some more research. I'm off to plant strawberries now.
     
  28. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I think Jerry has it right

    We want to parse words when thoughts are clear

    I don't think Jay has his head in the sand anymore than some have their head in, well, let's keep in civil

    It's no more wrong to disagree with the pending environmntal apacolypse than it is to buy it en toto. Truth is, we all need to do more to do less harm. We all share that blame just as we all share the responsibilty to do what we can

    I am a tree hugger that also sees 2x4's and pencils and picture frames from that same tree. I love animals and can't wait for that next prime cut. We all have our compromises

    I think the sun has more to do with climate change than if we lined up all the SUV's to the sun and back

    Who would have ever thought I was a moderate on this?

    Anne-I did read it-Thanks. I am about ready to look at any idea that provides for a transition. One thing for certain-these are not all or nothing proposals
     
  29. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Thats right Bob and until that transition we need oil. Oil broke $120 a barrel today and what do you want to bet its not done setting records.

    What scares me the most is that world demand is increasing at a breakneck pace. There isn't a real shortage now but we are setting ourselves up for a real mess. The mess isn't going to be running out of oil. The disaster is going to be the middle east cutting us off.

    I don't know what the catalyst will be that will create panic. Maybe Saudi Arabia will go to war with us. The dollar could fall to nothing. Oil could trade at $400 a barrel...I don't know. But when that happens we are going to be 2 or 3 years from getting our own oil. Even then we won't be able to refine it. Add to that the only real solutions we are seeing are a distraction. I'd love to power my car from flatulence but isn't some immediate security a bit more important?

    Talk about fuels that don't really exist is only making the problem worse. The problem is on our doorstep. I don't think we can sustain $150 oil for very long. I have recently really altered our buying and we ain't seen the worse yet.
     
  30. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    I took this from the E85 website.


    • E85 has an octane of approximately 105.
    • E85 reduces the incidence of greenhouse emissions.
    • Ethanol-enriched fuel burns cleaner, helping to remove gummy deposits in the fuel system, so engines can run with optimal performance.
    • E85 is domestically produced and promotes energy independence.
    • E85 production helps farmers and rural communities.
    • E85 is easy to use and handle.
    • Ethanol is biodegradable and does not contaminate the groundwater. Ethanol-enriched fuel reduces greenhouse gas emissions by 35 - 46%, which is comparable to removing 100 million cars from the nation's roads each year.
    Some of us like it, some don't. It works, it's here, and the people using it is growing everyday.

    It is a perfect transition from where we are now, to where we will be in the future technology wise.

    The best part is, OPEC has no control over it.
     
  31. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    And, remember, guys, no matter how "socially conscious" we might be, there are about 2 Billion Chinese slurpping up gas and about a billion Indians. Who knows how many Nigerians and who knows whom else? I'm guessing thes places don't have Sierra Clubs, either

    Just because we get our ducks in a row doesn't make this thing go away

    Please don't tell me how we use so much more percentage/per capita we are than the rest. 2 Billion is 2 Billion and they are going through gas like Mickey Rooney through wives
     
  32. rsee

    rsee CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    HOPE

    There is hope, and it comes in (what I believe to be) a non-partisan package. There's a project that has been going for several years now-it's gaining some momentum, particularly as fuel becomes more expensive. It's called the Apollo Project. Designed to emulate the technology and American can-do innovation that propelled us to the moon. One of the studies associated with that, done by the Univ. of Pennsylvania calculated that with renewable energy, we could generate 185,000 megawatts of power. There are already 43,000 American companies, already in business that would be able to crank out the components to develop these renewable systems. That's 43,000 American companies, creating jobs for Americans - wow! And this generation of energy would create 850,000+ jobs. Probably jobs we don't have to worry about lettuce-pickers taking (got that Hannity?) Here's the link: http://www.apolloalliance.org/downloads/REPP_PA.pdf . This, in my eyes, would be our "industrial revolution" of the 2000's. Similar to how the industrial revolution propelled our country and the world, it could happen again. Without it, the next war will not be fought with guns, it will be economical and China (is) will kick our asses.
    Additionally, with 185,000 megawatts of energy, we reduce our demand for OPEC products - and set ourselves up so that in the future, they will be coming to us for the technology to efficiently make renewable energy. Then we name the price - what's so bad about that?
    Many framers here are very progressive when it comes to business models, ideas, marketing, etc., but it's odd how tied to our internal combustion engines we are. Well - I'm going out to hang my laundry on the clothes line (actually I just made that up-I'm really going to have a shot of Don Felipe Anejo.)
    Best -
    Ron C.
     
  33. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    China may be consuming an increasing amount of energy but they are also moving fast on green technology themselves. The Chinese government knows they will face problems in the near future and is seriously looking at alternative sources of energy and energy conservation. There was a program on not too long ago about some of the green building initiatives they have there. There were some really interesting design ideas they have come up with to conserve energy and use fewer resources.
     
  34. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Of all the ways to produce energy, nuclear energy is the cleanest and cheapest. IMHO
    Unfortunately, the chances of more nuclear reactors being built anytime soon are remote.

    The only silver lining to the high price of oil, is it will make other types of energy production more economically feasible.

    Montana has huge deposits of shale which can be processed into oil. The Governor of Montana is really pushing this technology.

    Ethanol is helpful, but it's increasing the price of corn, and creating food shortages.

    I can foresee a day when I will drive to work in my electric Ocean Art truck, that's recharged by solar panels on the roof. At work, I'll run my machines with compressed air powered by solar panels on the roof. ;)
     
  35. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Corn is actually a really wasteful way to produce ethanol. Besides the amount of food it takes out of the food supply, corn is a high maintence crop requiring quite a bit of work using tractors and chemical inputs to produce, most of which come from petroleum products. Add to that the areas where it needs irrigation to grow, which requires energy to run the pumps. So growing corn to turn in to ethanol actually uses quite a bit of petroleum. There are other crops that require less input to produce that ethanol can be made from. If we increase ethanol production, it should be done with these.
     
  36. gemini

    gemini CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Respectfully disagree with your assertions Bob. China and India aren't "slurpping up" oil as much as we do. The US consumes over 20 billion bbl's per day. While China and India consume less than 1/2 that amount combined. All the more startling when you consider the discrepancy in population. Combined China and India have a population of 2.5 billion while we maintain just over 300 million.
    To flippantly throw Nigerians into the post is irresponsible and short sighted.



    There is plenty of oil in the ground to get us by for 50 years or longer but the amount in ANWR is miniscule compaired to our current dependence. Thats a stopgap, and a silly one when you consider we can buy it for less than we can produce it.
    The entire point is to decrease our use, not support our use which you seem to be advocating. I'm guessing you support lifting the Federal tax on gasoline as well?

    We have a reponsibility to the generations that will come after us to find better means of energy and transportation. Not dig up the earth so we can continue our "slurpping ways", and then let our children figure out how to deal with the mess we'll leave them.
     
  37. Tom Reigle

    Tom Reigle Guest

    "The human being is the only animal on the face of the earth which purposely fouls its own nest merely for the sake of convenience."

    I don't remember who said that but he must have been a man of much foresight.
     
  38. Mecianne

    Mecianne SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Weird. I agree with Bob. Did anyone just feel the earth tremble? Grow weed, tax it....use those taxes to fund something useful. This supposed "war on drugs" and the grotesque waste of money funding this imaginary war could also be used for something useful. And by useful, I don't mean giving the suits in Washington a raise so they can afford better hookers. Oh, and speaking of hookers....legalize that, too.
     
  39. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey Gem-We need to caeful about suggesting posts are irresponsible. People can, and should, have differing opinions

    May I ask, since you have easy access to the numbers what those bbls/day were 5yrs ago or 10 yrs ago or 20 yrs ago for onsumption in India and China? And, more importantly what they will be in 5 yrs, 10 yrs and 20 yrs from today? I'm sorry you take such offense from "slurping"; perhaps consuming is better

    These developing countries are every bit as much of th problem and will get more so. 20 yrs ago, I'll bet they had half as many cars as today; how many 20 yrs hence?

    These people will not have anywhere near the environmental considerations; I think most will agree. Is there a strong environmental movement in Nigeria? A Sierra Club? An EPA?

    Bottom line: If we came up with a dead solid plan today, won't my grandchildren still see gas driven cars on the highways? Won't there be a transition that will last my life time? Or longer?

    One thing that is for certain: The people involved in planning at the behemoth oil compnies seem to think ANWR is awfully lucrative. My concern is a simple one. Control our own destiny as we transition into other forms. Instead of spending gajillions of dollars to other countries that don't much care for us; why not spend that right here? Will the environmental impact of drilling in Saudi or Nigeria or off the continental shelf by Cuba somehow be preffered to our own controls. Does anyone really think those people have stricter oversight?

    I dont know how the opponents of ANWR are so certain of this fact, but it seem irrevocable that the more ardent the foe, the less oil available up there

    What is it that makes the foes so much smarter in both geology and economics than those folks at the oil companies thatare betting their super fat bonuses on their suppositions

    ANWR is not the answer; but one simple rung on the ladder of energy independence
     
  40. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    So far we have been talking mainly about cars, but the largest chunk of energy we use is actually used by buildings. The more we can do to make our buildings more energy effiecent, the more fuel of all kinds we will have for other uses now and in the future. Not to mention the personal savings in lower energy bills, something I'm all in favor of.
     
  41. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Great point, Anne

    We are in the process of replacing a 20+ yr old heat pump. The EER ratings are tremendously more efficient than our present unit. Had we made that connection, me should have replaced it years ago. The savings wil pay for the unit in just a few years (in my pocket; and in our planet)

    Problem is that initial cost of retro-fit; most folks either cannot or simply won't (kinda like health insurance-wink wink)

    Make it affordable (cost efficient) and there will be a parade of conversion. As much as I am against many forms of governmental intervention, this may be a method through tax credits
     
  42. gemini

    gemini CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Never said the post was irresponsible Bob, your flip comment about Nigeria was.
    I'm all for differing opinions, but at least make sure we attempt to back up those opinions with some facts on occassion.

    The facts regarding Nigeria are irrefutable. A declining population being decimated by illness, starvation and tribal warfare.

    BTW, they use about 300,000 bbl per day. ;)
     
  43. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    We wanted to put in a ground source heat pump when we were looking at heating options for our house, but Wisconsin at that time had a law that any house that had one had to be super insulated. Since our house is over 100 years old, it didn't qualify. They finally repealed that law last year so we may have to look at it again. Our electric coop gives incentives for using them.
     
  44. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Okay, Gemini, I get it. You have an emotional attachment to the misery of Nigeria. Perhaps I would have been safer had I mentioned any other country?

    My point was that one of the big stumbling blocks to ANWR is to some the environmental consequences. I am certain that very few countries have the same stringent requirements as those that will surely be in place in ANWR

    We know exploration will go on for decades. Its a shame that the only concern for the environment by many is limited to political advantage. Perhaps you can help me on why Nigeria is an example of environmental stewardship

    I will easily retract my assertion
     
  45. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I think it's called compassion Bob.
     
  46. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Doug-I wasn't being sarcastic. I appreciate that she has compassion

    My consideration was for her comment on the irresponsible nature of my post. Had I listed Mexico or Lagos (instead of Nigeria) would the post still have been irreponsible?

    I am being serious here
     
  47. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, you do business well, you bring up good thoughts and threads,

    but, please, don't do sarcasm. And don't respond to the part of threads that you think attack you personally! You come across as a brash heavy handed bully of a boss intent on quashing dissent!

    Oh, and yes you are right, I don't follow my own advice! The sad thing is that in many of my posts I actually edit out stuff before I press "post"!
     
  48. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Going back to something talked about to before, I have some questions for BobC. With your heat pump, do you use it for both heating and cooling? Do you have a back up energy source to level the temps out? If so, what? You have obviously been happy with the system since you are putting in a newer version of the same thing and I was interested to hear more about it since we may consider one in the future.
     
  49. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey Anne-Can't be as knowledgeable as i should. All I can tell is heat pumps are combo and are method du jour. We have extreme heats and very moderate winters creating a wide spread of capacity requirements. In AZ ceiling fans are pretty much standard equipment, but nothing much more than that

    Hey Bob D-I hear you, but I have that Popeye syndrome that I yam what I yam.

    Ireally wasn't trying to be sarcastic or bullying; I truly wanted to know what was irresponsible in my post. In fact, if it was listed as Lagos or Mexico instead of Nigeria, Gemini probably would have never reacted. Just don't know why my choice is what made it irresponsible. I thought the "attack" was a liitle goofy

    Had i said Ukraine or Venezuela, i doubt we would be having this discussion. Or, am I still missing something?

    I did have another thought by Anne (I think it was her) indicating that we import more oil from Canada than Saudi. I'll take her at face, but with this question: I understand why the Arabs are jacking up the prices astronomically (because they can and they are greedy b@st@rds) but why are our good friends to the north following suite? If eben our friends can gouge us so easily, isn't that even more compelling reason to be self-sufficient?
     
  50. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It was as of February this year that we are now getting more oil from Canada than Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure how the price that is paid for oil is determined. Is it directly tied to the commodities trading? I know those numbers have been really high per barrel.
     
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