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Tolerance of another Point of View

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Bob Carter, Jun 26, 2008.

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  1. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I posted what I thought was a pretty benign post saying how admirable it was to see communities in Iowa come together after the tornadoes and then flooding

    Almost immediately it was deemed racist when I truly was impressed with the sense of community, especially since my wife's family is from Clinton, Iowa (righton the Mississippi)

    It grew from there and a poster had two back to back posts directed at me personally thatwere as mean as anything seen here

    I received a notice from Lance E, who as moderator, said I would be "banned" for one week for my part and that the thread removed. Prior to that I had decided that this place was getting way too politically out of control and dominated by 7 or 8 folks that were just as out of bounds as the 7 or 8 extremists that call into Rush

    A friend notified me that the chief co-conspirator that had just flat said some horribly terrific things was posting as usual. So, I guess I was the only one "banned"

    It really is time for me to move on but just thought it might be interesting to think about

    I notified a few friends that I would no longer be participating
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  2. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob, I have not seen the thread in question, so I can not comment on it. I was not aware of anybody being "banned" from TG. I will say this, I, and I know a whole lot of people, will miss your input on this forum. We have both been known to get a little hot headed, I think it is due to our very short fuses that God issued to us when we were born. I hope you will reconsider this decision.

    In either case, "May the force be with you."

  3. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    Without seeing the post you are talking about, I can't pass judgment on what was said.

    That being, I think the "moderator" needs to do a reality check!

    Even tho I have disagreed with quite a bit of Bob's postings, he is still one of the best people who ever posted on this site.

    Maybe the Grumble needs a review board of sorts made up of the other moderators to review and reverse rulings such as these.
    Personally, no one moderator should have the ultimate authority to ban anyone. It needs to be a majority vote of all the moderators.

    Bob, please, don't go.
  4. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    I know that you took a break from here not too long ago and came back.

    I really hope that after a short time you will return again.

    I for one really need your business insights.

    I also failed to see what was wrong with the thread you started. And I think I stayed out of it, which was a little contradictory to my character.
  5. couture's gallery

    couture's gallery PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob...don't let a few ruin it for you..stay the course and stay on the grumble.
  6. UzZx32QU

    UzZx32QU Administrator Staff Member

    Ok! to clear up the air. As you are posting this you have not been banned from the Grumble just "The Warp Moulding Forum". The other party circumvented the ban and posted again on warp and he is now totally banned for two weeks.

  7. FramerRandy

    FramerRandy CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    If Bob can be banned for anything he says, then we can all be banned. I for one have appreciated Bob's insights. Sounds like a moderator needs :beer: I'll stick to my :kaffeetrinker_2:
  8. Baer Charlton

    Baer Charlton SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Think of it as more of a "Summer Vacation" Bob. We'll see you in Sept.
  9. UzZx32QU

    UzZx32QU Administrator Staff Member

    Again Bob is not banned from the G. Just a timeout, 7 days, from "Warp".

  10. Framing Goddess

    Framing Goddess SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well, Bob, I didn't see the thread either because I have been so blasted busy here at the shop.

    I am so busy here at the shop because I have made a lot of changes in pricing and how I do business in general over the past 7-8 years since I came on the Grumble. That was when I started reading what you had to say and then I REALLY started reading it. And then I read it some more. And that was all before lunch. And then I got me a POS and made the changes in pricing and buying and marketing and hiring that you recommended and ... and... and... well, I have more work than I can handle and it has been steadily increasing.

    I would not still be in business if I hadn't made those changes based directly on what you said.

    So, if you go, know that I will always be grateful for being here on the grumble when I was and for saying what you said. If you stay, I will keep reading and heeding. And maybe others will, too.

    edie the almostabusinessperson goddess
  11. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    Well said Edie! Bob scared the bejeezus out of me when he first offered to help me. Once I met him and saw what a teddy bear he was.............I've already told Bob I would not have gotten this far without his advise. I'm closing my doors and virtually penniless now but still I got this far.( that was meant to be funny) Bob truly gave me courage to even try to be a business person. If I could have overcome my location and lack of funds I would have been one of Bob's success stories.

    Most of us in this industry are not natural business people. In spite of that Bob has managed to break through to some of us. Sure, he is rough around the edges but do we really need all that sugar coating?

    I hope you stick around Bob!
  12. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    For some of us Warped IS the Grumble!

    And the Grumble is family. I want my daddy back!

    I'm gonna hold my breath til I turn blue, ooh, a shiney thing outside, huh where was I...
  13. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    All punitive actions taken by the moderator team are discussed at length by the moderators and the forum owner. There are no loose cannons. I cannot remember a decision of this nature not being unanimous.
    The moderator that delivered the message volunteered to do so.
  14. DLB

    DLB MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I personally believe that if moderators go off willy nilly on people and start banning people for a week or a month or year or forever, we are going to degrade this community. I have seen it happen on other boards, and I have stopped visiting them just because of that. One of the most popular ones was just too "Hilterized" because of a few pushy moderators.

    I think that a moderators job is to MODERATE not BAN. This is idiotic, and really infuriates me that we are alienating one of the best business minds we have on here. Call me selfish, but I want his knowledge.

    A week long ban isn't the point. The point is, is that we're banning someone for a period of time. What does that say to them? We don't value your opinion? We don't want you around? I don't see the difference if it's the Art News forum or the Warped. It's all the same. The WHOLE thing is the Grumble.

    I can't blame Bob for wanting to leave and not come back. I would probably feel the same way. Excuse me if I'm stepping on anyone's toes, but guess what! I'm probably bigger than you, so deal with it.

    Bob, whatever you choose, you are valued, and appreciated.

    dave.(a dave that is really PI$$ED off right now).
  15. Emibub

    Emibub PFG, Picture Framing God

    Hey, for the record all these moderators do so voluntarily. They aren't a bunch of willy nilly folks. I know and like each and every one of them. We have to count on them to use their best judgement whether we agree or not.

    I'm looking at it as a cooling off period. I saw the mess and it was ugly for all concerned.

    As I said above I am a Bob fan too.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2008
  16. -S-

    -S- CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    What everybody else said...only, the moderators must be allowed to exercise their judgment, and I haven't read the thread, so I don't know who is out of line, if anyone. Maybe Bob did need a time out — most of us to do once in a while.

    Blah blah blah...

    The important thing is that many Grumblers value Bob's presence and business insights; I include myself in that category and hope he comes back.

    I also greatly admire that he omits full stops (periods) at the end of paragraphs. They are redundant. I love it when people do the sensible/correct yet unpopular thing. Mark of a true leader. Yay, Bob! Here's to your heroic use of punctuation. :beer:
  17. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I just got a PM on this thread and may I say that I am not upset for the week's ban and do not think the moderator's did wrong. I appreciate what Bill does for our community

    My post was directed at the what I thought was the singlular "ban" and Framer has satisfied that

    My exit really has more to do with the volatility of the site and I cannot see it getting better between now and November. This is one fight I'd rather walk away from

    In fairness to Framer, I did email him personally and ask that he place a permanent ban on the Warp to ensure that I not let temptation overtake my better judgement

    This is a wonderful site with some truly amazing people, but I don't listen to crazy talk radio for the same reason that a few extreme positioned people just make it uncomfortable

    The forum nor it's administrators are at fault
  18. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, if you put a self imposed ban on your participation in Warped then I, personally, would start advocating for a new forum to be named Carter's Corner, which we could devolve into a second Warped!
  19. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I didn't see anything in the thread mentioned, that was out of the ordinary bickering that goes
    on here at the G.

    Tempers got a little hot, but that seems to happen from time to time.

    I think there was some genuine confusion going on between Bob and the other person involved, and others including myself, about what was actually being said.

    Sometimes it's hard to understand the meaning the person is trying to get across with just words and no facial expressions.

    I think this misunderstanding contributed to the angry tone of the thread.

    Bob, hopefully after a few weeks you will join the G again.
  20. DLB

    DLB MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Websters Dictionary says:

    Mod*er*ate ---vt. 1. To make less violent, sever or extreme. 2. To preside over as a moderator.

    I don't see ban anywhere. This means using words. I can understand that it's a hard decision to make, but the nature of banning someone is a stigma. This is a bad road to go down. Just because the feature is built in to the software, doesn't mean you have to use it. Sorry, I'm not really pointing a finger at anyone, I'm just trying to get an idea out there, that "banning" is not the way to go. It erodes the community.

    If you get in a fight with your friend, you don't ban them. Nor do you not talk to them (at least healthy friends). You discuss with them, and come to a amicable solution.

    Sorry. I'm done on my :soapbox:.

    Ignore the giant ranting in the corner over here.

  21. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I guess I'm thankful that I missed that original thread!

    I wondered where you were Bob and did miss seeing your posts. Though I don't always agree with you in some areas your input is greatly missed.

    Hope you're back soon.

  22. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Like so many other examples its just selective weeding of the least popular.

    I understand the system and I'm perfectly happy with the system. I don't care to change it or even try. But fair it is not. I've seen the least popular weeded out or shut down for what I can't only decipher as unpopular. I get to that understanding because there are far more obnoxious or disturbing images and posts in other threads that are ignored.

    Again, I'm not an activist and don't care to protest for a change. I live comfortable inside the guidelines set before me. I also have seen this scene play out before and recognize it. Bob just wasn't popular and he will be handled while the other ignored.

    I self regulate via my ignore feature and staying out of thread I don't care to read. I quit reading that thread just minutes after I began the very first time. If I became offended reading further, it would have been my fault.

    I have found Bob to be one of the most outspoken but unagressive poster on the G. Thats a tight rope act. I find it very hard to believe that compaired to so many other things, even myself, that Bob would warrant such actions. ....well unless he was unpopular. In that case take a walk Bobby!
  23. The King

    The King SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    A perspective from one of the loose canons:

    I was personally appalled at how much discussion and hand-ringing went on among the moderators before this relatively minor disciplinary action was taken. I wanted to scream, "Just do it!"

    The job of the moderators is not defined by Webster's Dictionary and, thank God, it's not defined by the users/guests on this privately-owned forum. It's defined by the forum owner (who actually selected the moderators.)

    And the job stinks, BTW.
  24. imaluma

    imaluma SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I missed most of the first thread but caught the intro to the one that seemed like it was meant to clear the air of it. But it was so one sided and mean I decided to not read the rest and stay out of it. The ignore function would work well for this.

    I try to keep politics out of my online relationships. Things are always going to be misconstrued and nobody is going to change another's mind. It is just the nature of the beast.
  25. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob, I missed all the controversy as I don't often read warped. I'll miss your strong solid business advice, so please come back soon after you have taken care of the home and business front. Now that you're not teaching, we need your sage advice here.
  26. nancyg

    nancyg CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Make a point, move on

    So when did it become so objectionable to disagree with someones views. And why do we shush one another lest someone get upset.....
    That is a huge problem with political discussion these days; we either talk about issues with only those we agree with, or we don't talk at all.

    I read the posts in question, and yes it was filled with misunderstandings, and heated rebuttals, and even some squewed viewpoints (in my opinion), but so.....

    Bob, I am a relative shadow around here, but I too would hate for you not to contribute to Warped or any other of the forums. This place is a little window on the world, and we should be able to handle all the pretty views.

    Smile away
    Nancy G
  27. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I was reading the "thread in question", and while when I was reading it it didn't go beyond the pale, I have heard that it got very personal and private stuff became public. I have too much respect for Mr Carter, and others involved, to ever want to read what he said and what was said about him! I am glad that that part of the discussion was removed.

    Carter's Corner opening soon! :)
  28. Lance E

    Lance E Member

    I have huge respect for those who were given a timeout. I delivered a message relating to this and could perhaps have expanded on it, if there is ever a next time (which I certainly hope there isn't) I will be better informed as to creating a message to convey such information with less confusion.

    Bob, thanks for bringing this up and giving me the opportunity to learn, I do hope you stick around.
  29. Rebecca

    Rebecca SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't know what happened behind the scenes after the threads were deleted, but I am sure that anyone who saw the last posts of that infamous thread would agree that it was best that they were removed.

    It's easy to say something that we later regret, and it's better for everyone if our words aren't archived for future generations : )

  30. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob, we're probably polar opposites when it comes to politics (heck, I don't even agree with myself on politics), but I enjoy having you around here and appreciate your insights and humor. I come here for framing stuff, and I have political blogs I can post at when I need to rage against the machine. I realize I'm not going to change anyone's political views in an online forum; that'll have to be done over a couple of drinks in Las Vegas or some such place. In the meantime, I'll just have to tolerate so many people being so wrong on so many issues...and I'm not saying who or what!
  31. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I missed most of the controversial thread, but it must have been a real doozie. Apparently more than one Grumbler made some mistakes, and that's too bad.

    My only purpose here is to vouch for the moderators. These people are our friends, and they have volunteered to do a thankless job. It is time consuming and difficult. When they take action, individually or as a group, someone is usually unhappy about it. Count me among those who appreciate their work and respect their judgment.
  32. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I'll second that statement.

    It was just a slap on the wrist by the moderators. Life goes on. :D
  33. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob is a class act.

    Kicked out of Warped...........Big deal!!!

    Life is like baseball.

    Is there a single manager in the major leagues who hasn't been thrown out of a game?

    Yea Bob.......[​IMG]

  34. Framar

    Framar SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    If there is an "Ignore" feature on the Grumble so one doesn't have to read posts by Grumblers one doesn't agreed with, wouldn't it make just as much sense to add an "Ignore" feature for threads one doesn't wish to read, for whatever reason?

    I never read sports threads, for instance, and yet when going through all of the threads from Previous to Next, I have to wait for an entire thread to load so I can scroll to the end and click on Next. Likewise, discussions about saws are useless to me (I only buy chop and RM) - see what I mean?

    If there were such a tool for the Grumble we could all avoid those nasty threads where the mudslinging starts and then we could all join hands and sing Kumbaya.

    Come back Bob - we need you now more than ever!!! Maybe some day your wise business teachings will even sink into my little brain!
  35. jframe

    jframe <span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><

    Get a grip, Grumblers.

    Most of you haven't been here long enough to have a clue as to the history of the G, the inception of moderators or how the need for discipline came about.

    You have no idea of how visciousness, pettiness and complete disregard for fellow human beings that some of the banned have exhibited.

    We should turn this lovefest in to a lovefest for UzZx32QU. He's the ONLY reason any of us are here.
  36. rsee

    rsee CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Exhange of ideas=hope

    In my view, if we can't exchange views, information, etc. then there's no hope to ever have progress. I did post on the thread in question, I was concerned about what, in my opinion, was passive aggressive in nature. In fact, it sounded exactly like what I had heard earlier in the day on FOX news, except it was missing the "between the lines" stuff that FOX talked about. So, I addressed it as I saw it, but I also provided facts complete with links.
    If people are sending hostile pm's, I'm not sure how that can ever accomplish anything. In my view, when you get that worked up about something, write your comments, complete with uncensored swears on toilet paper and then flush it. Trust me, it's very therapeutic.
    What I saw of the post, I didn't find to be offensive, however I strongly challenged the content and I hope that wasn't a problem for the thread and the moderators. I'm also hoping that anyone who questioned my post took the time to check my provided links. I don't accept anything from 1 source and it is harder for me when there is no sources listed.
    I'm hoping the intent of the board isn't to create a cult of consensus. That's a lot more dangerous than a few posts that cross the line.

    Ron C.
  37. Rebecca

    Rebecca SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Ron, it was not the exchange of views that caused that thread to be removed or any between the lines stuff, passive aggressive or not. You must have missed the last few posts. A line was crossed.

    As Jo says, it is Framer who deserves the kudos here.

  38. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    A definite thanks to Framer and the Moderators is needed. Bob threw himself out of the sandbox on the last page of that thread, he has done it before and come back....many of us have done the very same thing. No big deal, most just don't announce it. We all need to take a breather, cooling off period, whatever you call it from time to time. Self imposed or not.

    In his hiatus I'm sure everyone will benefit from each others sage advice and wisdom, and Bob will be back again to do the same I am sure.

    But Jo put it best:

    Get A Grip Grumblers :vomit:
  39. The King

    The King SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It is not, nor has it ever been, anyone's intention to squelch opposing points of view. I think it safe to say that, among the moderators themselves, you would find opposing points of view on many of the topics discussed.

    But personal attacks, name-calling and dredging up personal information (accurate or not) is not tolerated. It's a shame that civility among adults has to be mandated and enforced but, if you've been here a while and paying attention, you understand that it does.

    There are unmoderated forums out there for those who prefer them, and there are venues for those who prefer an "all-business" approach. I think Grumble has done a pretty good job of maintaining a happy medium. I understand that only about half of you will be happy with any particular decision. If it was possible to please everybody all the time, I think Bill would be all for it.

    You can believe it or not, but so would the moderators.
  40. framah

    framah PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm glad to hear that the moderators do discuss it among themselves and come to a concensus. Thank you for enlightening us (me) on that point.

    Time to move on.
  41. deaconsbench

    deaconsbench SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Speaking from personal experience, I can add a hearty 'thank you' to framer and the moderators. Truly a largely thankless job, and they do achieve a quorum before making the bigger decisions. It's a very good system, and most of us appreciate the end results.

  42. FramingFool

    FramingFool In Corner

    Having voiced an unpopular position myself, and, as a result, been accused of having urinated in my Cheerios for it, I can empathisize with anyone who chooses run counter to The Powers (The Powers being The Current Elitist Clique of toadies ... actually, they're not too current .... been here for years).

    Don't gimme this "Oh, they're so overworked with this thankless job...." and "oh, I ALWAYS agree with the moderators .... "

    Those that Own Amerika have received the same kind of consolation ....and here we are, with a Constitution in shambles.

    The right for us to voice an opinion, albeit not in accord with the sheepish masses, is an obligation. Sure, this is a Private Forum ... but when you put it out here for all to join, it becomes something other than "private".

    I don't want to see bannings unless we're talking about bodily threats.

    ( BTW.... I've been here from the beginning (member #43) ... Date of Joining means little.)
  43. FramingFool

    FramingFool In Corner

  44. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    OK now this is just getting outrageously silly. :) Do you really believe what you are saying, DLB and FramingFool? Did you even view the offensive content, to know what you are commenting on?

    The moderator who removed the post, did so because the parties were attacking each other VERY viciously and personally. It was NOT due to the alleged racism or politics being discussed as the subject of that thread. It went well beyond civil, and our community guidelines.

    They acted promptly and correctly to remove the highly offensive material, and then discussed it with the rest of the moderator team. It took us several days of debate before unanimously agreeing to a small "slap on the wrist", by suspending access to just one of the forums for a 7 day period.

    This matter was handled professionally and quietly, showing respect for the parties involved. Both parties are respected contributors and this type of behavior was far out of character. The goal was to preserve their dignity, and let them cool off a bit, so they can continue on the system. They were each contacted privately, and as far as I know they were in agreement.

    There is not a single moderator who has abused their position and I can count on one hand how may people are banned from this system. If that were to change, I would be the first to resign.

    We try to use an EXTREMELY laid back and "hands off" approach, which encourages participation - rather than stifling it with heavy handed moderation and rules. The policies are "common sense", and few. However, this isn't a bar room or boxing match. There have to be SOME limits of decency, and that line was most certain crossed. (strong personal attacks)

    If that makes us an "elititest clique of toadies", then so be it. We would do exactly the same thing, if it happened again; without a moment of hesitation.

    While I strongly disagree, and feel that you have greatly misjudged the issue and our volunteers, I respect your right to voice an opinion. If you think you could do a better job, you may even wish to apply yourself?

    Bill owns and runs this private system, and has the final say in all matters. He was in full agreement, and adjusted the user file personally. We're all here, in his "home", by invitation.

    Participation is a priviledge, not a God given right.

    Mike Labbe
  45. FramingFool

    FramingFool In Corner

    Did you even watch the video??
  46. D_Derbonne

    D_Derbonne PFG, Picture Framing God

    The video was funny.
  47. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Well said Mike. And it would be a good idea to make your reply a sticky!
  48. FramingFool

    FramingFool In Corner

    okie dokie... it's your game.
  49. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't agree with your viewpoint. This is a private forum, not a democracy.
    The moderators gave a little slap on the wrist.

    However, the video was funny. :D
  50. The King

    The King SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That seems fair.

    My opinion is that you have, once again, lived up to your screen name.
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