Trade Show Expense

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Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, I go with Spokane, the ideal location for me and the family would come to, Lucy my eight year old wants to go back to Spokane to have Chunky Cheese, Jean wants to see her friend again and I missed the last trip to Spokane.

 
Originally posted by jvandy57:


Now are you happy Betty?

Jerry Vandergriff, CPF
President, KY/TN Chapter PPFA
McCue and Blanford Frame Shop Supply
Crestwood, KY
From the sec'atary to the Prez. Yep!

Betty
 
Okay, so Spokane was probably the equivalent of suggesting St. John's, Newfoundland or something...... Probably one of the Seattle burbs would have been a better suggestion in that area, I guess.


They probably do have a couple of Chunked-back-up Cheeseys there in Spokane, though!

Seriously, I can't imagine THE NY show completely falling off the horizon but there sure does seem to be a lot of agreement that the hassles and costs have overcome the benefits.
 
Okay, so Spokane was probably the equivalent of suggesting St. John's, Newfoundland or something...... Probably one of the Seattle burbs would have been a better suggestion in that area, I guess.


They probably do have a couple of Chunked-back-up Cheeseys there in Spokane, though!

Seriously, I can't imagine THE NY show completely falling off the horizon but there sure does seem to be a lot of agreement that the hassles and costs have overcome the benefits.
 
Dear friends,

I hear your pain and I am with you in this. Unfortunately, markets, fairs and shows, are not established or moved away with visitors or buyers will. Aside exhibitors' costs, many other less obvious but equally important reasons are determinant when it comes to setting the place of a show. If exhibitors’ cost was the only decisive argument, I'd have long ago had the NY show stolen and moved over to Romania ;)
Do I need to remind you of buyers' important but yet passive role in the market? Not only do those buyers always follow and meet the vendors at the market place but they are also in total awe at the view of new products, technologies, or fashion trends that are being proposed to them. Unfortunately, in our industry buyers are excessively passive and dependant on their suppliers for materials, tools, technologies and even good-taste design.

Mr. Peter Ackerman, if you really mean to change something -I admire your courage and determination- you need to be talking to LJ, LaMarche, Roma, Pistorius, and the like. Only you, the main exhibitors, can make things move one way or the other if NYC is no longer serving your interests; framers will simply follow you.
I am the first to admit that things are rotten at the NY frame show. I would venture to say that the big absent names deserted the NY show not to save money but because it no longer serves their interest. LJ took his severe and emaciated look because it does not address yesteryears worldwide, sophisticated competition or attendance. NY frame show is no longer the most important and sophisticated frame show in the world and its audience and attendance is poor and getting poorer and less demanding with every year.
Peter, you are the only sizable vendor to have brought this topic in the open and I respect you for that, but, since no other big vendor has joined you in addressing this topic, there are only three conclusions that I can gather:
- They don’t read the Grumble (and I can't believe it),
- They don't share your opinions (again, hard to believe it) or
- They don't think this forum to be appropriate environment for important frame industry policy making.
 
As much as I would love to have a show or shows closer to my home and there by cut my cost and time away from the shop,I don't think that small regional shows are a substitution for the bigger all encompassing shows.But i do love to get together with the other shops and share while seeing some of the vendors that aren't sure just where all the shops are.The reason for the poll I couldn't sucessfully post was to point out that we all spend way too much to warrant going to multple shows. So what we need is shows that suplly all that we need in a show and at a cost that is reasonable.
The real problem isn't only the location (Even though I personally think N'awlins would be great,but then I'm sure all of you have another site in mind),but the unreasonable COST.We all should understand cost and profits.But what about being taken advatage of?
The suggestion to change venues could be just a differnt hall,that had lower rates and less expensive labor agreements.It could be a producer that kept the cost of other things like classes and side trips down.It could be finding hotel accomadation that aren't as posh but cost less.
I onlygo to 1 maybe 2 shows ayear and I pick the one that offers the most and cost me the least.Aren't we all in the same boat?
BUDDY
 
Hey Frame Harbor ... what in your book constitutes a "big vendor"?
shrug.gif


I'm not sure which hurts more, that you don't consider us a big vendor, or that you don't give me credit for being intelligent enough to read the Grumble.

Guess I’ll go eat some more spinach.
 
Vendors big and small... Please contact me if you agree with this issue. Together we can force the show managers to keep costs down. It is time that we who pay the bills called the shots. Our collective voice will be heard. Catt me, e-mail me, write me. Lets do this and save the show circuit.

Funny we have not heard from the show managers. Are you there Pfingsten Publishing, LLC... are you there Picture frame magazine?

If you hope this will just go away, think again!
Peter Ackerman
peter.ackerman@unitedmfrs.com
(800)645-7260 x231
80 Gordon Drive
Syosset, NY 11791
 
Edd,

I red your post and I'm glad that the way you coped with NY Frame Show this year worked so well for you. Also, far from me the thought that Wizard is not a sizable vendor, or you intelligent enough to read the Grumble. In fact, I mentioned in my post that I myself wouldn’t believe the first two possible conclusions to be true.
You know that I know that you know full well what I was saying ;)

BTW, I have a couple of questions for you:
1. Do you infer that this year Wizard's success with the show was in any way, shape or form related to its condo-participation formula? With other words, if Wizard was to represent itself at the show with its own booth, like so many times in the past, those who appreciated and ordered its products would have been less numerous, confident and fast to purchase? If so, I’m tempted to believe that something is wrong with Wizard’s booth not its products.
2. Are Wizard’s distributors equally enthusiastic about their participation to the show as you are? I see a conflict of interests as large as it can get in your success formula and I wonder if and how you got around it.
3. Am I wrong or, indeed, your NY show success experience, if generalized, would bring about future shows with fewer booths, a limited and bizarre association of products and many toxic alliances between exhibitors? Wonder who would cross the country or the Atlantic as to visit such fairs?
4. Ultimately, is Wizard backing United in its push to boycott the NY show or some Grumblers to instrument another show in a more remote and inexpensive place? If so, I will admit that I fully misunderstood what you intended to say in your first message. Still, I believe that it takes more than United and Wizard to promote that boycott and you cannot do without as many large and prestigious vendors as you can rally; Munn, LJ, LaMarche, Roma, Pistorius, Fletcher among many others on both shores of the Atlantic.
 
Frame H.,

My last post was just a feeble attempt at humor, plus I am trying to get in enough posts to shed the “Grumbler in training” moniker.

First and foremost I don’t support a full boycott of any show. I would like to see the Show Organizers work more closely with the Suppliers/Vendors/Manufacturers etc. on show venues. My “protest” this year stemmed from two incidents and a little history. The New York show has been notoriously expensive for us and has not shown it self to be tremendously successful. Our costs in New York exceed what we spend in Atlanta yet we do only 10% - 30% as much business in New York. I won’t belabor the pier incident, but it was the catalyst for our lack of “Company” presence at the show. If we’d had a Company booth this year I assume we would have placed the same number of machines, but my costs would have been 5 to 6 times what they were.

Having said that, we are moving towards Distributor centric placement programs, as well as pushing education for our prospects and customers. To avoid potential conflict at tradeshows between our in-house efforts and our Distributor program, we chose not to have a “Company” booth. Next year you will probably see a Company “Customer Support” booth (small) and we will co-op with our Distributors again for the machine placement efforts (not carved in stone but most likely). Our Distributors are extremely excited about their ability to place Wizard machines, particularly if they aren’t competing with the Company at the show.

I have to believe that the ‘big” vendors who had enormous booths in New York, either have a great history of doing strong business at the show, or feel compelled to maintain an image. I may have sacrificed a bit of Wizard image (I hope not) but I couldn’t justify the expense based on our historical performance. Ours is a somewhat unique situation however. If a person decides that they want to RENT a Wizard machine, they are going to call us because we are the only rental game in town (not over confidence, just reality right now). If they can’t see us demonstrate at the show, they generally call us and have us arrange a demo with an existing customer. Other vendors have to be concerned that if they aren’t at the show, they may loose a sale, and I can sympathize with them.

I want to agree with the posts that talk about more economically friendly locations for shows, they would be better for Exhibitors. I can’t speak intelligently as to whether Framers would flock to Columbus Ohio, but it doesn’t appear that they flocked to New York this year either. I don’t see this as an “us against them” issue. I think it’s more of a situation where circumstances are demanding a different approach and we all need to work together towards a solution, exhibitors, show organizers, and attendees (how’s that for politically correct).

Whew, my fingers are tired.
 
Edd,

Shorter posts = greater numbers.

Just kidding, Edd. I think you'd find "more vendor participation" on nearly everyone's wish-list for The Grumble. Thank you for your involvement here. There are a few others that contribute regularly, but if I start mentioning names, I know I'm going to forget someone, so: Thanks to all of you!

Ron
 
Originally posted by WizardEdd:
[QB]Frame H.,

My last post was just a feeble attempt at humor, plus I am trying to get in enough posts to shed the “Grumbler in training” moniker.

Edd,

I got your point and praise your strong commitment for framers education. Just to prove my own sense of humor, I'll try getting your attention and support for the wannabe Grumblers Frame Design Contest. We have hundreds of talented Grumblers able and willing to express their original frame design ideas if given the opportunity. Such a contest would be beneficial to the entire industry. Past Grumbler's experience with running a different contest was a failure due to poor organizing skills and feeble, symbolic support from improvised sponsors. Would you commit Wizard's support for such an event, Edd? Your positive answer is likely to capacitate others to back such an instructive and resourceful contest. LJ, LaMarche, Fletcher, United and PFM do you think Grumblers to be able frame designers deserving of your support?

Cornel Rosca
 
Originally posted by po' framer:
[QB]Jim Miller, you've hit on a thought that's so radical it makes awesome sense...[\QB]
Well thanks fer yer kind words, Po' framer. A large rural show could be fun...but maybe not to the extent of trudging through mud -- with or without your 50 amp RV. And no, you can't park it in my back yard (NIMBY).

A big show in a midwest city should be well attended because it could be inexpensive, convenient, and profitable for everyone involved. Right? Right??

A history lesson: Annual framing shows in Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and other great cities have *all* died in recent years, simply because framers didn't go. Las Vegas, New York and Atlanta are the only ones to survive.

Why is that? Why have framers let those other (previously successful) shows die? Has anything changed that would make the concept work now?

And what about the smaller regional shows? PPFA and others have tried that approach over the years. Some have done well, and some have not. Their organizers usually seem to be out on a limb.

Would major exhibitors support smaller shows? Historically they have not, saying the limited exposure of a small show does not justify the expenses of promotion, preparation, packing/shipping, setup/teardown, and staffing. I guess they think one big presence at one big show would cost less and bring more business than a series of smaller shows.

Framers, it's important to understand that exhibitors will go wherever necessary to get our attention and a shot at our business. No matter where a show is held; no matter how big or small, exhibitors of all stripes will support it if we do. And if we don't, then they won't. It's that simple.
 
JJ in NY is more expensive than it should be because of the mob tax. It has always been and will always be regardless of the periodic "clean ups" proclaimed by law enforcement publicity.

Thusly, the exhorbitant NY charges are largely dictated by this unfortunate situation and not normal market variables. If anyone doubts this just check out the NY Times index.
 
"A history lesson: Annual framing shows in Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and other great cities have *all* died in recent years, simply because framers didn't go. Las Vegas, New York and Atlanta are the only ones to survive." A great quote from Jim Miller

Jim, having exhibited at all of the Dallas shows and the Philly shows until they died, I can tell you why the framers stopped going and that is they had no reason to go. Every year I watched these two shows get smaller and smaller as less and less major manufacturers exhibited at the shows, not supporting the very people who kept them in business. Another reason people stopped attending these show is that they didn't have to. Sales reps would pass on any show specials or close-outs to their customers whether they attended the shows or not. So why bother to attend.

Another thing I think we have all forgotten is that "Frame O Rama" was also an excellent show for the international trade which helped add some excitement and energy to the show. It was also the show where all of the major manufacturers introduced any new line of products ie. "The Fletcher 2000", the "Seal VacuPress" etc. We exhibited at our first Atlanta show in 1987 with only one booth and handed out catalogs all day. It wasnt until 1995 the year before the Olympics in Atlanta that the show there really took off and started pulling people from Frame-O-Rama. Atlanta has become basically "The Show" with Decor Expo, New York becoming more of a regional show. I am not so sure that the Javits Center is the proper venue for a regional show. It may be time to look elsewhere in the region for a more accessible and less expensive place to exhibit or just eliminate the show all together. Have a great weekend everyone.
 
I'm with Peter! The costs of the shows are getting to be crazy. Just a reminder, the Chicago show was great when it was on the Pier but died when it went to Rosemount. I exhibted there the last year and it was a two day vendor meeting. I believe that the greatest value going for the framer is the Vegas show with an emphasis on education and an opportunity to talk to the manufacturer's and regional vendors. I think you could probably get by with Vegas in January, New York (Art Expo and Decor same weekend only please) in April and Atlanta in September. I would like to see Atlanta moved to the second weekend only because it gets dangerously close to cutting into the Minnesota duck opener.

We exhibited last year at Art Expo in the framing section. Small section and moderate attendance. We had a great show. Sold 5 Eclipses in our territory. Sold $0.00 of anything else. Did we go back this year even though space was offered for free? No. With the Decor show not being the same weekend we felt that the traffic would not justify the expense. I've talked to many of my vendors since New York. Some did both shows. Was it worth it with the split attendance.

NO.

John Richards
VP Sales and Marketing
TC Moulding

PS - we will see you in Atlanta and for you Mid-Westerners we will have our two day trade show April 13 - 14 in Troy MI and April 27-28 in Roseville MN. Hope to see you there.
 
Cornel (AKA Frame Harbor),

Nothing like putting me on the spot in front of millions of Framers. Well, maybe not millions.

Wizard, as a general rule, tries to support activities that increase industry exposure to the general public, or that supports framer education as it relates to technology use. Additionally, we earmark funds for industry support as part of our budget process, but typically we know how much we are going to spend for the entire year prior to setting the budget.

If you will give me an idea of the type and amount of support you need (dollars, venue, materials), I will seriously consider your request and do my best to support you.

I strongly support this type of forum, and in particular this specific forum. I (Wizard) don’t always benefit from everything said here, but believe it or not, I appreciate valid criticism (except as it relates to my waist line). I had a conversation with “Framer” in New York and you may soon see more substantial support of the Grumble from Wizard.

Thank you for allowing me to participate in this valuable exchange of ideas. :D
 
See new thread started on this subject.

Framerguy
 
"NOTHING LIKE PUTTING ME ON THE SPOT IN FRONT OF MILLIONS OF FRAMERS. WELL, MAYBE NOT MILLIONS."

Well, Edd, isn't this a part of being a leader in our industry? Wizard has accessed to this level of prominence. In support of what I just said, I mention that a couple of Wizard marks can be found to my remote Romanian manufactory too.

"IF YOU WILL GIVE ME AN IDEA OF THE TYPE AND AMOUNT OF SUPPORT YOU NEED (DOLLARS, VENUE, MATERIALS), I WILL SERIOUSLY CONSIDER YOUR REQUEST AND DO MY BEST TO SUPPORT YOU."

Though it may sound as if I have much to do with the above-mentioned contest, I am a simple supporter like you and hopefully a few others to come. I gladly record your genuine promise of support and thank you for it but other people are going to be in charge with organizing the contest and make good use of your support.
I strongly believe that many custom framers may unknowingly be a repository of new, possibly history making frame design expressions waiting to surface. In their approach of frame designing, molding manufacturers are conditioned by what is possible and profitable to machine out with their given technology. Framers are free of such design limitations and likely to think more than just vary the scale and paint same moldings in thousands of different shades.

“I STRONGLY SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF FORUM, AND IN PARTICULAR THIS SPECIFIC FORUM. I (WIZARD) DON’T ALWAYS BENEFIT FROM EVERYTHING SAID HERE, BUT BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I APPRECIATE VALID CRITICISM (EXCEPT AS IT RELATES TO MY WAIST LINE). I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH “FRAMER” IN NEW YORK AND YOU MAY SOON SEE MORE SUBSTANTIAL SUPPORT OF THE GRUMBLE FROM WIZARD.”

Edd, you are the real Wizard. I am not. And I like to say things the way I see them. I am so adamant about the frame design contest because I’d like to see true Grumblers do more with their given talents than just entertaining beginners over glass spot removing tips and other molecular framing topics. By your backing of the Grumbler’s design contest you prove that Wizard’s hinted support of the Grumbler is not just about getting a banner or helping “Framer” keep the show running, but emulating in depth framers’ education as well.

Mr. Edd Pratt, Framerguy is right, the current thread became excessively long and in real danger to be closed. I'll take my answer to the above-mentioned new thread
 
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