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United Inches or Combined Inches?

Discussion in 'Grumble Archive pre 2004 Topics' started by CYRO, May 6, 2002.

  1. CYRO

    CYRO Grumbler

    When glazing manufacturers refer to frame size,

    16" x 20" is 36 United Inches, but
    72 Combined Inches.

    What is the prefered method?
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  2. BUDDY

    BUDDY PFG, Picture Framing God

    Cyro ,Give us a little more information. Prefered BY whom and FOR what reason?It seems like your talking about priceing by some factor, UI or Sq.Inches are the two I'm familiar with.Most framing people I know prefer UI for priceing to tje customer but when buying wholesale the boes are sold by the number of lites that equal a persribed number of square inches per box.But I'm not sure that is what/why you're asking.
  3. CYRO

    CYRO Grumbler

    Prefered method by picture framers when refering to sizes when pricing. Acrylic is not usually sold in lite boxes, but by Sq. FT, but when my colleague referred to framing and talked about a 16" x 20", they said it was 72 UI. I believe it is 36 UI and 72 Combined Inches, but I do not know what is more commonly said.
  4. Dermot

    Dermot SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    Sorry I cannot resist this.

    United Centimetres

    Square Meters

    BTW I still use a combination of Metric and Imperial measurement.
  5. B. Newman

    B. Newman SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    This is the way I do it. 16x20 is 36 united inches multiplied times so much (.45, .75, $1.00 etc) for mat, or fitting, or stretching cross stitch, whatever that particular charge is.

    Frame is figured 16+16+20+20+? (depending on how wide the moulding is. ie, 16 if frame is 2" wide, 24 if frame is 3" wide, etc to allow for extra needed to cut total "outside" length.) Then divide by 12.

    16x20 2" wide would be 16+16+20+20+16=88/12=7.3 feet, which I round up to 7 1/2 feet.

    I have never used charts as this is the way I learned, and to me it's just quicker. I do have a chart for pricing items. Acrylic is by sq. ft, and glass is simply by size.

  6. Frank Larson

    Frank Larson CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    A 16x20 is 36UI. All published price lists (Larson Juhl, Victor, Jayeness, Etc) use this convention and all the frame shops that I have worked at or have ever been in have used this same convention. Where your friend got 72UI I have no idea. Maybe just a mistake? I have never crossed paths with anybody that used "combined inches".
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  7. Bogframe

    Bogframe SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    You have now, I use combined inches when I price out jobs for my clients. The method I use is just fast and easy that way.
  8. Ronny Terbeek

    Ronny Terbeek Grumbler

    Im sorry but i just have to say something here.
    shouldn't board,glass etc be sold and purchased
    using prices based on SQ ft or SQ meters.
    If you buy glass at a square ft/mtr price, and then re-sell it using a chart with UNITED inches or UNITED CENERMETERS then i have to say that you
    are probably making a huge pricing error,

    United inch or cm prices from a chart,spreadsheet or other software program.

    artwork = 21x49 which = 70 united inches or centimeters if you like..
    artwork = 29x41 which = 70 united inches or centimeters if you like..


    21x49 = 7.14 sq ft x say $ 3.oo sq ft = $ 21.42

    or the other size still the same united inches.

    29x41 = 8.26 sq ft x say $ 3.oo sq ft= $ 24.77

    $ 3.35 is the difference multiply by 7,000 framing jobs a year on average = $23,450

    What have you been using for your prices ?

    I hope this has got you thinking...

    You probably could have bought yourself something pretty nice for $23,450

    The REAL FRIGHT is
    The above example probably applies to about 5 out of 6 components
    that make up your framing costs and selling price.
    The above example only illustrates one item.

    Pleasant Dreams......
  9. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Six of one......half of a dozen of the other.

    It really doesn't matter as long as everyone is consistant. Glass by the way is sold in 50 square ft boxes. That is why you get more lites in a box of 8x10's (90) than in a 32x40 (6).
  10. HannaFate

    HannaFate SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Pricing is always a challenge, isn't it. Square inches vs united inches is interesting: a 10x10 piece is 100 square inches, 20 united inches. A 2x50 piece is also 100 square inches, but 52 united inches.

    But it goes on: A 10x10 piece of glass (or matting) can come out of an 11x14 lite, but a 2x50 piece must be cut from an oversize piece. (most shops special order anything over 48, some anything over 40, and I can't say I blame them) The extra hassle and waste has to be taken into account.

    When you have a price chart that goes by size, the labor on a 2x50 piece comes out a lot higher than a 10x10, even though it is only a little more work. Some shops use either united inches or overall size, whichever seems "more fair". Where I worked recently, we had a price chart with an extra column for narrow shapes. This allowed for a some lower charges on 12x36 pieces than on 24x36 for example.

    The truth is, it doesn't work to use the same method for every aspect of framing. I sell a 16x20 piece of fomebord as a quarter sheet, (which it is) and divide the price of a whole sheet to get the price. This is profitable and fair. It is also different from the shops down the street. All these differences make it hard for customers to price comparison shop, and they get frustrated.

    But, I don't see any way to standardize the process, short of all becoming Larson clones.
  11. CYRO

    CYRO Grumbler

    So referring to a 16" x 20" as 2.22 Sq. Ft. instead of 36 UI is more helpful for the industry?

    CYRO refers to everything in Sq. FT. for our customers, but I want to make sure this is user friendly for picture framers.
  12. B. Newman

    B. Newman SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    It is for me, if you're talking about acrylic, but not if you're talking about matbd, or frame moulding.

  13. Framerguy

    Framerguy PFG, Picture Framing God


    If you are doing 28 frames per day average, I'm movin' to Melbourne!

    But you are correct. If you buy by the sq. ft. you should sell based on sq. ft. measurement to be "politically correct".

    For most framers the difference is not that great but should be taken into consideration if one wants to fine tune their bottom line.

  14. rosetl

    rosetl CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I think the best to service the framing industry would be both -- 36 UI (2.2 square feet)----but why don't you just say 16x20 the same way you've been saying 48x96? I guess without knowing more precisely what you are referring to, it is hard to answer the question -- except to say the UI is very well known in the industry, while combined is a much less used term.

    It seems to me that most of the published suggested retail pricing charts are based on UI----whether that is smart, dumb, or just the more practical way to come up with a chart.

    Computer programs change the scene and pricing can be done in an assortment of ways, depending on program, etc.

    It may also becoming more common for framers to price by the lite (for glass) that it takes to produce the item.......which hasn't worked for acrylic due to the large sheet sizes.

    Before POS our shop priced regular acrylic by UI and the specialty acrylics by square foot---doing the math for each job (16 times 20 divided by 144 times cost per square foot).
  15. po' framer

    po' framer MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I agree that dimensions such as 16 x 20 is more helpful and immediately recognizable to a framer than is 2.2 square feet.

    Surely an interesting pricing issue brought up, though.
  16. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I think Hanna makes the best observation. That is for pricing, consider what it comes out of. Her example, while extreme, is perfect sense.

    Sq in can get you into trouble in these extremes, especially if you buy boxed glass.
  17. Andy

    Andy Grumbler in Training


    Ummmm.............yeah OK but lets look at this a little more.

    29 x 41 comes out of a 36 x 48 lite of glass, cost around $6 in the 2mm.

    21 x 49 however needs a 40 x 60, cost about $10 if you want to risk the 2mm, or around $20 if you go for the 2.5mm premium clear.

    Despite the square footage of the 29 x 41 piece being larger, the raw material cost is less.

  18. Lois Bauby

    Lois Bauby CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Either 16 X 20 = 36 UI or 16 X 20 = 72 Combined Inches is okay I think, so long as you don't say 16 X 20 is 72 United Inches. That was the problem.
  19. artwolf

    artwolf Grumbler in Training

    Why can I only buy CYRO Acrylic Sheets in 48"x96" sizes?
    Why not have it available in standard picture framing sizes, at least in 32"x40" sizes to make it easier to handle for the smaller shops.
  20. FrameMakers

    FrameMakers PFG, Picture Framing God

    I agree. I would like the option of maybe a 32x48 thats a third of a sheet, pack them 3 to a box.

    As to UI vs sq. inch. I wondered if a simpler system wold be of use. Maybe some thing like 32x40,24x32,16x20,12x16 (you can get one each of the smaller 3 size from a 32x40. Price all sheet goods based on which board it comes from not just the material that goes into the finished piece.
  21. Jazzbabies

    Jazzbabies Grumbler in Training

    We use square inches in all of our calculations. However, when figuring the number feet of moulding need to build a frame we use the following formula: (2x width) + (2x height)+ (8x width of the moulding)/12. So a 16x20" frame that is 2" wide would be 16x2 + 20x2 + 8x2 all divided by 12 or (72+16)/12 or 88/12 for 7.333 feet of moulding. We charge the customer for 9 or 10 feet of moulding depending on the actual length of a stick of moulding. The customer pays for the full length of a stick because, in most cases, we end up with a short piece of moulding that is worthless to us.
  22. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    This is an archive and a 2002 thread. Please start a thread in the main Grumble forum. :D
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