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WCAF SHOW report

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Rob Markoff, Jan 29, 2012.

  1. EllenAtHowards

    EllenAtHowards PFG, Picture Framing God

    Not that my opinion has any significance beyond being a single participant's voice, but a significant part of the attendees are from the Eastern Time Zone.

    I am not suggesting that the show open shortly after I awake at 3am the first day, but certainly earlier than 11am (2pm Eastern!) I don't think 9am-6pm would be horrible. Our store is open 9:30-6 every day, and no one seems to die of exhaustion...

    Just saying....
  2. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I have been doing a bit of a poll from those who were at the show. 9-5:30 wins hands down.

    Dave, just because the show opens at 9 doesn't mean that people can't sleep in if they want to. It's their choice and the vendors and attendees shouldn't have to give up their chance to do business for the few who would rather sleep. The people who have a huge vested interest in the show are the ones who own the companies that exhibit there. Employee's who are working in the booths should not dictate the hours. They are being paid to be there and their expenses are being paid by the companies they work for as well. Most of us who own our own companies go there to work and hopefully make some money, not to play.

    Ellen is absolutely right, the only ones who don't have a problem with the late start are those on the west coast. The rest of us are 2 and sometimes 3 hours ahead of the show hours. That certainly should be taken into consideration when setting the times for classes and the show.
  3. Rhonda in MT

    Rhonda in MT MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    We went in at 9 to meet with a vendor and there were a lot of employees in the tradeshow there already. Cleaning, vacuuming, and generally getting ready for the day. So to open earlier, those people would probably be there by 7. And Pat, I went by your booth several times and was never able to see a demo or even get up to the counter. I ordered what I wanted on the last day late in the afternoon. I wish you would have had someone just taking orders or another person doingsimple demos. I know that costs money but I would have really appreciated it. When I get my kits I hope I can figure things out from the DVDs.
  4. Smile with Style

    Smile with Style CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Balancing Act...

    It's tough to balance all aspects of this event: tradeshow, education, meetings, and social events while ensuring efficient use of a rented facility.

    I agree that an extra hour for the tradeshow floor hours wouldn't be painful, however, I don't know if more people would be on the floor because of it? Many people took back-to-back classes due to the large volume of classes and great selection offered. Hours for the tradeshow this year were: 11-6, 11-6 and 10-4. Starting each day at 10 am would be consistent and provide an extra hour for the first two days.

    However, education for those same days ran 9-6, 9-7 and 9 12:30. The 9 am classes generally ran until 11 am or later. If you had a morning class, you still wouldn't be able to get on the tradeshow floor until after 11 am. Of course, not everyone would take a morning class on all three days? Did they? :confused:
  5. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    My husband was there the entire time just writing orders. He worked as hard as I did. I'm not sure who I could hire to do simple demo's becuse most come to see me in person and watch my demonstrations in person. It is the very reason I have 4 and a half hours of demonstrations on my DVD's. You can take me home with you. And if you don't understand something or have a question, I am always available by phone. Call me any time. I still say it would help to have an extra hour or two show time the first and second days of the show.
  6. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God


    Please explain to me how extending the show hours would benefit someone who comes to your packed, understaffed booth when it is convenient for them (between classes) or when they have determined it is the best time for them to come?

    Are you saying that they should come back when your booth is less crowded.......which, based on the fact that (statistically, year after year) your booth is ALWAYS crowded, would be when? Is it possible that if the show hours were extended, you would have a packed, crowded understaffed booth, for a longer period of time?

    If I had a frameshop and more people came around lunchtime or between 5-6 PM and those were the busiest hours......I don't think I would let my staff go to lunch between 12 and 1 or tell my customers that I am now opening at 9 AM instead of 10 or staying open until 7..........for their convenience........

    I just don't get how people not being able to write up an order at your booth or see a demo because your booth is understaffed is someone else's (show management's) problem....
  7. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

  8. MaJa

    MaJa SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    In an attempt to get this thread back on track ...

    I'd love to spend more time and go into more details, but I feel like I need to do a million things all at once!

    What a great show!! AJ and I very much enjoyed our time with our Grumble friends and made some new ones, too.

    Taxi: No problems with the taxi on the way to Harrah's. I was surprised that they did not take credit cards. We took the shuttle back and liked it much better. We will be doing this in the future!

    Hotel: We stayed at Harrah's and loved it. The room looked and smelled very clean (no I did not use a black light, lol). The bed and pillows were super comfortable. The casino did not seem smokier then the Mirage to me. It was a 15 minute walk to the show from our room. The Mirage was way "cooler", but I like the big size of our bathroom. And, well, I'm cheap. We saved about $500 staying across the street.

    Food: Yes, exspensive. I was surprised with the lack of gluten free choice (and knowledge). But I always "pack a lunch", I travel with food because I never know if I will be able to find anything I can eat. Chipotle across the street was awesome. AND Mon Ami Gabi at Paris was everything the food in the rest of Vegas was not! Super service, choices, food, and prices. They even ran over and folded your napkin if you left the table.

    Show: Wow, that's all I can say. It seemed to me that there were an awful lot of people there, but less vendors. I can not think of any vendors missing, but it just seemed like their were less of them. Paul MacFarland pointed out that several companies have merged and maybe that's why there were less? I DID NOT leave enough floor time. This was my fault. I took less classes then last year, but still too many. Please remind me NOT to leave Wednesday as my floor day. I was brain dead and missed so much. I walked up to vendors that were on my "list" and said, "I wanted to ask you about something, but I have no idea what it is." Yup, that was effective.

    Show Hours: More hours when there are no classes would be the only way to help people like me that are addicted to learning, lol. I think all my classes started at 8am or 9am. Take less classes Mary! but it is SO hard, there were so many good classes and I wish I could have taken all of them.

    Classes: I heard lots of good things about almost all the classes here is what we took ...

    • Mary: Giclees: Capture to Finish - Wonderful!! I daubed it the most expensive free class you will ever take, lol. Lots of goodies to drool over. I've been printing for over 10 years and have taken at least a thousand dollars of PhotoShop classes. I can home and used one of the trick from the class first thing! Nice, worth the cost of the trip.
    • AJ and Mary: Framing Works of Art on Canvas - We love Paul's classes. He is entertaining and very knowledgeable. AJ stayed and did the workshop.
    • Mary: Framing the Future Panel - Some good information. The discussion did stall a little in the present, but who really knows where the future will take us anyway.
    • Mary & AJ: PPFA Welcome - Holey people Batman! It was packed! Some neat things in there (like Mat Shimmers), lots of swag, and we got to meet Brian from PhotoWonder in person. If you have not used the UltraLite Cleaner, I recommend it. We have been using for a while and give the little kits to our customers. They LOVE them.

    • Mary: Goltz Pricing - This may very well change my life.
    • AJ: Strip Lining (w/Rob) - We haven't talked much, but he was pretty excited when he walked out of the class, so I am guessing he learned some new tricks.
    • AJ & Mary: LJ Black & White - I was a little disappointed. Last years event was much better, but we did get to meet the new boss. It was fun getting our photos taken, too.
    • Mary: Kirstie's E-Newsletter Class - So well organized and presented. Wonderful information and the push I need to get a newsletter up and running (hopefully, lol).

    • AJ & Mary: Selling to Corporate - Rob and Barb put together a class jam packed with great info! Can't wait to get my book.
    • Mary: Increase your Average Ticket by 20% - Great ideas. I've got to get my notes out and reread them. Not sure I get 20%, but every little bit helps.
    • AJ: Mounting Float Frames and Hardboards - He left this at the break. It was too beginner for him.
    • Mary: Misconceptions and Missed Opportunities - Another on of Jay Goltz's classes. I think I could have skipped this one since there was overlap with the pricing class, but there was also some good new information, too.
    • AJ & Mary: Painted Mats - With Brian from Wizard and there were manual mat cutters, lol. I had to have some help, it;s been 5 years since I used one of those. Great ideas, beautiful results with minimal effort.

    • Mary: Successful Retailing panel - I really enjoyed this. It was nice to "meet" the people on the panel that I did not already know. Opened my eyes to some new ideas.
    • AJ: Installation Hardware - AJ said this was the BEST part of the whole show. He really, really enjoyed the class, but felt it needed to be an all day class. And he brought home a 5lb bag of samples. Really, I weighed it.

    We had a great time and learned much. I wish we could have taken more classes, spent more time on the show floor, and had more fun with our Grumbing friends. But, I always want more, lol. Feel free to ask me any questions you might have!
  9. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Oops. I guess that's why it was so quiet Tuesday morning. I thought it started at 10 on Tuesday and Wednesday...
  10. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Rob, I am not complaining about the show. It was the best show all of us have had in a very long time and was great in every way. My hats off to the Gherman's.

    You don't get it because you are an educator not a vendor. You are paid to be there. What I don't get is why you are so hostile about something that doesn't affect you? When both the attendee's and vendors are saying the show should have been started earlier, why shouldn't it be taken into consideration? Extending the hours maybe would not have helped the problem we had with crowd control, but it sure wouldn't have hurt, and I'm not blaming management for anything. Ellen also has a valid point about the time change for many of the people who come from the Midwest and East Coast.

    Why do you think my booth is always so packed? and do you really think I should staff it with people who don't know a fig about mounting 3D art? Pray tell Rob, how am I supposed to figure out and hire someone to be in my booth to help during crowed times? My booth was packed the whole time. I don't have a staff of employees like you, who know the product or my methods that I can turn to for help once a year for this show. And who would you suppose I should hire, pay their expenses and wages, and try to teach in a couple of hours how to demo my methods? At every show I have new methods for attaching 3D art. Methods only I know, and it takes me hours to prepare for it. I also can't help it that people schedule so many classes that they are running the show floor in 5-10 min. sessions. Those same people will come to my booth and get angry because I am not showing what they want to see at the time they want to see it.

    At this show I took a total of 15 min's. in breaks in the 3 days. Just one 5 min. break each day. Paul, my booth assistant was the same. It isn't because I want a pat on the back for hard work, it's because I didn't want to disappoint attendees by not being there when they came to see me demonstrate.

    We have tried sponsoring classes at the show with educators who are speaking on my behalf, but it didn't work well because the educators do things their way. It becomes very confusing to the framers when my DVD's shows one way and the educators tell them something different. It was more trouble than it was worth. You guys do a great job in your area of expertise. Mounting 3D art is mine, and no one can show my methods as well as I can.

    Every year I am asked by the attendees why I am not on the class schedule and my answer is always the same; "I have no idea". I have asked to be put on the class schedule but have been turned down with the answer of " we will keep it in mind for next year". Then when next year comes ...... same thing.
  11. j Paul

    j Paul PFG, Picture Framing God

    Over Head Projection Screen

    Pat, I wasn't at the show this year so I don't know what you did, but here is an idea. What if you had a video camera set up with a large screen higher and behind you so that those who can't get close enough to you will also be able to see and here the demonstrations. You might have to have a person working the camera, but most likely they can be hired/trained for that event. I know it all adds to the cost, but just an idea.
  12. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    That is a good idea, but there comes a time when you reach the point of diminishing return. I am just one person who owns a small company that is trying to stay in business. The expense of something like that would probably cost more than the booth.
  13. FrameMakers

    FrameMakers PFG, Picture Framing God

    Pat, the hostilities are from your endless posts that have taken this thread way off topic. Posting that you would have liked different hours is fine, but it is time to drop it.
  14. Rhonda in MT

    Rhonda in MT MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Pat, My comments were not meant to be critical, just my experience. Valiana had free demos on the class schedule from 9-11 Monday and tuesday. Maybe you could do something like that where your prospective clients could sign up in advance.

    Onward to our show experience. Loved the venue. We stayed are Harrahs to save money. I doubt it took us much longer to walk over in the morning than it did the people that stayed at The Mirage. Because we were seriously shopping to replace our frame shop, I didn't get to take all the classes I wanted but was able to get in Goltz's pricing. The formula is intriguing and I'm going to try to implement it soon. I always want to take the Markoffs classes because you get 2 for 1. I took the Thinking outside the frame for inspiration. We are doing a fair amount of dye sub printing and I was looking for display ideas and really got some good info there.
    The 21 ideas by John Ranes is the kick in the pants we need to brighten up the store and get more business by diversifying.

    I took the class on customer psychology. Very interesting and all this time I thought I was a pleaser but it seems I'm a controller. I mentioned this to one of my employees when we got back and she laughed. Hmm? So I'll be sharing those techniques with the staff to see if we can have a leg up on the design process.

    The PPFA lunch was not as nice as the last one we attended 4 years ago, and they ran out of food and drink.. It seemed the thank yous took forever. I don't know if there was a speaker because after an hour of acknowlegements to board members etc we left. I would have liked more time to chat with our tablemates. $30 for sandwiches, pasta and a cookie seemed a little excessive.

    We had some awesome burgers at KBG in Harrahs. But very huge. Next time we will order one and split it. They also had a good Caesar salad we had for a late lunch with fried polenta cubes as the crutons. And it was fairly quiet in there.

    We missed the Sunday dinner because we were at the wrong dolphins. Rats. And we didn't sign up for the Chinese dinner because we weren't sure we were even going to Vegas due to the fire. Next year for sure.

    I'm already looking forward to next year and taking more classes less shopping.
    A hint for those short on cash. Check out your local unemployment office, they may have a program to pay for training and travel if it will help in retaining workers, including you.
  15. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Wow. This has really become a useless thread for those that don't want to waffle through the B.S.

    Here is a recap

    People shared
    Some said there wasn't stuff
    Some raved
    Classes are well liked
    Some people shared good information
    a vendor chimed in with a suggestion (that seems to be mirrored by some)
    an educator piped up and somewhat knocked that vendor (G police I suppose)
    that vendor had to speak up for themselves a bit or risk looking like they were whining when they were expressing an opinion that is likely shared by quite a few vendors (after all, whom among us that want to be successful wouldn't want more time to sell to their clients, especially when their clients are the ones doing some of the complaining)
    the educator knocked the vendor
    Maja gave a good review
    the vendor still had to defend themselves
    Jpaul gave a good suggestion (seriously Pat, think along the lines of a microphone and a big mirror like cooking demonstrations at trade shows have and ask the organizers to put you somewhere that the mic wouldn't disrupt others. Sounds like a good suggestion to me that would solve some of the issues and then place the person taking orders outside the booth so that the folks who are buying get out of the way of those that are looking for demos)
    and end scene.

    Did I miss anything?

    Now, let's all quit rolling in the mud for whatever reason we felt we needed to and go back to helping this thread share the show with folks.

  16. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I think Pat should do a class! 3 classes!!! That would be amazing. I would definately take one!!
    Would that help alieviate the craziness at the booth?

    I love walking around the show and seeing the new and great products.

    Was there more art dealers this year?

    How about Dennis Mathewson? What did you think of his new art line?? :popc:
  17. osgood

    osgood SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Isn't that what Pat does all day, every day of the show at her booth - classes???
    What would be the point of doing exactly the same thing in a room?
  18. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The point is ......... people would pay her..... she could control it.
    EVERYONE can talk to her and ask her questions....... HANDS ON demo.
    And she might actually get to take a break for once!!!! And then she could had out
    a sheet at the end and people could buy whatever they want.
  19. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    That option is available to Pat, and always has been. I guess a lot of framers would attend.

    Hers would be what is known as a "company class". Like Wizard, Lifesaver and all the other companies that organize dedicated classes to train their customers and promote their products, she would have to pay the established price for registration services, listing in the published schedule guides, promos in PFM and email blasts, and the use of a classroom. It isn't cheap to present a company class.
  20. MaJa

    MaJa SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Oh, man! I am so sorry. It was a little confusing. It was a challenge since we hadn't been there before. We will all do so much better next year.
  21. Riverwood

    Riverwood CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Almost all of the trade shows I have attended ran 9:00 - 6:00. Most closed a little earlier the last day to give people time to pack up.
    I think the ACC shows open at 10:00.

    but 11:00......wow that is really lame. Just my humble opinion :)
  22. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    IF one were to do a "company sponsored" class - based on this year's rate - @ 47 attendees at $65 per ticket, the vendor would be ahead of the game.

    Most vendors offer the classes for "free" with a $20 "no-show" fee to keep registrants committed to showing up.

    I am not sure there is a "rule" that one could not charge for a company sponsored class.

    There is also no rule that at a company sponsored class that kits/products could not be sold - or "included in the cost of the class" such as a DVD or something else.

    For Barbara's Corporate Class, a copy of her book was included in the ticket fee. "Value added" :)

    I am sure we will soon hear some excuse from some vendor as to how a they can't possibly be expected to sponsor and teach a class and also staff his/her booth when they are the ONLY one who can properly demo their product or afford to pay for extra help to staff their booth while they are teaching the class, or afford to have a large flatscreen monitor playing their already produced DVD etc. Plus, teaching a class is exhausting and how could they possibly do that and work the booth if they extended the trade show hours. :)
  23. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Really Rob?:shrug: This response is going to accomplish a lot of good I'm sure.
  24. matboard guy

    matboard guy Grumbler in Training

    Did anyone else get a chance to see the new Bainbridge solid color Alpha boards? Looks like a nice alternative to Rag with cotton prices so high...
  25. Framar

    Framar SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I just received a set of samples of the Alpha Essentials solids. Sweet. Sumptuous. Love them!
  26. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God


    Here's my rant and then I am done.

    You refer to me as an "educator." Let me be perfectly clear - I am a businessman who makes his living selling art and framing and I have done so for over 40 years. My focus is on running a successful business and as times have changed, so has the focus of my business. I continuously look at ways of improving our product mix and the services we offer.

    Some feel that I have the ability to effectively communicate what skills I have learned and have offered me the opportunity to share that knowledge with others. Many would agree that I do so freely and willingly and some have told me both privately and in public forums that they have benefitted from what I have shared with/taught them.

    I have been both an exhibitor and an attendee at many venues including many outside the art/framing industry. Some would say that I am a trade show junkie. :)

    Because I have had the privilege of teaching for DECOR Magazine at their trade shows, for the PPFA at their conventions, for PFM at the WCAF, and for manufacturers and distributors across the US and Canada and Australia, and having been on the advisory committee for our Trade Association, I feel I have a qualified perspective to be able to offer/render advice on what would improve an individual's experience as an attendee or an exhibitor.

    My argument is not with any particular vendor - but with anyone - vendor, framer, or other businessperson who fails to accept personal responsibility for their own self-limitations or their unwillingness to see "the big picture" and do the right thing when it comes to their own success.

    Lest there be no mistake, I think that Pat is a visionary and deserves kudos for finding, adapting and distributing products from other industries and making them available to our industry. I use Attach EZ and the Fix and Fill, and the Pigment Pens, and the threads and other methods of attachment that Pat sells (and I have no affiliation with her company :)).

    I do, however, find it peculiar that with the hundreds (thousands?) of framers who have purchased and use her products every day, she would state in a forum of her peers, words to the effect that SHE is the only one who could possibly demonstrate the proper use of them or that it is not possible to develop a more efficient ordering system/form or hire temporary help to expedite the ability to take orders at her always crowded booth.
  27. Randy Jordan

    Randy Jordan MGF, Master Grumble Framer


    This was only the second show I have attended and I must say I enjoyed the expierence and would suggest anyone who is a framer or in the framing industry make plans to attend the show next year. I loved it all! But, the classes were too short, the information more than my feeble brain could absorb that quickly, the trade show hours weren't long enough either, my suggestion would be to have a full week of classes and then the next week would be for the trade show. Yes, (I'm kidding) I hate to see 2 very talented and professional people taking pots shots at one another, when they are both trying to improve the whole aspect of the WCAF/ PPFA show. I'm not sure how it might be resolved, but with so many minds, working together, I'm sure that a solution will be reached. If I can attend next year, I plan on staying at Harrah's and eating other places. Although the venue was awsome. Just wish I could take more classes and cruise the floor more, but at my age that's like wishing I were 20 again. It was, after all, a great expierence. The instructors all shared a WEALTH of knowledge (wish I could retain 2% of it!) and the vendors were as a whole, adept displaying thier products. I do think Rob's suggestion about company sponsored classes would be tremenous, but I also like Pat's suggestion of opening the show a little earlier. Randy J.
  28. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Very good then. Thanks for summing it up nicely so we can move along and hopefully many of us can now continue to get more out of this thread.
  29. Pat Kotnour

    Pat Kotnour SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Rob, this was totally out of line. I didn't start it, but I'm going to finish it.

    My statement was:
    We have tried sponsoring classes at the show with educators who are speaking on my behalf, but it didn't work well because the educators do things their way. It becomes very confusing to the framers when my DVD's shows one way and the educators tell them something different. It was more trouble than it was worth. You guys do a great job in your area of expertise. Mounting 3D art is mine, and no one can show my methods as well as I can.

    What part of this statement isn't true, or should anyone be offended by? There IS no one who can demonstrate my methods better than I can. I invented them for heaven sake. My methods are the product. Can you demonstrate for me or anyone else my new sewless or fastenless method for attaching jersey's and T's or my new method for mounting books, cups and saucers, boxing gloves and the shells Cliff mentioned on an earlier post. Most people come to my booth to see what's new because there always is something new. Or they come to see me because they are looking for easier ways to do labor intensive jobs and they heard about me from another framer. I'm not going to pay thousands of dollars so I can sponsor myself in a class and then make people pay me for what they can see at my booth for free. Why would I want to do that?

    Just for the record, my past experience is that tempory help is no help, and they create more problems because they have to keep asking ME questions while I'm trying to demonstrate. Give me a break!

    Now, please let this thread go back to what a great show it was. Because it was!
  30. Rob Markoff

    Rob Markoff PFG, Picture Framing God

    No Pat, those people are disappointed that you don't have enough manpower at your booth and that you don't have a better way for the throngs who come to see you demonstrate actually SEE your demonstration.

    Sounds like a river in Egypt.....de Nile.......there are MANY resourceful ways for you to get more help in your booth and to find experienced framers who love your product and would be willing to assist you.....perhaps for product or for the thrill of working beside you. If Paul can't keep up with the demand to write orders, you need more help.

    I call Bravo Sierra on your attempt to sponsor classes. Name one WCAF class you sponsored and name one educator who used your products in a way that differed than you expected.

    From personal experience, you graciously donated a kit to the PPFA for the "what's new" class - nothing was "demonstrated" other than to tell people that your product was available and pass it around a packed room of very interested framers. (And there was no "cost" to you to have your product featured.) Many vendors generously donated materials to the class for the same recognition , including Kinetronics who gave an ionizer worth over $600. My recollection is that in another thread you accused the PPFA of stealing your kit........

    Have you ever attempted to sponsor YOURSELF in a company class where you are the instructor and YOU control the content? Oh yeah, I forgot that you can't do that because there would be no one in your booth..........(even though in the past the show doesn't start until 11 AM on Monday and the classes start on Sunday)......

    GUMBY GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    somebody needs to take a couple days offfffffffffff
  32. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I was not going to say anything but after all of this childish bickering going on it is time to have someone say that this has gone way to far. This is an open forum, do either Rob or Pat think that this is appropriate conduct to show to the public. OUR, not only yours, customers read this. Get over it or take it to the Warped - why should you 2 take it upon yourselves to make the framing community look like children. I couldn't make it to the show because of a medical crisis, I don't want to listen to the two of you bickering, I want to hear what happened at the show. Pat, your problem is with the people that put on the show not with Rob. Rob, you should be man enough to back off and let Pat rant if she wants. Get over it and lets get this Thread back to what is meaningful instead of this childish behavior.
  33. mbboston

    mbboston CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Pat, it sounds to me you are comfortable where you are at and not willing to invest in growing your busyness. Temporary help could do a good job if they where well trained.

    This is again the result of your time investment. It would be up to you to teach educators how to present your products correctly. People present all kinds of complicated stuff they didn't innovate all the time. Often, presenters do much better job explaining products then inventors themselves.

    This brings me to a very important question : How complicated is it to learn your products and techniques? If educators didn't do a good job, how would the rest of us figure out what to do or do it the right way? From what you wrote, there is a learning curve and no one can do it but you. Is it so difficult or it is a matter of education?

    I am one of those who would love to take a class, take notes and ask questions. I have no problem paying for the knowledge. Due to so many great classes and large exhibition floor our time was limited. We wanted to see it all. For me this was not exactly great time to stand in the crowd and learn new techniques. When you learn in trade show environment with so many distractions it is easy to miss things.

    Back to the show

    The show exceeded my expectations: outstanding variety of excellent classes, large show floor and many new friendships. If there is one thing I would like to see improve next year would be more closed corner frame makers. I know we can't make them participate, but perhaps we could think about the ways to make it more attractive for them.
  34. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Quoting myself Cuz it got buried!!!!!!! :D
  35. Keith L Hewitt

    Keith L Hewitt SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Well said - this spat is not for public consumption!

    For heavens sake - pick up the phone and discuss in private.

    This Forum is precious - dont spoil it.

    We have had too many open spats :smileyshot22: on The Framers Forum www.theframersforum.com and its had a left us worse off. Dont let it happen on TG Here are the UK rules
    Forum Rules

    1. Be nice.
    2. If you can't be nice, see rule 1.

    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  36. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    It isn't childish to call misleading remarks into question. The readers here deserve a correct understanding, and I'm sure Rob's critique was well intended.

    Yes, Pat's perennial problem seems to be with the organizers of the show. She has voiced the same complaint year after year, but apparently the majority of exhibitors and attendees do not agree with her. If they did, then the hours presumably would change. WCAF organizers produce our industry's most successful trade show. Defying the majority would not contribute to its success.

    Pat somehow translates her dissatisfaction to the educators in the classrooms, most of whom routinely use and endorse her products and at least some of her methods. She seems to resent them and perceive them as competitors, but as Rob pointed out, most of them actually recommend Attach-EZ.

    Other than Pat, everyone seems to have been pleased with the outcome. Yes, it was a very good show. Many of us are looking forward to next year.
  37. Pat Murphey

    Pat Murphey SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Geez! Jim (and Rob), all she did was suggest that it would nice if the floor hours were longer. Enough. :p
  38. HB

    HB SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    No body sleeps in Vegas
  39. MaJa

    MaJa SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Dennis Matthews WAS there and working on a nifty painting. I personally did not get to meet him as we buzzed into the booth on Wednesday as we were making our mad dash around the show floor. His art was there, too. Didn't take a good look at it, but it is impressive. You do need the right crowd for it. I picked up a catalog. Give them a call, I bet they'd drop them in the mail. We ordered a starter set of the corner samples! And Koa, we get a lot of requests for that.
  40. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    OK so I give up, Who is Dennis Matthews??
  41. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

  42. HB

    HB SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    FWIW I recall that every time I walked the floor and wanted to see Pat's booth - it was too crowded to hang around. Even when I came back. So I know little of her products. And before someone says to check it out on the web page, I'll say that I think I know enough about her products not to take the extra effort to visit her page (if she has one)! Am I wrong? Maybe? And how many others think like me in this regard? If Pat wants to increase awareness & sales for her products - she needs to make some changes. Either longer floor hours (which apparently she tried without success), or having a larger booth, which allows for demos, or put on a class on specialized mounting. To say that one can't (or won't) have someone else teach their products ONLY INDICATES that the use of their products is too complicated for anyone other than the owner, OR that the owner of the product is too inept or irresponsible to train others to teach their product. Short of severe labour shortages, any business owner that blames lack of staff for poor sales or exposure , needs to be educated that it is only due to lack of commitment. I hope Pat is successful in adding more hours to the trade show, however I hope she also makes an effort to train others to sell her products.
  43. HB

    HB SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

  44. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Ok seriously kids........ start a new thread..........
  45. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't use the Attacheez, because I prefer other methods, etc. I've seen it, used it, get it, see the value and it's place, but still choose not to use it. I am going to defend the attacks on her product and preferences regarding presentation though because I think that a few folks here have popped off in a very pompous manner and could potentially do damage to her and the business because of their shortsightedness and personal interests. And before anyone tries to defend themselves or flame me for that statement, take a very close look at your motivations before feigning ignorance.

    Now, Pat's the inventor of the product. She has more cycles with the product than anyone on the planet. The WCAF is her biggest opportunity to be in front of her customers and her potential customers. To equate it, this is the equivalent of one of you preferring to do the design for a big corporate client or a fantastic retail client. Not that others couldn't be taught to do it, but can they always be taught to do it exactly the way that Pat (or you at your own business) can? Most likely not. So she chooses to give the demonstrations herself so that she can answer any and all questions that come up with her expertise.

    Not that the product is too difficult to learn. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Not that the product is too complicated for others to learn. It's not. She just is the business and therefore wants to be the face. There were some good suggestions in this thread that I hope she continues to consider for future benefit.

    For Rob and Jim, I don't get that she is slamming the show. The start time is ridiculous. Many in this thread alone have commented on that in addition to others that were congregated in the rotunda and hallway outside the WCAF doors each morning. Those of you that have a voice may want to pass that along. Or don't. But don't blame someone (anyone) for expressing their opinions.

    Sheesh, I often wonder if some of the folks on this site had their parents or significant others read their posts.... how proud would they be when some come off as pretentious pr***s at times. (keep in mind, this might not apply to you specifically. Apply as needed. YMMV!)
  46. pwalters

    pwalters SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Or drop it. Either way, this one is on life support.
  47. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

  48. blackiris

    blackiris SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    :D :D Your getting his mouldings now right?? :D :D
  49. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Absolutely - my original investment for the corner samples was a little more than I wanted to spend but I've got them a little over a year ago and get a lot of comments, just not to many sales, Oh darn! I just don't have the right type of customers for most of that line.
  50. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Just my own personal observation, but this thread has taken on the the aroma of a pimps and hustlers convention. That aside, it should be noted that nothing draws a crowd like a crowded booth. I would imagine it's what every vendor dreams of.
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