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Question What about educational videos for framers?

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by Jim Miller, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    We used to have plenty of educational classes at PPFA meetings, supplier open-house events, and major trade shows. Very few of those opportunities still exist. If you want to analyze the reasons for that, go ahead, but time marches on.

    So, what is the future of education in picture framing? Online video education may be a good answer, but at this point, few experienced educators have such expertise. Some are willing to give it a good try, but considering the dearth of profit in framing education all along, is it worth the effort? Significant up-front cost is required and, since there is no history, there is little assurance of cost recovery, let alone profit in the effort.

    Do you think this should progress? If so, what are your suggestions for subject matter, marketing, and pricing?

    Another concern is piracy. Some years ago, when our industry's most popular educator made a ground-breaking series of videos on DVDs, it was a losing proposition due to unauthorized reproduction and sharing among framers. Many enjoyed the education, but few paid for it. So now, is online piracy a concern?

    In addition to video education for framers, another possibility is to produce videos for consumer education. Some of you may have seen "Why doesn't UV filtering stop fading?", which has been well received. Several framers already have had me customize it with their company logo and background images, so they can post in on their web sites and play it for their customers.

    In another thread, Shayla asked about my Platform Mount video. It has not yet been released, only because I have not yet found a way to be compensated for its considerable cost. One or more corporate sponsors would be great, but the value of sponsorship is not yet clear to them.

    Any suggestions?
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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  2. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I'm not conversant in the available technology, but is there a way to have the videos stored "in the cloud" and sell one-time access to them?
    :cool: Rick
    ckelley and Jim Miller like this.
  3. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    What about creating an app for for framing education. Something along the line of the book store. Videos and guides get uploaded then have a cost to download or watch online only. Some could be free or $1 some could be $20.
    Or consider selling rights to the education videos and materials to suppliers who may resell them or distribute as they like. Doesn't the PFM charge for past articles as well.

    Thinkific is a good place to sell courses. Students get log in and do the courses in their own time and come back to them anytime.

    We currently have our Getting setup guide on their as you can structure the videos in order you want them played. It works very well.
    ckelley and Jim Miller like this.
  4. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Maybe a YouTube channel where advertisers pay per view.
    Have a long list of industry links so they would pay.
    Some of your classes could be broken up into multiple videos each 10 minutes long.

    Maybe a single channel could be shared with multiple educators in a co-op arrangement to make it place where people subscribed and because a go-to place for problem solving or education.

    I go to you tube for Auto, woodworking and household repair advice. Sometimes I have watch the sma evideo a couple of times.

    There are some exceptions but over all our industry is very old school so you might have to explain what a computer is, what google is, how the internet works etc.......:)
  5. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

  6. David Hewitt

    David Hewitt CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I am a big fan of DVD education. I have many of Vivian's educational series, have old VHS, (DVD not offered), of how to water and oil gild from Reeds Gold Leaf, and many other videos, and probably most of the books ever offered on art and framing subjects. My hobby is courses from The Great Courses, I have dozens, many to do with the arts. (Just threw away a complete set of home improvement videos. All VHS again, and all subjects now on YouTube)
    Anyway I love this form of education, because I can reference it at my convenience, pause it, play it back, whatever.
    I have also thought of sharing knowledge in this fashion, but the fact is so much of anything is on YouTube at no cost. This is fine, I use YouTube almost every day, but is that information verified, and by who and by what standards, is important?
    Mr. Miller's thoughts of costs on such a venture is very valid. Compensation of a venture like this would be a necessity. Back to the Great Courses, in the past year they have offered knowledge in trades and hobbies. They call classes like these Better Living. The reason for their success in the Better Living series is that the market is huge.
    The industry of professional picture framers is small in comparison. Just look at the products that have gone away in our industry. Vivian's educational series did not carry on, Decor Magazine gone, United, Pistorious to name a few, our industry is not large enough for them to prevail. Sad but true.
    So my question is , similar to Jim Miller's, is what are your thoughts?
  7. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    It all goes back to economics. The market is too small and the cost of class preparation and production costs are high.
    With the assumption of 500-1,000 subscribers at $35 per each video in a series. There is not much wiggle room.
    So do you want the video to a professional production or a one camera shoot with no close-ups of what needs to be seen by the student?

    Producing an educational video series involving several educators with specialized areas of expertise.
    • instructor(s) prep and filming time - 2-3 days per video
    • cost of materials used and prepared for the video
    • a professional or semi-professional "set" for making the video with proper lighting and sound equipment
    • a professional video person(s) - filming
    • a professional video person(s) - post-production time
    • instructor or another person(s) review of the finished product and possible re-editing
    • travel to a central location for consistent filming production
    • cost of distribution
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  8. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    You raise an essential point. Most of the YouTube videos on framing topics have been created by people who do not know much about framing, and a lot of the advice amounts to ill-informed opinions, especially in matters of preservation.

    So, if video education is to be offered to framers professionally, how could the quality of the content be assessed and graded? In the past, framing education was organized by PPFA, Decor, PFM, and others qualified to judge the content. Classes were created and presented by educated, experienced, reputable framers in framing-related venues. That is, framing education has seldom been questioned, because it has been offered responsibly.

    Video education is a whole new world. Is responsibility required?
  9. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    So true. There is a lot of videos out there that spout not only incorrect but harmful information. All in the guise of being an alleged authority.
  10. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    The good news is that it's easier than ever thanks to non-linear editing and the advent of digital video. However, there is a lot that goes into making a professional quality video. You need an idea, a script, talent, lighting, proper mics and good sound (critical) and music. You also need at least one camera, but two or three is better. Cameras are the easy part, really. It also help to invest in a teleprompter, as seen in a photo below, which was a great investment.

    Then, you need to package it, market it and hope you turn a profit. Yes, you can do, but the audience size is so small in our industry that if you really want to be a producer, you're probably better off find a different target market.

    FYI, I've produced three DVD, including a feature length two DVD set. Two additional DVDs were shot in front of a green screen the basement of my home, on top of my pool table. The background was taken from still photos of one of my store and chromakeyed in. If anyone has technical questions on how to do it, I'll be happy to help, but realize that it takes a big commitment. And you have3 to give up playing pool for a while. :)

    Here's a sample from an early edit of the end result shot in the studio shown below in 2011:

  11. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I am not a video education fan. Live classes, especially hands on classes work because the instructor is there to help you if you do something wrong. With a video you are flying by the seat of your pants and if you have a problem the video will not help you make the necessary corrections.
  12. graysalchemy

    graysalchemy CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Plenty on Facebook and forums as well.

    With regards to cost of videos I think that production costs have dropped considerably with cheaper equipment and an increase in the market for video production. I think the problem is simply most of the educators don't want too and don't have the inclination to learn the skill set required to produce videos. It's not impossible educators in every other creative subject seem to manage to do it.

    However if they don't move with the times they won't be educating anyone as the number of seminars and classes decrease. I don't think we have any now here in the UK.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  13. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I'm sure all of that is true. I've already made the investment in everything needed for the studio and software for editing/production. Music is no big deal, as many suitable tunes are available for free download. The cost was considerable, but not prohibitive.

    In my direct experience, labor is the main cost. Composing the script, creating/acquiring drawings & photos, actually recording the video footage, editing it and creating a finished production takes at least 3-5 hours per minute of final video time. Perhaps professional video editors could work more quickly, but their cost is still more than we could recover in a reasonable time.

    Maybe you are correct about the majority, but some of us are very interested in creating video education, already started, and actively seeking funding. How far will it go? Who knows?

    Right now I (and others) need to define the market and its potential, which is the purpose of this thread.
  14. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I think the future is in online video education. I have posted Jim's video in my Facebook group for framers. It's very nicely produced and has been a big hit with framers. It will be nice to see other educators adopt as well.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  15. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Paul, I just saw your YouTube video about big boxes, the color wheel one. Very funny. Nicely done man.

    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  16. Grey Owl

    Grey Owl SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I don't think there is a profitable market for professionally produced educational videos for framing.

    I think that most framers that are trying to produce educational information are probably making less than $1.00 per hour for their efforts. Most are doing it to help support the education of our wonderful framing industry and not for a return on their investment.

    For example, when you see the wonderful educational classes at WCAF that are NOT trying to sell something, think about how much time went into developing the class. Once the class is defined, how much time is involved in getting supplies, getting everything to the WCAF, conducting the class, cleaning up afterward and shipping everything home. Speaker fees don't come close to covering their expense.

    Lots of time and materials are needed to produce quality education. And when you add the expense for professionally produced videos, the return is even less.
  17. graysalchemy

    graysalchemy CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Well done Jim, someone who obviously reads the market. I mentioned this a few years ago either on here or facebook and got a very short sharp shrift from some educators. Almost as if they didn't want to embrace technology and change. This seems to me to be endemic in our industry, but it should be upto educators to help the industry change, which made me wonder were this negativity towards change actually stems from;);)
    FramerInTraining likes this.
  18. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I forgot about that. There were actually two parodies poking fun at the "Always on Sale" big box stores. Glad you enjoyed it, they're about ten years old.
    FramerInTraining likes this.
  19. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I have the highest respect for both Jim & Mo and I can understand why they believe video education is the future, they are the producers. Sorry but I will again say, me being an old guy, video education is not what the producers are claiming. There is no immediate correction for problems that may come along so then you end up with bad habits that are hard to correct, there is no hands on instructions, & there is no Q & A sessions. No, I for 1 am not a fan of online training even though I have used it at times. I would much rather have the face to face education with a video to fall back on if a problem arises.
  20. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Thanks Joe. you are very kind. The feeling is very mutual.

    Ha! Yeah, I am just a bit biased. :)
  21. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Joe, I'm not sure what you think the producers are claiming. As far as I know, nobody is claiming that online education would be better than face-to-face, interactive, classroom education. But I guess we agree that online education is better than nothing.

    A few classes are still offered at distributor Open House events, usually presented by manufacturers' sales people, but framing classes presented by framers are almost gone, outside of the WCAF Expo/National Conference/PPFA Convention in Las Vegas in January. See you there?
  22. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    That is why a video class is so important. You can also playback a portion so that you can catch that one word that you missed that turns on the light in your brain [the I got it now moment].

    Joe, and all the others in my age range, you are never too old to learn new tricks.
    FramerInTraining likes this.
  23. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Yes, I do agree that online education training is better than nothing, I was definitely not saying that it isn't useful, I was saying that it isn't what most people crack it up to be. I know that you and Mo and some other teachers actual teach something or will be teaching online and with video and the information is good. The problem with online and video is that you have to know enough to be able to filter out the good instructions versus the bad and if you don't know something how do you know it is bad? I go online at times to get tips but I do try to filter out the bad information.

    Personally my favorite is face-to-face with video/online backup but like you said, face-to-face classes are harder to come by. If it gets so that I have to use online or video training I will.

    Hopefully, I will be going to Vegas this year but that is still a toss up because my daughter is suppose to be having my first grand child:) about the time of the convention - I will miss the convention long before I miss my first grandchild's birth.:rolleyes:

    And I agree but I still like the face-to-face class with video backup. And yes, I do exactly what you do. Still my main point is if you don't know a technique and it is improperly taught on video how do you know if it is good or bad? I see online instructions all time that I know is wrong but I do know the technique so I can filter it. How do you expect a person that doesn't know much about framing or about a certain technique to be able to filter out the improper way of doing something - that's were the bad habits arise.
  24. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Because there is so much incorrect info out there, an approved video list is needed. This might be a list created by an industry organization or distributor.

    Joe, are you able to assist in meeting the challenge of starting a list?
  25. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Apparently your main concern is the lack of vetting for online education. Your concern certainly is valid; bad information can be harmful. Just the same, framers have a long history of experimenting and forming their bad habits with no educational exposure at all, which may be the genesis of some online videos made by ill-informed/uneducated framers promoting bad information. Not sure which is worse...

    Congratulations on your coming grandchild!
  26. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Yes, creation of an "approved video list" would be helpful. However, it would be an ongoing process; every new video would have to be reviewed and graded. PPFA might be the best organization for the purpose. Their Education Committee already is accustomed to reviewing traditional framing classes an publications.

    A distributor or manufacturer might want to recommend videos they deem worthy, but their vetting process probably would not be as organized or valid as that of a neutral organization, such as PPFA.

    Any vetting process would have to be neutral in order to be useful. Suppliers may be the primary sponsors of videos in order to keep costs down. Surely that would expand the selection of videos and improve availability, but at the same time, it could create conflicts of interest. The vetting agency would need to be cautious about distinguishing instructional value from a sales pitch, IMO.
    Rick Granick and Joe B like this.
  27. Joe B

    Joe B SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I would be happy to start a list but who would be liable for any legal action that could be taken because of me saying an educational videos is bad? Could I even be held liable for negative remarks I may say publicly about a video/YouTube training? I'm sure that no matter who makes a negative remark the producer could be harmed because they may be marketing him/herself or the product. Secondly, I don't really feel qualified...I'm just a baby in the industry compared to so many others and I know I make mistakes and have bad habits that need to change. That is why I'm a sponge when it comes to education, I try to learn as much as I can from the industry leaders because they are much more knowledgeable than me and it is much easier for me to learn in the classroom face-to-face than on a video or you tube.
  28. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Probably no more than a movie critic.
  29. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I lean toward Joe's point of view more than others.
    I for one would be completely uninterested in taking online classes.

    I am trying to do a bunch of short "how to" videos, iPad based, just quick short videos, that I will put on the NEPPFA.com website accessible to Members Only.
    But, that's about all I'm interested in at this time.

    I really don't see enough of a market to make this even a break even undertaking.
    Unless you can convince some vendor to fund a video as a marketing activity, I just don't see it happening?!
    Wouldn't mind being proved wrong, though.
  30. westman 2

    westman 2 Grumbler

    i think that if the list was of recommended videos rather than approved their would be minimal liability , or certify them like a michals framer.

    george strange
    Paul Cascio likes this.
  31. David Waldmann

    David Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    We also should remember that there are three primary methods of learning, and each person has these traits in differing proportions. They are:

    • Listening
    • Watching
    • Doing
    Almost everyone will learn better one way than another. And almost everyone will learn better by combining as many methods as possible.
  32. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    What i find with any educational videos with framing or otherwise i am usually you looking for an answer to a question. I know many of the framers who watch any how to videos i make for our i-FRAMER software are the same. So videos that a short a 1-2 minute are likely to get watched all the way through, but anything longer then 5 minutes, most will watch until they get their answer or forward to where they want to be. I can see this in the analytics.

    I don't think $1000's need to be spent in creating them. If the instructor has a good reputation and videos are clear, easy to hear, and important parts are close up. Then that would satisfy most people. Break down a video into 10,20 or how many there needs to be short concise videos. Straight to the point, "this is how to". Create a page of text why and why not, or do and do not's. We are all busy, including the educators. 1-2 minutes videos can be made and editor in 10 minutes.
    Joe B likes this.
  33. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Cliff, why are you completely uninterested? Any particular reason?
  34. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I find interaction is when I learn. For most things I need to understand the "why" as well as the "how." I find that this almost always is part of questions.
    With very little exceptions, I find myself mentally going, "but, but, but" while I'm watching videos. Very unsatisfying and frustrating.
    If they are free, then I might watch them as part of a larger study. (ie, read a book, go to a class, watch a video or two), but I would not pay for them.
    FramerInTraining and Joe B like this.
  35. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Although our school has produced three very popular DVDs, most people believe that when it comes to learning trade craft, for picture framing and other similar skills, hands-on learning via live instruction is the way to go. Learning from even the professional quality video that we've produced, or even the best of books, still leaves an inevitable large gap in the learning curve. It's an inherent weakness of the medium's passive nature.

    Live instruction, especially immersive small group, active participation, instructor-lead learning simply can't be equaled by any passive or self-directed methods. Hands-on learning is also the fastest method of learning because it involves all the senses, and also provides immediate feedback, plus immediate and constructive error correction.

    Video has its place, such as in reinforcement, or for business topics, but many videos are amateurish, and perhaps even sleep inducing. Ask yourself this question: Did you learn to drive a car only by reading a book, or watching a video? Of course not, you needed time behind the wheel. Without that active learning, few of us would have learned how to drive. At our 3-day professional framing boot camps, students are behind the wheel 70-75% of the time. They don't just watch, and they don't just hear.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  36. FramerCat

    FramerCat SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I know this is something that the educators don’t really want to hear. In fact I’ve been shouted down by them before, but I thought I’d give my perspective again. Keep in mind that it doesn’t make any difference in my life whether this project succeeds or fails so it is just a perspective that you can consider or not.

    I, like many other framers, have been soaking up all of the information that we can for many years. We have done all of the comparisons to see what is good information and what is bad information. We also carefully budget so that we are not spending money needlessly or unwisely. So the idea of paying for information that is not new or informative is frustrating to say the least. For example, Jim Miller’s video about UV filtration was awesome. I really enjoyed it, but it was not new information to me. I am a bit of a science nerd so I already knew everything that was mentioned in the video. If I had paid for it I would have enjoyed it but felt a little ripped off and I would be even less likely to pay for another. I don’t use my frame shop budget to entertain myself or socialize. I need that money to work for my business. Paying for videos sight unseen is a no-go for my shop. This might be the case for a lot of other shops as well.

    If the funding can come from another source, as several people have discussed here, so that it is essentially free to the framers; that seems like the better route. I don’t know the feasibility of that so I won’t argue those points.

    i-FRAMER and Joe B like this.
  37. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Ed, Jim's video is supposed to be run on a loop on a screen in the shop. It is a consumer facing video. I have posted it on my page and people see to like it. If you like, I can share here. I'd be happy to pay $20 for a video that will last a lifetime like Jim's.

    As for outer source funding, I feel and of course I be persuaded to change my mind, that once an outside party getst to pay for the vidoes, they get to tell the producer what to say and not to say. Then the video becomes baised specially in such a small industry like ours.
    shayla likes this.
  38. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I have been paying for online courses for more than a good part of this decade. I have a pro subscription to Lynda.com and have paid for a ton of classes on Udemy. I never felt they were a waste of money.

    In fact, seeing how you would not want to pay for online courses, makes me feel better. I have an advantage on you (finally) by learning something by paying for it that you would like for free.

    Look at some of these things for a $250 a year of unlimited learning:


  39. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    But Mo, just figure out who knows and call them. I can find anything I want for free. Why pay? Classes become worth it, for the face-to-face accidental valuable information as much as the indented information. Frankly, I often learn more "unintended" things than class info.
    i-FRAMER likes this.
  40. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    I've called you before when I wanted to know things and knew you were the expert in. I have called many others as well. They and you always take my calls and are very cordial. I would imagine that won't be the case if you got 100's of calls from everybody everyday.

    I also like the physical classes for the face-to-face interactions and the "accidental valuable information" you mentioned. I also think there's a hole to fill that online can help fill.

    Anyway, those are my opinions, and I am of course biased as I produce online videos for picture framers, so ..... there is that! :)
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  41. Cliff Wilson

    Cliff Wilson SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I get it. There are also people who are afraid to pick up the phone, or email. I get it.
    I'm just not interested personally.
    I think online videos is the weakest learning technique. Certainly for me.
  42. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Not in my world. It takes longer than that to create one drawing or format/transfer one pertinent photograph. And in most videos, there would be a few of those things. Assuming all elements of the production are at your fingertips, how fast can you distill 30 minutes of recorded takes & re-takes and place the images properly into a 2 minute finished video? I couldn't do it in less than a few hours - and that's if everything goes perfectly. But then, I'm just framer, not movie producer.
    FramerInTraining likes this.
  43. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Yes, my experience is exactly like yours Jim. Nothing ever takes me ten minutes.

    Jim Miller likes this.
  44. JFeig

    JFeig SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Talking with customers and or writing up a sale also takes a lot of time............
    Jim Miller likes this.
  45. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    My point was there does not need to be professionally developed videos. Most people are looking for answers, if you can get it into a 1-2 minute video length, then it shouldn't take an hour to edit. Even the basic video editing software allows you to seperate voice and video, cut and insert, annotate etc. When i make my videos, i cut out the pauses while i stopped to think about the next thing. Or i do the next part, stop go back and re do all while the video is going and edit out the bits i don't want. So sure, i might end up doing 5-10 minutes of videoing, but only spend as long as it takes to watch and and the few minutes to cut out the bits i don't need. As i mentioned, i am just providing answers to questions, people don't care about the quality so much as long as they get what they are looking for. Most of the videos i do are from direct questions, so usually done in one take and uploaded for the framer to see how its done. I think if you spend an hour or more to edit and produce 1-2 minute video, then you are wasting your time, and you should outsource the editing. you could probably use 3x or 4 x rule. a 10 minute video could take 30-40 minutes to edit. But unless you are going for an oscar, i don't see the value.
  46. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    "...nor a magician."
    ;) Rick
    Jim Miller likes this.
  47. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Can't you just make a quick and cheap video? :)

    Grey Owl and Jim Miller like this.
  48. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    DVieau2 and i-FRAMER like this.
  49. FramerInTraining

    FramerInTraining MGF, Master Grumble Framer

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  50. i-FRAMER

    i-FRAMER MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Awesome video. Concise and to the point. The use of frames is ideal as it allows viewers to pause and take it in more. This is exactly what i was referring to, in shorter more concise videos. I could see this being 1 part of a more overall subject matter such as artwork coverings. Ie. other videos may be on the type of each glass like Truvue, Groglass, acrylic etc. But if it was all combined into 1 long video, it would not have the same affect. We are all a little bit concentration and time poor nowadays. And with quick an easy access to information, this is the ideal kind of informative video we look for. Well done Mo and Jim.
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