What are the most common design mistakes?

Paul Cascio

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I just asked this question to Matt, a new Grumbler, but I'm working on a project for a class and would really like to hear opinions from everyone.


I realize design is somewhat subjective, but since we all transform into "framing critics" when we visit other shops and galleries, I'll ask,"What do you see as common design (not technical) mistakes." These could be re-occuring mistakes, or just really flagrant (pronounced "ugly") ones.

Thanks. I look forward to your repsonses.
 
My pet peeve, and I believe worst design mistake is having mat widths too small. Secondly I would say having the mat width and frame width the exact same size. There are others but I'll let others have a go at it.
 
The first thing that comes to my mind is color choice of mats. I tend to be more critical of my own choices. After the mats are cut and the package fitted, I stand back and tell myself "mmmmmm.......maybe this would have looked better" even though the customer usually goes "WOW" when they see it done.

I find myself when sitting in waiting rooms or in office buildings looking at the framed art work and asking why the framer chose those colors, would this color or that color look better. Maybe I would have gone with another scheme all together.

I guess the next thing would be frame choice with the same scenerios as above.


(Paul, only 45 more days.....)
 
I agree w/Lise, my number one pet peeve would be mats way to small for the artwork.

Second, would be too fancy a frame and mats that make the artwork disappear. (Granted, some artwork NEEDS to disappear)

On a personal note, I detest the old style non-glare glass that a few customers still demand.

Janet
 
Hairdressers and picture framers. Can you think of two groups that are more critical of other's work than we? (Who did your hair? EEEWW)

Okay, I don't hear that much, but you know what I'm saying

Personally, I don't care much for wide white mats, but a lot of folks will swear by them

But, since I am a "seller" of framing, I think the biggest "mistake" I see our newer designers make is to not listen to the client. Rarely, and I mean rarely, do clients ask for really bad designs/colors. The rest (and I think 90% come out pretty good) are truly colloborative efforts where listening is critical

Life is full of "design" elements where "experts" panned them horribly only to be enjoyed/admired by the overwhelming majority. Two great examples are the VietNam memorial in D.C. and the Vittorio Emmanuel Monument in Rome

For me, the biggest mistake is not being a good listener to what the client really wants

We took one of Nona's class on Design (What a great/fun class) and one the things I really enjoyed was how many people would do the same image so differently. Most were okay, some very good and some very not so. But, every "designer" thought they had a "killer" design. Like Nona would say "you may like that design, you'd be wrong, but you make like it". It is what happens when we inject what we want

Paul, is that what you are asking?
 
Second, would be too fancy a frame and mats that make the artwork disappear. (Granted, some artwork NEEDS to disappear)
Janet

Paul Frederick says "The artwork is jealous. Do not make the artwork jealous!" Most customers seem to understand that analogy pretty well.

Sometimes they just want that particular frame because they really like it, even though it has no connection to the art, and I tell them "Then let's put a mirror in it, and the frame will become the art!"

Occasionally, that will turn one framing order into two!
 
Frames that are either too busy or too plain for the art (not enhance enough / overkill over-enhance syndrome).

Frames that are too small for a certain piece. (too big is also a no-no, but it is rare compared to the too small syndrome).

Mat borders that are either too huge or too small.

Mat or frame colors that do nothing to the art.

Too many / too few mats; Some art may benefit from say, triple mats, others just need one simple mat, even none.

Using mats (x number of them) when one simple, elegant French mat would do.

Not using a liner, when one would do wonders to prevent the art colors from bleeding too much into the art.
 
  • 2" mat in a 2" frame
  • white mat / black frame
  • flat "board" frames.... require NO design concept or skill (out sell all other frames 3-1) :vomit:
  • not understanding frame designs... "ooh, this is a nice Gaudy Gold"
  • Not letting the artwork have some "breathing room" (wider mats please)
  • Not understanding that the #1 job of a frame is to stop the outside world as it prepares the eye for the unique universe of the artwork.

I could finish writing you sylibus... but then it would be my class not yours. But if you are going to bash design.... please don't duplicate Nona's lecture or David Lantrips lecture....

IF you are going to talk about bad design, show pictures.. don't just say, "I have a degree so I know what is bad and you don't". Sorry Nona, but you field goaled the cheerleaders on that one. I and others, don't want to see your notes. Keep your notes to yourself, and show up pictures of what you are talking about. We are "visual people in a visual industry of applied art" not "note readers". IMHO
 
Hairdressers and picture framers. Can you think of two groups that are more critical of other's work than we? (Who did your hair? EEEWW)

...Paul, is that what you are asking?

Yes Bob. In fact, all of the responses are very interesting. I'm just trying to learn what it is that we, as framers, consider good design, and what we consider to be taboo.

I warn students that design is the longest learning curve, but that good design plays a major role in your long term success. I think customers try us for any number of reasons - advertising, referrals, proximity, etc. They come back as a result of our design skills.
 


  • I could finish writing you sylibus... but then it would be my class not yours. But if you are going to bash design.... please don't duplicate Nona's lecture or David Lantrips lecture....

    IF you are going to talk about bad design, show pictures.. don't just say, "I have a degree so I know what is bad and you don't". Sorry Nona, but you field goaled the cheerleaders on that one. I and others, don't want to see your notes. Keep your notes to yourself, and show up pictures of what you are talking about. We are "visual people in a visual industry of applied art" not "note readers". IMHO



  • Baer, most of your posts are clear, but I'm not sure what you're saying in this one. Please translate for those of us who weren't at these classes!
 
Simply put Jana, if you are going to talk about "bad design", then show pictures of bad design and then TALK about it, and explain why it's bad design.

One of the most powerful tools to come out of the computer is the Power Point Presentation. It is also one of the most abused and missused.
In the words of Guy Kawasaki and his incredable Key Note speech last year in Orlando.. "the 10-20-32 Rule".
  • 10 slides
  • 20 minutes of talk
  • 32 point type
Never (in a key note) go over 10 slides unless the eleventh is a humorous recap that makes the speaches point and is very memorable.
Never talk for longer than 20 minutes, because 95% of the time you lost them at 15 minutes and at longer than 20 they start dropping like flys in a vacuume.
If you are going to have words on your slides, use 32point so it limits what you type...... afterall, thats why its called a key note SPEACH.

As for David, well he has a great little class called Mythconceptions... it's his. He owns it. Anyone else doing it would be plagerism. And if you get a chance to take it... don't miss it. Don't forget to bring you tube of Silicon.
 
My two pet peeves are:

1) The thin black frame/white mat combo for photography, especially black-and-white photography. To me, that's just indicative of a lack of imagination. A silver frame will really bring out the grey tones in a black/white photograph, and show much more of the subtleties. And a colored mat can be used to evoke colors of objects in a black/white photo -- for example, a pale green suede mat to indicate the grass in a landscape. When I see a black and white photograph framed with a white mat and a skinny black frame, I think of those generic packages from the 1970s and 1980s -- you know, the soup can with black and white packaging that just read "SOUP."

2) A frame that is too skinny for the artwork. This is especially the case with modern and abstract art. Customers always say "I don't want the frame to overwhelm the artwork," and I have to bite my tongue to keep from responding, "well, you might consider not buying wimpy artwork anymore." The truth is, many of these abstract and modern pieces have really bold lines and colors, and are exploding with energy -- they need a stronger, wider frame. Sure, the frame can overwhelm the artwork, but too often it's the artwork that overwhelms the frame. It's all about balance and proportion.
 
Paul Frederick says "The artwork is jealous. Do not make the artwork jealous!" Most customers seem to understand that analogy pretty well.

Sometimes they just want that particular frame because they really like it, even though it has no connection to the art, and I tell them "Then let's put a mirror in it, and the frame will become the art!"

Occasionally, that will turn one framing order into two!

I love it! Val, I'll have to keep your technique in mind when a customer falls in love with a frame but it just isn't right for the art.

As far as Baer's postings, I think he may be referring to Nona's speech over lunch at the PPFA convention. The title was something like, "Bad Design: Would you know it if you saw it?". But there were no pictures of bad designs in the presentation. Nona: you've got lots of examples of good frame design in your other class presentations. How about putting together some examples of bad designs to compare/contrast the good and the bad?

In Nona's defense, she does have some good examples of bad mat color selections in her book, Color and Design for the Picture Framer. Presenting the bad options first really drives home the point for when she later shows a more suitable color choice at the end of a section. It would be great if there were more pictures of complete (ie mat/frame/fillet) bad designs too. Same compare/contrast approach, so when you finally get to the "right" design you'd really see why it works.
 
This thread is better than I hoped for

I'm mildly surprised at the diversity in the repsonses so far. There are posts that make you think, "I would never do that." There are others that make you wonder why you haven't already thought of it.

I appreciate the time each of you has taken to provide such detailed answers. Even Baer's, although I have no idea what it means to, "field goal a cheerleader." But it does sound like it might be fun, if only I were 30 years younger, and of course mcuh better looking.
 
I think it has been said a few times but differently.

I agree that doing too much can be a negative , just as doing too little or picking poor complimentary colors. But isn't the question WHY do you do those things, and how do you avoid them?

IMHO the biggest flaw is interjecting what we as framers ca do best and calling it "WHAT IS BEST SUITED TO THE ART AND CUTOMER."

Many of us have a pet skill or taste and will Marshall all our salesmanship and knowledge ( "Even the DEVIL can quote Scripture to his own advantage.") to
convince the Client OUR choice is just what they needed and wanted.

Sometimes I think we even are convinceing ourselves.I have seen one Framer sell nothing but simple wide mats maybe with a Filet and call it MUSEEM style framing ,when really it is because they didn't like to cut usual mats or LISTEN to customers and Improvise. I also know some who are so eager to show off their skills they load up the work with all sorts of frills.( KISS)

If we listen to the client and suggest what can be done in a few ways ( elaborate and Distinguished ) and they choose and we use all our skills to ENHANCE the art even when we use things like Carving and Painted panels and don't BS them with some bogus title ( isn't that one of the main ways "MYTHCONCEPTIONS" get started?), I think we will come up with a design that is appropriate and beautiful while tasteful.

I also agree that in competitions when the same print is used they can look completely different as the design changes and THAT IS GOOD THING.

At the WYES ART AUCTION framing competitions I chair I always tell popular choice balloters Difference in framing design is a great way to fit a great art work into different surroundings . All that is needed is to listen to where the Client wants the work to fit and what their TASTE is like and match those things to our best skills and knowledge ,whatever it requires ) fancy or Classical,but call a spade a spade and don't run down what we can't do or don't like.

BUDDY
 
Baer... Are you having a good time this weekend? I hope so...
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.
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I'm sorry, I tried more than once. Maybe Monday you can go over that one again for me. Thanks man.......
 
Sorry for those that don't get the "Field Goaling a Cheerleader".....

The idea of a Field Goal is to kick the bloody thing down the middle of the field and through the up-rights of the Goal posts...

The Cheerleaders are lined up along the SIDE of a football field...

In order to "Field Goal a Cheerleader" you would have to not only kick the ball sideways, but away from the Goal Post which is where you intended to go. In other words, about 120 degrees away from your intend goal.

The rest, never mind.. I guess it's my own pet peeve about power point talks.

The Key Note at Fridays lunch, was a great example: 8 slides, 17 minutes, and 32 point type.... and he never once read what was on the slide.
 
Baer...ummm

Oh yes, that's exactly what we all thought you meant.

You might want to stay away from sports analogies in the future. :D
 
Bad Design? I am going to reinforce Bob's comment about pleasing the customer (I hope?) by saying there are NO bad designs.

There ARE however, BAD objectives. What? Yes, bad objectives or goals in the design process. One of the things I ask the customer is "What are you trying to achieve?," or "What do you want to "see" in the image?"

In most cases, colors and styles can be selected to draw attention to a particular "focal point" in the image. ( This may or may NOT be the focal point the artist intended.) This is usually something in the image that has meaning to the customer, or provides a decorating element to the location the customer will be hanging the art.

If you select complementary (in both the color and pleasing sense) to these "customer intended focal points," you can help the customer achieve their goals.

That said, the thing I dislike personally, is when the frame is selected to match the decor in the room, and doesn't go with the art well. It's still not "bad," I just don't like it!
 
My pet peeve:

Customers that want the SAME frame on every piece of art in their livingroom

Are they after the "hotel lobby" look?

In these situations I like to have on hand photos of before and after wall shots so they can really see the difference complimentary frames can make.

Seeing is believing! Plus IF really helps seal the deal~
 
Hairdressers and picture framers. Can you think of two groups that are more critical of other's work than we? (Who did your hair? EEEWW)
(snip)
But, since I am a "seller" of framing, I think the biggest "mistake" I see our newer designers make is to not listen to the client. Rarely, and I mean rarely, do clients ask for really bad designs/colors. The rest (and I think 90% come out pretty good) are truly colloborative efforts where listening is critical
(snip)
For me, the biggest mistake is not being a good listener to what the client really wants

Bob, I agree and disagree. I worked for a time for a a very successful seller of framing. In sharing her approach with me she also talked about hairdressers. She said to me, "If you went to a hairdresser and said 'I'd like a pixie cut and dye it blonde' and he did it without question it would look horrible, you'd pay him any never go back. If he talked you out of it and you left feeling better about how you look than ever before you'd become a loyal customer AND send all your friends to him."

So yes, absolutely listen to what they want. But dig deeper and find out WHY they want it. Who knows the story about cutting the end off the ham...? Does the customer want that combination because that's how the artist displayed them at the art fair booth? Because a red frame would "really POP" in that room? Because that's what her mom had?

I'm certainly not saying that customer's ideas aren't valid, but most often they aren't formed with as much information as we have.

To answer Paul's original question...to me mats that are too narrow, and any color that overwhelms the art are the worst design mistakes. You know the ones where the art isn't jealous...it's frightened.
 
Hairdressers and picture framers. Can you think of two groups that are more critical of other's work than we? (Who did your hair? EEEWW)

Okay, I don't hear that much, but you know what I'm saying

But, since I am a "seller" of framing, I think the biggest "mistake" I see our newer designers make is to not listen to the client. Rarely, and I mean rarely, do clients ask for really bad designs/colors. The rest (and I think 90% come out pretty good) are truly colloborative efforts where listening is critical

For me, the biggest mistake is not being a good listener to what the client really wants

Bob, do you have enough hair to go to a hair dresser?

I agree with your statement about listening to the client. I had a client at my shop in SF that liked using darker tone matting on all their work. It didn't look bad but it wouldn't be what I would have typicaly suggested. Every time I did a design for them, everyone in the shop would be super critical of the design and almost refuse to do the work. Alas, every time the client picked up their framed art they raved about how great it looked. In the end it is going to be hanging in their home, not mine or one of the other framers. What's the point of designing something you like when your client doesn't?
 
I agree that we should give customers what they want -- if they know what they want. Like Meghan, I find that customers often have not a clue about design, and expect the benefit of our expertise.

I also agree that we should avoid telling customers what they want. If this seems like a contradiction to the above comment, the distinction is that when a customer has clear ideas about their frame designs, we need to do no more than verify their confidence in those ideas.
 
To answer Paul's original question...to me mats that are too narrow, and any color that overwhelms the art are the worst design mistakes. You know the ones where the art isn't jealous...it's frightened.

Good one, Meghan! May I add that to my design arsenal?
 
..."If you went to a hairdresser and said 'I'd like a pixie cut and dye it blonde' and he did it without question it would look horrible, you'd pay him any never go back. If he talked you out of it and you left feeling better about how you look than ever before you'd become a loyal customer AND send all your friends to him."

So yes, absolutely listen to what they want. But dig deeper and find out WHY they want it.....

I agree completely with Meghan's point, as well as Jim's extension of it. I like to offer suggestions by saying something like, "Well, you said your goal is to emphasize (design element), and I've found in my experience that it's often more effectively done by (my proposed approach). This is a result of listening to the customer's statements but respectfully offering your experienced advice. Ultimately, I will sell them what they want because it is they who will see it every day, not me. But that doesn't mean I can't try to achieve the scenario with which Meghan began her post. Usually through the process, we get to what they really want.

:cool: Rick
 
Who knows the story about cutting the end off the ham...?

Oooh! One of my favorites, but I too have a bigger pan now. Agree on the narrow mats.

Baer, Kawasaki's presentation is available on the web if you search for it.

The 32 point limitation is not just to limit the amount on the slide, it has to do with the visual abilities of the audience. Older people can't read any smaller type.

Kawasaki also said that you can modify that rule by taking the age of the oldest person in the room, dividing by two, and using that point size. So 32 point type assumes a 64 year old in the audience, and you might get away with 10 point type if you are talking to twenty-year-olds.
 
One very common design blunder has to do with being in a design rut.

All too often I see framing solutions expressed in a monotonous fashion; 3.5" double paper/rag mat, one inch wide frame on everything, or even the ubiquitous wide white mat and skinny black frame on photography. "Too safe" is how I would criticize those solutions. And too often they can be outright inappropriate: one of my design pet peeves is paper mats on textiles and needlework. "Fabric on fabric" is one of my mantras.

The flip side of this is "Too-Too" which seems to be a reaction to the above: that is, using color indiscriminately on black and white photography, using color for the sake of color or using wide mats without regard for overall proportion.

This leads into a related flaw: framers unfamiliar with the wealth of design options. Why don't more of us know about fabric-wrapping mats, liners, fillets and bevels, paper-wrapping mats and bevels, different options for shadow box lining, frames cut sideways as shadowbox extensions, altering finishes on frames, french mats, acrylic boxes, finished/closed corner frames, floater frames, etc?

It IS important to read your customers' minds, but it is also important to guide them, maybe OPEN their minds a bit to different possibilities. Express to them with words and excellent framed examples that you are the go-to person for great ideas in framing.

End of lecture.

Edie the nosefullofsawdust goddess
 
Well I finally responded in my thread and then saw this one! :D

So I'm copying my post to here though I know it repeats some of the same sentiments mentioned.

Easily the most common mistake I've seen over the last few years was letting customer's talk the framer into tiny mat margins. I got so sick of <2 inch margins when I worked at Michaels. I'm glad to have Integrated Framer at my disposal to help with that. It's no longer impossible to explain to the customer that abstract "breathing room" between frame and art.

If I look at design as color/texture etc then the most common mistake I've seen is when I hear a framer say "mat the art and frame the room." I have seen some pretty bad combinations when framing the room. If you can't frame the piece completely for the art and have it fit the room, I think you need a different piece of art or a different room. Or you get a less desirable comprimise.

By no means is that a perfect solution/system. You'll eventually get a customer with a primary colored piece and they tell you they don't want red, blue, yellow, black or white for the framing. Oh yeah and no neutrals (true story). Then I don't know what you're framing, but it sure isn't the art!

Not the most common but my biggest peeve (being a painter) is matted canvases. It just...feels wrong somehow.
 
Not the most common but my biggest peeve (being a painter) is matted canvases. It just...feels wrong somehow.

I'm just curious as how you like to frame canvases? Do you use liners or just put the canvas right in a frame? I think there are some paintings that really need something between them and the frame; they almost look naked without that something extra.
 
Coming from another perspective

Since I frame for a contemporary art gallery and several collectors (one who has over 3000 pieces), I frame to sell art or so it is protected for archival storage until needed.
I must to be sure that my framing keeps the eye on the art. For me, the frame is there to direct the eye to the work, enhance the piece, enclose the space of interest and to protect the work. I think I'm in a different ballgame than most of you.
I rarely get the opportunity to confer with the consumer. Though, at times, I do have to study historical framing and work forward. Say I have a collection of early 1900 German etchings... I have to research the traditional framing of the period and area. I decide if I play is straight or do I modify and slightly update. Can it be stored without being damaged? Etc.

So knowing my framing perspective...

The things I see that get my goat are:
1. Though you ask for design blunders not technical issues, how does one get past ..Lack of craftsmanship
2. Matting and moulding chosen for itself and not for the piece being framed, there is no connection, not a coheisive combination
3. Framing that is "cute" on a piece that deserves better. ( "cute" - The most hated word of Tommy Lee Jones.)


Thanks for the question. It is great to read all the ideas out there. Alice
 
Eeeewwww... ROBO! A french mat on a german??? :eek: That is just so wrong.

Pet peeve #473 "Not knowing who Michael Schumacher is."

Pet peeve #474 "Not knowing if it's possible to be doing Warp 9... in the rain." [afterall, I thought the Enterprise "E" was only able to do Warp 6.3.... beam me outta hear Scotty.
 
Golly, even I know who Michael Schumacher is. What girl can resist a guy in a red Ferrari? Yowza!

Once again trying to get back to the design question - Often I'll suggest mouldings with wide panels on paintings where a liner would be good, but there seems to be resistence based on the "that's like 2 frames, that'll cost too much" theory.
 
....
In most cases, colors and styles can be selected to draw attention to a particular "focal point" in the image. ( This may or may NOT be the focal point the artist intended.) This is usually something in the image that has meaning to the customer, or provides a decorating element to the location the customer will be hanging the art.....


I totally agree with this, Cliff. I don't enjoy art because of the prestige of the artist. I enjoy it because...well, because I like it. I don't care if anyone else does or not. It's kinda like music. There are lots of songs out there that I love because they say something to me. The songs may have entirely
different meanings to the songwriter(s). I have often had songs "ruined" when I found out what they "really" mean.

I think art and framing should be personal. I always ask for input from my customers. I give them a design based on that input. But I also give them at LEAST one other alternative that may be nothing like what they would have imagined. And sometimes they like it ;-)
 
Since I frame for a contemporary art gallery and several collectors (one who has over 3000 pieces), I frame to sell art or so it is protected for archival storage until needed.
I must to be sure that my framing keeps the eye on the art. For me, the frame is there to direct the eye to the work, enhance the piece, enclose the space of interest and to protect the work. I think I'm in a different ballgame than most of you.
I rarely get the opportunity to confer with the consumer. Though, at times, I do have to study historical framing and work forward. Say I have a collection of early 1900 German etchings... I have to research the traditional framing of the period and area. I decide if I play is straight or do I modify and slightly update. Can it be stored without being damaged? Etc.

So knowing my framing perspective...

The things I see that get my goat are:
1. Though you ask for design blunders not technical issues, how does one get past ..Lack of craftsmanship
2. Matting and moulding chosen for itself and not for the piece being framed, there is no connection, not a coheisive combination
3. Framing that is "cute" on a piece that deserves better. ( "cute" - The most hated word of Tommy Lee Jones.)


Thanks for the question. It is great to read all the ideas out there. Alice

Alice, I have a question for you. One of my pet peeves is the gallery-wrap, and more generally, canvases that are just hung on a wall without a frame. This seems especially prevalent in the area of contemporary art, and since you work in the field, I'm curious as to your take on it. How do you deal with artists, galleries and purchasers that just want to hang the canvas on the wall, no frame?
 
This is a very good topic. Thanks Paul for starting it!

I have to say the two biggest design blunders that I notice whether I did it, or did it at the customer's request or see it done elsewhere are inapproprite mat widths (too small in most cases) and poor color selections.

I have several customers that never want to see more than 1 - 1 1/2" mats and to my eye they just look terrible.

Color choices are so subjective. I guarantee my work 100% where the color choices are concerned and I play the major role in the selection - UNLESS - big "unless" - the customer insists on a particular color - then I do not guarantee their choice.

The next topic could be about the most common moulding selection mistakes - oooooooo - I've made more than my fair share of those!! And I am not talking the visual appearance but the functional aspect.

Roz
 
I keep thinking about Bob Carter's statement about listening to what the customer wants. I agree, and sometimes it's uncomfortable.

I have one customer who continually brings in work with mat widths as narrow as 1/2 inch. Initially, we discussed why a wider mat would be better and as a photographer, she says she understands that, but she wants what she wants and that's it. She brings other framing to me to do as well, and used to take it to "another shop" but they continually argued with her about that narrow mat, and then they finally refused to do it, so she brings all her work to my shop now, because I "don't argue with her anymore". What's the big deal?

That "other framer" let their ego lose some potentially good business, as the skinny-mat lady has sent me a lot of referrals from family and friends. (she's the only one who wants skinny mats, thank goodness)
 
We can't be all things to all people But

Val you have made a valid point about why even when the customer wants something we dislike the ultimate choice should be theirs. And why if we master that principal we may benefit form so doing.

But it is equally as important to mention that you said,"we discussed why a wider mat would be better and as a photographer, she says she understands that, but she wants what she wants and that's it. " It seems you took the time effort and trouble to explain why the larger mat might be a better choice and she acknowledged she understood but choose not to agree.

You showed your knowledge ability and willingness to do what she wanted and much more but I can see no reason that being done and your ability to do what she wants being doable you shouldn't take the work. Nor do I think the PPFA, FACTS or any other right think framer would/should either. Maybe the other Framer is too busy or has some other source of income.
BUDDY
 
Val, you won her over because you are so accommodating. ;-)
:popc: Rick
It always amuses me when people ask for those skinny mats because their "space is so limited". I always picture them living in a tiny little hovel inside a mousehole, where adding another 1/2" of mat would just force those frame edges right out to the corners of the room.
 
She wants those skinny mats because she is building a photo portfolio box and wants them matted to fit the box she has builit. (I have yet to see it, but she knows what she wants). When she actually does framing, she goes with a wider mat (2" or more) but we had to get around the portfolio box first. I don't agree, but then, it's really none of my business, is it? She appreciates that and I don't get frustrated arguing with her. In fact, when she walks through the door, I always say "Oh, here comes the Skinny-Mat Lady!" and she replies "I'm not skinny!" and we have a good laugh.
 
I have customers that insist on skinny mats, some that insist on non-glare. (I only like the non-glare stuff on certain photographs and portraits instead of artwork....but that is just me). My take on it is this....they may not look pleasing to our "trained" eyes, but at LEAST they are using a mat. I have some customers who won't pay a few extra bucks for spacers on a portrait they spen $60 bucks for.
 
Re: Mat widths

After reading several posts, I'm not sure if some of you are doing this or not, but why would you ask your customer how wide to make the mats?

I would strongly advise against this.

Mat width is not a customer decision unless they choose to make it so. You are the expert. I recommend simply telling them the mats widths will be "professionally correct and proportionate to the size of the picture." If they have asked, or seem interested, I may add, "In this case, that mean approximately xx inches."

If they want to deviate from that, they will tell you, and at that point it is their decision. Telling them you will make the mats so they are "professionally correct" is usually all that is necessary to avoid further discussion.

Customers have the right to make that call, but by no means should they be asked to make it, as they are simply not qualified. What they are qualified to do is choose colors, and also to decide which form of payment to use. The more decisions you aks them to make, the more likely you are to lose a sale as a result of confusion/indecision. Additionally, you are less likely to end up with design proportions that you feel are correct and apropriate.

You dentist doesn't ask you how deep to drill, but he does let you choose which tooth, and of course how to pay.

Just my opinion, but I think it will save you a lot of lost sales.
 
Interesting reading. Much is subjective but one that tops my list thats been mentioned several times is mat & frame the same width or other elements that are repetetive. tThat just seems to draw the eye & it's a rare rare case that that would work. The other side of the design coin that hasn't been discussed much is the technical side. Like a frame not deep or large enough to physicaly hold the work, barnwood on a rembrandt or art in contact with the glazing.
 
I'm not sure if some of you are doing this or not

Definately a no on this one.
My reference was to people coming in with a preconceived idea of what mats should look like. I'll set the corner sample down at say the 4" mark and they'll grab it, pull it in and say "I like my mats so small you can't see 'em!"

Never would I ask a customer to place their own mats. That's like saying, "please pick out your frame order and tell me when you want to pay."

:p
 
Pail C:

Well, this thread has gone from "Design Mistakes" to "what mat width a customer thinks is right".

What many were trying to convey is what we think or deem is a mistake when we see one (or multiples in a single design).

In most cases when a customer insists on a certain mat width it is either price-related (in their minds) or due to space constraints ("I want this to be so small - with triple mats - so it will fit between Aunt Wilhelmina's picture and Uncle Billy Bob's portrait...")
 
Geez, I corrupted my own thread.
 
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