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What are you worth?

What's an acceptable income, before taxes?


  • Total voters
    61

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
This question is more about how we as framers' perceive our value compared to other professions. Be honest. If you had to survive on your frame shop alone, how much do you feel is an acceptable income for one shop? Give your answer in net profit. (before self-empoyment Taxes)

The question is applicable to anyone who is interested in this business, but it needs to be answered as if you are, or would like to be the owner.

http://taxguide.completetax.com/text/Q15_3100.asp?L=1

From website above:

Net Profit, Loss, and Self-Employment Tax

Once you have added up all your gross business income, and you've dug up all your deductible business expenses for the year, you can calculate your net business income by subtracting your expenses from your income. Hopefully, you still have some income left over after expenses are deducted! This amount is your net profit for tax purposes.

For sole proprietors, the net profit calculation is made on the bottom of the front page of your Schedule C or on Line 3 of your C-EZ. If you have more than one Schedule C, the results from each one are computed separately. The results from any and all Schedule Cs you have are totaled up and carried over to your individual income tax return (Form 1040, Line 12), where they will become part of your adjusted gross income (AGI). If you are filing jointly with your spouse, the net income from any Schedule Cs filed by your spouse is also included.

There are two more important issues to deal with in conjunction with computing your net profit for the year:

· Self-employment taxes - for sole proprietors, your net business income is the amount on which you must pay self-employment taxes. So, your net business profit or loss is also carried over to Line 2 of Schedule SE, which is used to compute your self-employment (SECA) tax. If your business is a partnership, LLC, or corporation, you must follow somewhat different rules.

· Net operating losses - owning a business is full of surprises, both good and bad. In some years you may find that your expenses exceed your gross business income, which means that you have a loss for the year. You may be able to deduct this loss against any other income you or your spouse may have, or carried over to other years in which you have more income, provided you meet certain requirements.
 

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
A spouse with a second income.
A framer with a second job.
Someone who has a different job and works part-time in their home because they think they can't afford to jump in with both feet.
Someone who is thinking about the business, runs the numbers, and thinks that It should be easy to make a good living at framing.
 

Framing Goddess

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Hey lessa,
Clarify this for me...
are you asking about the owner's salary or above and beyond that?
just wondering...
edie
 

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Good question. As usual, I did not think everything through. I own my business and usually work alone, so, that's how I look at the world.

The question is applicable to anyone who is interested in this business, but it needs to be answered as if you are, or would like to be the owner.

This may be enlightening to employees, to find out that most frame shop owners are not doing
much better than they, and may confirm what most of us know already, that we don’t value what we do, as much as we should, for the amount of work and sacrifice that it takes to run a business.

OWNER SALARY ONLY
 

evergreen

Grumbler
I voted giving gross profits... that's profits before taxes. Net is after.

Interesting results. I have just ended my first year as a framer. I don't know how most of the people I meet who are in framing make it! So much is "perceived value" by the customer and it amazes me how many customers stumble through my door and don't have a clue what goes into custom framing therefore would like to pay about 50 bucks to frame something. Previously I'd been in sales and marketing. And I made a ton more than I am now!!!
But the freedom of owning my own business, the tax write-offs, the trips I can take... at least that's what all my friends who aren't in framing think! I believe a lot of how we preceive our trade worth to be is based on the public. I wish there was more of an appreciation of what we do. I love it though and I wouldn't go back to the "corporate" world for anything. I thank God though that my husband works so we can afford the 'luxury' of my business!
 

jframe

<span style="color: red"><b><i>Charter Member</i><
"The question is applicable to anyone who is interested in this business, but it needs to be answered as if you are, or would like to be the owner."

Less when you started this poll your question was just too vague. You need to start another poll and ditch this one. I'm going to vote so I can see the answers but it's not going to mean anything. If you want to know what employees opinion then ask employees what they think the boss makes. Ask them what the store takes in per year etc. Then do a separate poll for owners, same questions. Then post the results of both.
 

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
http://taxguide.completetax.com/text/Q15_3100.asp?L=1

From website above:

Net Profit, Loss, and Self-Employment Tax

Once you have added up all your gross business income, and you've dug up all your deductible business expenses for the year, you can calculate your net business income by subtracting your expenses from your income. Hopefully, you still have some income left over after expenses are deducted! This amount is your net profit for tax purposes.

For sole proprietors, the net profit calculation is made on the bottom of the front page of your Schedule C or on Line 3 of your C-EZ. If you have more than one Schedule C, the results from each one are computed separately. The results from any and all Schedule Cs you have are totaled up and carried over to your individual income tax return (Form 1040, Line 12), where they will become part of your adjusted gross income (AGI). If you are filing jointly with your spouse, the net income from any Schedule Cs filed by your spouse is also included.

There are two more important issues to deal with in conjunction with computing your net profit for the year:

· Self-employment taxes - for sole proprietors, your net business income is the amount on which you must pay self-employment taxes. So, your net business profit or loss is also carried over to Line 2 of Schedule SE, which is used to compute your self-employment (SECA) tax. If your business is a partnership, LLC, or corporation, you must follow somewhat different rules.

· Net operating losses - owning a business is full of surprises, both good and bad. In some years you may find that your expenses exceed your gross business income, which means that you have a loss for the year. You may be able to deduct this loss against any other income you or your spouse may have, or carried over to other years in which you have more income, provided you meet certain requirements.
 

B. Newman

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Originally posted by lessafinger:
If you had to survive on your frame shop alone, how much do you feel is an acceptable income for one shop?
I voted based on what gross income I would need to live (reasonably) comfortably without any other income. (I think before taxes is considered gross.)

As for Jo's statement: If you want to know what employees opinion then ask employees what they think the boss makes. Ask them what the store takes in per year etc. Then do a separate poll for owners, same questions. Then post the results of both.

We discussed this briefly some time back when I asked if anyone had heard about Jack Stack's book, "The Great Game of Business"? I have it now, and it's a very interesting book on an "open management" style of business, that worked for(actually saved) one corporation.

However (as most often happens) the thread went off on a tangent of some employees saying that it would only be an excuse for the boss to whine about how bad business is. And some owners said the employees would never understand.

For it to work, it has to be a completely open discourse. The employee HAS to know the whole story. You're right Jo, everyone needs to know both sides of the issue.

Betty
 

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
If you feel you have voted in error, please explain without divulging the amount you voted, So that participants can appropriately adjust the results.

If the error is to great, I will start again.
 

B. Newman

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I voted with the amount that would be on my 1040, line 34 - adjusted gross income - before any standard (or itemized as the case may be) deductions are taken out. This is the amount that we would need to make without any other income available.

The original question was If you had to survive on your frame shop alone, how much do you feel is an acceptable income for one shop?

However, is this what we are worth as the poll asked? Is worth and income the same? Should it be?

If it is the same, where is the striving to be better?

Betty
 

Less

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Oh, Betty, you’re getting to philosophical for
me.
I voted with the amount that would be on my 1040, line 34 - adjusted gross income - before any standard (or itemized as the case may be) deductions are taken out. This is the amount that we would need to make without any other income available.
I think that's ok Betty. That should be your net profit! :eek:

Think Bob is laughing about now?

Dear Jo & Betty:

With this poll, I don't care what employees think their bosses make.

I apparently did not make it clear enough, that the vote needs to be in net profit (before personal taxes) for one owner only. That is important.

I think anyone who is or would like to own a frame shop can vote. The truth is that any Grumbler can vote, and the polls need to be designed that way to get any hope of an accurate result.

I remember running numbers before I went into business. Although, my numbers were not far off, what I did not anticipate was how long it takes to build enough volume to create a comfortable living.

I am not necessarily interested in what frame shop owners are actually making. If you know, and you are happy with that figure, then that will be your answer. The point of this poll again, is the perception of the people who are interested or are currently involved in the business.

If I give too many details and ask too many questions, they will skew the intended results.
If you don’t understand the point of this poll, that’s ok. I think it will become clear, and be discussed.

If too many voters did not vote in terms of one owner net profit, then a new poll will have to be started. Either way, this will be a good exercise! Unless of course you are an EXPERT already!

For now, let’s keep it going!

If I'm an idiot, well I'll let someone else do that poll
 

Velcro

Grumbler in Training
Great Question! I'm more motivated by the top percentage!

(Cute Cats! Your spotted one looks like my 'Velcro kitty'. )
 
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