What CMC to buy for under $20,000

I've been thinking of buying a new Wizard and I have just seen an advertised price of 11500UKpounds which is around US$21500.
Not much over $20000 and maybe you get them cheaper over there.

George
 
Congratulations on your decision and good luck with the research.

There are 7 machines, that I am aware of, under 20k.

The US market is dominated by two companies:
Wizard $12,950 (model 8000) or $17,950 (model 8500)
Fletcher $12,900 (model 150), and 2 other models over 20k. These are actually Valiani machines from Italy.

If you click the link in my tag line, you'll find a comparison list that shows all the product options, including foreign models. There's also a comparison list for POS software products.

You may want to see such a product before making a decision at a local shop or through someone in your PPFA chapter. The Atlanta trade show is just around the corner, too, and there are bound to be promos. You'll probably see about 6 brands on display in Atlanta.

In addition to price, some other considerations are the cost of blades, availability of parts and tech support in the event of an emergency, cost of maintenance plan after the first year expires, and the quality/functionality of the included software. Most will mail you a free demo so you can evaluate their design software.

Happy searching!

Mike

PS: We have a CMC, POS, and techie forum as well. Searches in that forum may yield some good info, from previous discussions.
 
If I were buying a CMC today, it would be the Fletcher/Valiani MatPro 150, which sells for about $13,000.

But I'm very pleased with the Fletcher F-6100 that's still hummin' along in my back room, so I'll wait.
 
Jim--
pease elucidate on the whys' of the 150 as opposed any of the other models....we can NEVER get toooo much input when making a costly decision such as this


thanks from all
 
NORML:

I'd strongly suggest that you try to get to a trade show; i.e. Atlanta like Mike Labbe mentioned is soon. In the meantime, look at those that other's around you have and see them in use. That way, you have an idea of what to look for when discussing the various models at the trade show - and what questions to ask.

We love our Wizard and the tech support that comes with it. But I have no idea how the Fletcher or Eclipse compares (for instance) because I haven't seen them. That's the very reason you should hit the trade show and exhaust your options. It's a hunk-a-money; invest wisely.
 
Jim--
pease elucidate on the whys' of the 150 as opposed any of the other models....we can NEVER get toooo much input when making a costly decision such as this
Yes please!

I am seriously thinking of buying one.
I'm told they are slow but how slow and is speed really an issue for a small Custom Framing business.
 
Another suggestion if you are going to a trade show to see a piece of equipment. Call the manufacturer in advance and talk to a sales person who will actually be at the show you plan on attending. Make an appointmant for time to see them at the show. This will allow you some one on one time with them so that you are not vying for their attention along with a half dozen or so other people.
 
I was impressed with the valliani (sp) when I saw it in Atlanta. The price is quite nice too. If I ever get quit renting and buy, that one will be in the top two that I buy.
 
First, my advice is no better than that of anyone else who has been to the trade shows and watched the demos.

Second, I have nothing unfavorable to say about the other machines I have looked at, Wizard, Eclipse, and Gunnar. All of them are good & serviceable. Each model has its advantages.

Third, if you are in the market to buy a CMC, get thee to a trade show where you can see demonstrations of them all, and ask a lot of questions. Make your own choice, based on your own observations. Don't take anything you read here as gospel.

If I were buying (or leasing) today, I would choose the Fletcher/Valiani MatPro 150 for these reasons:

6. The supplier. I am very pleased with my Fletcher F-6100 CMC and Fletcher's support of it. It still hums along just like the day it was new. I feel confident that Fletcher would stand behind the Valiani CMC's they sell, just as they have stood behind all the other Fletcher tools and machines in my shop for all these years.

5. The manufacturer. Valiani machines are well proven in the European market. They are not unknown or new or experimental. They are proven to be workhorses at every production level, from entry level to the highest production. Their top-of-the-line model is even fun to watch.

4. The pedigree. The MatPro 150 is their entry-level machine, designed with technology similar to their high-capacity production machines, and built with the same quality. Valiani knows an awful lot about this kind of equipment.

3. The software. It is adaptable and offers plenty of versatility for unique cutting designs, but it is also quite user-friendly for those quick & simple mat cutting jobs.

2. The price. MatPro 150 is priced around $13,000. I have yet to see any new CMC priced better, let alone a machine of better quality.

1. The precision. MatPro 150 will consistently cut a 1/4" diameter hole, which looks something like a round V-groove. Amazing precision, which pays off when you want to cut shapes like small text.
 
Jim, you forgot:

0. The compensation. (Jim consults for Fletcher-Terry, so of course who else would he recommend?)
:D

Anywho, I usually tell people to also look at the software that runs the machine, as that can make a huge difference. But then again, I'm biased.. :cool:
 
The Fletcher/Valiani cuts very small radii as Jim said. It doees this by cutting at a steeper angle than say the Wizard.

If looking today (I own a Wizard) I would be trying the Valiani and the Wizard.

I like the wider bevel from the Wizard. I think it looks "classier." But, I like the smaller cuts the steeper angle allows. The smaller cuts enables a smaller font cutout.

I'm not actually sure which way I'd go. But, I have nothing but good to say about my Wiz.
 
Thanks for all the advise.
Question: Can either of the two - Fletcher or Wizard cut 4 - 16x20's out of a matboard that is 33 x 41. Cut the hole and the mat size of 16 x 20?
 
Norml,
I know the Wizard can (up to 40X60) and I'm sure the Fletcher can as well.

All the advice given is really good advice. I would add that if you check out the machines at a trade show, you not only look at the 'gee wiz' factor while it's cutting, sit down and have the Rep go over the software with you. See if they will let you go from beginning to end cutting a mat.
Remember you WILL be overwhelmed. Take a look at the machines, go away for a day and come back and look at them again. The show specials will most likely last for a few days after the show so you can go home and think about it some more. Come back here (the G) and ask questions. A CMC is a big investment so take your time.

Personally I like the Wizard. Great software upgrades, great support and no surprises (like suddenly going out of business).
 
It looks like you have a tough decision because both these companies aren't going to give you any excuses to use the other guy.

I've been a very happy Wizard user since 1996.

In that time I've paid approximately $28,800 in rental fees and probably a few thousand more in blades. I've saved a good solid $240,000 in labor. I love that machine... carnally.
thumbsup.gif
 
Question:
If the Fletcher needs 3/4" and the wizard needs 1.5" to grip.
I can buy mats at 33 x 41, does that mean I can cut with the fletcher 4 - 16 x 20's out of the board - hole and mat cut by the CMC? I would not have to cut the 16x 20 mat size manually.
 
Originally posted by WizSteve:

0. The compensation. (Jim consults for Fletcher-Terry, so of course who else would he recommend?)
:D
Steve, you misunderstand. To say that I am compensated to recommend any CMC is incorrect for two reasons:

1. There's no recommendation. You will not find any derivation of that word in my post above. On the contrary, the first three paragraphs clearly say that anyone interested in buying a CMC should make their own evaluation. Nobody should buy a particular machine just because somebody else would. The question was asked, so I gave the reasons why I would buy that machine for my shop. If the needs of my business were different, my preference might be different.

2. There's no compensation. Make no mistake about it: nobody pays me to recommend any product. I express my own preferences without obligation to any company. When it is time for me to buy another CMC, I will buy the machine I most want to have in my shop, based on my own evaluation for my business, no matter whose name is on it.

For the record, my business relationship with Wizard had nothing to do with my decision to buy the Integrated Framer visualization software. I bought the program because I wanted it for my shop. When asked why I bought it, I gave the reasons. For expressing that personal preference, the compensation I received from Wizard is exactly the same as I received from Fletcher: zero.
 
Yeah, sorry Jim.. I was thinking later that "compensation" wasn't the right word to use there, as I was pretty sure that you don't get any kick-backs for selling Valianis. Smilies just can't do justice to the level of light-heartiness I was trying to achieve.

What I was really trying to point out (in my own sacastic, smarty-pants kinda of way) that when people make sales pitches on this forum they should probably disclose any business relationships to be on the up-and-up, kinda like how for example CNN will mention they are owned by Time-Warner when they report on anything about them.. I wasn't trying to challenge your street cred.


And while I try to remain neutral in my posts by mainly just answering questions and not pitching, I'm certainly guilty of going over the top on a few occasions. It's just too easy for companies here to turn this into one big marketing tool.
 
Norml. Some 18 months ago, I was in the same situation as you. I need a CMC. Which one?
I asked around and spoke to many framers who own CMC's. It came down to Wizard v Valiani. I visited their premises and saw their machines. I spent many an hour at two trade shows and I was still unsure.
Somebody suggested that at the next trade show, I ask the suppliers to cut my test piece. A 16"x20" triple mount - ATG'd together down the edges. In the left half an oval was cut. In the right half, the usual rectangle. Without removing the mount. Obviously the 'fallout' is removed.
I chose the Valiani MatPro150. I have not regretted the purchase - plus it was a lot cheaper than the Wizard.
The new software is very good and it does everything that I need it to do. I am sure it will do a lot more, if I ever get the time to experiment further.
Good Luck
 
Originally posted by WizSteve:
...It's just too easy for companies here to turn this into one big marketing tool.
Your comments are well taken, Steve. But I don't see The Grumble as a marketing tool exploited by any manufacturer. Indeed, I think many of them are overly sensitive about posting on these forums, for fear of being called opportunistic. Most of them rarely post except in response to something specific.

Grumblers are smart enough to tell the difference between an honest opinion and a sales pitch. Suppliers of everything related to framing are represented here fairly, I believe, by framing practitioners who share their honest opinions -- both favorable and unfavorable. There's no compensation to any framer for that, as far as I know. It's just how an open forum works.

In the interest of full disclosure, yes, I receive compensation from several manufacturers for specific work, on occasion. I should have said above, "Nobody pays me to recommend any product that I do not already use and would recommend anyway." Sponsors pay me to present classes I have developed about specific topics, including sales techniques, framing techniques, and products. In every case, the class sponsors' names are given up front and often. Their names are on the class handouts, as well. There's certainly no secrecy -- it's a promotional opportunity for them.

For example, Tru-Vue occasionally sponsors my classes on 3-dimensional framing, because I recommend using anti-reflection glazings. However, I was doing that long before they began sponsoring the classes.
 
This brings up a couple questions:

I have the manual Fletcher F-2200. Does the Mat Pro cut at the same angle or more steep? (Please define "steeper". Does this mean closer to perpendicular or parallel to the mat surface.)

I'm confused about the software. I had some mats cut by someone who has a Wizard (8 year old model). He told me that he could only pick shapes from the included library. I thought you could create your own freeform designs.

I thought you could import vector format files, such as DXF?

Thanks, John
 
Yes, you can create your own freeform designs on the Wizard. One way would be to place the desired openings on the Editor then merge them together. Another way would be to use the PathTrace software that comes with your MatDesigner software. With the PathTrace, you can import dxf files, import images to draw over, edit designs, or simply start drawing from scratch.
 
John, If I understand your question ... "steeper" means closer to perpendicular to the paper surface. Yielding a smaller bevel.

My VERY UNSCIENTIFIC eyeball says the following;

Wizard 8000
Fletcher 2100
Valiani

They are in that order from "least steep" to "Steepest." I assume the 2200 is similar to the 2100 and I am SURE someone acutally knows the angle they cut on??
 
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