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What do you charge for Larson 457904 per ft

Discussion in 'Picture Framing Business Issues' started by Bob Carter, Apr 3, 2008.

  1. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I think it might be interesting to see what people charge for this Florentina frame

    I am just under $18.00/ft
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  2. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    I'm around $19.
  3. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    $17.60 / ft.
  4. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    $14.00 / ft
  5. smitten

    smitten CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2


    DTWDSM SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    17.67 (My list price) :)
  7. NcFramingChick

    NcFramingChick CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    $14.43 ft
  8. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    Without any consideration a dime less than Tim.
  9. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

  10. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    $17.07 per foot

    Using LifeSaver for pricing. In the past I would have been 3X chop, then felt bad and rounded down! So probably would have been closer to $16 /ft. Doing better taking myself out of the pricing equation!
  11. Ruth

    Ruth MGF, Master Grumble Framer


    I hate odd numbers but there's no way I'm going in and rounding everything up in the software!
  12. Kirstie

    Kirstie PFG, Picture Framing God

    $14. but I just took at look at the moulding. I could get it elsewhere at 1.08 in box quantity and the retail would be much less. Probably around $8. Below $6-8 retail it doesn't matter what it costs because of operating costs.
  13. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Ah, but then the question is, does this look like a $12 (or $14, or $17) moulding? I recently was pricing a job out for someone, and grabbed what looks to me like a cheap veneer moulding....it looks cheap. And it turned out to be more expensive than a much better looking moulding. I'm at home this AM, but I'll provide the details later. I think the cheap-looking moulding, however, was the LJ Ascot line, and the better-looking moulding was in LJ's Kenya line. Anyway, there's a case where it doesn't matter much what I can get it for. I don't feel comfortable charging more than $10/ft for something that looks like a bargain basement frame, and I can't imagine a customer being willing to pay so much for it. I'm going to go in and mark it down manually. Or maybe I'll just pull the line and make room for something nicer.
  14. EllenAtHowards

    EllenAtHowards PFG, Picture Framing God

  15. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    17.46 retail/ft
  16. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Ellen, have you been talking to my customers??? I agree, these frames appeal to them for one reason or another, in the same way some people just love Olive Garden, and others turn up their nose at it. But I think there's also an expectation, even if subconscious, that such mouldings shouldn't cost as much as the really expensive-looking mouldings.
  17. Bill Henry-

    Bill Henry- SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    $16.10 / ft plus a flat $5.30 pass through UPS surcharge since I would have to order this moulding chopped.
  18. Val

    Val PFG, Picture Framing God

  19. RoboFramer

    RoboFramer PFG, Picture Framing God

    and the /
  20. eagle55

    eagle55 True Grumbler

  21. Julia

    Julia CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    Ok, I'll share

    20.00 retail.
  22. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I think we have a pretty good cross spread of pricing. I had several private emails also

    Just for fun, the lowest was Warren in the "True discounters" thread and $24 in the private emails. Consensus appears to be around $17-18

    Now, the question becomes if you were in the $14 range is $20 an "inflated" false price?

    Warren must think we all have "over-inflated" prices

    The other obvious fact is that we all are pretty lazy and allow our POS to establish retail prices from established "retail guidelines"

    This is really interesting stuff to me
  23. Doug Gemmell

    Doug Gemmell SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    We're at $22.

    I feel so bad!

    (but not changing)
  24. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    This is getting too simplistic. If my rent and volume were comparable to somebody who sells at (my price - $10) then I might do it.

    But one cannot compare (as an example) a 1000 ft per day shop whose rent and labor is 80% below mine to my situation, or anybody else's. If one needs and is able to sell the same frame at $30 / ft to make a living, what's wrong with that??

    Is it Inflated?? Only by ignoring the whole situation.
  25. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Paul-That is only true if you decide there is a finite number. As Warren points out in his model, elasticity does play a part

    There are many factors, but your overhead should, theoretically, not change market pricing. If anyone ever learned anything from Sam Walton, that might be an eluctable (I love that word) standard

    Because my rent is 4x as much as yours or my salary 4x as much as yours doesn't entitle me to charge 4x your price (or even 2x)

    I think we get back to Warren's (and Sam's)theorem on efficiency
  26. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    Bob, now put the pricing on a geographical map. Notice how the North Carolina prices are routinely lower? There are geographical disparities
  27. BatesMotel

    BatesMotel MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    $16.47 per foot = chop x 3
    I just got a new price list and haven't updated yet so it my be more in a couple days
  28. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Thanks Paul, I feel much better now.

    After all, we are the picture framing capital of the world.
  29. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    There are a number of variable factors to consider when comparing prices like this.

    Do you charge a separate fitting charge? I bet some don't. We didn't use to but factored it into the price of the moulding per foot. That changed when I put in POS software.

    Do you serve fine wines to your customer or Annie Green Springs ...or maybe just some water in a plastic cup when they almost gag at the price you quote?

    Do you discount??? Or is this the price you actually sell the moulding at?

    Some folks have indicated in other threads that they charge for a whole stick length so that the scrap cost is absorbed.

    ...and on and on and on.

    My retail is $ 16.50 + a flat $ 5.00 for the frame but then I add on a PFD charge at the end of the order of 10% making the actual cost per foot $ 18.15 + $ 5.00.
  30. Kkastorf

    Kkastorf CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    $15.56/foot, eastern MA
  31. WoodWork Lover

    WoodWork Lover Grumbler

    I would think this information would be more relevant if we knew:

    1. What form are you getting the moulding (chop, box, length).
    2. What you paid for it. We have seen that another Grumbler purchased LJ box at half of what another purchased it at.
  32. susang

    susang SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Ms. BatesMotel,

    You (and those who haven't gotten to it yet, either) should update NOW! Maybe this thread was a suble hint from Bob to update. Just think, you'll make more money if you update, and if you don't you lose!

    Ms. BatesMotel will be taking her CPF soon and will need that $$$ to print her new business cards when she passes the exam...Also maybe make the prices a little higher to include the fund for "Next year in Las Vegas?!" :)

  33. PaulSF

    PaulSF PFG, Picture Framing God

    I typically order length, so for almost all my mouldings, prices are based on a length cost. There are some specific exceptions -- my closed corner frames are based on join cost, and there are some "nasty beast" mouldings that I will order chop or join, based on experience.

    This particular moulding isn't one I would even consider buying by the box, unless I was getting an order for 15+ pieces all using that moulding.

    I think Bob is being too dismissive of Paul N's very valid comment about disparities in rents, overhead, etc. It's one thing if my overhead and rent are 3 times higher than a competitor down the street from me, but that isn't the point Paul was making. Rather, he was saying it's not fair to compare pricing for stores in a relatively low-cost area to stores in a high-cost area. Someone's going to be paying alot more per square foot in rent, utilities, etc. in Manhattan than in Rabbit Hash, Kentucky. So you expect prices to be higher in Manhattan.

    If someone walks into a shop on 5th Avenue at 77nd, and thinks that $19/foot for that moulding is too high, then they are welcome to fly or drive down to Winston-Salem and get it for $14/foot. Well, $14/foot plus the cost to fly or drive down to Winston-Salem to get the piece.
  34. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    OK Bob, you started this...your prices fall in the center of the rest...why is it that you assume that we rely on POS software? Couldn't we make the same assumption of your pricing? It seems your outcome proceeded your hypothesis. I would take this as baiting if I didin't know you better.
  35. DTWDSM

    DTWDSM SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    We would buy this length, like Paul I would not buy a box unless I had enough to use most of it quickly.

    I am not going to go through all of the previous posts, especially since there seems to be a couple different threads talking about the same thing, but I believe that Kirstie said that she could get a copy of this particular moulding at 1/2 the price of the Larson moulding. The price customers pay may vary some on boxes, depending on customer volume, but I really doubt that someone is going to buy LJ moulding at 50% off the box price.
  36. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Hey Wally-I actually did want to know. My hypothesis was that we would see prices all over, but like most models, the fat part of the bell curve would yield the exact answer it did

    As to my prices, it was an epiphany moment when I saw the results. We have great buying advantages and we are not using them effectively, even when we discount/promote

    Truth be known, Debi and I are in the process of reviewing those very specific advantages to create a Warren-like promotion. For many years we always enjoyed a "distinct" impression on our pricing. Today, we have become quite lazy and relied upon POS and we have created pricing that is reminescent of that song about "ticky tacky houses all in a row"
  37. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Send them to Concord Paul. Concord.

    We are located just off I85 exit 54 for their shopping convenience.

  38. AWG

    AWG SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    surprisingly, we're a little lower than average at $16.45

  39. John Ranes II CPF GCF

    John Ranes II CPF GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Geography...perception...location...selling skills..and more

    Now Bob,

    I really don't think that "lazy" is the right choice of words. When we priced from 1978-99, we looked at updates, examined the moulding, found where it's new price would be on a graduated scale, and then examined if the profile look like it was "worth that much" or were we "leaving money on the table".

    What we do today, is utilize those same principles using our POS to accelerate the process and we make those changes instantaneously, rather than twice or sometime once a year.


    I'm not sure that North Carolina Vs Arizona Vs Wisconsin Vs Big City Vs Small Town has as much impact on what is and can be charged for any product, as compared to the overall image of your business, your design and selling skills as well as the health of your regional market economy.

    Remember that the frame is simply a component to the total cost for most custom framing jobs, and that there still are many customers who are not comparing Apples to Apples anyway. It's not like comparitive shopping a 36inch flat Screen Sony Model 2008-B.

    BTW - I'm a Pete Seeger fan from way back, Bob

  40. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    By what I'm reading here, I must be leaving money on the table with that profile... but as Jim said, it's only one component of the overall pricing picture.
    :kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
    P.S. Did Pete Seeger write that? I'm more familiar with the Malvina Reynolds version.
    This land was made for you and me.
  41. Fake Zorro

    Fake Zorro In Corner

    If you want to compare pricing that is all over the place read Cabinetmaker Mag. They put out bids with the same specs. for cabinets to cabinetmakers all over the country. The results that come back have ranges like $5,000 for a 2 man shop in NC to $40,000 from a 20 man shop in NYC. These guys have as much if not more competition than we do. This mag gives more in depth biz interviews than any of our framing mags.
  42. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    Thank you!
  43. alaskanframer

    alaskanframer CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2

    I am interested in how one arrives at their pricing mine is based on costs (not just the Moudling but all costs) we are at 17.57.
    Bob why do you feel bad about the old moulding price? I would think your time effort and expenses and quality would justify it. Does your mechanic charge less because he feels bad?
  44. John Ranes II CPF GCF

    John Ranes II CPF GCF SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Pricing and Pete Seeger...

    Rick...you might be. Like one poster on the "fillets" thread wrote how he tended to down-sell in these tighter, more competitive times -- the truth is, only you the owner, know if you are truly leaving money on the table, and even then, it's sometimes a honest guess. :)

    There you go...learned something new. I was more familiar with the Pete Seeger version and even had his LP by the same title, "Little Boxes". But you are indeed correct, written by Malvina Reynolds.

    For those that really enjoy this stuff, or want to know what we're talking about, be sure to watch this Youtube video clip.

  45. Jerry Ervin

    Jerry Ervin PFG, Picture Framing God

    Looks like like we are the Custom Cabinet Capital of the World too.

    Who'd a thunk it?

    There are more cabinet shops in my town than frame shops. I know one that is making some serious bucks.
  46. Fake Zorro

    Fake Zorro In Corner

    Zorro sells it for $10.85. It would be less if I stocked it in box quantities. But to muddy the waters we charge $95.00/hr labor (soon to go to $110.00) and are very efficient. My opinion though is that taking one price out of a total package to compare is madness.
  47. Paul N

    Paul N In Corner

    My thoughts exactly, a few dozen posts back.
  48. ScrapQueen

    ScrapQueen Grumbler in Training

    Long time reader, first time poster here.
    Thought I'd jump in on a fairly easy one...


    Love this site! I'm sure you'll hear more from me.
  49. mrdeck

    mrdeck Grumbler

    I am confussed. Why would your retail be less if you are buying it in a box.
    I understand making a customer "feel special" by giving them a promotional price, but to run a lower retail doesn;t make sence to me. You are the distrubitor at that point. You have carring cost, you have to factor in the true yeild of the moulding , and because it is now a stock item, you may not be designing the pc, with a $30.00 a foot moulding as you may of because you are trying "to use the box".
  50. moglet

    moglet PFG, Picture Framing God

    Not being familiar with the American market, I am curious about the price bracket in which the moulding picked for the price comparisons on this thread would fall. Is it indicative of a typical, average-priced moulding, or higher-than-average priced moulding for your market?
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