John, I may have misrepresented my feelings, I think that new people definately need to join the PPFA, there are many resources there that they woud not have access to if they were not a member. There are things that even a veteran framer such as yourself have access to that you would not if you were not a member. The PPFA offers many tools for people in our industry of all degrees of experience, my point was that i think that if someone is newer in our industry, it is pretty much a no brainer to join. Jim, The employee was not mistaken unless, as I suspect, she represented herself wrongly by saying that she was a CPF. I had my doubts soon after she was hired and the PPFA would not confirm or deny that she was a CPF, only that she had been a member of the PPFA in the past, when I inquired. All I ask is that if any organization is going to "certify" someone, that they can at least verify that the person did pass the test. If they will not verify then what value do those 3 letters after a framer's name really have?