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What is wrong with The Grumble?

Discussion in 'The Grumble' started by JRB, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    The point is, it is an internet forum for professional picture framers and anyone (such as artists, photographers, etc.) who is interested in picture framing as it relates to their own business. Some of the attitudes expressed on here are less than professional and do nothing to add to the discussion. Things are said that probably shouldn't be said in the first place. Instead of piling on and adding fuel to the fire, as happens far too often here, the person making those comments should be given a reminder that this is a professional forum open to all interested in picture framing and not a the place for artist bashing, photographer bashing, etc.

    This is one of the few things I find wrong with the Grumble, that sometimes the standards are too loose on here. This is a good forum but we are alienating people by some of our attitudes; nice people with good ideas and years of experience to share who feel intimidated to post. It shouldn't be a free for all. I realise the job of moderator is a difficult one and they can't be everywhere at once. Perhaps the Grumble has grown to the point were there needs to be more people moderating to keep up with things on here.
  2. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    If the Grumble becomes an over-moderated place then it would no longer be the Grumble. You just have to take the good with the bad, just like any democracy or large family gathering.

    Hey, I can't stand overblown ego's that need constant stroking, so I just do my best to ignore it. Bet you all have one of those sitting around the Thanksgiving dinner table. What are you going to do...it is what it is.

    The moderators do a good job, we don't need more ...we don't need less. If there is a situation that they don't know about, well thats why we have report post buttons.

    grumble, grumble, grumble
  3. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Anne, the comments made by people about artists, photographers and sculptors (mine) was obviously done in jest. There was no ill intent by anyone.

    Did the thread get diverted a bit, as Steph pointed out? Yes, but that happens in online forums all the time. Usually a nudge such as the one Steph provided is all it takes to move it back onto the tracks.
  4. JbNormandog

    JbNormandog SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    Did you take my post seriously?

    I would never make fun of people that walk funny! (probably)

    Now artists and photographers on the other hand are just a bunch of b@$tards!

    LET ME POINT THIS OUT CLEARLY, IT WAS MEANT IN JEST! (didn't think I had to spell that out)

    Do we have a color for humor here? I know sarcasm is green, do we need moderators to help point out a bit of humor?

    I would not change a thing about the Grumble, it is fine and I thank you Bill for doing a great job. (Your not one of those dirty artsy types are you?)

  5. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    On this thread there have been some comments in jest about artists, etc. but as a general rule there have been many comments not in jest that really amount to personal attacks and bashing of certain groups on here.

    Steph, I'm not talking about over moderation but there are times when there doesn't seem to be enough moderation. Not everybody knows about the moderator alert button and there have been times when I've reported stuff that really wasn't appropriate and was a personal attack on someone and nothing was done. This is a recent trend. When I first joined 7 years ago, the moderators did a much better job of watching for flaming posts and deleting them right away. We didn't have a moderator button back then so maybe now they rely on that too much and don't personally check threads to make sure things aren't getting out of hand.

    The people who have contacted me who have taken to lurking or just plain left are not ones with overblown egos, but some of the nicest, most helpful people we had on here at one time, very friendly and helpful. It's because other people weren't nice, either to them or other people they know, and nothing was done about it that they decided to lurk or leave and that's sad. In fact, many of our worst problem posters are actually the ones who have the overblown egos. I would be a shame if they were the only type left because all the nice people had been scared away.
  6. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I will agree on a couple of points; some folks get flamed unneccessarily and the overblown ego's are a plenty. They wouldn't leave anyway because they need strokin'...know what I mean. I wouldn't want them to leave anyway, because once you sift through their obvious insecurities and BS, you can find good contribution as well.

    But I still say the moderators do a good job, but it is also our job to not get overly sensitive about things. I know I have in the past...some I regret, some I don't. ...and sometimes, some folks just need a good kick in the hoo hoo.
  7. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    JbNormandog it has nothing to do with your post. You just joined in the silliness. I'm not one of those dirty arsty types, I take a shower every morning. Actually, I'm not even artsy. I leave all the artsy stuff to my husband, Gary. He's a photographer. I'm more logical than creative.

    Luddite, however, did have a serious concern about artist bashing on the G in general she posted on here and it is something I've noticed over the years too. We aren't talking about any posts made in jest on this thread but ones made in all seriousness on other threads that amount to bashing and really have nothing to do with the question asked.
  8. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Re: bashing artists. I think when I have seen artists bashed it has been due to their "desire" to get the lowest price for framing. Also it has been in response to artists, and photogs, posting and derisely asking why it is soooo expensive to frame. It has been in response to the belittlement of our skills or our professionalism or our education.

    So yes we have "bashed" artists and photogs on this forum. We have also respected artists and photogs. We have also complained about designers who come in and want "the best price" for them. Demanding discounts for themselves and their clients. Why is noone standing up to protect the poor mistreated interior designers?

    Re artists, who here has a set discount for artists? A better discount for volume? After giving an artist a volume discount for getting a show ready for them who has had said artist come in with a single item and had that artist ask why they aren't getting their "usual"; the one time proffered, volume, discount?

    I work with an artist, who I whine about here quite frequently, who insisted on price quotes using acid free uv protection custom sized orders, then comes in with MichaelJoannesWalMart mats, regular glass, asking why I can't beat those prices for my work!

    And on that note who hasn't had a photog come in with a precut mat and a readymade frame and then asked you why you charge $150 for a frame when he was able to get this "perfectly good one" for $30 at WalMartRenysMardensOceanStateJobLots?

    If they can charge their customers for quality work, why are they reluctant to pay for the same? I have discounted rates for them, better when the job is better, but I also have a PIA charge at my beck and call! I rarely use it, but just knowing that the PIA is there really helps! (The Grumble gave me that idea, Thank You Grumblers!)
  9. D_Derbonne

    D_Derbonne PFG, Picture Framing God

    If people are bowing out and telling Anne or anyone else in private about it then shame on them.

    If there are legitimate concerns then they need to speak up.

    I have had hurt feelings from something that has been said once or twice and have also gotten more than a little perturbed.

    I think the moderators do a great job. Don't really remember a time when they did any more moderating...except for a brief period when one of them went a little crazy and was deleting and editing posts everywhere and he was relieved of his powers.

    As Wally said, TG isn't broken! and as Ron has said many times, it isn't a democracy.

    Thank you Framer for giving us this great place to share knowledge and to have fun.
  10. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Bob, complaining about someone being cheap is one thing but when you have an artist or photographer (or regular customer) that doesn't understand the difference, instead of calling them stupid, or worse yet calling all artists or photographers (or customers) stupid, we should view it as a chance to educate them about why what we do costs more. That's what I do on the photography forum I'm on when questions on the cost of framing come up, especially when they think us framers are all a bunch of greedy price gougers out to make quick buck off them.

    It's actually not the ones about them being cheap that bother me so much as the threads on the main Grumble that start (and there have been a few): What is wrong with those photographers? Don't they know any better? Why do they (put labels on their prints, dry mount them on this board, etc.)? Often these complaints are in stronger language than this and stop just short of being insulting.

    I was, for awhile, sending photographers with framing questions here to find answers. But then we started to get a number of threads with this tone to them and I stopped out of embarassment at the less than professional attitude of some of the posts on the main Grumble, especially since they were coming from a forum were some of the things tolerated on here wouldn't be allowed, for good reason. And it isn't an overly moderated forum either. Very few posts are ever deleted or posters banned but they are quicker to delete those that should be and warn when appropriate. The biggest difference is they have more moderators and their moderators are more active on the forum. The overall attitude is more respectful of each other there as a result. We still have some heated debates, but they never go down in flames since personal attacks are dealt with and deleted right away. We also still have fun like we do on the Grumble, but not at each others expense.

    Some of the moderators on the Grumble rarely visit anymore. I've reported posts that took more than a day for a moderator to get back to me on. By then, things could get really out of hand. The response time on the Grumble to complaints used to be allot quicker.
  11. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Anne please remember that they also have to determine what is and what isn't a viable complaint. There is also the flip side they have to deal with as well, if they act on every compaint then someone else may cry free speech. I suspect that the moderators deal with much more than most of us know. Maybe we should appreciate them a bit more.

    If you have sent someone here and they were not received well then that is a shame.

    But lets not over discuss how some are/are not treated. Sometimes we all have to unclench our teeth from topics that have already been discussed enough. If the meat is tough...why keep gnawing on it?
  12. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    When you report a post, it emails only the moderator(s) listed at the bottom of that forum. None of us are moderators in every forum. If you don't receive a response within 24 hours, feel free to visit the live chat room - or email any of us directly.

    Just because we don't respond immediately doesn't mean that we aren't fully aware in less than 5 minutes. The mods are very actively involved, with a light but fair style of moderation.

    When someone reports something that is a subjective or questionable decision, it gets discussed by the team before action is decided. This is what can take some time. If it's an obvious problem, immediate action is taken.

    For every legitimate reported post, there are probably 4 others because someone just doesn't LIKE another person - or because they used a perfectly acceptable word that you might hear on prime time television.

    We try our best to be fair, and to keep the grumble a place where folks can freely talk - WITHOUT overmoderation. We're also volunteers with businesses to run. While I agree that some folks tend to be unnecessarily aggressive, these things will usually take care of themselves.

    If you feel that we're not doing a good job, that's certain something we can discuss. However, if the reigns were tighter - it would be without my participation. Overmoderation is a turn-off, in my personal opinion, and a sure fire way to make any forum fail.

  13. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Thank you for the clarification Mike. For the record, I have rarely reported a post and most times it has been because I noticed something dodgy that was obviously an invasion by a spammer. I can think of only a handful of times in the last 7 years I have reported things. Heck, I don't even report posts bashing photographers since I prefer to defend them myself so everyone can hear the other side of the story. Most of the times in the past I have reported something, it has been dealt with quickly and fairly.

    It's just some of the recent stuff that has gone on here that has made me wonder where the moderators were when members were launching blatant personal attacks on other members just because they didn't agree with them. I don't think deleting flaming posts and personal insults is overmoderation. Not deleting them leaves a very bad impression of us as a group and I have heard from others in our industry that it is hurting the image of the Grumble as an asset to framing.
  14. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

    I agree that a small group can easily give the whole community a black eye.

    The easiest path would be to suspend or remove the bad apples, and get back to serious matters. If that happened, we would also lose a lot of good content; because each of them are good people. The folks causing the problems are long term members.

    Maybe we're too optimistic, but we're hopeful that threads like this will cause folks to do a self evaluation and adjustment.

    We each have a personal responsibility to make this community forum what it is, and make our own positive contributions.


    PS: These are my own opinions, not necessarily those of Bill or the rest of the moderator team.
  15. JRB

    JRB PFG, Picture Framing God

    I think that those who expect The Grumble to be a completely professional forum are actually on the wrong forum. There are more than a few tightly moderated professional picture framing forums that would serve the purpose for them.

    The biggest reason The Grumble is a roaring success is that it is NOT a tightly controlled professional picture framing forum. Many people bring up The Grumble for the entertainment value rather than an in depth explanation of weighty issues such as the correct method of hammering a picture hook in the wall and other important subjects.

    Sure, things can get a little tense from time to time, but that sure beats the heck out of boring. People pay big money to experience tense situations, roller coasters, skydiving, snowboarding upside down, etc. The Grumble gives it to anyone, for free. What a deal.

    My vote, after reading through this thread, goes along with the majority.........leave things as they are.

  16. imaluma

    imaluma SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Firefox keeps telling me grey is misspelled.

    /end hijack
  17. Grey Owl

    Grey Owl SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Re hijack.

    I'm Glad you noticed that. End hijack
  18. imaluma

    imaluma SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    In the bold, I see where this would be an issue. The moderator should answer back with an acknowledgment of the complaint, or at least to explain why hey think the complaint might not be necessary in cases, or to let the complainee know how the issue is being handled and how they should act accordingly. This is part of the moderator's job. Communication.

    Sometimes issues cannot be resolved privately, and people will choose to bow out rather than creating a public issue. But this should not be the moderator's fault if they were keeping up necessary communication. It is sad, but I have never seen a public forum immune to that.
  19. Rick Granick

    Rick Granick SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I would second the comments that Mike and John just made. Everything in life is cyclical, with some times being better than others. I believe a lot of the tension on the Grumble lately reflects conditions in the industry and the market, as well as in the country and the world at large. It seems everyone is uncertain and maybe "waiting for the other shoe to drop". Our tension often spills out onto those closest to us. I think that is what has been happening around here, and is not a fault of the Grumble itself. "This too shall pass" so I say leave the G as it is and things will get better. I've already noticed a degree of improvement.
    :kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
  20. David N Waldmann

    David N Waldmann SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    as was "imaluma" until I right-clicked it and selected "Add to dictionary". Of course, if you use multiple computers you will have to add it to each one...
  21. Bogframe

    Bogframe SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    First of all, we're picture framers; people who work with razor blades and glass. This is not what most of the population would consider a "normal" way of life, so normality should not be expected.
    Second, in every group, it's expected that there will be people who have attitudes that could be perceived as abrasive. We have them, but I won't mention names. Although they may occasionally be aggravating, they certainly liven things up around here.
    Third, By and large, this is an informative, friendly and fun place for us framers. It's well set up, well run and populated by people who are interesting and (mostly) well-informed.
    Let things be, but if I could think of one thing we could all do to keep things nice it would be to think before you type and remember that lots of people are reading this.
  22. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I think overall the moderators do an amazing job and I am grateful for their efforts.

    Quite often someone will say something inflammatory then be chastised by members and then return with their tail between their legs and apologize.

    I absolutely love when this happens. It reminds me of growing up with six siblings and having dinner together where someone throws a little temper tantrum which shocked the other family members. Invariably they were sent to their room to settle down (missing desert!) and then welcomed back into the family.

    It's all part of a growth process.
  23. HB

    HB SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    The risk one takes in using humour is that one may not receive it as humour. That's the way it is on The Grumble as it is in all of life. Satire & humour are risky business. Don't want to take the risk, don't use it. Why should we do things differently here as we do in our daily conversations.

    The beauty of the forum is also its danger! One is afforded room to be bold because of the relative privacy! One also has the advantage of not immediately being aware of the response of others, which might intimidate one to speak their mind. However, these advantages can also work against a poster. Sometimes we are misinterpreted; sometimes we rub someone the wrong way without realizing it. Because we are not face to face, we can't immediately make adjustments, or clarifications!

    The bottom line here is: if you don't want to hurt anyones feelings , don't use humour or sarcasm, and be very clear in presenting your comments!

    I'd really doubt anyone is as mean as they appear to be on The Grumble!
  24. Dave

    Dave SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    But that would take all the fun out of it!

  25. JbNormandog

    JbNormandog SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Point taken but if someone wants a purely framing site to go to, then they can go to hitchhikers or the other one I can't think of. From the little I know of them, they are not quite as popular as the G, I am guessing that could be from the personalities and sense of community here. (The popularity of the other sites is pure speculation on my part because since I've been framing, I have had many framers tell me about the grumble and I only found out about HH through the G)

    I don't think I have ever posted anything here to hurt anyones feelings (if I did it was accidental and the other person can either grow thicker skin, ignore me, or call a moderator). If by my post a few back anyone was offended then they must be offended every day they wake up in the morning.

    What a sad world we would live in if no one used humor in their daily lives.

    If anyone is that easily offended then block the majority of the members on this forum because we all use a little levity now and then.

    Funny, I don't think I am mean on the G, but in person I am a son of a biotch!

  26. khooengtheng

    khooengtheng MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Nothing wrong at all

    I think...The grumble site....is so so interesting!!! This is the circle that long I have looking for! cheers!!!:beer:
  27. surferbill

    surferbill SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    I agree. We are just framing pictures, it's not life or death stuff.

    If grumble posters can't use humor every now and then, they might want to think about getting out of the picture framing business, and becoming an IRS agent. :D
  28. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I like the Grumble's free wheeling nature. I don't want to see it turn into all business and no fun. I quit HH because it was all business and dull. I don't mind humor. It's the personal attacks and the lack of respect for each other that I see on here that bother me.
  29. Indyago

    Indyago CGF, Certified Grumble Framer

    Good One..........

    Good one!:thumbsup:
  30. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I read this exchange this morning on a forum for professional photographers. I thought it summed things up nicely:

    New member in their introduction to the group: "Although I may disagree with some things that are said, please know that I respect your opinion and anything I say is not intended to be argumentative. I think disagreement and discussion is helpful to everyone. I've even been known to change my mind! "

    Reply from long time member:"...a great discussion doesn't mean you both agree but can state your differing opinions in an educational way. We just have to be careful to read and reread them to make sure they say what we want them to say and no one can read anger or sarcasm into them. Ah, the written word....not as easy as voice inflections."
  31. pictureframingpro

    pictureframingpro MGF, Master Grumble Framer

    Sorry I have not read through the whole thread, but it seems that if there are people on here that offend someone else regualarly maybe there should be an ignore feature, where you can put someone on an ignore users list, and the only time you would even see their posts is if it happens to be quoted by someone else. I also have not checked the features to see if there is already one of these features already in place. ;)
  32. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    There is an ignore feature, but I think that it backfires a lot. While I may disagree with someone's politics, or humour I may really value their framing opinions. Which I wouldn't get if I was ignoring their every word.

    Now if I could get a feature that ignores things I dislike, but let's in things I agree with.... Oh wait, that's a conscious! :) Maybe I'll use that and enjoy the grumble as it is.
  33. AnneL

    AnneL SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    There do seem to be alot of people who are unaware of the features available on the Grumble (spellcheck, ignore, etc.) I know there is a FAQ button at the top, but some people may not notice it or not know what to ask to get an answer. Would it be possible to put a new forum at the top of everything or a sticky on the main forum something like"Welcome, please read"? It could have a run down of some of the most commonly used features as well as some reminders on conduct for new members. That might help clear up some of the confusion that occurs.
  34. shayla

    shayla WOW Framer

    I've been thinking about this for the past few days.

    (Well, not all day every day.
    I did stop for lunch....)

    The idea Anne just gave seems to be a really
    good one to me. I just found the Grumble,
    and if there had been a bit more of an
    explanation about how it functions, I wouldn't
    have stumbled around quite so much.

    As for the fiesty dialogue that goes on,
    there are pros and cons, but it's probably best
    left open.

    On one hand, the openly contentious
    spirit and biting sarcasm of some members
    probably turns a lot of interested people off.

    That's a real shame, as in 'shameful'.
    This should be a site where people with questions
    and comments can come and feel welcomed.
    They might see those comments and not even
    post, assuming that they, too, will be attacked.

    On the other hand, maybe this is the only
    place some of these guys feel like they
    can let their hair down. Whether or not it
    is appropriate to be obnoxious in a public
    forum, they obviously feel a need to be
    that way.

    Most likely, the general response of other
    readers will keep the snarks away from the beach
    most of the time. I hope so.

    It really is beyond me, though, why anyone whose
    livelihood is made giving workshops, writing books,
    whatever, would act so contentious in a place like
    this that they might drive away potential customers.
    Being so snotty about issues reveals a serious
    lack of basic relational skills.

    Okay, I'm tired and it's late.
    Time to go to 'warped' and find something funny.
    Bye. :)
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2008
  35. Tom Reigle

    Tom Reigle Guest

    the way it was is the way it is .........

    This ol' forum has been chuggin' along since last century and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that framer sees it as just as it should be!!! If I were the administrator of such a vastly popular website and had thousands and thousands of dedicated people with common work ethics from around the world sharing their ideas and occasionally picking a nosebleed fight in the school yard, I would be danged proud of myself!!!

    No matter what a person does or says or tries to say, you simply cannot please all the people all the time. This has been going on for many years and we see cycles of sarcasm followed by personal attacks of one level or another followed by all the problem solvers trying to modify what has been the norm for so many years but, in the end as has been said so many times, this whole shootin' match belongs to Bill, lock, stock, and barrel, and he can do with it exactly what he wants to. That is quite obvious by the constant flow of maintenance on the site that Bill does. But he changes very little of substance as is his right as owner and custodian of the site.

    I have seen other framing websites and forums start up and go great guns for awhile and then eventually die off for whatever reason but the Grumble has weathered the storm for all these years and is still smellin' like a new rose in my opinion!! If it makes y'all feel better to vent about us smart a$$es (I include myself in that lucky lot as we like to speak our minds and tell it like it is sometimes) and those who feel that they have to prove something by being bigger or better or further traveled or more informed than everyone else, I say have yourself a barn dance with it!! In the end, Bill is gonna do what he sees fit and I, for one, applaud his non-action as much as the action he has taken to keep this forum at the very top of the framing food chain!!

    That takes a mountain of work and patience and I wouldn't slight anything that Bill has done to keep us at the forefront of the framing forum world. I have sat in on framing forums around the world and haven't found one yet that comes remotely close to what we have right here in our own back yard.

    So grump all ya want and complain 'till the cows come home about the Grumpers and the A-holes and all the Complainers if it makes your day more complete, (it just puts all of you in the same boat as them in my opinion!) but I am so glad that we have Bill at the helm to steer the ship the way he has done for these last 10 or so years. It's very difficult for me to find the proper words that convey my thanks to him for the work he has done for this group and the manner in which he stays the course in spite of all the bickering and spin on how we should change this or that. His constant dedication to keeping this forum the family that he started out to have is phenomenal as most people's lives would have driven them to slack off after this many years and pursue other interests letting the forum fall by the wayside.

    This Grumble has a foundation that works if you care to take a good hard look!!! Why try to chip away at a sturdy proven foundation at all??? Be thankful we have such a success story to our credits!!

    I thank you Bill once again!!
  36. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    It is The Picture Framers Grumble
    Not Mr. Bill's School of Etiquette

    To complete the phrase of my first post....post #8 I believe

    ...so don't fix it.
  37. Mike Labbe

    Mike Labbe Member, Former moderator team volunteer

  38. Bogframe

    Bogframe SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

    Come to think about it, there's an emoticon one of my other boards uses that I'd like to see added to ours:
  39. Steph

    Steph SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer

  40. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God


    I think what you are seeing is the evolution we as users of the grumble go through because of the welcome feeling we get being here. At least I know I went through changes due to being here. When I first came on I read for the knowledge imparted here. I really wanted to learn from the people in the field, and to be doing so in an anonymous setting was great! It was a great feeling to know that there were other people struggling with the same issues I was experiencing, and they were willing to freely share what they were going through and what they had learned while doing it. What not to do and what worked, what didn't, etc.

    After having been here for a while I started making friendships, started making opinions about other posters, started sharing in the humour and jokes. Started tiring of the repeated threads, the same ones that brought me here btw! In the beginning I had feared "going up against the big guys", now I dread the BB threads and rehashing "how do we fight them" threads.

    I had been doing the grumble so much that it became "mine". I actually was able to recognize when a couple of people were dealing with personal issues by their postings. It was a good thing because it made me realize how important a part of my business, my life the grumble had become, but it was disconcerting because for all intents and purposes it was still an anonymous part of me. I have not "met" any grumblers in real life, but know a lot about a lot of our personal lives!

    8 months ago I was fed up with the never ending back biting, sniping, hurt feelings that were going on. "The grumble had changed". In actuality it was my expectations of the grumble had changed and I wasn't seeing what I come to expect from other people on the grumble. So I dropped out of circulation. Changed my "home page" and left the grumbling to others.

    The Grumble is still no longer the first place I check when I go online, but I do enjoy coming in almost everyday to see what is going on. The "BB threads" still come up, but no longer bother me, as I know I had issues with the BBs and that others mainly "newbies" and die hard BBHaters still do, and they still need the validation that their business is worth fighting for, as I did and honestly still do need from time to time!

    So what would I honestly change about the Grumble. Seriously, honestly, nothing. Just that when I start to feel "frazzled" with the others are acting I need to check how it makes me feel, and be honest with myself, and get out. Like I intimated early this place went from being a source of info to me, to a place to laugh and share, to a deep personal part of me. From mentor, to friend to family. Can't change family, once born into it you are forever a part of it. Can only change the way your family makes you feel about yourself.

    Of course like any family there are members you love and laugh with, members you fight with and members you may want to ignore, but shouldn't. You learn from all of them.
  41. RParrish

    RParrish PFG, Picture Framing God

    Where's the spell check feature?

    Wow I didn't know there was a style feature, I'd been looking at it in sosumi for years, a little snooping around is a good thing!

    Never mind found everything I need under the "edit options"
  42. Paul Cascio

    Paul Cascio SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    I see that the retail store you are employed by is about to get your first taste of competing with a Michaels Store. If you still have your job a year from now, perhaps you'll use your ameteur psychoanalytical skills to see things differently. Not everyone is a Pollyanna, so get over it. Make some contributions here, then criticize others.
  43. wpfay

    wpfay Angry Badger

    This is exactly the kind of post that undermines your credibility. It seems to me that someone who is dependent on their name and reputation in the framing community to make a living would be a little more circumspect about their choice of words.
    Regardless of your intent this comes across as a personal attack, and a condescending one at that. I know you are frustrated with what you perceive as a lack of interest in your AOSF campaign, but lashing out at people isn't going to help your cause.
    Personally I believe there is an apology in order.
  44. Bob Doyle

    Bob Doyle SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    Paul< WTF???

    This is the kind of comment she is saying limits discourse on this forum! She is saying stop shooting each other down when they disagree with you as it limits discourse, limits growth, and you shoot her down! She never mentioned anyone by name, it was all general!

    Besides the thread is asking for criticisms to make the forum better! New users may have better insights than us old timers that may want things to stay the same. As I write this I realize that I have been saying "leave the Grumble alone" whereas the "newbies" have been coming up with ideas they would like to see here to augment the Grumble.
  45. DVieau2

    DVieau2 PFG, Picture Framing God

    Earlier I suggested that posters be given more time to edit or delete their message.

    This is a good example where extra time might temper the exchanges.

  46. Bob Carter

    Bob Carter SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God

    I hate to make posts like this, but, I'm not crazy about folks that complain about others demeanor. Yet, they make some "not so nice" comments, themselves, about the offender.

    I don't think you have to be a wiz to figure out who Shayla is speaking of, yet, I don't think she owes anyone an apology anymore than her responder

    Punch, counter punch-the way it's always been

    Folks get a little sensitive and it's always the "other guy" that is insensitive, isn't it?

    There are quite a few posters (even moi) that get accused of being a "little" direct

    Give me the straight talk anyday over the Pollyanna pitch
  47. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    It makes him look like an @ss is what it does, Wally.
  48. FramerDave

    FramerDave PFG, Picture Framing God

    But seriously, something that could improve the functionality of the G would be the ability of a thread starter to add key words to make it easier to search in the future.

    For instance, someone with a question about mounting an object with silicone could tag it with silicone, adhesive, object mounting and a later search would find it easily regardless of the thread title or responses.
  49. Jay H

    Jay H PFG, Picture Framing God

    Complaining is alot like sitting in a rocking chair. It does give you something to do but doesn't get you anywhere.
  50. imaluma

    imaluma SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer


    I hate the search feature. I end up swimming through irrelevant threads and posts and wasting time. Then having to start a new thread with the question and being berated for *not* using the search feature.
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